UN political chief criticizes Israel for new settlement plans

[Jay Sata]

The world would be a better place if religion did not exist.

[Jingthing]

The world would be a better place if religion did not exist.

Religion is a factor in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but not the only one. Judaism is a religion but Jews are also a people (ethnicity), and you don't need to be religious to be a Jew.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

Religion is the primary cause of the various conflicts in the Middle East and all based on some sort of scribbling from various people who probably were on a par with Bernie Madoff a couple of thousand years ago.

In my opinion religion is no more than a giant Ponzi scheme but better thought out.

The victims never know they have been conned until they die and then it is too late as there is no coming back.

It is the opium of the masses and gives the poor something to dream about.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not religious at all, but I suspect people would be even more selfish without it and the world would be an even worse place.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[jdinasia]

What amazes me is you admire Israel and the foreign migrants colonising the occupied territories so much but choose to live in Thailand!

The topic of my personal choices in life really does not belong here. On the West Bank settlements issue, you're flaming me (again) putting words and thoughts in my mouth that I never said. I have said many times that expansion of the west bank settlements is not helpful to any potential two state solution peace process (which I still perhaps naively support and think MIGHT still be possible). I do realize there may never be a two state solution ... but I do hope some kind of peaceful resolution can happen that allows Jews and Arabs to live in that region in peace with of course Israel remaining a state with a dominant Jewish character. Not sure of the eventual borders ... I'm not Bill Clinton.

I do disagree and am offended by your Israel demonization rhetoric. I do not buy your "progressive" line that Jews are white foreign invaders in Israel. Again, Jewish people are INDIGENOUS to the region. No, that doesn't mean all Jews in the world must or should live there but it does support the existence of Israel as a state with a dominant Jewish character.

The question of are Jews white is an interesting one. The perception of Jews as white or not changes over time. Obviously Ethiopian and Chinese Jews aren't white, but even not so many decades ago in the U.S. (the second largest current Jewish population in the world) Jews were not classified socially as white. But neither were Irish ... proving such social classifications are complicated.

If you are going to refer to other people as "demonizers" then it seems fair to point out your words and actions.

[Ulysses G.]

Telling him that he can not live where he chooses is not any kind of valid criticism.

[Jingthing]

Telling him that he can not live where he chooses is not any kind of valid criticism.

Indeed it's just shameless trolling.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[jdinasia]

Telling him that he can not live where he chooses is not any kind of valid criticism.

Where was he told where he can or cannot live?

[JDGRUEN]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

[Morch]

Yes, thats an interesting article in the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

Israel seems to be sleep walking into a one state solution if they are not prepared to give up their settlements or at least swap equivalent land for them. But Im sure Netanyahu has a plan..just curious what it is?

What are the options?

1. A unilateral declaration that the wall is Israels new border but connected by roads to various Israeli colonies through a patchwork of Palestinian Bantustans...the Palestinians would simply refuse to accept that. The world would not accept that either, with more countries coming out to recognize Palestine within the 67 borders.

2. The Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman route: Wholesale ethnic cleansing of 4 million Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan, plus any Israeli Arabs who wont swear allegiance to the Jewish State of Israel. The world would definitely not accept that and may result in a serious escalation of the conflict world wide.

3. A sensible 2 state solution based on 67 borders and Barak and Olmerts 2000 and 2008 plans. 100% global and Arab recognition.

One thing I am certain of is that one day maybe decades from now Israelis and Palestinians will be so intertwined through transmigration that we wouldnt be able to tell them apart. They are geographic neighbors for eternity and people eventually intermingle. Thats the way the world evolves.

And this thread if it survives in cyberspace will be pored over with amusement by future students of history.

Your confidence that Netanyahu operates according to some long term plan is baseless. Netanyahu changes his plans, says

one thing then does another, promises anything to anyone. He's a talker, a salesman - not one to take hard decisions.

The two things which seem to matter most for him are personal political survival, and making sure he won't go down in history

as having caused Israel severe damage. The first makes him jump about, the second makes him freeze.

There's no master plan, at least not anything realistic or committed to. Play it by ear, dodge, delay, take a step forward, a step

backward, but whatever you do keep talking. That's Netanyahu. So better not to expect anything new from him, same old.

In addition, Israel is a thoroughly divided country, and that goes for its political system as well. Currently, non of the "options"

you listed will be able to pass the necessary majority votes in parliament.

Netanyahu will just wait and see if Abbas will actually carry out his UN thing. If it's on, well, most previous agreements can be

scrapped (or at least, reviewed), which will give him an excuse to do more of the usual. If Abbas backs down, than things go

back to "normal".

The leaderships of both sides here are not up to the task of solving issues through painful compromises. This conflict is here

to stay for quite some time.

And yes, from a historical point of view, this will probably seem a bit silly and obscure.

[Morch]

Bottom line, Israel is holding on to a not wonderful "status quo" for the time being ... but I doubt there are many people on any side that really believes this current status quo won't be changing sometime in the future. How and when exactly? I have no idea.

I think one of the issues here is that political extremists on both sides are also religious. Religious thinking allows for miracles, if

one just waits long enough and believes.... Becomes a problem when the borderlines between the extreme and the mainstream

get fuzzy.

[Jingthing]

...

The leaderships of both sides here are not up to the task of solving issues through painful compromises. This conflict is here

to stay for quite some time.

...

I think people can bet some serious gelt on the truthiness of that statement!

[Morch]

The settlements breed resentment on the part of the local Palestinians who as I have said before see people displacing them that are not local Israelis.

The woman killed a few days ago was a South African immigrant. She has no more right to be there than stupid kids who leave the UK to fight in Syria with the same consequences.

Hmm...taking this logic a step further - would she have had a right to live in South Africa? I mean....her ancestors came from

somewhere else, right?

Playing this game is rather silly, considering both Jews and Arabs living in the area are mostly not THAT deep rooted.

[Seastallion]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

Yes, your words ring true. The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

It applies to you after your post.

Times change. Thinking evolves. Advances. Society is now global. Global society has, since the Romans, the Germanic tribes, et al that you cited, now formulated rules. Geneva Convention, for example.

The lands are deemed by the world to be occupied, and the world has set rules around occupation. The legal entity "The State of Israel" is breaching those internationally agreed rules.

[Seastallion]

The settlements breed resentment on the part of the local Palestinians who as I have said before see people displacing them that are not local Israelis.

The woman killed a few days ago was a South African immigrant. She has no more right to be there than stupid kids who leave the UK to fight in Syria with the same consequences.

Hmm...taking this logic a step further - would she have had a right to live in South Africa? I mean....her ancestors came from

somewhere else, right?

Playing this game is rather silly, considering both Jews and Arabs living in the area are mostly not THAT deep rooted.

No logic there Morch. How many generations have to be born in a country before you can say you are of that country? We can assume she was born in SA. She may even be 3rd or 4th generation South African. She certainly wasn't born in Palestine or Israel. She was,South African.

I would wager that the number of Palestinian Arabs that are supra 10th generation Palestinian is more than the number of Israeli Jews that can make that claim. I would hazard a guess that 99% of Palestinians are 5th generation or older while the vast majority of Israeli Jews are 3rd or less than 3rd generation Israeli. Vast majority.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Seastallion

[NeverSure]

Religion is the primary cause of the various conflicts in the Middle East and all based on some sort of scribbling from various people who probably were on a par with Bernie Madoff a couple of thousand years ago.

In my opinion religion is no more than a giant Ponzi scheme but better thought out.

The victims never know they have been conned until they die and then it is too late as there is no coming back.

It is the opium of the masses and gives the poor something to dream about.

"Religion is the primary cause of the various conflicts..."

No, individual misuse of Religion is the cause. There are a lot of peaceful and religious people in this world. Don't be a bigot.

[Morch]

The settlements breed resentment on the part of the local Palestinians who as I have said before see people displacing them that are not local Israelis.

The woman killed a few days ago was a South African immigrant. She has no more right to be there than stupid kids who leave the UK to fight in Syria with the same consequences.

Hmm...taking this logic a step further - would she have had a right to live in South Africa? I mean....her ancestors came from

somewhere else, right?

Playing this game is rather silly, considering both Jews and Arabs living in the area are mostly not THAT deep rooted.

No logic there Morch. How many generations have to be born in a country before you can say you are of that country? We can assume she was born in SA. She may even be 3rd or 4th generation South African. She certainly wasn't born in Palestine or Israel. She was,South African.

I would wager that the number of Palestinian Arabs that are supra 10th generation Palestinian is more than the number of Israeli Jews that can make that claim. I would hazard a guess that 99% of Palestinians are 5th generation or older while the vast majority of Israeli Jews are 3rd or less than 3rd generation Israeli. Vast majority.

Sort of the point - setting an arbitrary range on this is pretty ridiculous.

According to this offered policy - immigration services worldwide can be shut down (which reminds me I have the 90 days thing

tomorrow, bah).

It is also interesting how this concept works in relation to the so-called Palestinian Right of Return, when applied to younger generations.

[jdinasia]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

Yes, your words ring true. The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

It applies to you after your post.

Times change. Thinking evolves. Advances. Society is now global. Global society has, since the Romans, the Germanic tribes, et al that you cited, now formulated rules. Geneva Convention, for example.

The lands are deemed by the world to be occupied, and the world has set rules around occupation. The legal entity "The State of Israel" is breaching those internationally agreed rules.

Hear hear!!

[JDGRUEN]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

Yes, your words ring true. The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

It applies to you after your post.

Times change. Thinking evolves. Advances. Society is now global. Global society has, since the Romans, the Germanic tribes, et al that you cited, now formulated rules. Geneva Convention, for example.

The lands are deemed by the world to be occupied, and the world has set rules around occupation. The legal entity "The State of Israel" is breaching those internationally agreed rules.

Everything you mention is just modern day window dressing on what humans do - Geneva, or how about the UN ? None of it matters - people and they nations they live in - just do what they do ... You live in a fantasy that all reason and justice will come about ... according to YOUR wants, desires and plans... It doesn't happen that way... Just as 5000 years ago -- people - groups - nations take and do what they want... Just take a look at what Russia is doing in Crimea and Ukraine... multiply that by dozens and even hundreds of times -- and you want to focus on Israel - a fly spec? There is only one reason for the Arab / Israeli problem -- ISLAMIC HATRED of the JEWS... nothing else.

[NeverSure]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

Yes, your words ring true. The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

It applies to you after your post.

Times change. Thinking evolves. Advances. Society is now global. Global society has, since the Romans, the Germanic tribes, et al that you cited, now formulated rules. Geneva Convention, for example.

The lands are deemed by the world to be occupied, and the world has set rules around occupation. The legal entity "The State of Israel" is breaching those internationally agreed rules.

Would you please add links to your broad statements? Geneva Convention? What does that have to do with ownership of and or spoils of war?

After the Geneva Convention of 1949 several nations planned and prepared to attack Israel in what is called The Six Day War with the intention of annihilating Israel. Israel got the jump on them and defeated all of them in just six days in 1967.

What international law would have protected Israel from that?

Israel captured and held additional land as a response to that for its own security. Now show me the law that says Israel can't do that (when so many Arabs are trying to capture Israel) and if you can find that law, then tell me why Israel should give a shit when Arabs don't respect its boundaries, firing rockets into it.

Where is that written in the Geneva Convention again, please? Somewhere else?

[chuckd]

I seriously doubt if Hezbollah, Hamas or the PLO have signed on to the Geneva Convention.

If they did, they would have to buy uniforms for their soldiers.

[Jay Sata]

The best uniforms and soldiers that could possibly intervene are the UN and a peacekeeping force.

I am sure the Palestinians would be happy with such an option.

[Seastallion]

I seriously doubt if Hezbollah, Hamas or the PLO have signed on to the Geneva Convention.

If they did, they would have to buy uniforms for their soldiers.

Exactly. Which is one of the reasons why it is so important to have Palestine recognised as a state.

If statehood is granted with a condition to ratify all appropriate international codes, treaties and agreements, Palestine in fact would become a better global citizen than Israel (who does not ratify all the Geneva protocols or other treaties).

[jdinasia]

I seriously doubt if Hezbollah, Hamas or the PLO have signed on to the Geneva Convention.

If they did, they would have to buy uniforms for their soldiers.

Exactly. Which is one of the reasons why it is so important to have Palestine recognised as a state.

If statehood is granted with a condition to ratify all appropriate international codes, treaties and agreements, Palestine in fact would become a better global citizen than Israel (who does not ratify all the Geneva protocols or other treaties).

Statehood has been recognized. The State of Palestine is a non-member STATE of the UN.

[dexterm]

Since time immemorial, lands taken in war are held as long as wanted and may never be given back. To say that Israel is occupying lands is a total misnomer - Israel ... There are thousands and thousands of examples in 5000 years of history ... Boundaries of countries and held territories over ancient and even more modern times, have ebbed and flowed. And somehow because Israel has taken and held onto lands taken in defensive wars and taken proactively to create buffer zones between themselves and their constantly attacking enemies -- is supposed to be unusual ... The naivety of some on this thread is amazing in depth and degree.

I suggest - read a world history book - just close your eyes and grab one off a shelf of dozens --- in it you will stories about the Romans, the Germantic tribe migratory invasions over Europe, the Mayan struggles, the origins of the Chinese, the thousand year struggle of the Thais against neighbors and hundreds more - look at the boundary movements just with the Slavic states for example... There are a thousand examples of lands taken and kept -- lands taken and given back - lands taken and divided and given to someone else...

I really do not understand at all this what seems like a total inability to put the Israeli - and local Arab situation in world history perspective ... In proper perspective of thousands of years of war - ebb and flow of boundaries ...

Which in final analysis - actually goes to show - the so called Palestinians are pawns in a big Aram/Muslim chess game -- to annihilate Israel - and they formulate any and all propaganda that they can for a smoke screen ... And they are furious that they keep losing... and that is about all that there is to it.

Historically we also used to throw Christians to the lions, burn witches, make African Americans sit at the back of the bus, and deny women the vote...but most of us have moved on from there.

This is the 21^st century where we have the rule of International Law and the Geneva Convention which states that you cannot occupy and populate land taken in war with your own citizens, and that refugees who flee during conflicts have the right of return afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

Edited November 13, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Yes, thats an interesting article in the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

Israel seems to be sleep walking into a one state solution if they are not prepared to give up their settlements or at least swap equivalent land for them. But Im sure Netanyahu has a plan..just curious what it is?

What are the options?

1. A unilateral declaration that the wall is Israels new border but connected by roads to various Israeli colonies through a patchwork of Palestinian Bantustans...the Palestinians would simply refuse to accept that. The world would not accept that either, with more countries coming out to recognize Palestine within the 67 borders.

2. The Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman route: Wholesale ethnic cleansing of 4 million Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan, plus any Israeli Arabs who wont swear allegiance to the Jewish State of Israel. The world would definitely not accept that and may result in a serious escalation of the conflict world wide.

3. A sensible 2 state solution based on 67 borders and Barak and Olmerts 2000 and 2008 plans. 100% global and Arab recognition.

One thing I am certain of is that one day maybe decades from now Israelis and Palestinians will be so intertwined through transmigration that we wouldnt be able to tell them apart. They are geographic neighbors for eternity and people eventually intermingle. Thats the way the world evolves.

And this thread if it survives in cyberspace will be pored over with amusement by future students of history.

Your confidence that Netanyahu operates according to some long term plan is baseless. Netanyahu changes his plans, says

one thing then does another, promises anything to anyone. He's a talker, a salesman - not one to take hard decisions.

The two things which seem to matter most for him are personal political survival, and making sure he won't go down in history

as having caused Israel severe damage. The first makes him jump about, the second makes him freeze.

There's no master plan, at least not anything realistic or committed to. Play it by ear, dodge, delay, take a step forward, a step

backward, but whatever you do keep talking. That's Netanyahu. So better not to expect anything new from him, same old.

In addition, Israel is a thoroughly divided country, and that goes for its political system as well. Currently, non of the "options"

you listed will be able to pass the necessary majority votes in parliament.

Netanyahu will just wait and see if Abbas will actually carry out his UN thing. If it's on, well, most previous agreements can be

scrapped (or at least, reviewed), which will give him an excuse to do more of the usual. If Abbas backs down, than things go

back to "normal".

The leaderships of both sides here are not up to the task of solving issues through painful compromises. This conflict is here

to stay for quite some time.

And yes, from a historical point of view, this will probably seem a bit silly and obscure.

Thank you for your interesting reply.

It just seems odd to me that Israeli politicians and voters can’t see the elephant in the room...4 million Palestinians under occupation with a patchwork quilt of settlements being built all around them, with no idea what they are going to do about the people they are encircling.

Is this debated in the Israeli media or at election times? I am genuinely curious as to what options are being suggested. I can't believe that Israel does not have a contingency plan or is it really as you say..policy is made just day to day on the fly?

[Seastallion]

Yes, thats an interesting article in the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

Israel seems to be sleep walking into a one state solution if they are not prepared to give up their settlements or at least swap equivalent land for them. But Im sure Netanyahu has a plan..just curious what it is?

What are the options?

1. A unilateral declaration that the wall is Israels new border but connected by roads to various Israeli colonies through a patchwork of Palestinian Bantustans...the Palestinians would simply refuse to accept that. The world would not accept that either, with more countries coming out to recognize Palestine within the 67 borders.

2. The Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman route: Wholesale ethnic cleansing of 4 million Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan, plus any Israeli Arabs who wont swear allegiance to the Jewish State of Israel. The world would definitely not accept that and may result in a serious escalation of the conflict world wide.

3. A sensible 2 state solution based on 67 borders and Barak and Olmerts 2000 and 2008 plans. 100% global and Arab recognition.

One thing I am certain of is that one day maybe decades from now Israelis and Palestinians will be so intertwined through transmigration that we wouldnt be able to tell them apart. They are geographic neighbors for eternity and people eventually intermingle. Thats the way the world evolves.

And this thread if it survives in cyberspace will be pored over with amusement by future students of history.

Your confidence that Netanyahu operates according to some long term plan is baseless. Netanyahu changes his plans, says

one thing then does another, promises anything to anyone. He's a talker, a salesman - not one to take hard decisions.

The two things which seem to matter most for him are personal political survival, and making sure he won't go down in history

as having caused Israel severe damage. The first makes him jump about, the second makes him freeze.

There's no master plan, at least not anything realistic or committed to. Play it by ear, dodge, delay, take a step forward, a step

backward, but whatever you do keep talking. That's Netanyahu. So better not to expect anything new from him, same old.

In addition, Israel is a thoroughly divided country, and that goes for its political system as well. Currently, non of the "options"

you listed will be able to pass the necessary majority votes in parliament.

Netanyahu will just wait and see if Abbas will actually carry out his UN thing. If it's on, well, most previous agreements can be

scrapped (or at least, reviewed), which will give him an excuse to do more of the usual. If Abbas backs down, than things go

back to "normal".

The leaderships of both sides here are not up to the task of solving issues through painful compromises. This conflict is here

to stay for quite some time.

And yes, from a historical point of view, this will probably seem a bit silly and obscure.

Thank you for your interesting reply.

It just seems odd to me that Israeli politicians and voters can’t see the elephant in the room...4 million Palestinians under occupation with a patchwork quilt of settlements being built all around them, with no idea what they are going to do about the people they are encircling.

Is this debated in the Israeli media or at election times? I am genuinely curious as to what options are being suggested. I can't believe that Israel does not have a contingency plan or is it really as you say..policy is made just day to day on the fly?

Albeit Morch's reply was interesting, I think it is only an entertaining idea to think that there is no long term plan. You only have to look at the Likud manifesto in conjunction with Netanyahu's actions to realise that he has a long term plan. Essentially, (and almost verbatim) Likud's call is "from the river to the sea", a chant decried by anti-Palestinians. Ironic, isn't it?

Another interesting aspect of Morch's idea is that if Netanyahu has no long term goal, while (as Israel claims) the Arabs do have a long term goal (of eradicating Israel), it means the Israeli leadership is short sighted and shallow while the Arab leaders are far seeing and have vision. Not a portrayal that Israeli's would embrace, I daresay.

[Ulysses G.]

Another interesting aspect of Morch's idea is that if Netanyahu has no long term goal, while (as Israel claims) the Arabs do have a long term goal (of eradicating Israel), it means the Israeli leadership is short sighted and shallow while the Arab leaders are far seeing and have vision. Not a portrayal that Israeli's would embrace, I daresay.

More like Netanyahu does not think they are rational enough to take seriously, because they have made so many foolish decisions over the last century that have done nothing but hurt their own people.

[Ulysses G.]

This is the 21^st century where we have the rule of International Law and the Geneva Convention which states that you cannot occupy and populate land taken in war with your own citizens, and that refugees who flee during conflicts have the right of return afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

Why do you keep posting links that do not support what you have said or that say the opposite? Do you think that an irrelevant link gives your personal opinions more gravity or that no one is going to check the content?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Ulysses G.