Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Read the story again and check your facts. The UN did not give Israel the right to,encourage people from across the world based on them being of the Jewish faith, to settle in the West Bank on land confiscated from the local population. Despite you constantly trying to defend the actions of Israel you never seem to offer a solution. Do you support the settlers and their ability to construct what has often been described as an apartheid scenario in the occupied territories. If so can I assume you would prefer a one state solution. Or would you prefer two states? You cannot have both however that is what Israel is trying to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) You have no idea "what Israel is trying to achieve" and you have no solution besides a vibrant, successful country committing suicide and letting Islamic terrorists take over. That is not going to happen. Edited November 5, 2014 by Ulysses G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You have no idea "what Israel is trying to achieve" and you have no solution besides a vibrant, successful country committing suicide and letting Islamic terrorists take over. That is not going to happen. I agree ... that is clearly what the obsessive Israel demonizers want ... the end of Israel. Maybe (hopefully not) they'll get their wish someday but it won't be without a big fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I notice both of you fail to answer the question. One state or two? If it is the latter why let the settlers occupy what has been designated part of Palestine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 It is not up to me, but I prefer two with proper safeguards for Israel. There is no Palestine and the Palestinian Arabs have committed to negotiating any borders for a future state with Israel. Until they sign a peace deal, recognize Israel as a Jewish state and live up to their commitments under the Oslo accords, they have no claim to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 So if you support the two state solution can I take it you agree the settlers should not be colonising the West Bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 No you can't. Read what I just wrote. As long as the Palestinian Arabs refuse to make peace and refuse to honor their Oslo commitments, they have no claim to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) If you want to talk of Oslo accord commitments then surely you must agree migrant Jewish settlers from across the world fragmenting the West Bank is not what was agreed or the world wants. The UN and many countries across the globe continue to criticise the Israeli government for encouraging the colonisation of the area designated as Palestinian and recognised by 135 governments as Palestinian. 70% of the UN membership recognise the State of Palestine. I assume you are a supporter of the settlements! Edited November 5, 2014 by Jay Sata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 No you can't. Read what I just wrote. As long as the Palestinian Arabs refuse to make peace and refuse to honor their Oslo commitments, they have no claim to anything. Your words not those of the UN or 135 countries across the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) You know, the settlements are a problem, but if they magically vanished tomorrow, the vast majority of Palestinians would still favor violence against Israel, the vast majority would still be claiming their terrorists are heroes, the vast majority would still support Hamas more than the somewhat less extremist party, which has a clear genocidal intentions against Israel ... and is clear they will never accept the existence of Israel with any borders. So this is bigger and deeper than about the settlements. Two states, living side by side in peace, it's a great dream ... but HOW? To be clear, I put the blame on both sides and don't take seriously people who think it is only about ONE side not behaving well. Edited November 5, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) If you want to talk of Oslo accord commitments then surely you must agree migrant Jewish settlers from across the world fragmenting the West Bank is not what was agreed or the world wants. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Neither the Declaration of Principles of September 13, 1993 nor the Interim Agreement of September 28, 1995 contains any provisions prohibiting or restricting the establishment or expansion of Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. However, the Palestinian Arabs HAVE committed to negotiating any borders for a future state with Israel and they are not living up to that pledge. Edited November 5, 2014 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 The 135 nations that recognise the State of Palestine comprise of over 5.5 billion people, equaling 80 percent of the world's population. I guess they are wrong in your eyes but that is world opinion and the numbers will increase to the point where Israel will have to listen just as South Africa did. These settlements are not made up of ethnic Jewish people from Israel but migrants who have been encouraged to leave their own country for free housing and land in a part of the world where they have no right to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 If you want to talk of Oslo accord commitments then surely you must agree migrant Jewish settlers from across the world fragmenting the West Bank is not what was agreed or the world wants.You really have no idea what you are talking about. Neither the Declaration of Principles of September 13, 1993 nor the Interim Agreement of September 28, 1995 contains any provisions prohibiting or restricting the establishment or expansion of Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. You focus on the religion of those in the settlements ignoring the truth that they are migrants encouraged by Israel to leave their own countries to take over villages and displacing a local community who have been there for generations. That is why world opinion is against these enclaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You mean the hypocrites in the UN? There is nothing they can no besides gnash their teeth and ignore human rights abuses all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seastallion Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You know, the settlements are a problem, but if they magically vanished tomorrow, the vast majority of Palestinians would still favor violence against Israel, the vast majority would still be claiming their terrorists are heroes, the vast majority would still support Hamas more than the somewhat less extremist party, which has a clear genocidal intentions against Israel ... and is clear they will never accept the existence of Israel with any borders. So this is bigger and deeper than about the settlements. Two states, living side by side in peace, it's a great dream ... but HOW? To be clear, I put the blame on both sides and don't take seriously people who think it is only about ONE side not behaving well. The blockade of Gaza is a big issue too. So too are the thousands of widows and orphans. If Israel was to address those 3 issues properly, you would find Hamas' support decline to insignificance, and a majority seeing light in a 2 state solution. What do you expect from a people that have been repressed and murdered, their lands stolen repeatedly? Surely it is the aggressor that needs to back down if peace has any hope. Surely! I think you know Israel has no desire to address the issues, even if Hamas disappeared and Fatah offered an olive branch (if they have any left after settlers have bulldozed the groves), Israel would find another excuse to wage war upon the Palestinians or colonise more land.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Don't speak for me. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) The facts are that the settlements and their foreign occupants have no right to be there hence UN and 135 countries expressing their support thought recognition. 80% of. The world population represented and France likely to be the next European country to agree. I notice you have not answered my question as to why newly arrived immigrants to Israel should be allowed to displace those in the West Bank who have been there for generations. According to a UN fact finding mission. Israeli settlements in the occupied territories violate Palestinians' human rights in ways designed to drive them off the land, a UN report states. The report says settlements displace Palestinians, destroy their crops and property, and subject them to violence. Source BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21274061 Edited November 5, 2014 by Jay Sata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I notice you have not answered my question as to why newly arrived immigrants to Israel should be allowed to displace those in the West Bank who have been there for generations. I DID answer it. Israel is a Sovereign state. They can make anyone a citizen that they desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) I notice you have not answered my question as to why newly arrived immigrants to Israel should be allowed to displace those in the West Bank who have been there for generations. I DID answer it. Israel is a Sovereign state. They can make anyone a citizen that they desire. A state with an important founding principle ... an invitation to Jewish people anywhere in the world to return either because of persecution in the diaspora, choice, or a combination. It's a little unusual because the history of the Jewish people in the world is unusual, but it is not at all unheard of for nations to welcome immigration based on ancestry/ethnicity. Many many countries do that. Edited November 5, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) If Israel was to address those 3 issues properly, you would find Hamas' support decline to insignificance, and a majority seeing light in a 2 state solution. Horse droppings. When Israel handed over Gaza there was no blockade and the Palestinians responded with bombings inside Israel, rockets fired from Gaza and they turned the place into an armed camp. That was only a few years ago. Wishful thinking does not supersede facts. Edited November 5, 2014 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seastallion Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Don't speak for me. Thanks. I didn't speak for you. I said I think you know....and I do think that. Instead of pointless prevaricating, why don't you agree or disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japsportscarmad Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Read the story again and check your facts. The UN did not give Israel the right to,encourage people from across the world based on them being of the Jewish faith, to settle in the West Bank on land confiscated from the local population. Despite you constantly trying to defend the actions of Israel you never seem to offer a solution. Do you support the settlers and their ability to construct what has often been described as an apartheid scenario in the occupied territories. If so can I assume you would prefer a one state solution. Or would you prefer two states? You cannot have both however that is what Israel is trying to achieve. They will argue and argue the facts until their red in their faces but their very small mental ability to know what is right and what is wrong you will not penetrate. They will not give you yes or no answers to 90% of your questions and will troll you with nasty comments. What I wonder is if Israel is the great panacea for all problems and so great why they haven't shuffled off over there to help enhance the capacity for the terrorist established state to ethnically clens the rest off the land? You won't get them to change their mind or actually address any sensible issues as their indoctrinated as much as either Hitlers SS or Stalins NKVD ever were. They will only believe in a solution that allows them to make everyone else who does not like their agenda to do what it wants, to either leave or die and they do not really care which. Don't waste your time just spend wisely on your goods and ensure where it's come from, send letters to anywhere you see Israeli goods and complain and ask awkward questions they will stop selling stuff if too many complaints, call your congressman but above all don't suport the terrorist established state of Israel, but do be nice to your Jewish friends and neighbours as not all jews are bad just like the rest of us :-) Edited November 5, 2014 by japsportscarmad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japsportscarmad Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 If Israel was to address those 3 issues properly, you would find Hamas' support decline to insignificance, and a majority seeing light in a 2 state solution.Horse droppings. When Israel handed over Gaza there was no blockade and the Palestinians responded with bombings inside Israel, rockets fired from Gaza and they turned the place into an armed camp. That was only a few years ago. Wishful thinking does not supersede facts. There was a blockade of sorts as they made everything very difficult to get goods in and out and if wasn't for the UN there would be very little medicine in Gazza. The rockets are a side issue as Israel has its iron dome missile system, is it made of plasticine as according to you 1000s of sophisticated rockets land every day? That's disingenuous to say the least! Yes Hamas are bad but they are a reaction to how Israel deals with the situation in general, and knows it's owner the U.S. wont no matter what do anything about it. But they're also impotant on a world stage as well, hence Iran's still carrying on building a nuclear capability and Israel is scared of attacking it even though they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japsportscarmad Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Afternoon Jing Thing how are you? That Lenovo S820 phone of yours does seem to hold up to a lot of use :-) my iphone keeps going wrong, have you sent a virus :-).I don't want to really argue with you as said I wouldn't and I think you mean well and no harm and are most likely a good person But: Yes the Arab attack was a big mistake and was a massive provocation, but also a reaction to things Israel were doing at the time. The arabs as usual had too much in-fighting and bravado to ever win and conscript low paid troops don't win a war, intelligence and technology do which Israel has. But to counter you on the UN establishing Israel yes it did, but then even you must accept that Israel has ignored anything they have said since, and all resolutions. Significantly, America tries to block everything that that criticises Israel from the UN, just as Russia and China now block them on Ukraine. So you can't take the moral high ground on the UN who did it, then not accept anything the UN says later as that's not a fair position to take or try to defend is it? The UN looks fairly impotent and hasn't really kept up with world politics and transfer of power from the West either as it still favours the old order from the Second World War. Israel has some good points I will admit but does not help itself and is been seem more and more as a state out of control, wether this is true or not they are loosing the battle in many of the hearts of those who supported them outside Israel and world opinion has turned against them. I would never have not bought Israeli goods but now don't and I am not alone, it's a peaceful situation, not involving violence simply spending away from countries where you do not like the politics when you can. Edited November 5, 2014 by japsportscarmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japsportscarmad Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Actually just a small point but Israel won, not the Jews as there were not just Jews in the Israeli army, and they had massive help from the U.S. In terms of intelligence and supplied hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seastallion Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Don't speak for me. Thanks. I didn't speak for you. I said I think you know....and I do think that. Instead of pointless prevaricating, why don't you agree or disagree? Plainly too many inconvenient truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Sata Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app As you are such a supporter of the settlements why not move there . I see on another thread you ask for suggestions as to where older Americans could relocate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app As you are such a supporter of the settlements why not move there .I see on another thread you ask for suggestions as to where older Americans could relocate! What a trollish comment. Anyway only Tel Aviv would do for me and I can't afford it.Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japsportscarmad Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conveniently neglected to mention that when the UN established Israel most of the Arab world attacked and were expected to win. But the Jews won ... surprise surprise. That's the root of this mess ... the original Arab attack set the stage. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app As you are such a supporter of the settlements why not move there .I see on another thread you ask for suggestions as to where older Americans could relocate! What a trollish comment. Anyway only Tel Aviv would do for me and I can't afford it.Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Jingthing come on, Tel Aviv is very nice and cosmopolitan I have fond memories and still have friends in Givatyim, but it's not that expensive depending where you go compared to New York or London. A man of your means and ability should be able to afford something, perhaps on the promenade? Near the beach? Or near the big park that's very peaceful and no Hamas rockets :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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