Sweden recognises Palestinian state

[Jingthing]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

The pot calling the kettle black.

[Morch]

Because truthfully what interests or power does supporting Palestine offer?

The interests and power of the rich powerful Arab oil countries who have used the Palestinians as pawns for many decades.

I am not sure.....Although I understand the premise

But it does not add up IMO because if they wanted to use a pawn

they would support it.

But even looking back 6 years it was already a trickle at best

Arab Aid to Palestinians Often Doesn't Fulfill Pledges

Wouldn't they support them rather than ignore them?

Or are you saying this is how they use them?

Palestinians, in general, are not really well liked in most of the Arab world. Yes, there are demonstrations, marches, fiery speeches and whatnot - when push comes to shove, nowadays support is mostly verbal. No economic boycotts, no military action, and yes....many a time the financial support is not what was promised. Partly to do with issues concerning donor countries, partly domestic Palestinian issues. Great headlines, not much actual follow up on details.

And that's without going into the way Palestinian refugees are treated by host Arab countries...

Edited November 11, 2014 by Scott

[Seastallion]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

[Ulysses G.]

Palestinians, in general, are not really well liked in most of the Arab world.

They are thought of by most Arabs in pretty much the same way that they are by right wing Israelis - not in flattering terms.

[Jingthing]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

The world community? Like Lebanon and Syria and Iran and increasingly Islamic influenced Europe? Why should Jews trust the "world community" ever? Are Jews paranoid ... as famously said, yes and INFORMED BY HISTORY. Why do you think the idea of Zionism blossomed in the first place?

I've said it before ... forces in Europe trying to pressure Jews to capitulate to the Palestinian forces dedicated to the end of Israel is cheeky beyond belief. A Europe that once again has become a hostile place for IDENTIFIABLE Jews to even live in.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

Which of course is why around 70% of the nations on this planet support Palestinians having their own state.

It does not matter how much the right wingers try to skew the argument the facts will not go away.

We can only hope that eventually trade embargoes and isolation will force the right wingers out of power and allow the more reasonable people in Israel to seek and achieve the two state solution.

One thing is for sure the present attitude is getting Likud etc nowhere.

[Ulysses G.]

Which of course is why around 70% of the nations on this planet support Palestinians having their own state.

Which means very little in the real world. They have no state. They have no economy. They have no borders and the two halves of their dysfunctional government are at war with each other and can't agree on anything that will change the status quo.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[jacky54]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

Edited November 11, 2014 by jacky54

[jdinasia]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

Edited November 11, 2014 by jdinasia

[arjunadawn]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

The 67 borders are in essence the 48 borders, and that puts the west bank squarely in Israel! It is not legally titled to any other than Israel and was only occupied by Jordan because of aggression and from the time of the armistice that the Jordanians themselves insisted in no way constituted the final settlement of who owns the land. They miscalculated and in 67 when they sought even more land Israel repulsed them, and REGAINED "control" over the legally titled West Bank. Now, their choice to balance some semblance of indeterminate status pending final status talks speaks volumes of Israel's restraint and Ace Card in seeking peace. After all, the West Bank IS Israeli property.

[Morch]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

The argument that having a Palestinian state would somehow give Israel more international leeway to defend itself is not

supported by reality. Taking the situation with Lebanon and the Hezbollah as an example, Israel takes heat whenever it

retaliates, while the Lebanese government seems powerless to reign in the Hezbollah (and other organizations) of doing as

they will. Not much different than the balance of power between the PA and Hamas.

[Morch]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

Ramallah might be a de facto capital, although the Hamas did fine without it. But regardless, don't recall the Palestinians ever

dropping their claim for Jerusalem. In fact...

Abbas wants to move Arafat shrine to Jerusalem

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- President Mahmoud Abbas said Sunday the shrine of late President Yasser Arafat wills be moved to Jerusalem, the capital of Palestine, at the earliest possible opportunity.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=738844

Rest of the article also interesting as to how little control and goodwill exists between the Fatah and the Hamas.

Or here:

Abbas: Jerusalem must be capital of Palestinian state

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Saturday that Jerusalem is the capital of the Palestinian state.

Speaking in Ramallah, he said that “Al-Quds [the Arabic name for Jerusalem] and everything that was conquered in the 1967 war is part of the Palestinian state.” Abbas was addressing a delegation of East Jerusalem Arabs at an event commemorating 49 years since the foundation of the Fatah organization.

Abbas emphasized that foreign ministers from the supervisory committee of the Arab League, meeting U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry this week, will tell Kerry that no peace agreement will be reached without East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.568060

Abbas is president, great. Now lets see how this stands if and when full elections are conducted, with all sides participating and

accepting the results...Polls not looking too good for him, but polls don't mean much when there are no elections.

The 1967 lines are not accepted by Hamas as a final border.

[jdinasia]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

The 67 borders are in essence the 48 borders, and that puts the west bank squarely in Israel! It is not legally titled to any other than Israel and was only occupied by Jordan because of aggression and from the time of the armistice that the Jordanians themselves insisted in no way constituted the final settlement of who owns the land. They miscalculated and in 67 when they sought even more land Israel repulsed them, and REGAINED "control" over the legally titled West Bank. Now, their choice to balance some semblance of indeterminate status pending final status talks speaks volumes of Israel's restraint and Ace Card in seeking peace. After all, the West Bank IS Israeli property.

Umm no

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/864379

1967 borders

Huffington Post

[Seastallion]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

The world community? Like Lebanon and Syria and Iran and increasingly Islamic influenced Europe? Why should Jews trust the "world community" ever? Are Jews paranoid ... as famously said, yes and INFORMED BY HISTORY. Why do you think the idea of Zionism blossomed in the first place?

I've said it before ... forces in Europe trying to pressure Jews to capitulate to the Palestinian forces dedicated to the end of Israel is cheeky beyond belief. A Europe that once again has become a hostile place for IDENTIFIABLE Jews to even live in.

Your paranoia is starting to be irrational. Calm down. The world community is in fact a powerful thing despite the UN's shortcomings. Israel WILL NOT be obliterated.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Seastallion

[Seastallion]

I am sure Sweden's decision did nothing for her. Very sad, especially for her family.

But what Sweden's decision will do is what we have to hope for, so that desperate deranged maniacs are not driven to desperation and maniacal behaviour.

Sweden's decision is a step towards a better future for both sides.

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

The argument that having a Palestinian state would somehow give Israel more international leeway to defend itself is not

supported by reality. Taking the situation with Lebanon and the Hezbollah as an example, Israel takes heat whenever it

retaliates, while the Lebanese government seems powerless to reign in the Hezbollah (and other organizations) of doing as

they will. Not much different than the balance of power between the PA and Hamas.

Huge difference. Huge.

Firstly, what prompts Hezbollah actions in the first place? Secondly, international criticism of Israel is zilch or negligible when Israel does justifiable actions.. (Justifiable includes proportional and legal)

[Ulysses G.]

The 1967 lines are not accepted by Hamas as a final border.

The only lines they accept include ALL of Israel.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Avoiding the key issue as usual ... the problem of the majority of Palestinians not only wanting a state but wanting an end to Israel. Why would that change with a state? They would just be stronger in going for that goal.

No matter how many times you harp on that fallacious point, it won't make it valid.

Try thinking of it like this; If Israel was to be fair and reasonable, and a Palestinian state was established, the global community would support Israel's defense against any attack. As it stands at the moment, Israel's disproportionate "defense" and continuing provocations just make all fair-minded people condemnatory of Israel.

The argument that having a Palestinian state would somehow give Israel more international leeway to defend itself is not

supported by reality. Taking the situation with Lebanon and the Hezbollah as an example, Israel takes heat whenever it

retaliates, while the Lebanese government seems powerless to reign in the Hezbollah (and other organizations) of doing as

they will. Not much different than the balance of power between the PA and Hamas.

Huge difference. Huge.

Firstly, what prompts Hezbollah actions in the first place? Secondly, international criticism of Israel is zilch or negligible when Israel does justifiable actions.. (Justifiable includes proportional and legal)

So you said there's a huge difference, then left it a mystery. Not sure what you're on about. The bottom line is that a neighboring country, such as it is, cannot control an armed militia who conducts attacks against Israel. Said government (and world community) then whine when it gets hit back. Not that it does anything proactive to change this state of things.

As for international criticism being negligible, may I remind you of memory issues evident in other topics?

[Ulysses G.]

Not illegal. There are plenty of legal experts who say so - as well as plenty with the opposite opinion. Palestinian terrorists have brought all these problems on their own people and no other country would put up with it.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed. Again, this topic is about Sweden's recognition of Palestine.

I would really rather not start suspending people for off-topic posts, but unless some posters start sticking to the topic, they will be on suspension. A thread has a topic and that is what you need to discuss. Discussing what you feel like discussing just doesn't work very well.

You have been warned.

[up-country_sinclair]

Palestinians need to deal with ISRAEL.

Many people used to think that was true, but no longer. Sweden has made this abundantly clear and other European nations are sure to follow. Now it's only the occupiers and their apologists who still think this way. The tide of public opinion has turned and Israel has become irrelevant to the inevitability of the formation of the Palestinian state.

Edited November 11, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Morch]

Palestinians need to deal with ISRAEL.

Many people used to think that was true, but no longer. Sweden has made this abundantly clear and other European nations are sure to follow. Now it's only the occupiers and their apologists who still think this way. The tide of public opinion has turned and Israel has become irrelevant to the inevitability of the formation of the Palestinian state.

How, in realistic terms, would Palestine become a reality (beyond words of international recognition), without dealing with Israel? Words are all very fine, but when it comes down to it, there's already a majority of countries recognizing Palestine, and that does not seem to have much effect on the Palestinian situation. The "tide", in this regard, turned long ago - but just how that makes Israel irrelevant, is not too clear.

[arjunadawn]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

The 67 borders are in essence the 48 borders, and that puts the west bank squarely in Israel! It is not legally titled to any other than Israel and was only occupied by Jordan because of aggression and from the time of the armistice that the Jordanians themselves insisted in no way constituted the final settlement of who owns the land. They miscalculated and in 67 when they sought even more land Israel repulsed them, and REGAINED "control" over the legally titled West Bank. Now, their choice to balance some semblance of indeterminate status pending final status talks speaks volumes of Israel's restraint and Ace Card in seeking peace. After all, the West Bank IS Israeli property.

Umm no

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/864379

1967 borders

Huffington Post

Great link... Ummm, no! The link only shows a picture of the various areas over time. The graphic helps, but not to disprove my point. My point remains: West Bank was intended for Jews. It's always possible I've missed something vital in my studies that qualifies and changes my assumption, but this link is not that.

What Sweden has done was recognize land belonging to one people as the nation of another. Very arrogant. Very dubious as it was an emotional act and not reasoned. Lastly, it's inflammatory.

Edited November 11, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Jingthing]

The recognitions are meant to pressure Israel. It's a tactic. A smart one? Time will tell.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[MJP]

Another OT post removed.

[jdinasia]

surely a state needs a capital, a currency, borders and a government, what are these ?? Who is the president or the king, even in exile, of this so called Palestine? They could have had it all of course if not for their blind hatred of Israel and obsession with it's destruction first.

All of which the State of Palestine has.

Capital -Ramallah

President Abbas

67 borders

TTBOMK the Israeli Shekels and the Jordanian Dinar (mostly the Shekel due to the occupation)

They have a national anthem

They are a recognized non-member State of the UN

The 67 borders are in essence the 48 borders, and that puts the west bank squarely in Israel! It is not legally titled to any other than Israel and was only occupied by Jordan because of aggression and from the time of the armistice that the Jordanians themselves insisted in no way constituted the final settlement of who owns the land. They miscalculated and in 67 when they sought even more land Israel repulsed them, and REGAINED "control" over the legally titled West Bank. Now, their choice to balance some semblance of indeterminate status pending final status talks speaks volumes of Israel's restraint and Ace Card in seeking peace. After all, the West Bank IS Israeli property.

Umm no

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/864379

1967 borders

Huffington Post

Great link... Ummm, no! The link only shows a picture of the various areas over time. The graphic helps, but not to disprove my point. My point remains: West Bank was intended for Jews. It's always possible I've missed something vital in my studies that qualifies and changes my assumption, but this link is not that.

What Sweden has done was recognize land belonging to one people as the nation of another. Very arrogant. Very dubious as it was an emotional act and not reasoned. Lastly, it's inflammatory.

No that is not what Sweden has done. See the caption

A map of the region according to the 1967 borders:

[bigjules007]

Not illegal. There are plenty of legal experts who say so - as well as plenty with the opposite opinion. Palestinian terrorists have brought all these problems on their own people and no other country would put up with it.

How can you honestly say something like this??

Are you forgetting the whole reason for this conflict in the first place???

What kind of national liberation movement allies itself in every case and at every moment in its history with the powers of world imperialism? What national liberation struggle built its very existence on the colonization of another people, on the obliteration of that people’s history, their culture, and their land? At least the founding fathers of Zionism were much more honest about what they stood for. Over and over, one word appears in their writing: not national "liberation," but "colonisation."

So tell me how have other past civilisation's who have been colonised reacted? Have these people who resisted colonisation been labelled as radical terrorists???

Or freedom fighters and resistance groups.

Sweden being the first EU country to recognise a Palestinian state, isn't a one off because I think the world government's are finally growing tired of Israels antics and I think we shall see more following Swedens lead in the near future.

[Jay Sata]

Excellent reply if. I may say so Bigjules.

Jdinasia spouts on there about Jews being the rightful owners of the West Bank.

The truth is these are not Israeli settlers but colonists invited in from across the world by Israel with the sole qualification being their religion. In most cases any tenuous link they have with the former Palestine dates back several decades if not centuries.

What right does a Russian family have over the local ethnic population.

The truth is none and that is why Sweden and other decent minded governments have recognised the rights of the Palestinans to have a homeland alongside their Israeli neighbours.

Israel is trying to gerrymander its population because of the demographic time bomb where they worry they will be out red by the Arab Israeli population.

[uptheos]

Post 324 " The recognitions are meant to pressure Israel. It's a tactic. A smart one? Time will tell."

The only country it puts pressure on is Sweden, it is just one more step on their idiotic path to self destruction.

Edited November 12, 2014 by uptheos

[jdinasia]

Excellent reply if. I may say so Bigjules.

Jdinasia spouts on there about Jews being the rightful owners of the West Bank.

The truth is these are not Israeli settlers but colonists invited in from across the world by Israel with the sole qualification being their religion. In most cases any tenuous link they have with the former Palestine dates back several decades if not centuries.

What right does a Russian family have over the local ethnic population.

The truth is none and that is why Sweden and other decent minded governments have recognised the rights of the Palestinans to have a homeland alongside their Israeli neighbours.

Israel is trying to gerrymander its population because of the demographic time bomb where they worry they will be out red by the Arab Israeli population.

You are mistaken. I have never had the position you ascribe to me.