Sweden recognises Palestinian state

[dexterm]

With the stalling in peace talks, looks like this is the way to go...make something happen.

If Palestine is a recognized UN member, it could force both parties into talking sensibly about where their final borders will be. And it would certainly make it impossible for any future right wing Israeli government to “transfer” 4 million Palestinians out of the West Bank. So they will then have to address the problem of what to do with them, if they don’t want them as equal Israeli citizens in an annexed West Bank... voila a two state solution....something they have been “talking” about occasionally for the last 20 years and getting nowhere.

Sweden, France, UK and others’ recognition could be the kick start for change.

[Morch]

With the stalling in peace talks, looks like this is the way to go...make something happen.

If Palestine is a recognized UN member, it could force both parties into talking sensibly about where their final borders will be. And it would certainly make it impossible for any future right wing Israeli government to “transfer” 4 million Palestinians out of the West Bank. So they will then have to address the problem of what to do with them, if they don’t want them as equal Israeli citizens in an annexed West Bank... voila a two state solution....something they have been “talking” about occasionally for the last 20 years and getting nowhere.

Sweden, France, UK and others’ recognition could be the kick start for change.

How will achieving full membership (something yet to happen), by itself, "force" either side to do anything other than the same old? Does someone imagine Israel doing an about face because of a UN vote? Does someone imagine the Hamas seeing itself as obligated to withhold different norms because Palestine is officially a country? Will it makes Abbas grow a pair?

More likely things will drag on some more, with both sides trying to score points, possibly more violence, maybe some actual sanctions on Israel, cutting of Aid to Palestine....that sort of thing. After these are exhausted, perhaps. If nothing dramatic will happen.

As I pointed out, there isn't enough popular support for a "transfer" of the Palestinian population. It is not even acceptable to all of the right wing parties in Israel. If there was a government willing and able to pull this through, it wouldn't be the sort of regime that cares much for what the world thinks (try North Korea, IS and the like).

The decision making processes in both sides are not as rational, not apply the same logic and include different premises than what some posters seem to imagine. Additionally, the role domestic politics play in this is enormous, often taking the front seat.

[uptheos]

Recognition is one thing but economic boycott such as happened to South Africa tends to have more impact.

The various campaigns to boycott all things Israeli – from products, to businesses, to culture – have been a stupendous failure, but doesn't stop the crystal ball gazing Israel-bashers from predicting the next one will be a roaring success. It seems that they are willing to rely worthless gestures - like "recognizing" a country that does not exist - that accomplish pretty much nothing.

Boycott Israel, buy Palestinian

[Seastallion]

Recognition is one thing but economic boycott such as happened to South Africa tends to have more impact.

The various campaigns to boycott all things Israeli – from products, to businesses, to culture – have been a stupendous failure, but doesn't stop the crystal ball gazing Israel-bashers from predicting the next one will be a roaring success. It seems that they are willing to rely worthless gestures - like "recognizing" a country that does not exist - that accomplish pretty much nothing.

Boycott Israel, buy Palestinian

Excellent idea. All we need is for Israel to allow Palestine to have an economy.

[Ulysses G.]

They already tried that in Gaza, which was turned over with no blockade. Hamas responded by destroying thousands of money making greenhouses, setting off bombs in Israel and increasing the rockets shot at civilians in Israel. Instead of working to develop a successful economy, they turned Gaza into an armed camp.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

[uptheos]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

[Jay Sata]

And the other 135 countries?

[jdinasia]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

Nothing weak about standing up for what is right and not scraping the boots of the UNSC veto (the US /UK)

Recognition of the State of Palestine by the West is moving faster and Israel will have the choice to deal with that recognition or become further isolated.

[uptheos]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

Nothing weak about standing up for what is right and not scraping the boots of the UNSC veto (the US /UK)

Recognition of the State of Palestine by the West is moving faster and Israel will have the choice to deal with that recognition or become further isolated.

It can be recognised until the cows come home, but the bottom line is if they fire rockets into Israel then they accept the consequences. If Israel feels it is being threatened by tunnels or other means they will seal the borders, do what is necessary and I doubt very much they will play around like last time. Israel is one country in the world who are not afraid of standing up to Islamic terrorists and Netanyahu will use the UN recognition paper to light his cigars.

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel, a stable prosperous country with brilliant achievements in the face of adversity. Their contribution to technology is outstanding and that is definitely not in question. Boycott their oranges and avocados, but you'll never get away from the technology that's in your phone, computer, TV...will people throw those away too?

No doubt these weak EU countries are increasingly becoming afraid of a very strong Israel that can if need be, depend solely on itself. Throughout history, Europeans are used to Jews being on the receiving end of the stick and needing help and sympathy, More and more these countries, who by the way are terrified of Islamic dominance inside their own borders but are afraid to say so in case it offends the progressives, are getting disturbed that Israel does not fit into their stereotypical picture anymore.

All civilized countries have Hamas on their terror list but most refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are the true rulers in Palestine. ISIS is spreading and there's only one stable government in the region that would dare to be brave enough to resist them and the loony left wing EU is determined that won't happen. I await the black flag hoisted on the Riksdagshuset, Parlement Francais and the Stortingsbygningen and believe me nobody deserves it more than them!

[jdinasia]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

Nothing weak about standing up for what is right and not scraping the boots of the UNSC veto (the US /UK)

Recognition of the State of Palestine by the West is moving faster and Israel will have the choice to deal with that recognition or become further isolated.

It can be recognised until the cows come home, but the bottom line is if they fire rockets into Israel then they accept the consequences. If Israel feels it is being threatened by tunnels or other means they will seal the borders, do what is necessary and I doubt very much they will play around like last time. Israel is one country in the world who are not afraid of standing up to Islamic terrorists and Netanyahu will use the UN recognition paper to light his cigars.

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel, a stable prosperous country with brilliant achievements in the face of adversity. Their contribution to technology is outstanding and that is definitely not in question. Boycott their oranges and avocados, but you'll never get away from the technology that's in your phone, computer, TV...will people throw those away too?

No doubt these weak EU countries are increasingly becoming afraid of a very strong Israel that can if need be, depend solely on itself. Throughout history, Europeans are used to Jews being on the receiving end of the stick and needing help and sympathy, More and more these countries, who by the way are terrified of Islamic dominance inside their own borders but are afraid to say so in case it offends the progressives, are getting disturbed that Israel does not fit into their stereotypical picture anymore.

All civilized countries have Hamas on their terror list but most refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are the true rulers in Palestine. ISIS is spreading and there's only one stable government in the region that would dare to be brave enough to resist them and the loony left wing EU is determined that won't happen. I await the black flag hoisted on the Riksdagshuset, Parlement Francais and the Stortingsbygningen and believe me nobody deserves it more than them!

Your bottom line and that of the Palestinians seems to be different.

Theirs seems to be as long as the illegal blockade and occupation continues so will resistance.

[uptheos]

You see Palestinians herded wherever Hamas wants them to be!

[jdinasia]

"Israel has a right to know – they're at war with Hamas – has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in. It's legitimate for Israel to say, "I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping ... 3,000 rockets on my people."

Joe Biden

I am just guessing, but I would bet that you don't often agree with Biden's positions

[up-country_sinclair]

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel

Sure, Sweden and the other 135 nations (and counting) made this decision because they are "very jealous of Israel".

[uptheos]

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel

Sure, Sweden and the other 135 nations (and counting) made this decision because they are "very jealous of Israel".

No question about Sweden, they've booked themselves a one way ticket to the 7th century.

It's gone from being one of the safest countries for women to the rape capital of the world and a third of the victims are under 15. If I were Swedish I'd be jealous of Israel, but it's hard to know who really is Swedish anymore.

Edited November 14, 2014 by uptheos

[Jay Sata]

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel

Sure, Sweden and the other 135 nations (and counting) made this decision because they are "very jealous of Israel".

No question about Sweden, they've booked themselves a one way ticket to the 7th century.

Sadly it is the settlers and there like who still think this is the 7th century with their belief in some biblical rights.

70% of the worlds nations support Palestine enjoying the right to self determination.

135 nations...the numbers speak for themselves.

[jdinasia]

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel

Sure, Sweden and the other 135 nations (and counting) made this decision because they are "very jealous of Israel".

No question about Sweden, they've booked themselves a one way ticket to the 7th century.

How many times will you use that lie? Sweden seems to be doing better than most countries in the world.

[jdinasia]

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel

Sure, Sweden and the other 135 nations (and counting) made this decision because they are "very jealous of Israel".

No question about Sweden, they've booked themselves a one way ticket to the 7th century.

It's gone from being one of the safest countries for women to the rape capital of the world and a third of the victims are under 15. If I were Swedish I'd be jealous of Israel, but it's hard to know who really is Swedish anymore.

Amazing how some people resort to flawed statistics.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/03/04/why_is_it_so_hard_to_identify_the_world_s_rape_capital

[Jay Sata]

It does not matter how you dress up the blockade it is still collective punishment and the attack on the flotilla did a lot of harm to. Israel,both financial in terms of trade with Turkey, and diplomatically with negative world press.

The numbers I keeping quoting say it all and before long the USA will have to accept they can not go against world opinion.

Trying to smear Sweden is juvenile.

What have you got to say about the other 134 countries?

[MJP]

I've removed a post reported to be off-topic. To be honest, I know so little detail about the roots of the problems in the middle east it's difficult for me to know what is and what isn't off-topic.

So apologies if that was the case.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Another off topic reply to an earlier removed post has been removed.

Reminder to all to stay on topic. I know we are at 20 pages, so if you don't know what 'off topic' means, go back to page 1 and have a good read again.

[Morch]

Recognition is one thing but economic boycott such as happened to South Africa tends to have more impact.

The various campaigns to boycott all things Israeli – from products, to businesses, to culture – have been a stupendous failure, but doesn't stop the crystal ball gazing Israel-bashers from predicting the next one will be a roaring success. It seems that they are willing to rely worthless gestures - like "recognizing" a country that does not exist - that accomplish pretty much nothing.

Boycott Israel, buy Palestinian

Excellent idea. All we need is for Israel to allow Palestine to have an economy.

Sort of exemplifies an issue mentioned in another post - bottom line, no matter what their failings, the Palestinian can always

blame Israel for whatever shortcoming they exhibit. Slogans galore.

During the British mandate it was the Jewish population responsible for most commercial and industrial development. During

the years between 1949 and 1967 the Palestinian did not develop much of a successful economy. There is simply not much

to offer - not a whole lot natural resources, no skilled workforce, and massive corruption issues.

The Palestinian economy is dependent and intertwined with Israel's. This is not about to change, unless someone has in mind

the total collapse of the future Palestinian state before it takes off the ground. The immediate other economies (Egypt, Jordan)

are not in a great shape, and there is no viable short/medium term but to continue the economic relationship with Israel.

Making it on their own is all very nice, but cutting economic ties with Israel will almost surely result in a financial and social

crisis. Not exactly what a new state with a weakling at its head need. That electricity bill pending will become a major hurdle

all by itself, for example.

It is not that Israel haven't taken certain economic advantages from the situation vs. the Palestinians, but on the other hand

the Palestinians show very little capability of making a separate economy work. One may notice that trade, labor, and taxes

are generally not at the forefront of the Palestinian demands, and for good reasons.

There's bound to be someone who'll post some nonsense about outside investment - relying on the goodwill of the richer Arab

neighbors can be unreliable (as seen in the past), and besides, handouts do not make an economy. Foreign firms are probably

not going to flock to the new state of Palestine, perhaps excluding certain infrastructure projects. For the other likely post about

how Palestine will get rich off possible gas/oil fields in the Mediterranean - so far this is more speculation than fact, and if Israel

is an example, it is doubtful how much gain this will actually represent for the average Palestinian.

If we go back to the recognition thing - will be interesting to see just how much economy-building aid (as opposed to donations

and handouts) will be forthcoming from countries recognizing Palestine as a state. My guess is that some disappointment is in

the cards.

[Morch]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

Nothing weak about standing up for what is right and not scraping the boots of the UNSC veto (the US /UK)

Recognition of the State of Palestine by the West is moving faster and Israel will have the choice to deal with that recognition or become further isolated.

Isn't France a a permanent member of the UNSC (and therefore, holds a veto power by its own right)? Or for that matter, the

UK (which had a similar pro-vote recently)? They scraping their own boots now?

[Morch]

For all the bluster and cutting and pasting from the usual people they cannot remove this statement.

"Today the government takes the decision to recognise the state of Palestine," Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom said in a statement published in the Dagens Nyheter daily.

"It is an important step that confirms the Palestinians' right to self-determination."

As others have already suggested France will be next.

Of course they will, France as usual is acting out of weakness as it has always done.

Nothing weak about standing up for what is right and not scraping the boots of the UNSC veto (the US /UK)

Recognition of the State of Palestine by the West is moving faster and Israel will have the choice to deal with that recognition or become further isolated.

It can be recognised until the cows come home, but the bottom line is if they fire rockets into Israel then they accept the consequences. If Israel feels it is being threatened by tunnels or other means they will seal the borders, do what is necessary and I doubt very much they will play around like last time. Israel is one country in the world who are not afraid of standing up to Islamic terrorists and Netanyahu will use the UN recognition paper to light his cigars.

Also, I don't think that there's anyone who would question that the reasoning behind many European nations decision is because they are very jealous of Israel, a stable prosperous country with brilliant achievements in the face of adversity. Their contribution to technology is outstanding and that is definitely not in question. Boycott their oranges and avocados, but you'll never get away from the technology that's in your phone, computer, TV...will people throw those away too?

No doubt these weak EU countries are increasingly becoming afraid of a very strong Israel that can if need be, depend solely on itself. Throughout history, Europeans are used to Jews being on the receiving end of the stick and needing help and sympathy, More and more these countries, who by the way are terrified of Islamic dominance inside their own borders but are afraid to say so in case it offends the progressives, are getting disturbed that Israel does not fit into their stereotypical picture anymore.

All civilized countries have Hamas on their terror list but most refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are the true rulers in Palestine. ISIS is spreading and there's only one stable government in the region that would dare to be brave enough to resist them and the loony left wing EU is determined that won't happen. I await the black flag hoisted on the Riksdagshuset, Parlement Francais and the Stortingsbygningen and believe me nobody deserves it more than them!

Wouldn't call Israel stable nor prosperous compared to most first world countries.

A quick survey of Israeli headlines not dealing with the Palestinian issue will demonstrate that the economy is not in a great shape as far as most ordinary Israelis go. Israel becoming non dependent of outside countries? Pure fantasy, cannot recall

a serious research, policy, or anything of the sort to support this. Israel can handle some of its needs, not all. Self relaying

countries tend to be at the top of the ladder or the very bottom.

Doubt that European countries are "jealous" of Israel. If anything, they count their blessings they don't need to deal with many

of the issues and problems which are Israel's lot.

The rest is nonsense as well - Israel got a higher percentage of Muslim citizens than any of the EU countries, and if IS ever

takes control of Europe, it would probably be long after Israel is gone.

[Jay Sata]

If Israel is so independent why does it still need huge sums from the USA every year and is still dependent on US arms manufacturers to blast Gaza to bits .

[Jingthing]

If Israel is so independent why does it still need huge sums from the USA every year and is still dependent on US arms manufacturers to blast Gaza to bits .

Blast Gaza to bits? Is that what happened you reckon? More over the top Israel demonization. Also as if Israel acted without provocation.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bigjules007]

If Israel is so independent why does it still need huge sums from the USA every year and is still dependent on US arms manufacturers to blast Gaza to bits .

Blast Gaza to bits? Is that what happened you reckon? More over the top Israel demonization. Also as if Israel acted without provocation.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Pro Israelis will say this is photo shopped, Israel demonisation, really?

how would you define something being blown to bits?

hmm, this is definitely dis proportional, note the huge damage caused by the Palestinian rocket below.

Not off topic, just responding to your post.

[MJP]

Please stay on topic folks. I don't really know what that means any more with regard to these particular topics, but . . . dunno? Wot?

Is this about the aerial bombardment of Gaza now?

[Jay Sata]

The two are entwined MJP because Gaza and the West Bank are designated territory for the Palestinian people agreed by the. United Nations.

As of 30 October 2014, 135 (69.9%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations, in addition to the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, have recognised the State of Palestine as sovereign over both West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Many of the countries that do not recognise the State of Palestine nevertheless recognise the PLO as the 'representative of the Palestinian people'

It would help if you could read in here,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations

Edited November 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jay Sata]

If you want to roll the issue in to one topic better order a new server!

The problem will be every time a new Israel/Palestine story emerges in the news section it will be unfair to other discussions to combine it in much the same way as you cannot lump the problems of the EU in to one thread.

Nice idea though as you could also have a thread dealing with American foreign policy and it's repercussions embracing oil prices,

the war on drugs and terror plus ISIS.

Best regards

jay