Pheu Thai's decision to push through the amnesty bill was a mistake: Weng

[bkkstooge]

To Fat Haggis.

With all your, sometimes irrelevant, posts you've answered your own question:

Post #40

Why did the General not step in after the Trat incident? Blaming violence and unrests for the reason he stepped in , when he did is bovine scatology Ginjag as the violence was always there, so that "slaughter " could have been reduced very early on, if it were not for "inaction" on his behalf ?

Post #45

It takes plans big big big plans to stage a coup, and you do this only with your most loyal officers, everything has to be coordinated and in place so that you are ready to seize control.

BTW the army are not the upholders of the law on the streets - the police are. So the real question is 'why didn't the BIB attempt to reduce the violence against the protestors?

Why didn't the BIB attempt to reduce the violence? Errr

Controlled by Chalerm,

Red shirt supporters ( Remember the cheering cop in Korat)

Both of the above.

[ginjag]

Would have happend? You know this for a fact?

It's an assumption and speculation nothing more from you and others.

Your words were to stop the slaughter on the streets, had you our to stop a potential slaughter on the streets, you would have again been more accurate in your posting. But speculative at that.

It's the same as stating it would have started a civil war, well you can't start something that's already taking place, which is the civil war ongoing in the South. Again it's nothing more than speculation, and let's be blunt shall we, the tens of thousands of red recruits was a red herring, otherwise they would all have been rounded up and enjoying the RTA hospitality suites, he'll even some of the UDD shyt bags are still enjoying their liberty so it wasn't that much of a threat was it?

Oncoming violence ? An assumption nothing more, terrorist threats are like the weather, they say one thing and something else occurs less significant, 10 years in Iraq hearing the same rhetoric from Sunni and Shia scum bags and nothing coming to fruition when stated has taught me to be cynical and cautious over threats of such actions Ginjag.

Smart terrorists don't tend to broadcast their future intentions either ?

I'll answer it as you are incapable of deleting over load ---You do not say who you are answering but it doesn't matter, you posted nothing interesting, not even agreed on anything, because your not supposed to. The rhetoric again ??

All Thailand feared at the time was all out street fighting, and foreigners.

YOU have to answer this way and it does cast the denial thing over and over again.

My guess is that over 90% was expecting big gang street fighting. YOU --NO ??? You posted a load of tripe to counter my answer to some similar bizarre post.

Where are you getting the 90% from? Considering 95% of the country wasn't affected by the protests in the slightest !!

So I posted tripe and your being factual? Pot and kettle methinks as your rambling like a maniac too but it's fun reading your factual posts ?

my conscience is clear about how and what I write. How about you ??? look at the stick you receive, your last post was answered by someone I don't know or contact but he gave the same response as me. unlike your clan---yes them they only put a like sometimes.

You hadn't the gorm to mention Thaksins Brother in law who controlled the police.

95 % was not involved directly NO you are correct but blind to the fact of 95% were very concerned and feared for all major cities getting involved.

But you dismissed this and said the army used it as an excuse-------your getting further into a hole you soon cannot climb out of come on I think you are better than this.

[Fat Haggis]

Would have happend? You know this for a fact?

It's an assumption and speculation nothing more from you and others.

Your words were to stop the slaughter on the streets, had you our to stop a potential slaughter on the streets, you would have again been more accurate in your posting. But speculative at that.

It's the same as stating it would have started a civil war, well you can't start something that's already taking place, which is the civil war ongoing in the South. Again it's nothing more than speculation, and let's be blunt shall we, the tens of thousands of red recruits was a red herring, otherwise they would all have been rounded up and enjoying the RTA hospitality suites, he'll even some of the UDD shyt bags are still enjoying their liberty so it wasn't that much of a threat was it?

Oncoming violence ? An assumption nothing more, terrorist threats are like the weather, they say one thing and something else occurs less significant, 10 years in Iraq hearing the same rhetoric from Sunni and Shia scum bags and nothing coming to fruition when stated has taught me to be cynical and cautious over threats of such actions Ginjag.

Smart terrorists don't tend to broadcast their future intentions either ?

I'll answer it as you are incapable of deleting over load ---You do not say who you are answering but it doesn't matter, you posted nothing interesting, not even agreed on anything, because your not supposed to. The rhetoric again ??

All Thailand feared at the time was all out street fighting, and foreigners.

YOU have to answer this way and it does cast the denial thing over and over again.

My guess is that over 90% was expecting big gang street fighting. YOU --NO ??? You posted a load of tripe to counter my answer to some similar bizarre post.

Where are you getting the 90% from? Considering 95% of the country wasn't affected by the protests in the slightest !!

So I posted tripe and your being factual? Pot and kettle methinks as your rambling like a maniac too but it's fun reading your factual posts ?

my conscience is clear about how and what I write. How about you ??? look at the stick you receive, your last post was answered by someone I don't know or contact but he gave the same response as me. unlike your clan---yes them they only put a like sometimes.

You hadn't the gorm to mention Thaksins Brother in law who controlled the police.

95 % was not involved directly NO you are correct but blind to the fact of 95% were very concerned and feared for all major cities getting involved.

But you dismissed this and said the army used it as an excuse-------your getting further into a hole you soon cannot climb out of come on I think you are better than this.

I hadn't the gorm? Actually I didn't know that to be honest and the cops were useless from day one as well, but I wasn't talking about their ineptness I was pointing out to you and others that the Army were present on the streets at the same time but STILL attacks occurred, so what you're saying then is that's a lie?

Simple question for you to answer Ginjag, were the RTA deployed on the streets of Bangkok during the protests yes or No?

Second question, did the attacks stop?

I am simply questioning their responsibility in all these attacks?

Thank you for your kind words about being better though, however my conscience is very clear as I've not affiliation not support for ANY Thai party or Group, they all suck and besides why would I support a group that is for Thais and Perma residents?

I'm just interested in the lies deceit and subterfuge ? and there's plenty going on now and from the previous administration, the PTP needed to be removed and I'll say it again as I have done since day one, it would have been better to do it through the ballot box, as we will never know just how popular and unpopular the PTP and it's opposition were, it's all hearsay that they were losing / gaining support as there was no way to gauge that.

The constitution will be re written again to prevent the likes of Thaksin getting control , but don't tell me, I don't have a vote, I don't need convincing , it's the Thai electorate that decides who gets elected, something a lot of hyper farangs tend to forget ?

[ginjag]

my conscience is clear about how and what I write. How about you ??? look at the stick you receive, your last post was answered by someone I don't know or contact but he gave the same response as me. unlike your clan---yes them they only put a like sometimes.

You hadn't the gorm to mention Thaksins Brother in law who controlled the police.

95 % was not involved directly NO you are correct but blind to the fact of 95% were very concerned and feared for all major cities getting involved.

But you dismissed this and said the army used it as an excuse-------your getting further into a hole you soon cannot climb out of come on I think you are better than this.

I hadn't the gorm? Actually I didn't know that to be honest and the cops were useless from day one as well, but I wasn't talking about their ineptness I was pointing out to you and others that the Army were present on the streets at the same time but STILL attacks occurred, so what you're saying then is that's a lie?

Simple question for you to answer Ginjag, were the RTA deployed on the streets of Bangkok during the protests yes or No?

Second question, did the attacks stop?

I am simply questioning their responsibility in all these attacks?

Thank you for your kind words about being better though, however my conscience is very clear as I've not affiliation not support for ANY Thai party or Group, they all suck and besides why would I support a group that is for Thais and Perma residents?

I'm just interested in the lies deceit and subterfuge ? and there's plenty going on now and from the previous administration, the PTP needed to be removed and I'll say it again as I have done since day one, it would have been better to do it through the ballot box, as we will never know just how popular and unpopular the PTP and it's opposition were, it's all hearsay that they were losing / gaining support as there was no way to gauge that.

The constitution will be re written again to prevent the likes of Thaksin getting control , but don't tell me, I don't have a vote, I don't need convincing , it's the Thai electorate that decides who gets elected, something a lot of hyper farangs tend to forget ?

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

You ask me if the RTP were deployed on the streets ??? during the protests ??? YES so why didn't the attacks stop You tell me ??

All this police non activity was a ploy ---Yingluck wanted conflict at the time to gain popularity ---it was HER/Shin police, can you explain why they were not involved ??? I will say the same as BKK red mob siege time. Why didn't they intervene ??? why had the army to get in on the act ???

It all went wrong then and it all went wrong this time-----call it SHIN brains backfire.

Yingluck tried her hand through Thaksin to try the game of snap election---and I posted before it was to regain control and 180 day rule expired to get Thaksin his pardon.

Thailand erupted because of this master plan backfired. PTP did shoot themselves in the foot. Army situation again and the minority complains on TVF shy because the Shins lost out. Again.

[tbthailand]

good luck to the progressives in Thailand. The elite will have problems when people assume their own rights and dignity. But elite were warned of this long, long ago.

Who are the progressives? Does the 'elite' not include Thaksin, his family and other wealthy cronies? I think people were warned of Thaksin's deep desire to be a dictator and establish a family dictatorship a long time ago. Elite? Off course he is.

thaksin is not a progressive.

yes thaksin is an elite, too

thaksin is a not a true democrat and only supports democratic ideas because he knows how to win elections. I was not referring to him and do not usually mean Thaksin when using the term 'elite'.

No, the elite are the same right-wingers that have been around for over 100 years and who have married themselves to the generals in an anti-democratic alliance since the 50s.

the current fight is IMO between elites and democracy - as usual - gets run over in the process.

There are real democrats (progressives) in Thailand and I wish them well.

What a load of old cobblers.

Call a spade a spade without all this BS.......Thaksin is a control freak, won 2 elections got thrown out of two PMs jobs.

Money and self importance --look at me --look who I am--a Shin characteristic..... With his BS and enormous wealth he bought, and promised so much to gain his popularity, he is that much of a nutter he thinks he can still control, but that all fell flat as he only had nutters here to do his work.

Cut out the elite gimmickry it's past it's sell by date.

what is "elite gimmickry'?

[tbthailand]

my conscience is clear about how and what I write. How about you ??? look at the stick you receive, your last post was answered by someone I don't know or contact but he gave the same response as me. unlike your clan---yes them they only put a like sometimes.

You hadn't the gorm to mention Thaksins Brother in law who controlled the police.

95 % was not involved directly NO you are correct but blind to the fact of 95% were very concerned and feared for all major cities getting involved.

But you dismissed this and said the army used it as an excuse-------your getting further into a hole you soon cannot climb out of come on I think you are better than this.

I hadn't the gorm? Actually I didn't know that to be honest and the cops were useless from day one as well, but I wasn't talking about their ineptness I was pointing out to you and others that the Army were present on the streets at the same time but STILL attacks occurred, so what you're saying then is that's a lie?

Simple question for you to answer Ginjag, were the RTA deployed on the streets of Bangkok during the protests yes or No?

Second question, did the attacks stop?

I am simply questioning their responsibility in all these attacks?

Thank you for your kind words about being better though, however my conscience is very clear as I've not affiliation not support for ANY Thai party or Group, they all suck and besides why would I support a group that is for Thais and Perma residents?

I'm just interested in the lies deceit and subterfuge ? and there's plenty going on now and from the previous administration, the PTP needed to be removed and I'll say it again as I have done since day one, it would have been better to do it through the ballot box, as we will never know just how popular and unpopular the PTP and it's opposition were, it's all hearsay that they were losing / gaining support as there was no way to gauge that.

The constitution will be re written again to prevent the likes of Thaksin getting control , but don't tell me, I don't have a vote, I don't need convincing , it's the Thai electorate that decides who gets elected, something a lot of hyper farangs tend to forget ?

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

You ask me if the RTP were deployed on the streets ??? during the protests ??? YES so why didn't the attacks stop You tell me ??

All this police non activity was a ploy ---Yingluck wanted conflict at the time to gain popularity ---it was HER/Shin police, can you explain why they were not involved ??? I will say the same as BKK red mob siege time. Why didn't they intervene ??? why had the army to get in on the act ???

It all went wrong then and it all went wrong this time-----call it SHIN brains backfire.

Yingluck tried her hand through Thaksin to try the game of snap election---and I posted before it was to regain control and 180 day rule expired to get Thaksin his pardon.

Thailand erupted because of this master plan backfired. PTP did shoot themselves in the foot. Army situation again and the minority complains on TVF shy because the Shins lost out. Again.

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

eh? That was exactly the situation except that the PDRC, Democrats, courts, and EC all acted together to undermine the 'situation'.

[ginjag]

Who are the progressives? Does the 'elite' not include Thaksin, his family and other wealthy cronies? I think people were warned of Thaksin's deep desire to be a dictator and establish a family dictatorship a long time ago. Elite? Off course he is.

thaksin is not a progressive.

yes thaksin is an elite, too

thaksin is a not a true democrat and only supports democratic ideas because he knows how to win elections. I was not referring to him and do not usually mean Thaksin when using the term 'elite'.

No, the elite are the same right-wingers that have been around for over 100 years and who have married themselves to the generals in an anti-democratic alliance since the 50s.

the current fight is IMO between elites and democracy - as usual - gets run over in the process.

There are real democrats (progressives) in Thailand and I wish them well.

What a load of old cobblers.

Call a spade a spade without all this BS.......Thaksin is a control freak, won 2 elections got thrown out of two PMs jobs.

Money and self importance --look at me --look who I am--a Shin characteristic..... With his BS and enormous wealth he bought, and promised so much to gain his popularity, he is that much of a nutter he thinks he can still control, but that all fell flat as he only had nutters here to do his work.

Cut out the elite gimmickry it's past it's sell by date.

what is "elite gimmickry'?

Because the word is used to express different types persons and no one comes up with a proper elite list..

Who is included Abhisit--Thaksin--mega business persons---military VIPs--- over years all these persons and similar ones were classed as elites.

Summing up when do we use the word elite and include who ???

[ginjag]

my conscience is clear about how and what I write. How about you ??? look at the stick you receive, your last post was answered by someone I don't know or contact but he gave the same response as me. unlike your clan---yes them they only put a like sometimes.

You hadn't the gorm to mention Thaksins Brother in law who controlled the police.

95 % was not involved directly NO you are correct but blind to the fact of 95% were very concerned and feared for all major cities getting involved.

But you dismissed this and said the army used it as an excuse-------your getting further into a hole you soon cannot climb out of come on I think you are better than this.

I hadn't the gorm? Actually I didn't know that to be honest and the cops were useless from day one as well, but I wasn't talking about their ineptness I was pointing out to you and others that the Army were present on the streets at the same time but STILL attacks occurred, so what you're saying then is that's a lie?

Simple question for you to answer Ginjag, were the RTA deployed on the streets of Bangkok during the protests yes or No?

Second question, did the attacks stop?

I am simply questioning their responsibility in all these attacks?

Thank you for your kind words about being better though, however my conscience is very clear as I've not affiliation not support for ANY Thai party or Group, they all suck and besides why would I support a group that is for Thais and Perma residents?

I'm just interested in the lies deceit and subterfuge ? and there's plenty going on now and from the previous administration, the PTP needed to be removed and I'll say it again as I have done since day one, it would have been better to do it through the ballot box, as we will never know just how popular and unpopular the PTP and it's opposition were, it's all hearsay that they were losing / gaining support as there was no way to gauge that.

The constitution will be re written again to prevent the likes of Thaksin getting control , but don't tell me, I don't have a vote, I don't need convincing , it's the Thai electorate that decides who gets elected, something a lot of hyper farangs tend to forget ?

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

You ask me if the RTP were deployed on the streets ??? during the protests ??? YES so why didn't the attacks stop You tell me ??

All this police non activity was a ploy ---Yingluck wanted conflict at the time to gain popularity ---it was HER/Shin police, can you explain why they were not involved ??? I will say the same as BKK red mob siege time. Why didn't they intervene ??? why had the army to get in on the act ???

It all went wrong then and it all went wrong this time-----call it SHIN brains backfire.

Yingluck tried her hand through Thaksin to try the game of snap election---and I posted before it was to regain control and 180 day rule expired to get Thaksin his pardon.

Thailand erupted because of this master plan backfired. PTP did shoot themselves in the foot. Army situation again and the minority complains on TVF shy because the Shins lost out. Again.

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

eh? That was exactly the situation except that the PDRC, Democrats, courts, and EC all acted together to undermine the 'situation'.

Complete rubbish. PTP elected cheated--amnesty--shot itself in the foot. blame who you like. Undermine what situation ??? are you admitting there was one ???

[fab4]

Altering a bill between first and second readings is wrong and unconstitutional. Telling the opposition that the bill will not be tabled until the following day and that they may as well go home, then voting on it at 4am is wrong. The fact that the alteration of the bill included amnesty for Thaksin and 25,000 other criminal charges was a disgrace that even Weng is acknowledging.

I'm sorry, is this some kind of alternative reality where your version of events happened, or is it what you are spoon fed to believe and you swallowed it wholesale?

In real life, parliament debated the Amnesty Bill in the final reading for 19 hours and then the Democrat Party, aka the "opposition", boycotted the vote and walked out.

The bill passed by 310 votes to 0 in Thailand's lower house on Friday after the opposition Democrat Party boycotted the vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24802596

The 500-member House of Representatives passed the bill after 19 hours of acrimonious debate, which culminated in the entire opposition walking out of the chamber and refusing to vote. The bill was then passed with the 310 members from the pro-Thaksin ruling coalition left in the house voting for it and no votes against. It must now be approved by the Senate to become law.

http://http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1345268/thai-parliament-moves-closer-approving-amnesty-bill

and when they say acrimonious they mean acrimonious, here's a sample of a dem MP's debating technique earlier in the debate

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/9556039001_629b2c9050_o.jpg

“an angry Democrat MP grabs the throat of a parliamentary police officer

called in to restore order on the opposition benches of the Democrat Party”

There are also video's of the petulant dem MP's "debating" here;

and here (around 2'14" in is where they start getting real antsy)

and that was just over the procedural vote (http://asiancorrespondent.com/83524/democrat-party-antics-in-parliament/, http://asiancorrespondent.com/112214/democrat-party-antics-in-thai-parliament-part-2/)

[ginjag]

Altering a bill between first and second readings is wrong and unconstitutional. Telling the opposition that the bill will not be tabled until the following day and that they may as well go home, then voting on it at 4am is wrong. The fact that the alteration of the bill included amnesty for Thaksin and 25,000 other criminal charges was a disgrace that even Weng is acknowledging.

I'm sorry, is this some kind of alternative reality where your version of events happened, or is it what you are spoon fed to believe and you swallowed it wholesale?

In real life, parliament debated the Amnesty Bill in the final reading for 19 hours and then the Democrat Party, aka the "opposition", boycotted the vote and walked out.

The bill passed by 310 votes to 0 in Thailand's lower house on Friday after the opposition Democrat Party boycotted the vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24802596

The 500-member House of Representatives passed the bill after 19 hours of acrimonious debate, which culminated in the entire opposition walking out of the chamber and refusing to vote. The bill was then passed with the 310 members from the pro-Thaksin ruling coalition left in the house voting for it and no votes against. It must now be approved by the Senate to become law.

http://http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1345268/thai-parliament-moves-closer-approving-amnesty-bill

and when they say acrimonious they mean acrimonious, here's a sample of a dem MP's debating technique earlier in the debate

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/9556039001_629b2c9050_o.jpg

“an angry Democrat MP grabs the throat of a parliamentary police officer

called in to restore order on the opposition benches of the Democrat Party”

There are also video's of the petulant dem MP's "debating" here;

and here (around 2'14" in is where they start getting real antsy)

and that was just over the procedural vote (http://asiancorrespondent.com/83524/democrat-party-antics-in-parliament/, http://asiancorrespondent.com/112214/democrat-party-antics-in-thai-parliament-part-2/)

So after all that footage, what was the original problem for massive decent ??? No do not try to tell me --you know ??? wasn't it to give Thaksin complete pardon and pave the way for his return. Simple isn't it.

Proof when you think you have complete monopoly a minority can topple you.

[Ricardo]

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

eh? That was exactly the situation except that the PDRC, Democrats, courts, and EC all acted together to undermine the 'situation'.

Whereas the Reds, declaring in front of then-PM Yingluck that they wanted a Peoples' Democratic Republic of Lanna, with an army of half-a-million to fight for it, that wasn't undermining the situation or the government ?

And CAPO under Chalerm or the DSI under Tarit, threatening all-and-sundry with arrest or confiscation-of-assets, for simply peacefully protesting, and also failing to criticise or prevent repeated acts of violence against the protests, were they too merely maintaining the status-quo or did they have the opposite effect of destabilising things ?

I doubt that the public response would have been so overwhelming, following the late-changes to the Amnesty-Bill, had they not been imposed so unfairly (after the first reading) and clearly to benefit the PTP's leader, and then rushed through to the final vote at 4am. That surely also undermined an already-difficult situation ?

Let's try to be balanced, and show the full picture, not just one side eh ?

[rametindallas]

Would have happend? You know this for a fact?

It's an assumption and speculation nothing more from you and others.

Your words were to stop the slaughter on the streets, had you our to stop a potential slaughter on the streets, you would have again been more accurate in your posting. But speculative at that.

It's the same as stating it would have started a civil war, well you can't start something that's already taking place, which is the civil war ongoing in the South. Again it's nothing more than speculation, and let's be blunt shall we, the tens of thousands of red recruits was a red herring, otherwise they would all have been rounded up and enjoying the RTA hospitality suites, he'll even some of the UDD shyt bags are still enjoying their liberty so it wasn't that much of a threat was it?

Oncoming violence ? An assumption nothing more, terrorist threats are like the weather, they say one thing and something else occurs less significant, 10 years in Iraq hearing the same rhetoric from Sunni and Shia scum bags and nothing coming to fruition when stated has taught me to be cynical and cautious over threats of such actions Ginjag.

Smart terrorists don't tend to broadcast their future intentions either ?

I'll answer it as you are incapable of deleting over load ---You do not say who you are answering but it doesn't matter, you posted nothing interesting, not even agreed on anything, because your not supposed to. The rhetoric again ??

All Thailand feared at the time was all out street fighting, and foreigners.

YOU have to answer this way and it does cast the denial thing over and over again.

My guess is that over 90% was expecting big gang street fighting. YOU --NO ??? You posted a load of tripe to counter my answer to some similar bizarre post.

Where are you getting the 90% from? Considering 95% of the country wasn't affected by the protests in the slightest !!

So I posted tripe and your being factual? Pot and kettle methinks as your rambling like a maniac too but it's fun reading your factual posts ?

Just so you know, I would never call your posts 'tripe'. I would use the word 'offal'.

[tbthailand]

I hadn't the gorm? Actually I didn't know that to be honest and the cops were useless from day one as well, but I wasn't talking about their ineptness I was pointing out to you and others that the Army were present on the streets at the same time but STILL attacks occurred, so what you're saying then is that's a lie?

Simple question for you to answer Ginjag, were the RTA deployed on the streets of Bangkok during the protests yes or No?

Second question, did the attacks stop?

I am simply questioning their responsibility in all these attacks?

Thank you for your kind words about being better though, however my conscience is very clear as I've not affiliation not support for ANY Thai party or Group, they all suck and besides why would I support a group that is for Thais and Perma residents?

I'm just interested in the lies deceit and subterfuge ? and there's plenty going on now and from the previous administration, the PTP needed to be removed and I'll say it again as I have done since day one, it would have been better to do it through the ballot box, as we will never know just how popular and unpopular the PTP and it's opposition were, it's all hearsay that they were losing / gaining support as there was no way to gauge that.

The constitution will be re written again to prevent the likes of Thaksin getting control , but don't tell me, I don't have a vote, I don't need convincing , it's the Thai electorate that decides who gets elected, something a lot of hyper farangs tend to forget ?

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

You ask me if the RTP were deployed on the streets ??? during the protests ??? YES so why didn't the attacks stop You tell me ??

All this police non activity was a ploy ---Yingluck wanted conflict at the time to gain popularity ---it was HER/Shin police, can you explain why they were not involved ??? I will say the same as BKK red mob siege time. Why didn't they intervene ??? why had the army to get in on the act ???

It all went wrong then and it all went wrong this time-----call it SHIN brains backfire.

Yingluck tried her hand through Thaksin to try the game of snap election---and I posted before it was to regain control and 180 day rule expired to get Thaksin his pardon.

Thailand erupted because of this master plan backfired. PTP did shoot themselves in the foot. Army situation again and the minority complains on TVF shy because the Shins lost out. Again.

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

eh? That was exactly the situation except that the PDRC, Democrats, courts, and EC all acted together to undermine the 'situation'.

Complete rubbish. PTP elected cheated--amnesty--shot itself in the foot. blame who you like. Undermine what situation ??? are you admitting there was one ???

it's hardly 'rubbish'.

elections were called, and the anti-democrats/PRDC disrupted the elections. The (anti-) Election Committee did their best to not hold elections. Elections were then scheduled for the summer and then came an 'intervention'.

The PTP did shoot themselves in the foot regarding the amnesty bill - the final version was a stupid idea.

But the 'intervention' was going to happen any way. The 'intervention' had nothing to do with the amnesty bill. The reason for the 'intervention' is crystal clear.

[rametindallas]

Who are the progressives? Does the 'elite' not include Thaksin, his family and other wealthy cronies? I think people were warned of Thaksin's deep desire to be a dictator and establish a family dictatorship a long time ago. Elite? Off course he is.

thaksin is not a progressive.

yes thaksin is an elite, too

thaksin is a not a true democrat and only supports democratic ideas because he knows how to win elections. I was not referring to him and do not usually mean Thaksin when using the term 'elite'.

No, the elite are the same right-wingers that have been around for over 100 years and who have married themselves to the generals in an anti-democratic alliance since the 50s.

the current fight is IMO between elites and democracy - as usual - gets run over in the process.

There are real democrats (progressives) in Thailand and I wish them well.

What a load of old cobblers.

Call a spade a spade without all this BS.......Thaksin is a control freak, won 2 elections got thrown out of two PMs jobs.

Money and self importance --look at me --look who I am--a Shin characteristic..... With his BS and enormous wealth he bought, and promised so much to gain his popularity, he is that much of a nutter he thinks he can still control, but that all fell flat as he only had nutters here to do his work.

Cut out the elite gimmickry it's past it's sell by date.

what is "elite gimmickry'?

It is fictitious imagery used to promote the idea that those who have built long-established businesses want to keep the masses from having true democracy while Dr. Thaksin is the only person who uses his wealth to fight for the poor to have democracy. In other words, it is a propaganda tool.

The reason this is propaganda is because Dr. Thaksin is and was, just like any other capitalist who wants to increase his net worth and scope of influence and his only distinction was that he paid lip service to the idea of democracy and empowerment of the poor while, in the background, was using the power of his office to enrich himself more that the establishment capitalists combined.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln

Dr. Thaksin seems to have missed that quote or never heard it.

[robblok]

it's hardly 'rubbish'.

elections were called, and the anti-democrats/PRDC disrupted the elections. The (anti-) Election Committee did their best to not hold elections. Elections were then scheduled for the summer and then came an 'intervention'.

The PTP did shoot themselves in the foot regarding the amnesty bill - the final version was a stupid idea.

But the 'intervention' was going to happen any way. The 'intervention' had nothing to do with the amnesty bill. The reason for the 'intervention' is crystal clear.

without the amnesty there would not be any protesters on the street who would be slaughtered by the reds. So no intervention needed. It was just this that made it all happen. We can only say... thank Thaksin for being so stupid and making this all happen.

[ginjag]

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

You ask me if the RTP were deployed on the streets ??? during the protests ??? YES so why didn't the attacks stop You tell me ??

All this police non activity was a ploy ---Yingluck wanted conflict at the time to gain popularity ---it was HER/Shin police, can you explain why they were not involved ??? I will say the same as BKK red mob siege time. Why didn't they intervene ??? why had the army to get in on the act ???

It all went wrong then and it all went wrong this time-----call it SHIN brains backfire.

Yingluck tried her hand through Thaksin to try the game of snap election---and I posted before it was to regain control and 180 day rule expired to get Thaksin his pardon.

Thailand erupted because of this master plan backfired. PTP did shoot themselves in the foot. Army situation again and the minority complains on TVF shy because the Shins lost out. Again.

Hey come on we are ALL aware it would be nice coming through the ballot box. But you know this was not that situation.

eh? That was exactly the situation except that the PDRC, Democrats, courts, and EC all acted together to undermine the 'situation'.

Complete rubbish. PTP elected cheated--amnesty--shot itself in the foot. blame who you like. Undermine what situation ??? are you admitting there was one ???

it's hardly 'rubbish'.

elections were called, and the anti-democrats/PRDC disrupted the elections. The (anti-) Election Committee did their best to not hold elections. Elections were then scheduled for the summer and then came an 'intervention'.

The PTP did shoot themselves in the foot regarding the amnesty bill - the final version was a stupid idea.

But the 'intervention' was going to happen any way. The 'intervention' had nothing to do with the amnesty bill. The reason for the 'intervention' is crystal clear.

Yingluck tried a quick FEB election ??? maybe I am wrong. This was not never about elections do not BS. It was about deceiving Thailand.

How do you know the intervention was to happen ?? because it was found the red army and armed were on their way to BKK......this is why it happened to stop the mega turmoil on top of what we had.

If the final version was a stupid idea, why blame the army. blame Thaksin and his red militia.

[Baerboxer]

Altering a bill between first and second readings is wrong and unconstitutional. Telling the opposition that the bill will not be tabled until the following day and that they may as well go home, then voting on it at 4am is wrong. The fact that the alteration of the bill included amnesty for Thaksin and 25,000 other criminal charges was a disgrace that even Weng is acknowledging.

I'm sorry, is this some kind of alternative reality where your version of events happened, or is it what you are spoon fed to believe and you swallowed it wholesale?

In real life, parliament debated the Amnesty Bill in the final reading for 19 hours and then the Democrat Party, aka the "opposition", boycotted the vote and walked out.

The bill passed by 310 votes to 0 in Thailand's lower house on Friday after the opposition Democrat Party boycotted the vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24802596

The 500-member House of Representatives passed the bill after 19 hours of acrimonious debate, which culminated in the entire opposition walking out of the chamber and refusing to vote. The bill was then passed with the 310 members from the pro-Thaksin ruling coalition left in the house voting for it and no votes against. It must now be approved by the Senate to become law.

http://http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1345268/thai-parliament-moves-closer-approving-amnesty-bill

and when they say acrimonious they mean acrimonious, here's a sample of a dem MP's debating technique earlier in the debate

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/9556039001_629b2c9050_o.jpg

“an angry Democrat MP grabs the throat of a parliamentary police officer

called in to restore order on the opposition benches of the Democrat Party”

There are also video's of the petulant dem MP's "debating" here;

and here (around 2'14" in is where they start getting real antsy)

and that was just over the procedural vote (http://asiancorrespondent.com/83524/democrat-party-antics-in-parliament/, http://asiancorrespondent.com/112214/democrat-party-antics-in-thai-parliament-part-2/)

What time was the vote held?

Remember a different vote where PTP told everyone to go home the vote would be the next day. Then voted after the others left?

PTP regularly demonstrated how clever they were at following procedures. Did you forget to include the link showing the illegal voting for absent colleagues?

Edited October 31, 2014 by Baerboxer

[Baerboxer]

Maybe you need to learn a lot. First lesson, Thaksin was convicted by a court. Trials are held in a court of law not in parliament. The 15 outstanding serious criminal charges waiting for his return will also be heard by a court of law, providing he returns before their statute of limitations runs out, which is unlikely. Wonder why he doesn't fight all these charges if he's innocent?

Your homework - check again which government was in power at that time.

Wonder why he doesn't fight all these charges if he's innocent?

I don't know, perhaps he thought that if the junta (at the time) were that determined to "nail" him that they set up a body (AEC) specifically to investigate him, and go the lengths they did just to convict him of conflict of interest for countersigning his wife's legally correct purchase of land in a sealed auction bid, the chance of being receiving a fair and just trial/s in the courts was an unlikely prospect?

Last week, a junta-appointed Assets Examination Committee (AEC) said it would form 20 teams to investigate corruption allegations in Thaksin's administration.

"They are like 20 little armies that will help us search for evidence in each case," says Kaewsan Athibodhi, the committee's secretary-general. "The AEC will be the Army commander."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1024/p07s02-woap.html

Come off it Fabby. One conviction for breaking the law, which he knew he was doing and offered to correct when caught, and 15 serious outstanding charges. Thaksin the Innocent, he of the honest mistake fiasco. How many family members and in-laws have convictions for fraud now?

Maybe more to do with the pastry box failure which might actually mean getting a fair but real trial.

Little sis seems to have got away on the new passport issue though, cousin number 1 too.

[Jonmarleesco]

Arrogance is a mistake common to politicians.

[sscsamui]

The Pheu Thai Party is all washed out and hope it stays that way...We don't need politicians like them and their on the run criminal leader. I am happy that Khun Prayuth is at the helm at this time when Thailand needs Change in a better direction.

I know you got it all wrong thaksin is conviced by illegal government same like the current government

They do not represent the thai pebbles not same like yingluck they are seasing power by treats and violence it will never create stability

The illegal government is going down hill day by day obviously they are not cable of the task and do not wish to listen to the voters there never will or did vote for them and if you understood a little about dictators and democracy you would know this too

I don't mind to much only illegal or legal and as long as every body is not equivalent for the law corruption gonna stay

and a dictator is not and therefore not legally in charge

and legally not able of running the law he doesn't follow himself

I hope you can learn something

Dude.. You are out of your mind.. Stop Lensing to your Isan girlfriend.. Thaksin and Yingluck Paid for there Votes.. That is Not democracy. Thaksin DID commit illegal crimes and abused his power when he was the PM... Wake up... Khun Prayuth is a breath of fresh air.. And has his heart in the right place... For the People of Thailand, All of them. Unlike Thaksin who was afraid of the educated people who understood democracy and could see through BS and brain washing of the uneducated and poor people of Thailand. All the people Of Thailand deserve someone that will do good for the country and not for him self and his family....

[tbthailand]

thaksin is not a progressive.

yes thaksin is an elite, too

thaksin is a not a true democrat and only supports democratic ideas because he knows how to win elections. I was not referring to him and do not usually mean Thaksin when using the term 'elite'.

No, the elite are the same right-wingers that have been around for over 100 years and who have married themselves to the generals in an anti-democratic alliance since the 50s.

the current fight is IMO between elites and democracy - as usual - gets run over in the process.

There are real democrats (progressives) in Thailand and I wish them well.

What a load of old cobblers.

Call a spade a spade without all this BS.......Thaksin is a control freak, won 2 elections got thrown out of two PMs jobs.

Money and self importance --look at me --look who I am--a Shin characteristic..... With his BS and enormous wealth he bought, and promised so much to gain his popularity, he is that much of a nutter he thinks he can still control, but that all fell flat as he only had nutters here to do his work.

Cut out the elite gimmickry it's past it's sell by date.

what is "elite gimmickry'?

It is fictitious imagery used to promote the idea that those who have built long-established businesses want to keep the masses from having true democracy while Dr. Thaksin is the only person who uses his wealth to fight for the poor to have democracy. In other words, it is a propaganda tool.

The reason this is propaganda is because Dr. Thaksin is and was, just like any other capitalist who wants to increase his net worth and scope of influence and his only distinction was that he paid lip service to the idea of democracy and empowerment of the poor while, in the background, was using the power of his office to enrich himself more that the establishment capitalists combined.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln

Dr. Thaksin seems to have missed that quote or never heard it.

I do not agree that the term 'elite' is fictitious imagery, on the other hand...

so I agree in general with your characterization of Thaksin. Yes, he is one of the 'elites' and certainly he was corrupt and enriching himself. Yes, I believe that he only paid lip service to democracy, and that he did so because he could win elections and still can. And while Thaksin certainly was corrupt and enriched himself, I don't agree that Thaksin did so more than all the traditional elites combined.

Also, the poor were empowered, however, IMO not by Thaksin, but by the 1997 constitution.

I use 'elites' as a short hand for elites who are yellow supporters. I also say 'royalists' or royalist-elites sometimes. While Thaksin is not one of the traditional elites in this regard, IMO, Thaksin is not only an elite, but also a royalist. But he created his own power-base apart from the traditional royalist elites. This was clearly something that the traditional elites viewed as a threat.

From what I know of historical events and how the moving parts of the Thai political landscape relate to each other, the current conflict is mostly a power struggle between these 2 general groups of elites. Also, the traditional elites have been in an alliance with the military for a long time, so (in general) the military is aligned with the 'traditional elites'. The end result is that democracy, which works to Thaksin's advantage and which the traditional elites have never liked or wanted, gets sacrificed in this fight precisely because it is a tool that Thaksin wields successfully.

Throughout the last century, there has been a group of people truly dedicated to democracy. But I can't say at all how large or influential this group is at the moment. The 2006 'intervention' brought some of these people to the fore. Some have been part of the red shirts since the beginning. Currently, and precisely because of the last misstep on the amnesty bill, some of this group have either distanced or outright separated themselves from the PTP and some even from the red shirts.

I personally see that as a good development since Thaksin IMO does only give lip service to democracy and he will never truly be a champion for the democratic cause.

Case in point, Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up, defy the junta, declare the coup illegal and illegitimate and not recognized their authority to summon her. Yes, she would have suffered, but unlike other 'guests' of the junta, they would not have dared to actually mistreat her because she is very popular among the people. If she had been willing to do that, it would have been a perfect moment to catalyze the democratic movement in Thailand. But she did not do that and IMO that reveals her true colors as an elite firmly in the lip-service-to-democracy camp.

I think that the amnesty bill in its final form was a huge mistake. And while it provided a trigger for Suthep and Co., it is clear that Suthep would have found an excuse soon enough to do exactly what he did which was to lay the groundwork for the 'intervention'. Given his mouthing off about 'Lining' with the general and the general's interaction with Thaksin, it seems clear that something like this was going to happen. In addition, once the amnesty bill was dead, Suthep and Co. moved on to other topics like the rice deal and corruption in the government to protest about.

Why was it going to happen anyway? Because the elites and the military want/need to be back in power to support & protect their own interests. Not only was time of the essence to them and they likely felt that they could not wait for the next election cycle, but they also understand that under the 2007 constitution, the democrats cannot win an election.

[rametindallas]

what is "elite gimmickry'?

It is fictitious imagery used to promote the idea that those who have built long-established businesses want to keep the masses from having true democracy while Dr. Thaksin is the only person who uses his wealth to fight for the poor to have democracy. In other words, it is a propaganda tool.

The reason this is propaganda is because Dr. Thaksin is and was, just like any other capitalist who wants to increase his net worth and scope of influence and his only distinction was that he paid lip service to the idea of democracy and empowerment of the poor while, in the background, was using the power of his office to enrich himself more that the establishment capitalists combined.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln

Dr. Thaksin seems to have missed that quote or never heard it.

I do not agree that the term 'elite' is fictitious imagery, on the other hand...

so I agree in general with your characterization of Thaksin. Yes, he is one of the 'elites' and certainly he was corrupt and enriching himself. Yes, I believe that he only paid lip service to democracy, and that he did so because he could win elections and still can. And while Thaksin certainly was corrupt and enriched himself, I don't agree that Thaksin did so more than all the traditional elites combined.

Also, the poor were empowered, however, IMO not by Thaksin, but by the 1997 constitution.

I use 'elites' as a short hand for elites who are yellow supporters. I also say 'royalists' or royalist-elites sometimes. While Thaksin is not one of the traditional elites in this regard, IMO, Thaksin is not only an elite, but also a royalist. But he created his own power-base apart from the traditional royalist elites. This was clearly something that the traditional elites viewed as a threat.

From what I know of historical events and how the moving parts of the Thai political landscape relate to each other, the current conflict is mostly a power struggle between these 2 general groups of elites. Also, the traditional elites have been in an alliance with the military for a long time, so (in general) the military is aligned with the 'traditional elites'. The end result is that democracy, which works to Thaksin's advantage and which the traditional elites have never liked or wanted, gets sacrificed in this fight precisely because it is a tool that Thaksin wields successfully.

Throughout the last century, there has been a group of people truly dedicated to democracy. But I can't say at all how large or influential this group is at the moment. The 2006 'intervention' brought some of these people to the fore. Some have been part of the red shirts since the beginning. Currently, and precisely because of the last misstep on the amnesty bill, some of this group have either distanced or outright separated themselves from the PTP and some even from the red shirts.

I personally see that as a good development since Thaksin IMO does only give lip service to democracy and he will never truly be a champion for the democratic cause.

Case in point, Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up, defy the junta, declare the coup illegal and illegitimate and not recognized their authority to summon her. Yes, she would have suffered, but unlike other 'guests' of the junta, they would not have dared to actually mistreat her because she is very popular among the people. If she had been willing to do that, it would have been a perfect moment to catalyze the democratic movement in Thailand. But she did not do that and IMO that reveals her true colors as an elite firmly in the lip-service-to-democracy camp.

I think that the amnesty bill in its final form was a huge mistake. And while it provided a trigger for Suthep and Co., it is clear that Suthep would have found an excuse soon enough to do exactly what he did which was to lay the groundwork for the 'intervention'. Given his mouthing off about 'Lining' with the general and the general's interaction with Thaksin, it seems clear that something like this was going to happen. In addition, once the amnesty bill was dead, Suthep and Co. moved on to other topics like the rice deal and corruption in the government to protest about.

Why was it going to happen anyway? Because the elites and the military want/need to be back in power to support & protect their own interests. Not only was time of the essence to them and they likely felt that they could not wait for the next election cycle, but they also understand that under the 2007 constitution, the democrats cannot win an election.

Not much for even a partisan to disagree with in you post. A clarification, though, and I should have been more specific. By 'elite', I meant that group of Thais who have most of the wealth and power of this country and Dr. Thaksin had only recently joined its higher ranks. My thought, when I said 'fictitious', was that Thaksin had 'the elite' into a great 'boogie man' that was against the people and was purposefully keeping them down (I subscribe to the notion that the elite were fine with the status quo and saw no reason to change the culture that had, for so long, benefited them; benign neglect and not evil entent). Dr. Thaksin saw his opportunity to harness the discontent so prevalent in the poor and disenfranchised for political power and he used it as a 'wedge' issue even though he made no great changes to the system that he was a beneficiary of. The heretofore disenfranchised saw him as their champion among those with the power. Dr. Thaksin, with his media empire, bolstered his image as champion of the poor. He is a masterful propagandist and he developed a 'divide and conquer' strategy that had kept him and his proxies mostly in power since 2001. So, it is 'elites' against 'prai' (serfs).

Dr. Thaksin broke all the 'gentleman's agreements' regarding transfer of power in Thailand when he refused to let others have their turn at the trough and united those against him all by himself. He was not more corrupt than the other 'elite', he was just better at it. IMO, he truly wanted to become like Hun Sen and be President for Life through the manipulation of the democratic process. It almost worked but he made too many enemies and his arrogance blinded him to the coming storm in 2006.

You are 100% correct that the 'blanket' amnesty bill that would have allowed Dr. Thaksin back into politics was the 'bridge too far'. The army had been fine letting PTP loot the country with their 'doomed to fail' Rice Support Scheme and it didn't step in during the violence of the Spring. It wasn't until the gridlock caused by Suthep on the whole country did the army actually act (though I believe they began planning in December when Parliament was dissolved). If PTP had governed honestly for just two years (instead of Infrastructure, Water, and Rice Schemes that were anything but transparent), they would have earned enough good will that could have brought Thaksin home any way they wanted. Unfortunately for the Kingdom, they got busy rewarding themselves for winning the election and failed to govern for all Thai people.

Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up

A last point of disagreement. It has never been in Ms Yingluck's nature to be 'boss' or to 'stand up' against any power authority which is why she was chosen, over her more assertive/experienced sister, to be PM. She was only the mouthpiece of her brother and she does not have the quick wit/tongue of a Suthep or Chalerm. She gets a 'pass' in my book and is another victim of Dr. Thaksin's never ending quest for power.

[tbthailand]

what is "elite gimmickry'?

It is fictitious imagery used to promote the idea that those who have built long-established businesses want to keep the masses from having true democracy while Dr. Thaksin is the only person who uses his wealth to fight for the poor to have democracy. In other words, it is a propaganda tool.

The reason this is propaganda is because Dr. Thaksin is and was, just like any other capitalist who wants to increase his net worth and scope of influence and his only distinction was that he paid lip service to the idea of democracy and empowerment of the poor while, in the background, was using the power of his office to enrich himself more that the establishment capitalists combined.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln

Dr. Thaksin seems to have missed that quote or never heard it.

I do not agree that the term 'elite' is fictitious imagery, on the other hand...

so I agree in general with your characterization of Thaksin. Yes, he is one of the 'elites' and certainly he was corrupt and enriching himself. Yes, I believe that he only paid lip service to democracy, and that he did so because he could win elections and still can. And while Thaksin certainly was corrupt and enriched himself, I don't agree that Thaksin did so more than all the traditional elites combined.

Also, the poor were empowered, however, IMO not by Thaksin, but by the 1997 constitution.

I use 'elites' as a short hand for elites who are yellow supporters. I also say 'royalists' or royalist-elites sometimes. While Thaksin is not one of the traditional elites in this regard, IMO, Thaksin is not only an elite, but also a royalist. But he created his own power-base apart from the traditional royalist elites. This was clearly something that the traditional elites viewed as a threat.

From what I know of historical events and how the moving parts of the Thai political landscape relate to each other, the current conflict is mostly a power struggle between these 2 general groups of elites. Also, the traditional elites have been in an alliance with the military for a long time, so (in general) the military is aligned with the 'traditional elites'. The end result is that democracy, which works to Thaksin's advantage and which the traditional elites have never liked or wanted, gets sacrificed in this fight precisely because it is a tool that Thaksin wields successfully.

Throughout the last century, there has been a group of people truly dedicated to democracy. But I can't say at all how large or influential this group is at the moment. The 2006 'intervention' brought some of these people to the fore. Some have been part of the red shirts since the beginning. Currently, and precisely because of the last misstep on the amnesty bill, some of this group have either distanced or outright separated themselves from the PTP and some even from the red shirts.

I personally see that as a good development since Thaksin IMO does only give lip service to democracy and he will never truly be a champion for the democratic cause.

Case in point, Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up, defy the junta, declare the coup illegal and illegitimate and not recognized their authority to summon her. Yes, she would have suffered, but unlike other 'guests' of the junta, they would not have dared to actually mistreat her because she is very popular among the people. If she had been willing to do that, it would have been a perfect moment to catalyze the democratic movement in Thailand. But she did not do that and IMO that reveals her true colors as an elite firmly in the lip-service-to-democracy camp.

I think that the amnesty bill in its final form was a huge mistake. And while it provided a trigger for Suthep and Co., it is clear that Suthep would have found an excuse soon enough to do exactly what he did which was to lay the groundwork for the 'intervention'. Given his mouthing off about 'Lining' with the general and the general's interaction with Thaksin, it seems clear that something like this was going to happen. In addition, once the amnesty bill was dead, Suthep and Co. moved on to other topics like the rice deal and corruption in the government to protest about.

Why was it going to happen anyway? Because the elites and the military want/need to be back in power to support & protect their own interests. Not only was time of the essence to them and they likely felt that they could not wait for the next election cycle, but they also understand that under the 2007 constitution, the democrats cannot win an election.

Not much for even a partisan to disagree with in you post. A clarification, though, and I should have been more specific. By 'elite', I meant that group of Thais who have most of the wealth and power of this country and Dr. Thaksin had only recently joined its higher ranks. My thought, when I said 'fictitious', was that Thaksin had 'the elite' into a great 'boogie man' that was against the people and was purposefully keeping them down (I subscribe to the notion that the elite were fine with the status quo and saw no reason to change the culture that had, for so long, benefited them; benign neglect and not evil entent). Dr. Thaksin saw his opportunity to harness the discontent so prevalent in the poor and disenfranchised for political power and he used it as a 'wedge' issue even though he made no great changes to the system that he was a beneficiary of. The heretofore disenfranchised saw him as their champion among those with the power. Dr. Thaksin, with his media empire, bolstered his image as champion of the poor. He is a masterful propagandist and he developed a 'divide and conquer' strategy that had kept him and his proxies mostly in power since 2001. So, it is 'elites' against 'prai' (serfs).

Dr. Thaksin broke all the 'gentleman's agreements' regarding transfer of power in Thailand when he refused to let others have their turn at the trough and united those against him all by himself. He was not more corrupt than the other 'elite', he was just better at it. IMO, he truly wanted to become like Hun Sen and be President for Life through the manipulation of the democratic process. It almost worked but he made too many enemies and his arrogance blinded him to the coming storm in 2006.

You are 100% correct that the 'blanket' amnesty bill that would have allowed Dr. Thaksin back into politics was the 'bridge too far'. The army had been fine letting PTP loot the country with their 'doomed to fail' Rice Support Scheme and it didn't step in during the violence of the Spring. It wasn't until the gridlock caused by Suthep on the whole country did the army actually act (though I believe they began planning in December when Parliament was dissolved). If PTP had governed honestly for just two years (instead of Infrastructure, Water, and Rice Schemes that were anything but transparent), they would have earned enough good will that could have brought Thaksin home any way they wanted. Unfortunately for the Kingdom, they got busy rewarding themselves for winning the election and failed to govern for all Thai people.

Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up

A last point of disagreement. It has never been in Ms Yingluck's nature to be 'boss' or to 'stand up' against any power authority which is why she was chosen, over her more assertive/experienced sister, to be PM. She was only the mouthpiece of her brother and she does not have the quick wit/tongue of a Suthep or Chalerm. She gets a 'pass' in my book and is another victim of Dr. Thaksin's never ending quest for power.

with regard to thaksin, we probably agree on most things. Although, as one of the poster has pointed out, the balance of spending by the government started to shift away from Bangkok to the provinces - and there are quite a few Thais who don't have a lot of means and can see that his policies were helping more people - they also see that he was not perfect. But in the end, many many people I know have uttered the sentiment of 'respect my vote' during the Suthep protests. As you can imagine, 'utter' applies because many Thais do not go into details on politics. Although I did hear a few rather pointedly say Suthep was a 'bad man'. Which IMO is also true.

As for Yingluck, I think that she had that opportunity. She was and is more popular than her brother, which she surely understands. And she would have seen the 'intervention' coming from a mile away which would have given her time to prepare. The fact that she did not leverage her popularity and seize the moment, makes me more or less agree with your assessment.

As for your point about the army, my guess is that the planning began at least in December. Personally, I think the (royalist) elites and the military were horrified when Yingluck won in 2011 and were looking to take out her government from the first day. Suthep's bragging post-intervention adds to that impression. But even without it, I seriously wondered back in 2011 if the PTP would make it until another election.

[ginjag]

Not much for even a partisan to disagree with in you post. A clarification, though, and I should have been more specific. By 'elite', I meant that group of Thais who have most of the wealth and power of this country and Dr. Thaksin had only recently joined its higher ranks. My thought, when I said 'fictitious', was that Thaksin had 'the elite' into a great 'boogie man' that was against the people and was purposefully keeping them down (I subscribe to the notion that the elite were fine with the status quo and saw no reason to change the culture that had, for so long, benefited them; benign neglect and not evil entent). Dr. Thaksin saw his opportunity to harness the discontent so prevalent in the poor and disenfranchised for political power and he used it as a 'wedge' issue even though he made no great changes to the system that he was a beneficiary of. The heretofore disenfranchised saw him as their champion among those with the power. Dr. Thaksin, with his media empire, bolstered his image as champion of the poor. He is a masterful propagandist and he developed a 'divide and conquer' strategy that had kept him and his proxies mostly in power since 2001. So, it is 'elites' against 'prai' (serfs).

Dr. Thaksin broke all the 'gentleman's agreements' regarding transfer of power in Thailand when he refused to let others have their turn at the trough and united those against him all by himself. He was not more corrupt than the other 'elite', he was just better at it. IMO, he truly wanted to become like Hun Sen and be President for Life through the manipulation of the democratic process. It almost worked but he made too many enemies and his arrogance blinded him to the coming storm in 2006.

You are 100% correct that the 'blanket' amnesty bill that would have allowed Dr. Thaksin back into politics was the 'bridge too far'. The army had been fine letting PTP loot the country with their 'doomed to fail' Rice Support Scheme and it didn't step in during the violence of the Spring. It wasn't until the gridlock caused by Suthep on the whole country did the army actually act (though I believe they began planning in December when Parliament was dissolved). If PTP had governed honestly for just two years (instead of Infrastructure, Water, and Rice Schemes that were anything but transparent), they would have earned enough good will that could have brought Thaksin home any way they wanted. Unfortunately for the Kingdom, they got busy rewarding themselves for winning the election and failed to govern for all Thai people.

Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up

A last point of disagreement. It has never been in Ms Yingluck's nature to be 'boss' or to 'stand up' against any power authority which is why she was chosen, over her more assertive/experienced sister, to be PM. She was only the mouthpiece of her brother and she does not have the quick wit/tongue of a Suthep or Chalerm. She gets a 'pass' in my book and is another victim of Dr. Thaksin's never ending quest for power.

with regard to thaksin, we probably agree on most things. Although, as one of the poster has pointed out, the balance of spending by the government started to shift away from Bangkok to the provinces - and there are quite a few Thais who don't have a lot of means and can see that his policies were helping more people - they also see that he was not perfect. But in the end, many many people I know have uttered the sentiment of 'respect my vote' during the Suthep protests. As you can imagine, 'utter' applies because many Thais do not go into details on politics. Although I did hear a few rather pointedly say Suthep was a 'bad man'. Which IMO is also true.

As for Yingluck, I think that she had that opportunity. She was and is more popular than her brother, which she surely understands. And she would have seen the 'intervention' coming from a mile away which would have given her time to prepare. The fact that she did not leverage her popularity and seize the moment, makes me more or less agree with your assessment.

As for your point about the army, my guess is that the planning began at least in December. Personally, I think the (royalist) elites and the military were horrified when Yingluck won in 2011 and were looking to take out her government from the first day. Suthep's bragging post-intervention adds to that impression. But even without it, I seriously wondered back in 2011 if the PTP would make it until another election.

I wasn't surprised they won, but didn't realize they would be stupid enough to throw the election away and govern undemocratically, Thaksins brains for you ??? you would have thought he could have kept the ship sailing, but he got too big for his breaches again (I stress) repeating his previous PM-ship.

[tbthailand]

Not much for even a partisan to disagree with in you post. A clarification, though, and I should have been more specific. By 'elite', I meant that group of Thais who have most of the wealth and power of this country and Dr. Thaksin had only recently joined its higher ranks. My thought, when I said 'fictitious', was that Thaksin had 'the elite' into a great 'boogie man' that was against the people and was purposefully keeping them down (I subscribe to the notion that the elite were fine with the status quo and saw no reason to change the culture that had, for so long, benefited them; benign neglect and not evil entent). Dr. Thaksin saw his opportunity to harness the discontent so prevalent in the poor and disenfranchised for political power and he used it as a 'wedge' issue even though he made no great changes to the system that he was a beneficiary of. The heretofore disenfranchised saw him as their champion among those with the power. Dr. Thaksin, with his media empire, bolstered his image as champion of the poor. He is a masterful propagandist and he developed a 'divide and conquer' strategy that had kept him and his proxies mostly in power since 2001. So, it is 'elites' against 'prai' (serfs).

Dr. Thaksin broke all the 'gentleman's agreements' regarding transfer of power in Thailand when he refused to let others have their turn at the trough and united those against him all by himself. He was not more corrupt than the other 'elite', he was just better at it. IMO, he truly wanted to become like Hun Sen and be President for Life through the manipulation of the democratic process. It almost worked but he made too many enemies and his arrogance blinded him to the coming storm in 2006.

You are 100% correct that the 'blanket' amnesty bill that would have allowed Dr. Thaksin back into politics was the 'bridge too far'. The army had been fine letting PTP loot the country with their 'doomed to fail' Rice Support Scheme and it didn't step in during the violence of the Spring. It wasn't until the gridlock caused by Suthep on the whole country did the army actually act (though I believe they began planning in December when Parliament was dissolved). If PTP had governed honestly for just two years (instead of Infrastructure, Water, and Rice Schemes that were anything but transparent), they would have earned enough good will that could have brought Thaksin home any way they wanted. Unfortunately for the Kingdom, they got busy rewarding themselves for winning the election and failed to govern for all Thai people.

Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up

A last point of disagreement. It has never been in Ms Yingluck's nature to be 'boss' or to 'stand up' against any power authority which is why she was chosen, over her more assertive/experienced sister, to be PM. She was only the mouthpiece of her brother and she does not have the quick wit/tongue of a Suthep or Chalerm. She gets a 'pass' in my book and is another victim of Dr. Thaksin's never ending quest for power.

with regard to thaksin, we probably agree on most things. Although, as one of the poster has pointed out, the balance of spending by the government started to shift away from Bangkok to the provinces - and there are quite a few Thais who don't have a lot of means and can see that his policies were helping more people - they also see that he was not perfect. But in the end, many many people I know have uttered the sentiment of 'respect my vote' during the Suthep protests. As you can imagine, 'utter' applies because many Thais do not go into details on politics. Although I did hear a few rather pointedly say Suthep was a 'bad man'. Which IMO is also true.

As for Yingluck, I think that she had that opportunity. She was and is more popular than her brother, which she surely understands. And she would have seen the 'intervention' coming from a mile away which would have given her time to prepare. The fact that she did not leverage her popularity and seize the moment, makes me more or less agree with your assessment.

As for your point about the army, my guess is that the planning began at least in December. Personally, I think the (royalist) elites and the military were horrified when Yingluck won in 2011 and were looking to take out her government from the first day. Suthep's bragging post-intervention adds to that impression. But even without it, I seriously wondered back in 2011 if the PTP would make it until another election.

I wasn't surprised they won, but didn't realize they would be stupid enough to throw the election away and govern undemocratically, Thaksins brains for you ??? you would have thought he could have kept the ship sailing, but he got too big for his breaches again (I stress) repeating his previous PM-ship.

govern undemocratically is one of those crazy statements from folks who think that military 'can-use-the-d-word'-ships are better than an elected government.

[ginjag]

Not much for even a partisan to disagree with in you post. A clarification, though, and I should have been more specific. By 'elite', I meant that group of Thais who have most of the wealth and power of this country and Dr. Thaksin had only recently joined its higher ranks. My thought, when I said 'fictitious', was that Thaksin had 'the elite' into a great 'boogie man' that was against the people and was purposefully keeping them down (I subscribe to the notion that the elite were fine with the status quo and saw no reason to change the culture that had, for so long, benefited them; benign neglect and not evil entent). Dr. Thaksin saw his opportunity to harness the discontent so prevalent in the poor and disenfranchised for political power and he used it as a 'wedge' issue even though he made no great changes to the system that he was a beneficiary of. The heretofore disenfranchised saw him as their champion among those with the power. Dr. Thaksin, with his media empire, bolstered his image as champion of the poor. He is a masterful propagandist and he developed a 'divide and conquer' strategy that had kept him and his proxies mostly in power since 2001. So, it is 'elites' against 'prai' (serfs).

Dr. Thaksin broke all the 'gentleman's agreements' regarding transfer of power in Thailand when he refused to let others have their turn at the trough and united those against him all by himself. He was not more corrupt than the other 'elite', he was just better at it. IMO, he truly wanted to become like Hun Sen and be President for Life through the manipulation of the democratic process. It almost worked but he made too many enemies and his arrogance blinded him to the coming storm in 2006.

You are 100% correct that the 'blanket' amnesty bill that would have allowed Dr. Thaksin back into politics was the 'bridge too far'. The army had been fine letting PTP loot the country with their 'doomed to fail' Rice Support Scheme and it didn't step in during the violence of the Spring. It wasn't until the gridlock caused by Suthep on the whole country did the army actually act (though I believe they began planning in December when Parliament was dissolved). If PTP had governed honestly for just two years (instead of Infrastructure, Water, and Rice Schemes that were anything but transparent), they would have earned enough good will that could have brought Thaksin home any way they wanted. Unfortunately for the Kingdom, they got busy rewarding themselves for winning the election and failed to govern for all Thai people.

Yingluck had a perfect opportunity with the coup to stand up

A last point of disagreement. It has never been in Ms Yingluck's nature to be 'boss' or to 'stand up' against any power authority which is why she was chosen, over her more assertive/experienced sister, to be PM. She was only the mouthpiece of her brother and she does not have the quick wit/tongue of a Suthep or Chalerm. She gets a 'pass' in my book and is another victim of Dr. Thaksin's never ending quest for power.

with regard to thaksin, we probably agree on most things. Although, as one of the poster has pointed out, the balance of spending by the government started to shift away from Bangkok to the provinces - and there are quite a few Thais who don't have a lot of means and can see that his policies were helping more people - they also see that he was not perfect. But in the end, many many people I know have uttered the sentiment of 'respect my vote' during the Suthep protests. As you can imagine, 'utter' applies because many Thais do not go into details on politics. Although I did hear a few rather pointedly say Suthep was a 'bad man'. Which IMO is also true.

As for Yingluck, I think that she had that opportunity. She was and is more popular than her brother, which she surely understands. And she would have seen the 'intervention' coming from a mile away which would have given her time to prepare. The fact that she did not leverage her popularity and seize the moment, makes me more or less agree with your assessment.

As for your point about the army, my guess is that the planning began at least in December. Personally, I think the (royalist) elites and the military were horrified when Yingluck won in 2011 and were looking to take out her government from the first day. Suthep's bragging post-intervention adds to that impression. But even without it, I seriously wondered back in 2011 if the PTP would make it until another election.

I wasn't surprised they won, but didn't realize they would be stupid enough to throw the election away and govern undemocratically, Thaksins brains for you ??? you would have thought he could have kept the ship sailing, but he got too big for his breaches again (I stress) repeating his previous PM-ship.

govern undemocratically is one of those crazy statements from folks who think that military 'can-use-the-d-word'-ships are better than an elected government.

Govern undemocratically they did---NOT a crazy statement. Forget the military element. Topic is PTP. and what they did.

You want to be in denial OK, but stay on topic. Elected government in the case of PTP proved that it does not guarantee good governing. They proved that. ADMIT IT without the army BS.

[See the bears]

Govern undemocratically they did---NOT a crazy statement. Forget the military element. Topic is PTP. and what they did.

You want to be in denial OK, but stay on topic. Elected government in the case of PTP proved that it does not guarantee good governing. They proved that. ADMIT IT without the army BS.

They won a very convincing victory at the polls on the back of many election promises. These included bringing back Thaksin Shinawatra, which was regularly mentioned on the election trail. Also, the rice scheme, tablets, car scheme, minimum wage, infrastructure spending...were all clearly laid out for the voters to see. Afer elected they carried through with or were in the process of carrying through with these. How is that "governing undemocratically"?

"The Puea Thai Party, aligned with exiled ex-Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his red-shirt supporters, vowed Monday to bring Thaksin home to re-start his work for the nation, reports Thai News Agency (TNA)."

[binjalin]

Govern undemocratically they did---NOT a crazy statement. Forget the military element. Topic is PTP. and what they did.

You want to be in denial OK, but stay on topic. Elected government in the case of PTP proved that it does not guarantee good governing. They proved that. ADMIT IT without the army BS.

They won a very convincing victory at the polls on the back of many election promises. These included bringing back Thaksin Shinawatra, which was regularly mentioned on the election trail. Also, the rice scheme, tablets, car scheme, minimum wage, infrastructure spending...were all clearly laid out for the voters to see. Afer elected they carried through with or were in the process of carrying through with these. How is that "governing undemocratically"?

"The Puea Thai Party, aligned with exiled ex-Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his red-shirt supporters, vowed Monday to bring Thaksin home to re-start his work for the nation, reports Thai News Agency (TNA)."

like it or not this is true and would be true today

the basic fact is that the yellows have a much smaller support base than the reds and that will remain so. Now if a better organised and educated party came along to represent the 'masses' this might change

[ginjag]

Govern undemocratically they did---NOT a crazy statement. Forget the military element. Topic is PTP. and what they did.

You want to be in denial OK, but stay on topic. Elected government in the case of PTP proved that it does not guarantee good governing. They proved that. ADMIT IT without the army BS.

They won a very convincing victory at the polls on the back of many election promises. These included bringing back Thaksin Shinawatra, which was regularly mentioned on the election trail. Also, the rice scheme, tablets, car scheme, minimum wage, infrastructure spending...were all clearly laid out for the voters to see. Afer elected they carried through with or were in the process of carrying through with these. How is that "governing undemocratically"?

"The Puea Thai Party, aligned with exiled ex-Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his red-shirt supporters, vowed Monday to bring Thaksin home to re-start his work for the nation, reports Thai News Agency (TNA)."

Election promises ??? Rice scheme---disaster-----tablets disaster-----car scheme financial disaster--- infrastructure spending ?? where did that disappear to ?? these were clearly laid out YES, but were all mega blunders. The amnesty---con and a farce--see sense why post such rubbish.

It wasn't that they didn't map out the pledges, agree with that, but what unfolded was a different kettle of fish.

[ginjag]

Govern undemocratically they did---NOT a crazy statement. Forget the military element. Topic is PTP. and what they did.

You want to be in denial OK, but stay on topic. Elected government in the case of PTP proved that it does not guarantee good governing. They proved that. ADMIT IT without the army BS.

They won a very convincing victory at the polls on the back of many election promises. These included bringing back Thaksin Shinawatra, which was regularly mentioned on the election trail. Also, the rice scheme, tablets, car scheme, minimum wage, infrastructure spending...were all clearly laid out for the voters to see. Afer elected they carried through with or were in the process of carrying through with these. How is that "governing undemocratically"?

"The Puea Thai Party, aligned with exiled ex-Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his red-shirt supporters, vowed Monday to bring Thaksin home to re-start his work for the nation, reports Thai News Agency (TNA)."

like it or not this is true and would be true today

the basic fact is that the yellows have a much smaller support base than the reds and that will remain so. Now if a better organised and educated party came along to represent the 'masses' this might change

2 nd paragraph true.

1 st. no way-reason was whatever you promise must be done with the nations coffers in mind-transparency----their pledges were not to be of this nature---proved.

Rice--tablets--infrastructure--water management--basic wage it was given to the 7 counties for starters that were already receiving more--go figure. Issan their stronghold received the basic last...amazing....................stupidity reigned when the amnesty was pushed at 3am.