China agrees to help Thailand build dual-track railway

[webfact]

INVESTMENT
Rail deal with China
Petchanet Pratruangkrai
The Nation



BANGKOK: -- CHINA HAS agreed to help Thailand build dual-track railway lines and medium-speed train projects via government-to-government deals, Prime Minister General Prayut Chan-o-cha said yesterday.

The deal was reached when Prayut met with Chinese President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang on the sidelines of Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (Apec) summit in Beijing.

The project was discussed in the context of the Beijing-sponsored land and maritime "Silk Road" to expand trade routes from China throughout the region and to Europe, he said.

"Chinese leaders said Thailand and China should cooperate on the project to have regional physical links, since we already have the routes, so we just [need to] upgrade and improve them," Prayut told reporters.

"China agreed to cooperate and fully support the development of double 1.435-metre standard-gauge [rail lines] to complete the linkage between China and Asean."

Prayut said his government had plans to build many rail lines and China agreed to support the construction of routes from Bangkok to Nong Khai and from Bangkok to Map Ta Phut, as well as a sub-route from Kaeng Khoi to Map Ta Phut on the Eastern Seaboard.

Prayut guaranteed transparency of the project, saying it was a deal between the two governments without private-sector involvement.

"Of course, many countries are interested in development of rail projects but in other routes, not this one.

"We have to talk to them later," he said.

"What we have to do for the rail system is to increase the length of the rail [lines] and speed of the trains. The single light rail [line], as used currently, must be upgraded to standard gauge and the speed should be 160km/h; for the high-speed trains - 250km/h - we need further study about its viability," he said.

While in Beijing, Prayut also met executives of three Chinese private firms - C&G, China Northern Locomotive, and China Medical Equipment - to exchange views on investment in Thailand.

The three Chinese conglomerates showed considerable interest, while the Thai prime minister said they must ensure fair benefits for Thais and environment protection.

He said he ordered Thai government agencies such as the Board of Investment to study rules, regulations and laws to facilitate investment by the Chinese firms, based on fair practice.

C&G - a leading waste-to-energy investor and operator in China - told Prayut the company wanted to set up a waste-processing plant in Thailand but it faced restrictions on investment capital.

Initially, the firm wanted to invest Bt3 billion in setting up a plant in the Rojana Industrial Estate or Navanakorn Industrial Estate. However, Thailand has a law that restricts investment capital to Bt2 billion.

Prayut said his regime was amending investment-related law for joint-venture firms, so the Chinese firm could wait for the law to be amended soon. He also called for C&G to consider carefully the health of people and environmental impact on nearby areas.

China Northern Locomotive, which has already sold rolling stock to the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration, also wants to join the Thailand's high-speed-rail project.

Prayut said this project had been negotiated under a government-to-government contract, so China Northern should talk with its government.

China Medical Equipment, meanwhile, said it wanted to build a plant in Thailand in the near future to use as a manufacturing base for exports to third countries. So far, this company has only shipped products to Thailand.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rail-deal-with-China-30247542.html

-- The Nation 2014-11-12

[ezzra]

Them Chinese are nothing but an Indian givers, they will not give you the time of day without something

in it for them, and usually this something is huge and it's like a catholic marriage, can get in but can't get out,

So what the catch here? what have Thailand committed it self in lieu of this " generous" help from the Chinese?

[NongKhaiKid]

Them Chinese are nothing but an Indian givers, they will not give you the time of day without something

in it for them, and usually this something is huge and it's like a catholic marriage, can get in but can't get out,

So what the catch here? what have Thailand committed it self in lieu of this " generous" help from the Chinese?

The ' no such thing as a free lunch ' aspect will be revealed later and probably when it's too late.

[chainarong]

This is becoming a concern for the transparency test , a government to government agreement , that say's it all , what a lot of two face pricks we have here, when it suits them, do what we say don't do as we do , the Prayuth transparency , no tenders called just an open and shut decision and a trust in us we know best mind set, this crowd is no better than the previous PTP , dealing with the Chinese government , OZ is about to sign an FTA after 8 years of discussions, that will tell you all about how these cunning little buggers R and still there is reservation about the agreement, good luck Thailand , you are going to need it.

[yellowboat]

Without an elected government, transparency will probably be limited which means a cash bonanza for the wealthy.

Other than the usual concerns about graft and bad management, a railway from Kunming through Thailand down to Singapore would be wonderful. Kunming is a wonderful city, probably one of the best in China.

Edited November 12, 2014 by yellowboat

[ExPratt]

Watch them bulldoze through the country without concern for safety ,quality and the environment . They don't give a shit about it in their own country so , very doubtful, they will change their practices in Thailand

[jackinthebox]

Watch them bulldoze through the country without concern for safety ,quality and the environment . They don't give a shit about it in their own country so , very doubtful, they will change their practices in Thailand

In this particular case I would say: The end justifies the means. Thailand (desperately) deeds a "modern" standard-gauge train-system. And IF one day it will be up and working (even if not built by international safety and quality standards) that will be a huge advantage and progress to thailand and south-east-asia. In other words: Every rail-based transport will be better than any street-based transport. Think of the millions of old and dangerous busses and lorrys on the roads, the carnage, the waste of fuel, the gridlock in the capital - anything away from streets is better than now..

[ExPratt]

I agree totally , they need the routes and the Chinese will build it, but it will be certainly not be of a standard any better than what the Thais would produce. Practicalities say the Chinese need to do it for financial reasons

[bluesofa]

Although I've been following the dual track train project with interest, I'm afraid that I'm not really clear as to what is happening with it.

Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut.

My questions are:

Is this new investment in standard gauge going to replace the metre gauge track, or will it be a completely separate development, with new stations for example?

If it's replacing the metre gauge, will it still run into Hualamphong or will there have to be a new station?

From what I can see, the Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut section will be a brand new route?

I found Kaeng Khoi-Map on the map, it's in Saraburi, not too far from where the North/North-Eastern routes split I think?

So will that be a passenger route or goods only – to get freight from Nong Khai to Map Ta Phut?

[ExPratt]

From a similar project in Malaysia , they followed the existing alignment as much as possible , land is expensive. Usually the first track is built along side the old as much as possible , dont forget you still need to run a train service , then once the best part of one side track is finished the traffic is swapped to the other side , the old track ripped out and the second new track built. Thats a bit different in Thailand as the rolling stock will be different from the old, so before you rip out the old you need the new rolling stock. They should know the new detailed alignment already and it should be relatively easy to get hold of during the tender stage

[halloween]

This is becoming a concern for the transparency test , a government to government agreement , that say's it all , what a lot of two face pricks we have here, when it suits them, do what we say don't do as we do , the Prayuth transparency , no tenders called just an open and shut decision and a trust in us we know best mind set, this crowd is no better than the previous PTP , dealing with the Chinese government , OZ is about to sign an FTA after 8 years of discussions, that will tell you all about how these cunning little buggers R and still there is reservation about the agreement, good luck Thailand , you are going to need it.

You are confusing this with the G2G deals announced by the previous government when actually the only similarity is that 2 governments are involved. Oh, hang on - there wasn't 2 governments involved in the previous G2G deals, just corrupt Ministers helping themselves to the country's wealth.

[ExPratt]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

This is becoming a concern for the transparency test , a government to government agreement , that say's it all , what a lot of two face pricks we have here, when it suits them, do what we say don't do as we do , the Prayuth transparency , no tenders called just an open and shut decision and a trust in us we know best mind set, this crowd is no better than the previous PTP , dealing with the Chinese government , OZ is about to sign an FTA after 8 years of discussions, that will tell you all about how these cunning little buggers R and still there is reservation about the agreement, good luck Thailand , you are going to need it. alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

You are confusing this with the G2G deals announced by the previous government when actually the only similarity is that 2 governments are involved. Oh, hang on - there wasn't 2 governments involved in the previous G2G deals, just corrupt Ministers helping themselves to the country's wealth.

You think this project will be free from corruption ? Wait until the tendering starts

[greenfox]

It is all in China's interest.

Deep sea port and industrial estates at Dewei in Burma, into Thailand via the new Nam Ron border, then train up to Kunming in China. China benefits greatly. So does Thailand.

[halloween]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

This is becoming a concern for the transparency test , a government to government agreement , that say's it all , what a lot of two face pricks we have here, when it suits them, do what we say don't do as we do , the Prayuth transparency , no tenders called just an open and shut decision and a trust in us we know best mind set, this crowd is no better than the previous PTP , dealing with the Chinese government , OZ is about to sign an FTA after 8 years of discussions, that will tell you all about how these cunning little buggers R and still there is reservation about the agreement, good luck Thailand , you are going to need it. alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

You are confusing this with the G2G deals announced by the previous government when actually the only similarity is that 2 governments are involved. Oh, hang on - there wasn't 2 governments involved in the previous G2G deals, just corrupt Ministers helping themselves to the country's wealth.

You think this project will be free from corruption ? Wait until the tendering starts

I didn't make any such assumption, just pointed out that something may be achieved other than grand theft. At the very least, 2 governments are actually involved, rather than it being a cover for a scam on a bigger scam.

[RustBucket]

Well the Chinese will be very happy now.

The big Chinese firms will now come into Thailand and rape it for everything it has, and will have a nice shiny rail system to haul everything back to China.

They won't buy jack shit from Thailand. I can see they will be taking over the rubber production as a starting point.

[trainman34014]

They were talking about new railways 25 years ago, 20 years ago,15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago , last year, this year and yesterday. When will the talking stop and the feasibility and transparent costing exercise start ? I mean the real serious stuff, not the bluster.

IF it does happen and the Chinese are heavily involved in the financing, will that not be 'against the rules' because foreign investment is strictly limited here ?

Whatever; i'll believe it when i see it running and not before.

[alanferdi]

Them Chinese are nothing but an Indian givers, they will not give you the time of day without something

in it for them, and usually this something is huge and it's like a catholic marriage, can get in but can't get out,

So what the catch here? what have Thailand committed it self in lieu of this " generous" help from the Chinese?

the catch is - America bans products from China, Europe regulates some of it and its breaches on patents. 20 chinese exhibitionist in a exhibition fair in Germany were taken out as their products were copies of European patents. China is hemmed in.... they need another gateway to sell their inferior products and whats better than joint venturing with an ASEAN country.... and exporting it to the rest of the world

The eastern Seaboard - Banglaemung is the largest Port in the area after China.... so they are after that in reality, they will use Thailand to get into their exports. So typical chinese approach.....

Thailand will bite it with the hope that their export will boom.... in reality just their logistics, Look what they did to Nepal, Look at the countries where the chinese built Ports - Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West African countries.... Supposedly donated by the chinese Gov....but built by their convicts.they are just making a silk route to pass through the eye of the needle of time with their inferior product non conforming to International trade standards. Thailand will not benefit... they will be used. Sweet talking chinese!!!!! - "An international joint venture (IJV) occurs when two businesses based in two or more countries form a partnership. A company that wants to explore international trade without taking on the full responsibilities of cross-border business transactions has the option of forming a joint venture with a foreign partner. International investors entering into a joint venture minimize the risk that comes with an outright acquisition of a business. In international business development, performing due diligence on the foreign country and the partner limits the risks involved in such a business transaction.^[1]

IJVs aid companies to form strategic alliances,^[2] which allow them to gain competitive advantage through access to a partner’s resources, including markets, technologies, capital and people. International joint ventures are viewed as a practical vehicle for knowledge transfer, such as technology transfer, from multinational expertise to local companies, and such knowledge transfer can contribute to the performance improvement of local companies.^[2] Within IJVs one or more of the parties is located where the operations of the IJV take place and also involve a local and foreign company.^{[3]- source Wikipedia and others on Chinese JVs and Donations.}

Edited November 12, 2014 by alanferdi

[ExPratt]

Agree it needs some realistic figures behind the talk. I don't think people realise what massive projects these will be nong Khai to bangkok , thats about 750km x 2 tracks 1500km of track to be built. We just finished the Ipoh Pedang basar project and 350km, 700km of track and civil s took 6 years. The civils in these jobs is by far the most work and the most money , think of 750 k of track formation , drainage , viaducts , tunnels , cable ducks

[KED]

Without an elected government, transparency will probably be limited which means a cash bonanza for the wealthy.

Other than the usual concerns about graft and bad management, a railway from Kunming through Thailand down to Singapore would be wonderful. Kunming is a wonderful city, probably one of the best in China.

I agree that transparency is vital in government deals and governance; however, an elected government or a military coup - doesn't matter - corruption and the lack of transparency are the same -

[rametindallas]

So, no need to put out specifications and ask all countries/companies interested in doing the project to offer competitive bids when, in just three days and and handshake, you can give all the business to one country that has monopoly control of all its businesses. What was the name of the business school where the PM got his MBA? Maybe this is like the microphone/video system for cabinet meetings; the Chinese will install the whole train system, on appro, before settling the price.

[ratcatcher]

Although I've been following the dual track train project with interest, I'm afraid that I'm not really clear as to what is happening with it.

Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut.

My questions are:

Is this new investment in standard gauge going to replace the metre gauge track, or will it be a completely separate development, with new stations for example?

If it's replacing the metre gauge, will it still run into Hualamphong or will there have to be a new station?

From what I can see, the Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut section will be a brand new route?

I found Kaeng Khoi-Map on the map, it's in Saraburi, not too far from where the North/North-Eastern routes split I think?

So will that be a passenger route or goods only – to get freight from Nong Khai to Map Ta Phut?

From what I can see, the Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut section will be a brand new route?

I think you will find that the Kaeng Koi to Chachoengsao Junction section is of later construction than the Chachoengsao to Rayong area section. Most of the KK to CJ track runs through open countryside as in fact does most of the SRT, and as ExPratt has pointed out, they will use the existing rail line when constructing the new links.

[Ulic]

From what I have read about and seen in African/China development deals, The Chinese finance and build the projects

providing all senior personnel and heavy equipment purchased from China. The politicians get there cutbacks providing

the logistics and low end labour and the country is left with bills that will take a generation or more to pay off.

So China and the local big wigs win, the general population pays.

[ExPratt]

Agree there is a huge risk for foreign companies and I doubt they will be major partner in any JV. The labour supply will be local agencies supplying cheap foreign workers, probably lots of small local sub-cons working for a main contractor in a JV. The advantage of such a sizable project is the ability to give 3 or 4 Main contractors a couple of hundred Ks each. If one is not performing you use the other Main contractors as a threat over their head to perform or lose the work .

The other problem will be the layers of contractors , the work gets subbed out by so many "Management" companies that the Main con has no contractual link to the actual work being done

[ginjag]

Agree there is a huge risk for foreign companies and I doubt they will be major partner in any JV. The labour supply will be local agencies supplying cheap foreign workers, probably lots of small local sub-cons working for a main contractor in a JV. The advantage of such a sizable project is the ability to give 3 or 4 Main contractors a couple of hundred Ks each. If one is not performing you use the other Main contractors as a threat over their head to perform or lose the work .

The other problem will be the layers of contractors , the work gets subbed out by so many "Management" companies that the Main con has no contractual link to the actual work being done

Yes as in many house building in Thailand, how many are contracted-sub contracted-sub-sub contracted.

[greenfox]

Make no mistake. In 25 years China will rule the World.

[ginjag]

Make no mistake. In 25 years China will rule the World.

At 72 years old, I hope I'm here to see it.

[Daniel Boon]

I'd be more worried about one-way tickets from China to Thailand (a la Tibet style)

[MiKT]

I hate to be an apologist for a currently hegemoneous China, but there are some very biased, racist and ill-considered comments here.

China has the world’s third largest and most intensely used rail network, including the longest high speed rail network.

Shanghai alone has 8 metros and the vast majority of equipment is of good standard, as in general is safety.

If you travel on the Skytrain you are in Chinese trains (not as good as the Siemens trains but cheaper) and the Blue line and BTS both use Chinese track.

The biggest problem with the proposed inter-country link will be ownership of the right of way.

Issues of corruption will be the same if it was Korean, Japanese, French or German contractors, TIT.

Be nice to say also American, but they are so far behind in railroad construction they don’t even have one really high speed train system and very little modern railway technology is exported from the US now, so US manufacturers won’t be involved in the corruption the way the used to be.

A railway link to China is not something that will significantly help the up-down country transportation networks in Thailand in the short term and the proposed new lines and more double tracking is what should really receive priority from the Government.. But, it seem like the overlords are committed to assist in expanding Chinese hegemony in this part of SEA. Why do you think all the riots here were engineered just when the US were being distracted by the Russian feints in the Crimea and Ukraine.

A nice rail link that will enable Chinese tanks to be in Singapore in the blink of an eye will really make the Japanese jealous and could seriously threaten the balance of power in this part of the world.

But that does not mean to say that properly managed, the construction of this rail link in a balanced timescale should not go ahead. It will in the long run be beneficial to many SEA countries. Just don’t give away Thai sovereignty over the rights of way. – It’s easy to knock a tank off a train.

[greenfox]

Make no mistake. In 25 years China will rule the World.

At 72 years old, I hope I'm here to see it.

Unless you're Han Chinese, you probably won't want to.

[bluesofa]

Although I've been following the dual track train project with interest, I'm afraid that I'm not really clear as to what is happening with it.

Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut.

My questions are:

Is this new investment in standard gauge going to replace the metre gauge track, or will it be a completely separate development, with new stations for example?

If it's replacing the metre gauge, will it still run into Hualamphong or will there have to be a new station?

From what I can see, the Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut section will be a brand new route?

I found Kaeng Khoi-Map on the map, it's in Saraburi, not too far from where the North/North-Eastern routes split I think?

So will that be a passenger route or goods only – to get freight from Nong Khai to Map Ta Phut?

From what I can see, the Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut section will be a brand new route?

I think you will find that the Kaeng Koi to Chachoengsao Junction section is of later construction than the Chachoengsao to Rayong area section. Most of the KK to CJ track runs through open countryside as in fact does most of the SRT, and as ExPratt has pointed out, they will use the existing rail line when constructing the new links.

Thanks for your reply.

I think I must have missed something here. Searching google maps I could see the railway from Kaeng Khoi coming south-west towards Ayuttaya then southwards into Bangkok.

I had assumed that the track route at present runs in & out of Bangkok to get from Nong Khai to Rayong.

Forgive my lack of understanding when you mention Chachoengsao junction - I'm guessing is this on the Bangkok>Rayong route?

But I couldn't see anything marked running south from Kaeng Khoi to Chachoengsao then to Rayong - is this something existing that I've missed?

From the way I've read the press report I thought it was going to be a new route to link from Kaeng Khoi>Map Ta Phut, avoiding Bangkok?

As it listed Nong Khai>Bangkok, this route passes Kaeng Khoi junction, so why would it be mentioned again?

Edited November 12, 2014 by bluesofa