China agrees to help Thailand build dual-track railway

[ExPratt]

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Because they are changing gauge my opinion is it will be totally separate from the existing Railway, Basically they will have to build a new track formation depending on ground conditions the depth will differ. Pre loading (to sink the new formation to the max) can take up to 6 months , then you have bridges ,viaducts , cable ducts , drainage. It doesn't have to be totally finished for the Track works to commence, most track Contractors will take a minimum of 5k to build on.

The civils are critical if they fall behind there are 2 choices , Be late or accelerate the Track program , but this costs money and will be backcharges to the civil company. Its messy and it depends on who and how many contracts are given out. many countries in Asia give everyone a piece of the pie which causes chaos because of the actual interfaces between half a dozen contractors on site

This is great - now we're getting down to specific points.

When you say you think the new track will be totally separate, do you mean separate but still alongside the exisiting track (as opposed to widen it), or do you have some other info indicating it may be new land (and therefore a completely new route) to be aquired?

What's the "5K" you refer to?

Any chance of a link to yesterday's article - was it Thai/Chinese press?

If the new track was the same Gauge as being used now you could use the formation of the old track. Very Basically you build one new track next to the existing , then divert the trains onto the new and rip out the old existing track and build \the other new track. With this project the gauge is different from the existing so how to swap the trains over ?.

5K is normally the minimum amount of finished track formation (Civils) a Track contractor will accept to build on, its not worth their while in Mobilizations and demobilization costs to take less. They do take less if you Instruct them too , but them they will claim against you

I read it in an actual news paper rather than online, A big English Language LOCAL paper

[bluesofa]

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Because they are changing gauge my opinion is it will be totally separate from the existing Railway, Basically they will have to build a new track formation depending on ground conditions the depth will differ. Pre loading (to sink the new formation to the max) can take up to 6 months , then you have bridges ,viaducts , cable ducts , drainage. It doesn't have to be totally finished for the Track works to commence, most track Contractors will take a minimum of 5k to build on.

The civils are critical if they fall behind there are 2 choices , Be late or accelerate the Track program , but this costs money and will be backcharges to the civil company. Its messy and it depends on who and how many contracts are given out. many countries in Asia give everyone a piece of the pie which causes chaos because of the actual interfaces between half a dozen contractors on site

This is great - now we're getting down to specific points.

When you say you think the new track will be totally separate, do you mean separate but still alongside the exisiting track (as opposed to widen it), or do you have some other info indicating it may be new land (and therefore a completely new route) to be aquired?

What's the "5K" you refer to?

Any chance of a link to yesterday's article - was it Thai/Chinese press?

If the new track was the same Gauge as being used now you could use the formation of the old track. Very Basically you build one new track next to the existing , then divert the trains onto the new and rip out the old existing track and build \the other new track. With this project the gauge is different from the existing so how to swap the trains over ?.

5K is normally the minimum amount of finished track formation (Civils) a Track contractor will accept to build on, its not worth their while in Mobilizations and demobilization costs to take less. They do take less if you Instruct them too , but them they will claim against you

I read it in an actual news paper rather than online, A big English Language LOCAL paper

As I've just read the comment above from a moderator saying posting a link is acceptable, I'll do that - as I now know where the two articles were:

<<<< Link to Bangkok Post removed: 26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum. >>>>

and

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-11/14/content_18916981.htm

A bit confusing is the three routes:

The original Nation article on 12 Nov quotes "Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut."

However in yesterday's Bangkok Post it quotes "Transport Minister Prajin Juntong said the routes will be Nong Khai-Nakhon Ratchasima-Kaeng Khoi, Kaeng Khoi-Bangkok and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut. The routes will cover 867 kilometres."

So in the BKK Post article, the Bangkok - Map Ta Phut route is missing. Is this either sloppy journalism, or the goverment not knowing what they're doing?

Edited November 16, 2014 by metisdead

[ExPratt]

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Because they are changing gauge my opinion is it will be totally separate from the existing Railway, Basically they will have to build a new track formation depending on ground conditions the depth will differ. Pre loading (to sink the new formation to the max) can take up to 6 months , then you have bridges ,viaducts , cable ducts , drainage. It doesn't have to be totally finished for the Track works to commence, most track Contractors will take a minimum of 5k to build on.

The civils are critical if they fall behind there are 2 choices , Be late or accelerate the Track program , but this costs money and will be backcharges to the civil company. Its messy and it depends on who and how many contracts are given out. many countries in Asia give everyone a piece of the pie which causes chaos because of the actual interfaces between half a dozen contractors on site

This is great - now we're getting down to specific points.

When you say you think the new track will be totally separate, do you mean separate but still alongside the exisiting track (as opposed to widen it), or do you have some other info indicating it may be new land (and therefore a completely new route) to be aquired?

What's the "5K" you refer to?

Any chance of a link to yesterday's article - was it Thai/Chinese press?

If the new track was the same Gauge as being used now you could use the formation of the old track. Very Basically you build one new track next to the existing , then divert the trains onto the new and rip out the old existing track and build \the other new track. With this project the gauge is different from the existing so how to swap the trains over ?.

5K is normally the minimum amount of finished track formation (Civils) a Track contractor will accept to build on, its not worth their while in Mobilizations and demobilization costs to take less. They do take less if you Instruct them too , but them they will claim against you

I read it in an actual news paper rather than online, A big English Language LOCAL paper

As I've just read the comment above from a moderator saying posting a link is acceptable, I'll do that - as I now know where the two articles were:

<<<< Link to Bangkok Post removed: 26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum. >>>>

and

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-11/14/content_18916981.htm

A bit confusing is the three routes:

The original Nation article on 12 Nov quotes "Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut."

However in yesterday's Bangkok Post it quotes "Transport Minister Prajin Juntong said the routes will be Nong Khai-Nakhon Ratchasima-Kaeng Khoi, Kaeng Khoi-Bangkok and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut. The routes will cover 867 kilometres."

So in the BKK Post article, the Bangkok - Map Ta Phut route is missing. Is this either sloppy journalism, or the goverment not knowing what they're doing?

Nothing is signed even the major funding is not yet officially decided , MOU next month, So I would say the routes being announced are part fact . part wishful Thinking. Nong Khai -Bangkok is a huge project even when comparing to Chinese standards. If they get a full service running in 6 years from start to finish I'd say they would be doing well

Edited November 16, 2014 by metisdead

[ratcatcher]

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If the new track was the same Gauge as being used now you could use the formation of the old track. Very Basically you build one new track next to the existing , then divert the trains onto the new and rip out the old existing track and build \the other new track. With this project the gauge is different from the existing so how to swap the trains over ?.

5K is normally the minimum amount of finished track formation (Civils) a Track contractor will accept to build on, its not worth their while in Mobilizations and demobilization costs to take less. They do take less if you Instruct them too , but them they will claim against you

I read it in an actual news paper rather than online, A big English Language LOCAL paper

As I've just read the comment above from a moderator saying posting a link is acceptable, I'll do that - as I now know where the two articles were:

<<<< Link to Bangkok Post removed: 26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum. >>>>

and

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2014-11/14/content_18916981.htm

A bit confusing is the three routes:

The original Nation article on 12 Nov quotes "Today's news that three routes (backed by China) are to go ahead as standard gauge: Bangkok-Nong Khai, Bangkok-Map Ta Phut and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut."

However in yesterday's Bangkok Post it quotes "Transport Minister Prajin Juntong said the routes will be Nong Khai-Nakhon Ratchasima-Kaeng Khoi, Kaeng Khoi-Bangkok and Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut. The routes will cover 867 kilometres."

So in the BKK Post article, the Bangkok - Map Ta Phut route is missing. Is this either sloppy journalism, or the goverment not knowing what they're doing?

Nothing is signed even the major funding is not yet officially decided , MOU next month, So I would say the routes being announced are part fact . part wishful Thinking. Nong Khai -Bangkok is a huge project even when comparing to Chinese standards. If they get a full service running in 6 years from start to finish I'd say they would be doing well

EP, you seem to be knowledgeable about RR construction etc, do you think the real goal is an efficient fast train system or do you envision a TGV style of system. No country, at least to my knowledge, runs HST freight. They do however run fast freights in many countries like UK, not sure about Germany, France, Japan etc..

Surely Kaeng Khoi junction will become a key area for the new system, as the connection via Chachoengsao Jct onwards to Rayong, will be heavily oriented towards freight.?

[ExPratt]

For the inter-city routes they certainly make more money from Freight than they do from paying passengers especially in Asia. High speeds are for passengers in reality, in China the high speed lines are termed PDL , Passenger dedicated lines. You would never attain those speeds with a 500 metre train with 20 to 30 ton axel loads. They would also &lt;deleted&gt; the track up a lot faster than passenger trains

TGV is basically glued ballast and they get some pretty quick test runs in France ,I worked in Taiwan with some mad scientist bloke from the German Railway institute and he told me that once a train hits 300kph the normal ballast acts like a fluid due to the massive vibration, the track sinks every time a train passes apparently hence the gluing. I think the French hold the speed record. As mention impractical in Thailand as I assume they will be running lots of Freight. Technically you can call anything around 220 kph , High speed. When they build prestige projects they always up the speed to grab the headlines , Id guess they'll say 180 to 220 but thats at the extreme and the maximum that the Track can provide, but in reality probably be a line speed of 150-160kph. Depends very much on the alignment believe it or not and if they require tight curves in places they have no room to build

[thaibeachlovers]

Watch them bulldoze through the country without concern for safety ,quality and the environment . They don't give a shit about it in their own country so , very doubtful, they will change their practices in Thailand

The Thais don't care about their own country, so what's the problem? If you don't believe me, just visit any popular tourist island to see the destruction THAIS have made to get more high paying tourists.

If they get a decent railway out of it, good job.Just look at the excellent Malaysian railway system from Thailand to Penang, and presumably beyond. Thailand desperately needs similar.

[NamKAheng]

Don't remember who made that quote, but here it is:

Being in bed with an elephant, no matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, it can be very dangerous when he starts to sneeze.

[BSJ]

For a bit of useful info I tapped into Wikipedia. The subject of axle loading is really important to any discussion of new tracks.

'Axle load

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The axle load of a wheeled vehicle is the total weight felt by the roadway for all wheels connected to a given axle. Viewed another way, it is the fraction of total vehicle weight resting on a given axle. Axle load is an important design consideration in the engineering of roadways and railways, as both are designed to tolerate a maximum weight-per-axle (axle load); exceeding the maximum rated axle load will cause damage to the roadway or rail tracks.'

"Railway use[edit]

On railways, a given section of track is designed to a maximum axle load. The maximum axle load is related to the strength of the track, which is determined by weight of rails, density of sleepers and fixtures, train speeds, amount of ballast, and strength of bridges. Because track and especially the rails are expensive, it is desirable to optimise the track for a given axle load. If the track is overloaded by trains that are too heavy, it can be destroyed in a short time. It is convenient for the steelworks that rails are made in a limited number of sizes, so that a perfect match of rail weight and axle load is rarely achieved. New rail is often reserved for heavy main line use, which releases good but lighter rail that can be cascaded for lighter duties on branch lines. The lightest rail cascaded from the lightest branch lines may have no railway use other that for structural items such as fenceposts, telegraph posts and for reinforcing concrete. Increase density of sleepers and reduce axle load can help to increase train speeds."

[ExPratt]

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Watch them bulldoze through the country without concern for safety ,quality and the environment . They don't give a shit about it in their own country so , very doubtful, they will change their practices in Thailand

The Thais don't care about their own country, so what's the problem? If you don't believe me, just visit any popular tourist island to see the destruction THAIS have made to get more high paying tourists.

If they get a decent railway out of it, good job.Just look at the excellent Malaysian railway system from Thailand to Penang, and presumably beyond. Thailand desperately needs similar.

Yep i don't have to look at the Malaysian Railway new project . I worked on it for 5 and a half years ,Ipoh to PB,I finished 2 weeks ago, The Track attain completion cert on 7/11. Thats not as pretty as it looks either

Edited November 18, 2014 by ExPratt

[bluesofa]

In today's Bangkok Post 20 November, (link not allowed) under the heading “Japan likely to ink rail deal soon” the story states that the government is likely to reach an agreement to build “one of Thailand's two proposed dual-track electric train routes.”

The report said "Basically, it is expected that the Thai government will allow Japan to operate the Tak-Mukdahan route." First time I've heard about this route.

It goes on to say the government has already reached an agreement with China to build the first electric rail route, linking Bangkok and Nong Khai. I didn't know that was going to be electric either?

I thought there was an MOU going to be signed with China in December, but nothing more "concrete" than that?

Will the “Chinese” rail route also be electric?
I expect to see more thieves electrocuted while trying to steal overhead power cables, as has happened previously here.

[ExPratt]

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In today's Bangkok Post 20 November, (link not allowed) under the heading “Japan likely to ink rail deal soon” the story states that the government is likely to reach an agreement to build “one of Thailand's two proposed dual-track electric train routes.”

The report said "Basically, it is expected that the Thai government will allow Japan to operate the Tak-Mukdahan route." First time I've heard about this route.

It goes on to say the government has already reached an agreement with China to build the first electric rail route, linking Bangkok and Nong Khai. I didn't know that was going to be electric either?

I thought there was an MOU going to be signed with China in December, but nothing more "concrete" than that?

Will the “Chinese” rail route also be electric?
I expect to see more thieves electrocuted while trying to steal overhead power cables, as has happened previously here.

It will be powered with OCS , Overhead Current system. You cannot hit those speeds with Traction or 3rd Rail also Traction rails more maintenance with OCS. It wont be diesel powered

Edited November 20, 2014 by ExPratt