Transfer to a SIPP plan for a non-UK resident

[rak sa_ngop]

I am now looking at transferring my personal pension plan to a Self Invested Personal Pension (SIPP) in the UK. The objective is to be able to draw down my pension pot over the next few years minimising my tax liability.

But as a non-resident of the UK (and also living in Thailand) it is becoming clear to me companies will not deal with non-UK residents even though I have a UK private pension in place already. The existing plan I have does not offer a drawdown option even under the new regulations starting next year.

Does anybody have any recent experience in making a transfer to a SIPP plan as a non-UK resident? Which company did you use?

There are about 50+ companies listed offering SIPP plans in the UK, so getting in touch with all of them is not so practical, especially as I have been knocked back by 2 companies already even though their small print looked encouraging.

Thanks

[KittenKong]

QROPS might suit you, but my God that's a can of worms if ever there was one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=qrops+scam

[fletchsmile]

I did mine via Hargreaves Lansdown years back. Service was excellent. They emailed the relevant forms for me to sign and send back. I was an existing client though, and I believe it's less easy these days. If you haven't already tried them, their phone numbers are below. If you call via a Skype account to their landline it's about 1 baht a minute.

http://www.hl.co.uk/contact-us

They're very up to date on all the pension rules, and offer the option your looking for if you manage to become a client

Cheers

Fletch

[rak sa_ngop]

Thanks, but I don't want QROPS due to the moderate size of the fund and also the cost of fees.

What Hargreaves could do years ago is not what can be done now. Only UK residents from what I have read.

Pretending to be a UK resident may work for some but I don't want to go that way. It could back-fire easily.

I am still looking for simple way to transfer my pension into a SIPP.

[scubascuba3]

Talk to a pension advisor from the UK. If you need a contact message me with your details and I'll ask my friend in UK to get in touch. They charge of course but with the right advice will be worth your while

[KittenKong]

Pretending to be a UK resident may work for some but I don't want to go that way. It could back-fire easily.

How?

[KittenKong]

Looks like TD may take you on:

http://www.tddirectinvesting.co.uk/special-pages/sipp-faqs/

I dont really understand what advantage a SIPP will give you over holding ETF trackers in a regular share account though. For non-residents these are not subject to CGT or income tax. Or is it something to do with liability on your existing holdings?

[rak sa_ngop]

Looks like TD may take you on:

http://www.tddirectinvesting.co.uk/special-pages/sipp-faqs/

I dont really understand what advantage a SIPP will give you over holding ETF trackers in a regular share account though. For non-residents these are not subject to CGT or income tax. Or is it something to do with liability on your existing holdings?

My Pension Plan can only be cashed in from 2015 at which time I would have to pay personal income tax on the full value of the fund.

If I transfer it to a SIPP I will be able to draw down about 10,000 GBP a year and pay no income tax.

The transfer has to be made to an approved SIPP plan in the UK or to an approved overseas QROPS plan.

I have a TD Direct Investing account in Luxembourg but they do not offer SIPP accounts as they are not UK based.

TD in the UK offer SIPP accounts but when I said I was resident in Thailand the answer was NO, Nyet, Nada, No Way.

And Thailand wants to become a financial hub!!!!!!!

[rak sa_ngop]

Pretending to be a UK resident may work for some but I don't want to go that way. It could back-fire easily.

How?

For a start I have been telling Inland Revenue for 24 years I have been non-resident.

I would have to lie on the application form.

I would be treated as a UK tax payer whereas I am not.

I would need a UK address which I do not have.

It seems that being UK non-resident is a valuable status not worth screwing around with for the sake of saving a few thousand quid.

[KittenKong]

How about these people: http://www.jameshay.co.uk/DocumentView.aspx?DocumentID=2642

[rak sa_ngop]

How about these people: http://www.jameshay.co.uk/DocumentView.aspx?DocumentID=2642

Ha!! I was actually just looking at their website and somewhere it talked about 'if you are non-resident you will not receive tax rebates ....' which suggests that they do open accounts for non-residents.

But I have been led astray by incorrect/out-of-date literature before.

I will try and talk to them later today.

Thanks

[fletchsmile]

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Thanks, but I don't want QROPS due to the moderate size of the fund and also the cost of fees.

What Hargreaves could do years ago is not what can be done now. Only UK residents from what I have read.

Pretending to be a UK resident may work for some but I don't want to go that way. It could back-fire easily.

I am still looking for simple way to transfer my pension into a SIPP.

How about these people: http://www.jameshay.co.uk/DocumentView.aspx?DocumentID=2642

Ha!! I was actually just looking at their website and somewhere it talked about 'if you are non-resident you will not receive tax rebates ....' which suggests that they do open accounts for non-residents.

But I have been led astray by incorrect/out-of-date literature before.

I will try and talk to them later today.

Thanks

That's why I'd suggest giving HL a call which would cost you about 10 baht for 10 mins if you use Skype, and get the word direct from the horses mouth. TBH don't know if you can or not but would certainly be worth a try. Even from their website, they say it may be possible to transfer even if you aren't a UK resident, although you would not be able to contribute further...

http://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/sipp/frequently-asked-questions

"Eligibility

• Am I eligible for a Vantage SIPP?

  If you are a UK resident and under the age of 75, you should be eligible to contribute to the Vantage SIPP.

  You may also be eligible if you have been a resident at some point during the current tax year, if you had earnings chargeable to UK income tax or if you or your spouse is a Crown Servant based overseas.

  If you do not meet the above criteria, you may be able to transfer a UK Registered Pension Scheme to the Vantage SIPP, but you are unlikely to be able to make contributions. Before transferring, please ensure you won't lose any valuable guarantees or other benefits, or incur excessive exit fees."

Often what you read or what is on websites isn't the fully story, or is out of date, or in the case of forums sometimes just plain wrong or hearsay...

I agree with your comments above. No point lying or trying to cheat the system. Do it all above board, and simply ask honestly and openly. BTW If they say no, I would ask if they know of anyone that does offer to those outside the UK...

Cheers

Fletch

Edited November 13, 2014 by fletchsmile

[dabhand]

I have had experience of The Fry Group who have an office in Singapore that deals with clients in Thailand.

http://www.thefrygroupsg.com/

I make no recommendations, as each person has to make the appropriate enquiries / research to suit their own circumstances.

[rak sa_ngop]

I have had experience of The Fry Group who have an office in Singapore that deals with clients in Thailand.

http://www.thefrygroupsg.com/

I make no recommendations, as each person has to make the appropriate enquiries / research to suit their own circumstances.

Yes the Fry Group in Singapore or London can do it. But they manage the investments for you so take a commission/management fee which you may or may not think is worth the price.

[rak sa_ngop]

How about these people: http://www.jameshay.co.uk/DocumentView.aspx?DocumentID=2642

Ha!! I was actually just looking at their website and somewhere it talked about 'if you are non-resident you will not receive tax rebates ....' which suggests that they do open accounts for non-residents.

But I have been led astray by incorrect/out-of-date literature before.

I will try and talk to them later today.

Thanks

I have now had a positive response from the James Hay company. Talking to them it seems that they only require you to be 'registered for UK tax' to open an account. So even though I am UK a non resident I paid tax up to about 4 years ago on rental income I received so I still should be registered. In fact I would have thought that anybody who had a UK personal pension scheme would be also registered with the UK tax office. Because as soon as you cash your policy in (from 2015) the tax office will clobber you.

They seemed very uncertain themselves as to what 'registered for UK tax' meant exactly, but it seems that I will be OK subject to passport and address checks, should I choose to go with them. Now I have to read up what they offer and how much they charge.

As with the banks, every company seems to have its own interpretation on regulations!

[KittenKong]

I have now had a positive response from the James Hay company. Talking to them it seems that they only require you to be 'registered for UK tax' to open an account. So even though I am UK a non resident I paid tax up to about 4 years ago on rental income I received so I still should be registered. In fact I would have thought that anybody who had a UK personal pension scheme would be also registered with the UK tax office. Because as soon as you cash your policy in (from 2015) the tax office will clobber you.

They seemed very uncertain themselves as to what 'registered for UK tax' meant exactly, but it seems that I will be OK subject to passport and address checks, should I choose to go with them. Now I have to read up what they offer and how much they charge.

I suspect that "registered for UK tax" just means that you have a unique taxpayer reference (UTR). If you have never filled out a self-assessment form (and you surely have if you had UK rental income) then you just use your NI number.

Either way, if you have ever paid any income tax or CGT in the UK then by definition you must be "registered".

[MAJIC]

Pretending to be a UK resident may work for some but I don't want to go that way. It could back-fire easily.

How?

It's pointless pretending to be a UK Resident,your Pension was generated in the UK, and any Tax will be deducted at source, at UK rates,so your Tax allowances will also be offset by HMRC,via your Annual Tax Allowances!

[SheungWan]

I have now had a positive response from the James Hay company. Talking to them it seems that they only require you to be 'registered for UK tax' to open an account. So even though I am UK a non resident I paid tax up to about 4 years ago on rental income I received so I still should be registered. In fact I would have thought that anybody who had a UK personal pension scheme would be also registered with the UK tax office. Because as soon as you cash your policy in (from 2015) the tax office will clobber you.

They seemed very uncertain themselves as to what 'registered for UK tax' meant exactly, but it seems that I will be OK subject to passport and address checks, should I choose to go with them. Now I have to read up what they offer and how much they charge.

I suspect that "registered for UK tax" just means that you have a unique taxpayer reference (UTR). If you have never filled out a self-assessment form (and you surely have if you had UK rental income) then you just use your NI number.

Either way, if you have ever paid any income tax or CGT in the UK then by definition you must be "registered".

The question I would be asking is that if you are registering yourself for taxation purposes to claim benefit for retirement purposes then are you equally registering yourself for taxation purposes re your other income and thereby undermining your non-resident taxation status as far as Her Majesty's Inspectors might conclude at some point? Are you asking to have your cake and eating it too?

[KittenKong]

The question I would be asking is that if you are registering yourself for taxation purposes to claim benefit for retirement purposes then are you equally registering yourself for taxation purposes re your other income and thereby undermining your non-resident taxation status as far as Her Majesty's Inspectors might conclude at some point? Are you asking to have your cake and eating it too?

Even non-resident persons are "registered" for tax in the UK assuming they have ever filled in a self-assessment form or ever paid any income tax or CGT. "Registration" lasts a lifetime and you cant be "de-registered". Anyone who has a UK pension or UK rental income would normally have paid some tax at some point, or at least filled in the form if the earnings were very low. Either way they would still be "registered".

I've been non-resident for nearly 40 years but I still have a UTR. And I dont pay any UK tax on my world-wide income, nor do I have to declare it. I dont actually pay any UK tax on my UK income either, as it is exempt.

The US system is very different.