Tourist visa , website , pay tax ?

[rwdrwdrwd]

That means anybody who is here for more than 180 days in a year is required to pay Thai income tax on foreign income that is earned that year and that is remitted to Thailand in that year - Digitalnomade, you are resident for tax purposes.

Only way you are not liable (well liable on zero of your remitted money) is if you happen to be able to keep all foreign income offshore until the subsequent tax year to when you earnt it. This 'in the same tax year' is omitted from the English version of that regulation, but apparently exists in the Thai version, and is the rule stated by all the major accountancy firms - PWC, KPMG etc.

Never heard of anyone being asked to prove when they earned foreign income, but that's the law.

Edited December 2, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Soutpeel]

there is no 180 days laws in Thailand(that's for Europe or usa) ..... I m here more than 180 days a year and I m a tourist, I sleep and eat here as a tourist, and they Thai law says I can not pay tax in Thailand . I pay tax on vat and landing fee.

what is a residence anyway ? you can stay in a country for years, and never have residence.

I suggest you do better research dear boy before making categoric statements, if your here more than 180 days you are resident in Thailand for tax purposes

[Digitalnomade]

oh OK, so legally do I have to report 0 bahts and file tax form like in USA.( in USA I have heard you don't need to file with irs if you make less than 9000$.)

I m not 180 days in Thailand, I m in Thailand only for 4 times 90 days.

I presume the 180 days laws are consecutively.??

[FritsSikkink]

What they told me was that i did not need to have a workpermit becouse the bussnies was oversea.. was not based in Thailand.. maybe i should go and ask again.. but it sound logic.. if you not employd or have bussnies in Thailand.. why shoud you need a work permit

Not true, you need a work permit

Great glad that's all solved, phew, glad to break out of this groundhog-day-esque debate once and for all.

If you could just attach your Department of Labour badge to legitimise your detailed official statement, that would be superb.

Hang onnnn... this is just your own personal opinion isn't it.. dagnabbit!

You will never learn will you:

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1329

[rwdrwdrwd]

You will never learn will you:

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1329

The question remains around whether working online constitutes a breach, to take the latter definition in that quote from two years ago (that is diametrically opposed to the quote by a Chiang Mai Immigration Official):

The engagement in work by exerting energy or using knowledge for purpose of obtaining wages or other benefits

To take this literally, as you seem to be, people sending emails on holiday would indeed require a Work Permit. As indeed would someone writing a book, trading stocks, or telephoning an agent that handles rentals.

I read it as performing physical work in Thailand or being renumerated in Thailand being verboten - ie the spirit being, not taking employment opportunities from Thais. Certainly am unaware of anybody ever being arrested for sending an email, writing a book, trading stocks, or telephoning an agent in a foreign country. Given this, I suspect those tasked with enforcing law and regulations regarding labour and immigration law take rather a more granular approach to what they consider OK, and not OK.

Edited December 2, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[FritsSikkink]

You will never learn will you:

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1329

The question remains around whether working online constitutes a breach, to take the latter definition in that quote from two years ago (that is diametrically opposed to the quote by a Chiang Mai Immigration Official):

The engagement in work by exerting energy or using knowledge for purpose of obtaining wages or other benefits

To take this literally, as you seem to be, people sending emails on holiday would indeed require a Work Permit. As indeed would someone writing a book, trading stocks, or telephoning an agent that handles rentals.

I read it as performing physical work in Thailand or being renumerated in Thailand being verboten - ie the spirit being, not taking employment opportunities from Thais. Certainly am unaware of anybody ever being arrested for sending an email, writing a book, trading stocks, or telephoning an agent in a foreign country. Given this, I suspect those tasked with enforcing law and regulations regarding labour and immigration law take rather a more granular approach to what they consider OK, and not OK.

A quote by a Chiang Mai Immigration Official is void. The labour department is in control and they act according to the labour law.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

This law is very clear. Working without a work permit is illegal and you can twist and turn all you want it doesn't change that.

[rwdrwdrwd]

A quote by a Chiang Mai Immigration Official is void. The labour department is in control and they act according to the labour law.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

This law is very clear. Working without a work permit is illegal and you can twist and turn all you want it doesn't change that.

It says:

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended forwages or any other benefits.

Ignoring the fact for a moment that this does not actually define working, since it starts with 'working means a working' though the meaning could well be lost in translation, and taking it literally to mean "Working" means [using] physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits. as you seem to be, the conclusion is that someone who sends an email requires a work permit, as does someone who mows their own lawn, does the washing up, or indeed uses their hands, arms, legs, eyes, brain or any one of their five senses at any point and for any purpose during their time in Thailand.

I'm not 'twisting and turning', that IS the literal meaning of the law you claim is 'very clear'. One cannot legally walk down the street or pick their nose without requiring a Work Permit.

Personally I think you're taking it far, far too literally.

Edited December 2, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[ThailandRick]

From the latest part of this thread, Digital Nomad in Thailand == require work permit and pay tax... however it is hard for the officials now to make the evidence for the digital nomad to prosecute... ie, chiang mai... But in other case, mow your lawn and have a disgruntle neighbor narc on you for revenge... Everything in a sense is still very Wild Wild West... From the definition above and the link to Phuket, I don't see how mowing your own lawn fits that definition... He didn't pay himself and it was not for other benefit... Benefit is quite vague but sounds like you get something of monetary value (trade or get item of value). I have heard this before in different places... If a Thai can perform the labor, then you cannot do it... That in a sense is not by definition... Sounds more like a Union(Thai Govt) for Thai people, but not defined by the law... I don't know how this would be violated by changing my light-bulb and my neighbor narcing on me... Really?

Would this be a fair definition:

The engagement in work by exerting energy (Physical Labor) or using knowledge (White Collar Professional) for purpose of obtaining wages(Money) or other benefits(Monetary)---while physically in Thailand but proving it can be quite difficult at the present time...

Edited December 2, 2014 by ThailandRick

[rwdrwdrwd]

oh OK, so legally do I have to report 0 bahts and file tax form like in USA.( in USA I have heard you don't need to file with irs if you make less than 9000$.)

I m not 180 days in Thailand, I m in Thailand only for 4 times 90 days.

I presume the 180 days laws are consecutively.??

Not sure on the first question, doubt it, but no the 180 days do not need to be consecutive, coming for two 90 day visits and a 1 day visit would count as tax resident, since it's >180 cumulatively.

Edited December 2, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[ATF]

The answer that no one is willing to accept is if you are making money from the internet then it is funding your life in Thailand. Therefore you are working illegally unless you have other means of income from overseas such as a trust fund or business which can support you without you using your digital earnings.

The people who are making real money online don't have a problem setting up a company here. It's just the Digital Pikeys making a few hundred bucks a month from Google clicks or selling stuff on Ebay or pornography.

[jspill]

Self-funding your life in Thailand digitally, a developing country with no welfare system, no ability to buy up land, no voting rights, no gainful employment, no easy automatic route to citizenship, restrictions on getting money out of the kingdom... sounds like the crime of the century.

How selfish of these nomads to not want to deal with the red tape of setting up a company in a country halfway down the global corruption index, employ four Thais, pay tea money and be tied down to an unstable country that they have no idea how long they intend to reside in.

[ColdSingha]

The answer that no one is willing to accept is if you are making money from the internet then it is funding your life in Thailand. Therefore you are working illegally unless you have other means of income from overseas such as a trust fund or business which can support you without you using your digital earnings.

The people who are making real money online don't have a problem setting up a company here. It's just the Digital Pikeys making a few hundred bucks a month from Google clicks or selling stuff on Ebay or pornography.

i think the people making real money here are smart enough to hire an intl business accountant and form an offshore entity for their global sales and a thai company or representative office for their thai based operations.

income can then be repatriated by a number of means, all of which your accountant will advise as to the minimum payable and to whom

[jspill]

Another factor is the trend amongst a growing number of people today to want to avoid the 9 to 5, not be in an office, outsource everything and be location independent. Look at the bestselling success of the '4 hour work week'.

The notion that everyone who makes 'real money' sets up offices and employs staff and that everyone on their laptop in their pyjamas must be scraping by from day to day is archaic.

Edited December 2, 2014 by jspill

[ubonjoe]

oh OK, so legally do I have to report 0 bahts and file tax form like in USA.( in USA I have heard you don't need to file with irs if you make less than 9000$.)

I m not 180 days in Thailand, I m in Thailand only for 4 times 90 days.

I presume the 180 days laws are consecutively.??

Read what I posted it says. "Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year".

[rwdrwdrwd]

The answer that no one is willing to accept is if you are making money from the internet then it is funding your life in Thailand. Therefore you are working illegally unless you have other means of income from overseas such as a trust fund or business which can support you without you using your digital earnings.

By that logic, anyone earning dividend or rental income is working illegally. Also not sure at all why you think some overseas businesses are fine to earn income from and some aren't, it's an entirely piecemeal and arbitrary perspective.

Edited December 3, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Digitalnomade]

digital nomads do not work.... their website work for them!

let say you sell a digital book on Amazon , is it a work ?

you buy a few condo, resell them, is it a work?

your bank invests in stocks for you, is it a work ?

you make 2 or 3% of interest on your capital, is it a work ?

immigration thinks a work is someone who is employed 5-6 days a week, having 2 or 4 weeks holidays.... and having a monthly salary.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Digitalnomade

[MrWorldwide]

oh OK, so legally do I have to report 0 bahts and file tax form like in USA.( in USA I have heard you don't need to file with irs if you make less than 9000$.)

I m not 180 days in Thailand, I m in Thailand only for 4 times 90 days.

I presume the 180 days laws are consecutively.??

Read what I posted it says. "Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year".

UJ, we knew what you meant - he's just a very slippery customer constantly on the lookout for loopholes. This is the reason we have to deal with more and more red tape in Thailand every year.

[balo]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country. You can be a tourist here and still work online , maybe you do some online translations or own a website in EU/US.

Maybe you answer a couple of phone calls, maybe you reply on a couple of e-mails, maybe you're an author and write a book to be published in your home country. All this is legal activities.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country....

Only if the income is liable to taxation in the home country, which it can easily not be with online business. A Brit that is tax resident in Thailand is not liable British tax on income sourced from the US and received to a personal account in Singapore, for example. Nor are they liable for Thai tax unless they remit it to Thailand in the same year that they earned it.

With the above scenario, the income would be 100% legally tax free so long as it could be held in Singapore until the next tax year (00.01 on the next January 1st)

Were they to remit in the same tax year it was earned, it would be taxable in Thailand, but the proportion of income that was taxable by Britain would be considered under dual tax agreements.

Edited December 3, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[jspill]

UJ, we knew what you meant - he's just a very slippery customer constantly on the lookout for loopholes. This is the reason we have to deal with more and more red tape in Thailand every year.

If the negativity that some posters show on internet forums is the same as how they treat people in day to day life, maybe that's the real reason Thailand is cracking down on foreigners.

[Digitalnomade]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country. You can be a tourist here and still work online , maybe you do some online translations or own a website in EU/US.

Maybe you answer a couple of phone calls, maybe you reply on a couple of e-mails, maybe you're an author and write a book to be published in your home country. All this is legal activities.

I have no home country.... I am a tourist in this world. my books and websites are published all around the world on your tablets.

I belong to nowhere, world is my home, moon is my second home. Internet is my office. Bitcoin and litecoin are my wallet and my bank.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Digitalnomade

[onthemoon]

The answer that no one is willing to accept is if you are making money from the internet then it is funding your life in Thailand. Therefore you are working illegally unless you have other means of income from overseas such as a trust fund or business which can support you without you using your digital earnings.

By that logic, anyone earning dividend or rental income is working illegally. Also not sure at all why you think some overseas businesses are fine to earn income from and some aren't, it's an entirely piecemeal and arbitrary perspective.

Never mind your Western logic, Thai law states that you are liable to income tax if your income earned overseas is brought to Thailand within the same tax year.

See ubonjoe's post.

[onthemoon]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country. You can be a tourist here and still work online , maybe you do some online translations or own a website in EU/US.

Maybe you answer a couple of phone calls, maybe you reply on a couple of e-mails, maybe you're an author and write a book to be published in your home country. All this is legal activities.

I have no home country.... I am a tourist in this world. my books and websites are published all around the world on your tablets.

I belong to nowhere, world is my home, moon is my second home. Internet is my office. Bitcoin and litecoin are my wallet and my bank.

Pleased to meet you, NoHomeGuy / Digitalnomade. Do you haul from Marvel or DC Comics?

As in: I am sure you use some country's passport to cross borders, or stay illegally somewhere. And you are subject to "death and taxes", as they say.

Sorry to bring you down to profane reality.

[onthemoon]

So if I am home and painting my home and doing work around my home you are basically saying I am working illegally as you state any Activity done in Thailand,whether compansated or not. I find that proposterous.

No its not illegal

I don't think it is illegal to paint your own home. However, you are in trouble if you help your neighbour to paint his home. Or help out at an NGO.

[jspill]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country. You can be a tourist here and still work online , maybe you do some online translations or own a website in EU/US.

Maybe you answer a couple of phone calls, maybe you reply on a couple of e-mails, maybe you're an author and write a book to be published in your home country. All this is legal activities.

I have no home country.... I am a tourist in this world. my books and websites are published all around the world on your tablets.

I belong to nowhere, world is my home, moon is my second home. Internet is my office. Bitcoin and litecoin are my wallet and my bank.

Pleased to meet you, NoHomeGuy / Digitalnomade. Do you haul from Marvel or DC Comics?

As in: I am sure you use some country's passport to cross borders, or stay illegally somewhere. And you are subject to "death and taxes", as they say.

Sorry to bring you down to profane reality.

As mentioned one isn't subject to taxes here if one doesn't remit money in the year earned. I haven't paid income tax in nearly a decade. I'm subject to death though.

[Soutpeel]

Working as a digital nomad from Thailand is not illegal and you dont pay tax to Thailand but to your home country. You can be a tourist here and still work online , maybe you do some online translations or own a website in EU/US.

Maybe you answer a couple of phone calls, maybe you reply on a couple of e-mails, maybe you're an author and write a book to be published in your home country. All this is legal activities.

I have no home country.... I am a tourist in this world. my books and websites are published all around the world on your tablets.

I belong to nowhere, world is my home, moon is my second home. Internet is my office. Bitcoin and litecoin are my wallet and my bank.

Pleased to meet you, NoHomeGuy / Digitalnomade. Do you haul from Marvel or DC Comics?

As in: I am sure you use some country's passport to cross borders, or stay illegally somewhere. And you are subject to "death and taxes", as they say.

Sorry to bring you down to profane reality.

As mentioned one isn't subject to taxes here if one doesn't remit money in the year earned. I haven't paid income tax in nearly a decade. I'm subject to death though.

Err one is possibly liable for tax in Thailand if one is in country for 180 days or more, you are resident for tax purposes that is the reality, when and how you bring your money in is the secondary consideration, one suspects the day will come in Thailand that they will start chasing long term farangs on this point

[jspill]

If the money isn't remitted in the year it's earned, blah blah you know the details.

Err one is possibly liable for tax in Thailand if one is in country for 180 days or more, you are resident for tax purposes that is the reality, when and how you bring your money in is the secondary consideration, one suspects the day will come in Thailand that they will start chasing long term farangs on this point

Don't hold your breath, when many of the locals are avoiding tax too.

[Soutpeel]

If the money isn't remitted in the year it's earned, blah blah you know the details.

Err one is possibly liable for tax in Thailand if one is in country for 180 days or more, you are resident for tax purposes that is the reality, when and how you bring your money in is the secondary consideration, one suspects the day will come in Thailand that they will start chasing long term farangs on this point

Don't hold your breath, when many of the locals are avoiding tax too.

Maybe so, but locals don't need long term visa's/extensions of stay do they ? Edited January 18, 2015 by Soutpeel

[ColdSingha]

If the money isn't remitted in the year it's earned, blah blah you know the details.

Err one is possibly liable for tax in Thailand if one is in country for 180 days or more, you are resident for tax purposes that is the reality, when and how you bring your money in is the secondary consideration, one suspects the day will come in Thailand that they will start chasing long term farangs on this point

Don't hold your breath, when many of the locals are avoiding tax too.

Maybe so, but locals don't need long term visa's/extensions of stay do they ?

tax law is nothing to do with immigration it's a totally separate department

honestly i don't see what the fuss is about it's quite a common tax law these days. look up the UK's non-domicile status, now that really is a doozy.

seriously i've said it before and i'll say it again if you are paying taxes and not paying an accountant first you are throwing a lot of money away

thai tax law is very accommodative for both thai and worldwide income

[manarak]

As I am working as an "internet entrepreneur" with a company in Thailand, I examined this very question in depth several times over the years so I will also give away my opinion on the topic.

Tax liability is a complex question worldwide, and tax matters are separate from labor matters which in turn are separate from immigration matters (visa/extensions).
Also, for each of these matters there is firstly a Law, then there are directives on how the Law is applied by the different ministries (Finance, Labor and Interior) and then there are police orders which dictate how the Laws should be enforced by police.
This is also how it works in Western countries - often, some laws exist but they have not been implemented by the executive, or the ministries didn't issue directives, or the ministries didn't write police orders for enforcement...
This is to say, because of the simple fact that a Law exists, it still doesn't mean the Law is being applied - in most countries, tax and labor lawyers follow ministerial directives and not the Law itself.
I wanted to point this out to illustrate that there is no clear-cut of white or black in tax and labor matters.

International tax matters are further complicated by international treaties on taxation and international agreements on avoidance of double taxation. While each country edicts its own Laws regarding taxation, including determining when a person or company is liable for national tax and which revenues or assets are taxable, international treaties always take precendence on national Law.
Many countries have agreed to avoid double taxation by signing bilateral agreements to avoid double taxation with other countries. Thailand also has many such agreements in place.
These agreements are based on the internationally widely used so-called "OECD model", which provides a framework of taxation rules to be applied to companies and persons which could be liable to tax between two countries.
The general public only remembers the 180 rule, but the treaties incorporate many other provisions such as "habitual place of life center" or in the case of companies "main place of value generation" - interpretation is not straightforward and in some cases tax authorities came back to people who thought they safely left the tax area.
This means, the 180 days rule (which really is the 183 days rules for many countries) is not sufficient in itself for determining tax liability.


Long story short, I think rwdrwdrwd gave the best answers in this thread.

As he correctly pointed out, it is only possible to give an opinion but not to clearly establish that something is not illegal as long as a supreme court hasn't ruled in an exactly comparable case.

Another problem is that persons who don't have an understanding about how Laws and their application work in detail often have expectations that cannot be met by a legal system, such as precise paragraphs or texts stating that such and such things are explicitly allowed. Such provisions are very rare in any country's Law and usually only exist when the provision is an exception to the general rule, and even then, the provision usually only says the general rule does not apply in explicitly listed specific cases.

...

Regarding tax liability in Thailand, if we take the example of a person who owns a website hosted in the USA, with payments made by US or international (non-Thai) clients to an account in the USA, whose "habitual life center" is in the USA and who is staying in Thailand temporarily but longer than 180 days, then by application the tax convention between USA and Thailand, the person will be liable to tax in the USA...
At that point, Thailand is out of the picture regarding income tax matters, and then the US tax laws are applied, and US Tax Laws or directives could very well determine that the person is not liable for tax in the USA, and that would be the end of the matter.

The whole point about having Thai clients or doing business in Thailand is simply a shift of the "main place of value generation" mentioned earlier, and this could mean tax liability in Thailand.
Again, there are no directives that are 100% clear on the matter, so it's always a question of interpretation.

For internationally mobile persons, it is very easy to avoid taxation alltogether by avoiding establishing a life center anywhere and keep moving, spending less than 180 days in any country.


On top of that come the labor laws requiring a work permit.
Remember the Law is not what determines the legality or illegality of an activity in Thailand - the labor department's *directive* does that, i.e. how is the Law applied ?
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the directive, so we can only be left conjecturing an interpretation.

Another example of how directives are applied and of how immigration police represents the Labor Department's enforcement force:
Thai Labor Laws and the Alien employment act do not contain any provisions on the Thai:foreigner ratio necessary to obtain a work permit.
This ratio has been introduced in 2003 by the Order of Immigration Office No. 110/2546, revised several times, the latest being order no. 327/2557.

Also, Immigration police and the Department of Labor apparently are not applying the same rules.

see http://www.thailawforum.com/blog/work-permit-law-changes-in-thailand

Mario2008 already answered this correctly in post #2 with regards to the OP's question.

I would like to add that is incorrect that you don't pay taxes if you stay less than 183 days. Rock bands stay for 2-3 days, get work permits and pay taxes, for example.

This is incorrect - while people coming into Thailand to perform a specific task or service (rock concerts, seminars, etc.) do require a temporary work permit, they are not liable to personal taxes.
But you do correctly point out that the 183 rule is not the only rule that can apply.

The whole debate about requiring a work permit or not revolves around the question of what should be considered work in the sense of the definition given in the Working Alien Act of 2008:

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits

The number one thing that is certain, is that this formulation covers any human activity, even down to breathing, where the benefit would be not to die from asphyxiation.

So we can safely deduct that this definition is not to be applied blindly to everything.

This is clearly proven by the fact that it has been clearly established that a range of activities are not considered work, for example mowing your lawn, washing your car or participating or being the chairman of a condo committee.

So the number two thing that can be said with certainty is "exerting energy in Thailand is not sufficient to categorically establish someone is working".

Some will say that working online for an abroad business it is not only exerting energy, it is exerting energy to earn money - and this should be considered working.

Think about authors who write books? John Grisham has written several books while he was in Thailand, should he have asked for a work permit?

What follows is of course a conjecture, but it is shared by most Thai lawyers.

As rwdrwdrwd pointed out earlier, Thai police's past behavior also seems to support the following interpretation, as their behavior in the Punspace raid in Chiang Mai shows.

From a legal perspective, my experience with Thai Laws is that they can only be applied within Thailand, so they don't include clients/staff/business/revenue located abroad in their ponderations wether an activity should be considered as work or not. As far as Thailand is concerned, nothing happens within Thailand so there is no business.

This is also what all Thai lawyers I know say - Thai Laws are only interested in what happens within Thailand.

Immigration police says:

online work for overseas companies that pay overseas is not prohibited but that the person will need to get a visa to stay longer, currently there is no new visa for these kinds of people.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/754414-immigration-clarifies-new-regulations-for-foreigners-in-chiang-mai/

also from Chiang Mai: http://chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4366

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

No doubt, some people will say that this is the practice at Chiang Mai immigration and does not represent what other immigration offices think, and still others will say that the statements could have been made in error.

Hmm...

Okay... let's trust the TV keyboard warrior over the Chiang Mai Immigration Commander...

From my point of view it is pretty safe to say that if an activity has strictly no business with any person, the public or company/organisation within Thailand and also no need for the person to be physically located in Thailand to do the work, then the activity cannot be considered "working" as far as Thai Law is concerned.

I think this is the reason why police is totally not interested in people working online for a business located abroad, and I'm not even talking about how difficult it would be to actually prove a person is working online (no, Law enforcement cannot just come without a warrant into your room, and Thai courts don't issue warrants to bust foreigners rumored to work online from their room).

Of course, as long as new regulations or directives are not issued by the department of labor or immigration or as long as there hasn't been a court case confirming the above, we stay in the realm of conjecture, strictly speaking.