'Four killed' in Jerusalem synagogue attack

[uptheos]

Canadian Foreign Minister John Baird condemned the "savage terrorist attack"

“On behalf of all Canadians, we stand with the people of Israel and offer our deepest heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of the victims,”

[uptheos]

David Cameron ✔ @David_Cameron

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I'm appalled by today's horrific attack on worshippers at a Jerusalem synagogue. My thoughts are with the victims' families.

[uptheos]

Kerry: Israel Synagogue Attack 'Pure Terror'

[Seastallion]

Allow me to take my response from elsewhere:

"The emotional reaction about this is totally understandable but needs to be put in perspective"

"Sad, but this is what happens"

"Enough with the bleeding heart attitudes"

I may have missed it, but I don't think any of your (our) detractors replied to this.

It would have been nice to see at least one honourable person relenting and saying, "OK, yep, I see my comment on the shot boy thread was harsh, sorry."

[Jingthing]

The obsessive hatred of Israel expressed here is truly disturbing. There is definitely something going on with that beyond the rational.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Kerry: Israel Synagogue Attack 'Pure Terror'

Exactly. A civilized man who knows the score.

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[harryfrompattaya]

The obsessive hatred of Israel expressed here is truly disturbing. There is definitely something going on with that beyond the rational.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

They hate Israel so much they are forget what Muslims are doing in the home country and in Thailand

Worry about your countries and Thailand forget about the Jews for minute

I worry about Nigeria United States England and Germany more than the Mid East

I doubt those Jews are going to behead you But they even behead Muslims lovers

[uptheos]

Stephen Harper ✔ @pmharper

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Canada condemns the barbaric act of terror against a synagogue in West Jerusalem. Our thoughts & prayers are with the people of Israel

[uptheos]

3m ago

16:02

Obama condemns 'horrific' attack

US President Barack Obama: “there is and can be no justification for such attacks against innocent civilians.”

His statement reads: “I strongly condemn today’s terrorist attack on worshipers at a synagogue in Jerusalem, which killed four innocent people, including US citizens Aryeh Kupinsky, Cary William Levine, and Moshe Twersky, and injured several more. There is and can be no justification for such attacks against innocent civilians.

“The thoughts and prayers of the American people are with the victims and families of all those who were killed and injured in this horrific attack and in other recent violence. At sensitive moment, it is all the more important for Israeli and Palestinian leaders and ordinary citizens to work cooperatively together to lower tensions, reject violence and seek a path forward towards peace.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/middle-east-live/live/2014/nov/18/jerusalem-synagogue-attack-live-updates#block-546b53d1e4b0ed49c78fc814

Edited November 18, 2014 by uptheos

[Morch]

Trouble has been brewing at the site of what the Israelis call the Temple Mount for some time.

There have been efforts on the part of some Jewish fundamentalists to change long standing arrangements.

Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority have agreed to take a series of practical steps to de-escalate the crisis over the Temple Mount, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Thursday.

Kerry was speaking after his tripartite meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Jordanian monarch King Abdullah II in Amman, which focused on defusing the tensions over the holy site, and putting a stop to the violence that has flared up recently in East Jerusalem. In the past few weeks, the city has seen riots, terror attacks and an assassination attempt.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.626387

Could you, perhaps, expand on which actual changes took place in the regulation and management of the Temple Mount

site? Were there any changes? Was there a government resolution to change anything? "Some Jewish fundamentalists"

lobbying to change things, even with the occasional provocation, is nothing new - been like that for ages. Nothing changed.

If anything, the regulations nowadays are even more restrictive for Jews than before. Having the same nut-jobs and some

provocative politicians do their thing is almost routine. Nothing comes out of it. Better question is how and why the current

situation got out of hand - and who benefits. As with many cases, this has more to do with the power struggles within each

side, and with the ease in which rumors are spread in these parts.

[Morch]

Few days a go, a Palestinian public bus transportation driver took his own life by committing suicide and hanged

himself, both the Palestinian and the Israeli pathologists have concurred and declare the death as such,

but yet, the Hamas and some other shit stirrers are inciting and stirring raw emotions and riots

saying he was murdered by the Jews... and calling for every one to violently protest....

comes to show, there will NEVER BE PEACE in this place, and that because simply put,

some groups on both side of the divide claim more that the owed and NOT REALLY

interested in any peace.... as peace will put an ends to their twisted and self gaining

agendas...

Well, not quite straightforward.

There was a Palestinian pathologist present at the autopsy, and he concurred with the Israeli findings.

The body was released, and returned to the family for burial. A day afterwards (or later the same day,

not clear on that), it was reported that the Palestinian pathologist changed his opinion. The Israelis are

claiming this was under pressure. I could have missed it, but haven't actually seen the pathologist himself

commenting on it one way or another.

As usual, shortage of details, overdoses of speculations. Sort of normal for the Middle East.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Morch

[Morch]

What does condemning terrorism mean? It means nothing It nothing but a con

Like someone who working in a bar smiling at you Or your bookie feeling sorry for you when you lose a big bet

It called lip service, whereby, diplomatically, you, as a head of that group has to look good

by uttering some nonsuccess so no will accuse you of not condemning the act, but not so deep

in their hearts, will know that they didn't meant a word of it...

But when they do not condemn it they get criticized as well...

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

[Jingthing]

The Hamas reaction.

Freedom fighters, huh?

Those pushing that ... come on now ... smell the Arabic coffee ...

Hamas Endorses a Massacre

Understanding the true genocidal nature of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch

...

Hamas's endorsement of the massacre of Jews at prayer in their holy city confirms—as if we needed confirming—that its goal is the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/hamas-shows-its-true-face/382873/?utm_content=bufferc6578&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Edited November 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Abbas did the right thing this time openly condemning terrorism. A nice change from his party making heroic martyrs of recent Palestinian murders of innocent Jews.

Hamas on the other hand, the most popular political party among the Palestinians, is openly calling for more similar terror attacks against civilian Jews.

"The attack in Jerusalem is a reaction to the crime and execution of the martyr al-Ramouni and a reaction to the crimes of the occupation, the Hamas movement is calling for more revenge attacks," Hamas said on its official Al-Aksa TV.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hamas-Jerusalem-synagogue-attack-in-response-to-death-of-Palestinian-bus-driver-found-hanged-382106

Yes he is calling for that, which frame it in your words sounds bad......but more importantly is "why?". He is calling for reaction to crimes of the occupation, and reaction to an execution. He is calling for revenge. (From JT's quote)

From that, I hazard that if Israel didn't occupy, execute, or commit crimes, he'd have nothing to call attacks for.

What execution would that be? The linkage here is to the death of a Palestinian which was ruled as suicide (see my previous

post for a bit more on that). Even if the claim that this was murder and not a suicide is proven true - it is not an "execution" by

Israel. What we have here is the Hamas trying to keep itself relevant and in the headlines, by fanning the flames.

You can hazard whatever you like, the Hamas definition of "occupation" does not stop at the 1967 borders.

Conjuring reasons for violence was never a problem in the Middle East.

[Morch]

Trouble has been brewing at the site of what the Israelis call the Temple Mount for some time.

There have been efforts on the part of some Jewish fundamentalists to change long standing arrangements.

Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority have agreed to take a series of practical steps to de-escalate the crisis over the Temple Mount, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Thursday.

Kerry was speaking after his tripartite meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Jordanian monarch King Abdullah II in Amman, which focused on defusing the tensions over the holy site, and putting a stop to the violence that has flared up recently in East Jerusalem. In the past few weeks, the city has seen riots, terror attacks and an assassination attempt.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.626387

How about something more recent by Kerry?

LONDON — U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry angrily condemned Tuesday’s deadly attack on a Jerusalem synagogue and demanded that the Palestinian leadership take immediate steps to end incitement to violence as Israeli-Palestinian tensions soared.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/john-kerry-condemns-attack-on-jerusalem-synagogue/2014/11/18/e1ddc0da-6efa-11e4-a2c2-478179fd0489_story.html

Good. Just as good a news piece.

Pity Kerry doesn't do much angry demanding when the terrorism is in the opposite direction. Or did he? Maybe, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

As I am sure you will recall, Kerry specifically, and the Obama administration in general came to verbal blows with the Israeli

leadership on more than one occasion. I believe that the wording in the statement above is quite routine, as these things go.

Both Israelis and Palestinians usually ignore these statements, only gets serious when they do the phone call or the visit.

It is a sort of ritual.

[Morch]

From the report,Netanyahu has vowed "to respond with a heavy hand to the deadliest attack in 6 years".

4 dead is the deadliest attack in SIX years?

I have grave fears. Netanyahu killed nearly 2000 in revenge for 3. What's he going to do "heavy handedly" for 4?

Hopefully it is only this weasely politician's rhetoric.

Instead of revenge, Netanyahu, why not look to the future and put an end to this now? Go to the peace table and sincerely find a way. Hamas has shown that no matter what you do, they will retaliate. If you really care about your citizens, don't give them more blood, give them peace. Do it the right way, with Abbas, and Hamas will lose their support in droves...a double bonus for Israel and Palestine.

Netanyahu vows with the best of Thai politicians.

For example, since the recent flare up, he talked mightily about demolishing houses of terrorists etc. - in reality, none were.

The assertion that the IDF operation in Gaza was in revenge of the 3 Israelis murdered, is your interpretation - and quite a

simplistic one, at that. The following equation is, therefore, groundless. Interestingly, you do not seem to be weary of the

Hamas fanning the flames as well, that's somehow acceptable, for some reason.

So discarding the revenge thing (which I don't think was brought up), Netanyahu is Netanyahu. No reason to expect him to

do anything bold. Despite the optimism displayed regarding the success chances of peace negotiations - it is far from being

that simple even if there was a will from both sides (and there isn't). Both Netanyahu and Abbas currently face rough times

as far as domestic politics go, both need to walk a tightrope regarding popular support and political partners.

The notion that Hamas will lose its popularity among Palestinians overnight is a fantasy. For one thing, negotiations will be

lengthy, with a lot of hurdles and setbacks. Overall situation will not necessarily improve quickly, and there will be ample

opportunities for elements on both sides to derail things.

[Morch]

The only hope going forward is that the Israeli people will wake up and realize that there is no path to peace with Netanyahu. As long as he is in power, these strategic actions will continue.

You are, of course, ignoring the possibility that a worse candidate will win. Worse as in to the right of Netanyahu, politically.

Or, for that matter, that the current crop of center/left leadership is dismal.

It is a maxim of Israeli politics that only a right wing led government can make peace. The rationale is that the center/left will

support a peace initiative regardless of being in opposition, whereas some of right wing vote may be swayed if it is "their"

move.

The thing about Netanyau is that while he loathes a compromise with the Palestinians, and dreads going down in history as

having Israel damaged on his watch - he's at the same time obsessed with political survival. Not much hope there, but a wee

better than some of the options.

And then there's that other side of the equation - the Palestinians. Sort of forgotten they are not all up for peace negotiations.

But that's somehow Israel's fault as well...

Strategic action? Really? Not a terrorist attack, then? Not a murder? Care to relate what the strategy might be and who

formulated it?

[Jingthing]

Distinguished liberal American academic and legal scholar Alan Dershowitz discusses the terror attack in Jerusalem:

http://launch.newsinc.com/share.html?trackingGroup=69016&siteSection=breitbartprivate&videoId=28167878

[wellred]

There should be a country carved out specifically for religious nutters to go off and fight each other.

[Jingthing]

There should be a country carved out specifically for religious nutters to go off and fight each other.

Texas?

[Seastallion]

Abbas did the right thing this time openly condemning terrorism. A nice change from his party making heroic martyrs of recent Palestinian murders of innocent Jews.

Hamas on the other hand, the most popular political party among the Palestinians, is openly calling for more similar terror attacks against civilian Jews.

"The attack in Jerusalem is a reaction to the crime and execution of the martyr al-Ramouni and a reaction to the crimes of the occupation, the Hamas movement is calling for more revenge attacks," Hamas said on its official Al-Aksa TV.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hamas-Jerusalem-synagogue-attack-in-response-to-death-of-Palestinian-bus-driver-found-hanged-382106

Yes he is calling for that, which frame it in your words sounds bad......but more importantly is "why?". He is calling for reaction to crimes of the occupation, and reaction to an execution. He is calling for revenge. (From JT's quote)

From that, I hazard that if Israel didn't occupy, execute, or commit crimes, he'd have nothing to call attacks for.

What execution would that be? The linkage here is to the death of a Palestinian which was ruled as suicide (see my previous

post for a bit more on that). Even if the claim that this was murder and not a suicide is proven true - it is not an "execution" by

Israel. What we have here is the Hamas trying to keep itself relevant and in the headlines, by fanning the flames.

You can hazard whatever you like, the Hamas definition of "occupation" does not stop at the 1967 borders.

Conjuring reasons for violence was never a problem in the Middle East.

"execution" was not my word, but quoted from JT's link. My post was in response to JT's claim of Hamas calling for more terror attacks, which was paraphrasing what Hams called for, it was JT's interpretation of the Hamas chap's words. I didn't (and don't) necessarily dispute that interpretation, but I did want to make clear that Hamas sees it as reaction, and from that I suggested, quite logically, that if there was nothing to react to, there could be no call for reaction.

Please recall I called the killers terrorists in my first post on this thread. I made no excuses or apologies for them.

I need to make a correction to your assertion that Hamas' definition of occupation does not stop at '67 borders. "Some hardliners within Hamas" would be more accurate. It's not accurate to say otherwise. This is not my opinion but on public record and accepted by most of the international players.

Yes, Hamas does need to try to keep itself relevant. I think they see the writing on the wall: If peace is struck between Fatah and Israel, Hamas will be seen for what they are by the ordinary Palestinians who just want peace but support Hamas because Hamas are resisting the occupation and the oppression. If peace brings about a cessation of occupation and oppression, Hamas becomes irrelevant.

Once the majority of people see that the extremists from both sides are conjurers (pulling reasons for violence out of a hat), I think we can be more optimistic.

[Jingthing]

Here is a direct response to the shocking labeling of these terrorists as "freedom fighters" from some on this forum and I'm sure many Palestinians who it is reported are celebrating these murders by sharing sweets on the streets. It is from a LIBERAL American Jewish newspaper with a history of being critical of more right wing Israeli policies. One can be critical of Israeli policies without demonizing the nation of Israel or cheerleading for terrorists ... and yes calling these murderers freedom fighters is doing that indeed.

The Har Nof neighborhood, where the attack occurred that left four dead and at least eight seriously injured, is not in East Jerusalem. It is not in contested land. It is on the internationally accepted side of the Green Line, within the state of Israel proper, as rooted to Israel as the Empire State Building is to New York.

So any gesture towards placing this in a large political context is disingenuous.

...

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/209439/an-inexcusable-act-of-terror-in-jerusalem/#ixzz3JSwIBy7a

A question to those who would call these terrorists "freedom fighters" would you also call a "freedom fighter" the attackers and murderers of visible Jews in today's Europe as long as they claim they are doing the killings for the Palestinian cause?

I will also add this. Because of the nature of this attack, in a house of worship, in WEST Jerusalem, in that the victims were mostly dual AMERICAN citizens, in that some PROMINENT people were murdered ... I think this event will turn out to be of some historical consequence going forward. We'll see.

Some background on the Palestinian reaction, also evidence of rabid antisemitism, as if we didn't know.

https://www.facebook.com/alBirehcity

Lovely Arab boys. What they're celebrating not so lovely:

Edited November 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

As noted earlier, I condemn the attack at the synagogue.

I also condemned Israeli attacks in Gaza on schools, hospitals, refugee camps, and mosques.

I also condemn Israeli actions in the West Bank, East Jerusalem etc.

[Jingthing]

As noted earlier, I condemn the attack at the synagogue.

I also condemned Israeli attacks in Gaza on schools, hospitals, refugee camps, and mosques.

I also condemn Israeli actions in the West Bank, East Jerusalem etc.

You can't just condemn this. You have to take a big dig at Israel.

It comes off as a RATIONALIZATION.

As stated in the Jewish Daily Forward:

http://forward.com/articles/209439/an-inexcusable-act-of-terror-in-jerusalem/#ixzz3JSwIBy7a

So any gesture towards placing this in a large political context is disingenuous.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

I can and do condemn it.

I can also see it in context . there is little difference between killing people at worship in a synagogue or a mosque.

[Seastallion]

From the report,Netanyahu has vowed "to respond with a heavy hand to the deadliest attack in 6 years".

4 dead is the deadliest attack in SIX years?

I have grave fears. Netanyahu killed nearly 2000 in revenge for 3. What's he going to do "heavy handedly" for 4?

Hopefully it is only this weasely politician's rhetoric.

Instead of revenge, Netanyahu, why not look to the future and put an end to this now? Go to the peace table and sincerely find a way. Hamas has shown that no matter what you do, they will retaliate. If you really care about your citizens, don't give them more blood, give them peace. Do it the right way, with Abbas, and Hamas will lose their support in droves...a double bonus for Israel and Palestine.

Netanyahu vows with the best of Thai politicians.

For example, since the recent flare up, he talked mightily about demolishing houses of terrorists etc. - in reality, none were.

The assertion that the IDF operation in Gaza was in revenge of the 3 Israelis murdered, is your interpretation - and quite a

simplistic one, at that. The following equation is, therefore, groundless. Interestingly, you do not seem to be weary of the

Hamas fanning the flames as well, that's somehow acceptable, for some reason.

So discarding the revenge thing (which I don't think was brought up), Netanyahu is Netanyahu. No reason to expect him to

do anything bold. Despite the optimism displayed regarding the success chances of peace negotiations - it is far from being

that simple even if there was a will from both sides (and there isn't). Both Netanyahu and Abbas currently face rough times

as far as domestic politics go, both need to walk a tightrope regarding popular support and political partners.

The notion that Hamas will lose its popularity among Palestinians overnight is a fantasy. For one thing, negotiations will be

lengthy, with a lot of hurdles and setbacks. Overall situation will not necessarily improve quickly, and there will be ample

opportunities for elements on both sides to derail things.

" is your interpretation - and quite a simplistic one, at that. The following equation is, therefore, groundless. ".

Sorry Morch, but that is a fallacious conclusion. Just because it is my opinion and simplistic does not make it untrue, therefore you can not discard "the following equation" based on those two things alone.

The notion that Hamas will lose it's popularity is not fantasy. I prefer optimistic. It is within the realms of possibility, and it is a desired result for everyone. I'll even go so far as to suggest that if everyone aimed for that goal, it would work, and work in everyone's favour....Everyone that is except the extreme right from either side.

[Seastallion]

As noted earlier, I condemn the attack at the synagogue.

I also condemned Israeli attacks in Gaza on schools, hospitals, refugee camps, and mosques.

I also condemn Israeli actions in the West Bank, East Jerusalem etc.

You can't just condemn this. You have to take a big dig at Israel.

It comes off as a RATIONALIZATION.

As stated in the Jewish Daily Forward:

http://forward.com/articles/209439/an-inexcusable-act-of-terror-in-jerusalem/#ixzz3JSwIBy7a

So any gesture towards placing this in a large political context is disingenuous.

Why not take a dig? If the cap fits, wear it. You're suggesting that only Hamas terrorists should be condemned. We condemn the murders in the synagogue, Part of your camp's arguments have often been we don't condemn the terrorist.We do...,.and we condemn atrocities from Israel.

But that would be antisemitism, wouldn't it? Or just an inconvenient truth?

[Ulysses G.]

As noted earlier, I condemn the attack at the synagogue.

I also condemned Israeli attacks in Gaza on schools, hospitals, refugee camps, and mosques.

I also condemn Israeli actions in the West Bank, East Jerusalem etc.

You can't just condemn this. You have to take a big dig at Israel.

It's called disingenuousness.

[jdinasia]

The obsessive hatred of Israel expressed here is truly disturbing. There is definitely something going on with that beyond the rational.

no one buys into the Anti-Semite accusation any longer.

Actually most people do. The widespread reporting on the anti-Semitic protests a few months ago let that cat out of the bag, but the Israel haters will continue to try to deny the obvious and hush it up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703023/Germany-condemns-rise-anti-Semitism-three-men-jailed-France-rioting-Paris-pro-Palestinian-protest-descended-attack-synagogue-Jewish-owned-businesses.html

A great example of "disingenuous" is to equate condemning Israel to anti-Semitism.

Many Jews condemn Israel.

[Scott]

Numerous posts removed (around 17) in this small clean up of the thread. Those removed included posts with messed up quotes, off-topic posts and numerous posts that are just plain inflammatory. Replies have also been removed.

Continued posting with the inflammatory remarks will earn suspensions. Emotions are high enough, there is no need to inflame them further with your choice of wording.