Buddhism_A Serious Discussion

[Brucenkhamen]

If that's true then the Buddhist canons need retranslating. I think you will find that most people do not consider 'desire' to be a neutral word. If I were to say I have a neutral desire for food, or a neutral desire to sleep, what on earth would that mean? I suggest it would mean that I don't mind if I eat or not, and I don't mind if I sleep or not.

That's a silly response. Of course nobody would say they had a neutral desire, however the word itself covers a range of experiences and not all of them negative.

However you made a good point about translation as it's quite common for translation from Pali to cause confusion, in Pali we have Chanda which is neutral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanda_(Buddhism)and Tanha which is negative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taṇhā

Those who eat because they desire food, tend to become overweight and obese.

Those who eat because they desire food survive.

I hardly think it would be considered all right for a monk to have sexual desires for the females filling his alms bowl on his morning rounds, on the condition that his desires did not become a craving.

Anybody who has a human body, particularly a young and male one will is going to have sexual desire your expectations are not realistic, it's physical, it's instinctual. A good monk trains himself to recognises it when it arises, watch how the mind wants to proliferate thoughts around it and let craving develop and realising this is impermanent, not self, and will never satisfy let go of it. If you don't invite unwelcome guests through the door they can't trash your place.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Brucenkhamen

[VincentRJ]

If that's true then the Buddhist canons need retranslating. I think you will find that most people do not consider 'desire' to be a neutral word. If I were to say I have a neutral desire for food, or a neutral desire to sleep, what on earth would that mean? I suggest it would mean that I don't mind if I eat or not, and I don't mind if I sleep or not.

That's a silly response. Of course nobody would say they had a neutral desire, however the word itself covers a range of experiences and not all of them negative.

Then why have you written that desires can be neutral if it would be silly for anyone to claim he has a neutral desire? I'm trying to cut through this web of confusion here and call a spade a spade.

Those who eat because they desire food survive.

But not necessarily for very long. They will likely become obese and suffer medical problems early in life. Those who eat only nutritious food to satisfy hunger, without desire for fine tasting, succulent chocolates etc, will likely live a long and healthy life.

　

Anybody who has a human body, particularly a young and male one will is going to have sexual desire your expectations are not realistic, it's physical, it's instinctual. A good monk trains himself to recognises it when it arises, watch how the mind wants to proliferate thoughts around it and let craving develop and realising this is impermanent, not self, and will never satisfy let go of it. If you don't invite unwelcome guests through the door they can't trash your place.

Of course. I understand that. I'm a male and was young once. Desires are not only perfectly normal but necessary for economic prosperity. All the fancy goods, designer clothes, TV sets, sleek cars, iPhones full of bells and whistles, succulent hamburgers dripping with tasty fats and sugars, are all created to satisfy peoples' desires.

If everyone were to lead the lifestyle of a monk in search of enlightenment, the economy would collapse. Only communities like the heretical Santi Asoke, who are self-sufficient, would survive.

Have you already forgotten? I was addressing Trd's comment or implication that after awakening we still have desires. The normal population at large is clearly not 'awakened'.

[RandomSand]

I would think that after a person has been 'awakened', he/she will have conquered all sensual desire for food. One will eat only because one is hungry. If one has knowledge of nutrition and one has a choice of food, one will choose the food that is the most nutritious, rather than wallow in the sensual delight of fine chocolate.

Is it possible for an "awakened" person to lie or communicate in a manner which creates disingenuous impressions in another person ?

("a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse")

Edited December 7, 2014 by RandomSand

[VincentRJ]

I would think that after a person has been 'awakened', he/she will have conquered all sensual desire for food. One will eat only because one is hungry. If one has knowledge of nutrition and one has a choice of food, one will choose the food that is the most nutritious, rather than wallow in the sensual delight of fine chocolate.

Is it possible for an "awakened" person to lie or communicate in a manner which creates disingenuous impressions in another person ?

("a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse")

One would not expect an awakened person to lie, but the creation of a disingenuous impression is the responsibility of the person who holds and forms such an impression. All impressions are created in the mind of the beholder.

The wise words of the Buddha in the Kalama Sutta advises people not to accept something uncritically when it doesn't make sense or when it doesn't seem correct.

[Brucenkhamen]

Then why have you written that desires can be neutral if it would be silly for anyone to claim he has a neutral desire? I'm trying to cut through this web of confusion here and call a spade a spade.

The word is neutral (at least in the way I'm using it here), it can cover a range experiences from positive desires (wanting to save the world for example) to negative desires (wanting to shag anything that moves for example), please read more carefully.

But not necessarily for very long. They will likely become obese and suffer medical problems early in life. Those who eat only nutritious food to satisfy hunger, without desire for fine tasting, succulent chocolates etc, will likely live a long and healthy life.

I have desires for food at least 3 times a day, 7 days a week, I'm yet to suffer from obesity... just a little bit of middle aged spread. But you've brought up a good example of comparing positive desire (for healthy food) versus negative desire (for a sugar fix).

Have you already forgotten? I was addressing Trd's comment or implication that after awakening we still have desires. The normal population at large is clearly not 'awakened'.[/font][/size]

I don't know whether TRD meant to use the word desire the way you understand it, or in the way I understand it, my point is that what awakening brings to the table is the ability to see a desire that is unwholesome for what it is and let go of it before it snowballs into craving and becomes a cause for Dukkha. To expect these impulses to never come up I think is unrealistic, some are part and parcel of being in human body others the result of past kamma yet to work itself out.

[trd]

They will likely become obese and suffer medical problems early in life. Those who eat only nutritious food to satisfy hunger, without desire for fine tasting, succulent chocolates etc, will likely live a long and healthy life.

Try telling that to the fat Chinese Buddha.

[trd]

Some bizarre ideas here that awakening somehow negates or erases the habits and characteristics of body. Even for the awakened, the body gets sick and eventually dies. What does it matter what happens to body. It is just a coat you wear and then discard. What does body have to do with ME?

[mccw]

They will likely become obese and suffer medical problems early in life. Those who eat only nutritious food to satisfy hunger, without desire for fine tasting, succulent chocolates etc, will likely live a long and healthy life.

Try telling that to the fat Chinese Buddha.

You know the " Chinese Buddha " is not Buddha but one of his monks who intentionally turned himself to be fat and unattractive? There is a whole story about it; his purpose to be unattractive so his previous good looks would not longer lead to improper thoughts in others as he was a monk.

[mccw]

Can all you guys clear up what you are talking about "awakened" ? Is it equal to enlightened in your use of it?

From the chat here it sounds like just being aware of the nature of the mind.

There is a lot more to see than just this. I wouldn't presume to call myself "enlightened" based on this one insight.

Is "awakened" in your use just referring to realising this one insight while enlightenment is still a goal your heading towards, "working" towards?

Sounds like trd especially thinks he is already there and Karma has been "burnt up" ; where does this "burning of karma" idea come from?; burning karma from insight, I never heard of this before- but then I purposely don't read too much so as not to inhibit experiences with mind/ intellect popping up with links that aren't really there. Does any of you guys who read the sutras seen anything about this?

Btw the master cond like

[mccw]

Can all you guys clear up what you are talking about "awakened" ? Is it equal to enlightened in your use of it?

From the chat here it sounds like just being aware of the nature of the mind.

There is a lot more to see than just this. I wouldn't presume to call myself "enlightened" based on this one insight.

Is "awakened" in your use just referring to realising this one insight while enlightenment is still a goal your heading towards, "working" towards?

Sounds like trd especially thinks he is already there and Karma has been "burnt up" ; where does this "burning of karma" idea come from?; burning karma from insight, I never heard of this before- but then I purposely don't read too much so as not to inhibit experiences with mind/ intellect popping up with links that aren't really there. Does any of you guys who read the sutras seen anything about this?

Btw the master cond like

ifnore last sentence above

[trd]

Basically through the practice of awareness of the breath cycle one realises the same thing. The space between breaths and all phenomena is what I call the "clear point of awareness" or the "nothing" point before any things arise and fall through in the awareness. All things being impermanent as such.

Yes, I agree with you. The gap between thoughts or perception is that clear point you describe which is just awareness or knowingness without being tainted by an object. Language is always a problem when trying to describe that which cannot be described.

Only I am not certain of escaping the karmic cycle since I am still producing actions. The best I try and do is be mindful and so create as much good karma as possible and hopefully have a good rebirth and such to continue good things and not fall down the levels to greater suffering.

I do not think that one could realise the nature of this non-self/ nothingness / clear point of awareness and then go out and kill and murder people and not be subject to negative karmic effects for example.

Good karma cannot by itself lead to awakening. And that is because no matter how many good actions you perform, these are produced by something which is limited, whereas knowledge of the True Self is beyond any limitations of mind. Something which is limited, no matter how many million good actions you perform, can never add up the infinite state of self knowledge. So all karma must be eradicated. By that I mean the realization that action and the fruits of action are separate from the transcendent Self. In a state of ignorance, there is an apparent limited self which identifies with these actions and proclaims, " these are my actions".

New actions produced after awakening are just habits of the body/mind. If they do not produce further impressions or more seeds of desire leading to further cravings, they are of no consequence.

I am not sure if past karma gets "burned up" by just becoming aware of how the nature if mind/ existence is.

Perhaps burned up is confusing. I mean neutralized. Having no further effects. But any temporary insights into that inner nature will not do it. It has to be a complete and irreversible collapse of the ego. When that happens there is no mistaking it. There is no doubt whatsoever. No uncertainty. No questions will arise to doubt it. Yet life goes on.

Edited December 8, 2014 by trd

[trd]

I

You say kinda "just do it" ; but most people need to take a time and method to get to such a realisation. Some can from sitting practice; others simple awareness, other ways too; could be quick or take years.

Everybody different.

So best no to discourage people from practices which can help them to realisation also improve their lives.

Talking of time, Vincent said that he has such a busy life, he doesn't have time for practice. If you are too busy to meditate - you are too busy.

So yes mccw, I agree that it takes time. I meditated for an hour every day for 35 years with a busy career and social life. I did miss a few days of practice now and again. I do not discourage, but I do feel the need to point others in the right direction and not waste valuable time.

Edited December 8, 2014 by trd

[2fishin2]

Another "manmade" religion.

[mccw]

I say this in case could be helpful for people.

On the thoughts like desires or anything else.

In my experience with the breath cycle practice. One can dissipate / let go of the thoughts very quickly, such as one or a few breaths; where as before I might get stuck on them for longer.

Since training more and more; I have found not only the thought go quicker but the negative thoughts arise less frequently. Now hardly at all. A few times a day.

In the future I expect such development to continue and have weeks or even eventually months with out improper thoughts. I am sure the real well practiced and purified high monks are such a way; probably going years or finishing to have such thoughts arise completely.

I'm not say it is "wrong" to have thoughts; obviously they just pop up of their own accord and it's up to us to choose what to do with them. But I can say certainly the types of thoughts and the frequency changes with practice and purification.

Also on "desire" topic.

For a while now I stopped "feeling" hungry/ desiring food. Some times I do feel a bit like grumble in my belly and I think - that's probably meaning I should eat something. But 90% of eating I do because I realise I must eat to stay alive; not because I desire taste or food/ eating sensation or "feel" hungry. Some times I skip meals because I am busy, but I still do not feel hungry.

Another kind of desire- sexual desire; i have found when staying in the temple it arises less and some days not at all. I keep for normal life by choice for my wife; but don't suffer from like a physical urge so much, but can choose consciously. I behold beauty but dissipate the attachment to it/ link and not let a thought or craving process continue.

You "awakened" guys. I urge you not to sit back and think you have attained the highest level and no need to keep practice or so deep practice.

The awareness of every breath practice will open whole.new areas to you; probably quickly too since you already have some insight and good practice experience.

In , observe the space between the breaths, out , and so on.

Try to observe the place in the cycle when the phenomena, sense or thought, emotion etc, what ever it is, see when I comes to the attention; and crucially when it leaves the attention. When you find this point it's like unlocking a mental key; everything / attachment can be dissipated quickly and one can develop self purification. Also opens wider areas of insight.

Personally so far areas of energy and some experience of spirit and other levels of existence.

For example I can see with eyes open energy and am begging to have some success channeling energy for good purposes. There are many kinds of energy. I won't go in to too much detail; best each person see such things for themselves.

This forum is a great example of how words and meanings are extremely subjective and tricky.

[mccw]

I

You say kinda "just do it" ; but most people need to take a time and method to get to such a realisation. Some can from sitting practice; others simple awareness, other ways too; could be quick or take years.

Everybody different.

So best no to discourage people from practices which can help them to realisation also improve their lives.

Talking of time, Vincent said that he has such a busy life, he doesn't have time for practice. If you are too busy to meditate - you are too busy.

So yes mccw, I agree that it takes time. I meditated for an hour every day for 35 years with a busy career and social life. I did miss a few days of practice now and again. I do not discourage, but I do feel the need to point others in the right direction and not waste valuable time.

My point of practice I talk of is can be any and all time no matter busy with life, family , job or what ever. This is what I have do e and it's working great.

[mccw]

Tdr I see u answered my "burned up question" already while I was writing another post.

Thanks.

I think you should try this all day all the time breath awareness practice as an experiment to see what happens. You might be surprised.

[trd]

They will likely become obese and suffer medical problems early in life. Those who eat only nutritious food to satisfy hunger, without desire for fine tasting, succulent chocolates etc, will likely live a long and healthy life.

Try telling that to the fat Chinese Buddha.

You know the " Chinese Buddha " is not Buddha but one of his monks who intentionally turned himself to be fat and unattractive? There is a whole story about it; his purpose to be unattractive so his previous good looks would not longer lead to improper thoughts in others as he was a monk.

Thank you Vincent. I can always rely on you for factual accuracy

It is a mistake to think that awakening produces a particular kind of cloned individual whose every action somehow conforms to an idea of what enlightened behavior might or should be. Here's an example from Nisargadatta Maharaj who took only 3 years to realize. Nisargadatta had a string of shops selling those foul Indian cigarettes called bidis. After he realized, he sold all but one of them to generate enough income to support his family. He continued to smoke like a chimney even during his satsangs and eventually died of throat cancer.

This is from a question and answer session from the book, "I am That".

Q: My body influences me deeply. In more than one way my body is my destiny. My character, my moods, the nature of my reactions, my desires and fears -- inborn or acquired -- they are all based on the body. A little alcohol, some drug or other and all changes. Until the drug wears off I become another man.

M: All this happens because you think yourself to be the body. realise your real self and even drugs will have no power over you.

Q: You smoke?

M: My body kept a few habits which may as well continue till it dies. There is no harm in them.

Q: You eat meat?

M: I was born among meat-eating people and my children are eating meat. I eat very little -- and make no fuss.

Q: Meat-eating implies killing.

M: Obviously. I make no claims of consistency. You think absolute consistency is possible; prove it by example. Don't preach what you do not practise. Coming back to the idea of having been born. You are stuck with what your parents told you: all about conception, pregnancy and birth, infant, child, youngster, teenager, and so on. Now, divest yourself of the idea that you are the body with the help of the contrary idea that you are not the body. It is also an idea, no doubt; treat it like something to be abandoned when its work is done. The idea that I am not the body gives reality to the body, when in fact, there is no such thing as body, it is but a state of mind. You can have as many bodies and as diverse as you like; just remember steadily what you want and reject the incompatibles.

[trd]

Tdr I see u answered my "burned up question" already while I was writing another post.

Thanks.

I think you should try this all day all the time breath awareness practice as an experiment to see what happens. You might be surprised.

As long as pure awareness is only glimpsed from time to time as it is distracted by external phenomena, then practice is necessary. But when it is permanently established with no possibility of the mind becoming disturbed, then what is the use of practice?

[Brucenkhamen]

Can all you guys clear up what you are talking about "awakened" ? Is it equal to enlightened in your use of it?

Enlightenment is a period of european history, I think it's quite a poor translation of the pali word Bodhi as it carries a lot of baggage nowadays so I don't like using it. Awakened is a more literal and clearer translation. In a Buddhist context both words are synonymous and also pretty much synonymous with Nibbana.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Brucenkhamen

[mccw]

Btw- I say "see energy" that's literal. Also can feel i, different kinds have different sensations and the body can become hollow or clear and awareness moves to the energy system/ flows as another level of the impermanent existence. So many details in this area alone; probably I am just at a few paces in to the start of this awareness area.

Energy beings and spirit worlds. Opening further now; but again just peering through a crack of the door most probably.

This is annomous forum so I say what I would not normally tell anyone or than those very close and open; master monk, wife and people with similar purpose/ experience and only then if the opening to such an area topic came up naturally.

So- I say now Just Incase the words might help others thinking/ perspective.

Some trapped in suffering spirits now connect to me; sometime in my vision, some time in physical way like poking or pressing on my chest and wind pipe; I can now channel / consciously give my merits and the peace, loving kindness energy to them and alleviate or even a few have been released and moved to next life.

I also received teaching and guidance from what I call "energy beings"; for example some technique for channeling energy, which my master confirmed to be real.

As always such things I filter through the breath and bare in mind the principles of love and kindness; so can not be tricked in to the opposite.

[Brucenkhamen]

As long as pure awareness is only glimpsed from time to time as it is distracted by external phenomena, then practice is necessary. But when it is permanently established with no possibility of the mind becoming disturbed, then what is the use of practice?

To be an example to one's students, the Buddha still meditated, practiced the standards of sila and vinaya he expected of others, and still practiced the Jhanas after his enlightenment. I much prefer to be with teachers that lead by example.

[Brucenkhamen]

Another "manmade" religion.

Yes, more women are needed in the religion making business, then we'd have less dogmatism and more intuitive awareness.

[mccw]

Others have seen the same as me and confined independently or said of the same thing with out my first having mentioned anything about it.

I not say this here to boast or to anything other than example that awareness of the nature of self/ mind is just one area of awareness and there are many more things can expanding awareness to.

I don't want anything from you guys.

I just say to example and hopefully aid you to not give up practice but continue to "awaken".

[trd]

As long as pure awareness is only glimpsed from time to time as it is distracted by external phenomena, then practice is necessary. But when it is permanently established with no possibility of the mind becoming disturbed, then what is the use of practice?

To be an example to one's students, the Buddha still meditated, practiced the standards of sila and vinaya he expected of others, and still practiced the Jhanas after his enlightenment. I much prefer to be with teachers that lead by example.

No he did not. He was always in meditation since his awakening. What would he have to do? He merely sat with his devotees. From their perspective, they perceived someone who appeared to be meditating. When he walked, he appeared to be walking. That tells you nothing of his state. Edited December 8, 2014 by trd

[mccw]

The Buddha said apparently the knowledge he taught was just like a gain of sand compared to all he had seen (or words to that effect). He discussed 7 areas of awareness; energy was one, non self another.

You are all talking of just one area as if it equals full awakening.

Even to awaken to all areas there are still more not discussed.

I urge you all to keep practice and deepen your practice.

Don't let ego trick you in to thinking you know everything already. Nor insight from one area lead to imagination / intellectual conjecture in to other areas where not had direct experience; and even then when do get experience do not hold on too tight to that experience since there may well be more after that still further.

The Buddha apparently only taught the bare essentials of what he considered important; beyond his teachings there is even more ones awareness can see and which he saw but did not teach on.

Perhaps not all these things are very important but don't assume you have reached any kind of limit or full knowledge just yet chaps.

Enough from me.

Well wishes to all in their journey.

[Brucenkhamen]

No he did not. He was always in meditation since his awakening. What would he have to do? He merely sat with his devotees. From their perspective, they perceived someone who appeared to be meditating. When he walked, he appeared to be walking. That tells you nothing of his state.

He didn't meditate because he was always meditating... that's a bit of unnecessary hair splitting considering we essentially made the same point.

It's because you like to label a state of mind that is stable and aware without the need to do anything special as meditation, up to you but it's a bit like labelling the state of fitness as exercise. The pali word we translate as meditation is bhavana which means cultivation, what was he cultivating when sitting or walking? surely the ground was already cultivated.

The point is he led by example, and as I said that's the kind of teacher I like.

[trd]

No he did not. He was always in meditation since his awakening. What would he have to do? He merely sat with his devotees. From their perspective, they perceived someone who appeared to be meditating. When he walked, he appeared to be walking. That tells you nothing of his state.

He didn't meditate because he was always meditating... that's a bit of unnecessary hair splitting considering we essentially made the same point.

It's because you like to label a state of mind that is stable and aware without the need to do anything special as meditation, up to you but it's a bit like labelling the state of fitness as exercise. The pali word we translate as meditation is bhavana which means cultivation, what was he cultivating when sitting or walking? surely the ground was already cultivated.

The point is he led by example, and as I said that's the kind of teacher I like.

It is certainly not hair splitting. Just in case you missed it I repeat something from a post I made yesterday:

To be established in silent unbounded awareness is effortless, choiceless and permanent. There is no need to meditate to maintain it or to practice anything whatsoever. When we use the word "meditation", most people, myself included, talk of it as a practice. It is convenient to do so. But actually, meditation is not a practice. It is something that happens when the mind is still. When a practice results in the mind becoming still and pure, then there exists a state of meditation. Therefore if silence is established as a permanent state, you can say you are always in meditation, but choicelessly and effortlessly. Before awakening, some intention and effort is required so we see it as a "practice", something you do.

I never said there was no need to do something special like meditation. A few posts ago I revealed that I had meditated one hour a day for 35 years. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the posts.

[trd]

Btw- I say "see energy" that's literal. Also can feel i, different kinds have different sensations and the body can become hollow or clear and awareness moves to the energy system/ flows as another level of the impermanent existence. So many details in this area alone; probably I am just at a few paces in to the start of this awareness area.

Energy beings and spirit worlds. Opening further now; but again just peering through a crack of the door most probably.

This is annomous forum so I say what I would not normally tell anyone or than those very close and open; master monk, wife and people with similar purpose/ experience and only then if the opening to such an area topic came up naturally.

So- I say now Just Incase the words might help others thinking/ perspective.

Some trapped in suffering spirits now connect to me; sometime in my vision, some time in physical way like poking or pressing on my chest and wind pipe; I can now channel / consciously give my merits and the peace, loving kindness energy to them and alleviate or even a few have been released and moved to next life.

I also received teaching and guidance from what I call "energy beings"; for example some technique for channeling energy, which my master confirmed to be real.

As always such things I filter through the breath and bare in mind the principles of love and kindness; so can not be tricked in to the opposite.

Two people board a train. The destination is Nirvana. One passenger sleeps all the way to Nirvana, but the other looks out of the window and becomes attracted to the flashing lights of the towns and stations as they hurtle by. He may become tired of all these lights and eventually reach his destination. But he might begin to think there is something to be learnt from these lights and decide it would be worth pursuing them. So he gets out at the next stop and starts to focus on the lights and believes he can use them in some way to better himself and perhaps give himself power over others who do not have the special abilities to understand the lights. He may then spend all his time on the study of these lights and never reach his destination.

The point of this is that all phenomena, that of the ordinary mundane world as well as that of the supranormal is all samsara. To focus on powers is particularly dangerous because of the fascination they hold. While it is true that some special abilities may come as part of awakening, it is more often the case that they are totally unrelated to awakening and serve as a distraction and are an obstacle on the path of true knowledge which is to know the one eternal transcendent Self. There is nothing else worth knowing. Such powers may come without choice, so they should be treated the same way as all the other imposters which are unreal.

[Brucenkhamen]

To be established in silent unbounded awareness is effortless, choiceless and permanent. There is no need to meditate to maintain it or to practice anything whatsoever. When we use the word "meditation", most people, myself included, talk of it as a practice. It is convenient to do so. But actually, meditation is not a practice. It is something that happens when the mind is still. When a practice results in the mind becoming still and pure, then there exists a state of meditation. Therefore if silence is established as a permanent state, you can say you are always in meditation, but choicelessly and effortlessly.

As I already pointed out meditation is a poor translation of the word cultivation, so when the mind is still when silence is established as a permanent state, what needs to be cultivated? If nothing needs to be cultivated then the word is inappropriate in this context and only serving to confuse the reader.

Before awakening, some intention and effort is required so we see it as a "practice", something you do.

"Before awakening" is the most important part here, I'd wager odds are 99.999...% of your readers here are not yet fully awakened, so the rest of your paragraph is not really relevant. Except for the fact it is part of a sub-thread speculating about the state of mind of the Buddha arising from your question "But when it is permanently established with no possibility of the mind becoming disturbed, then what is the use of practice?".

I don't know about your gurus but most vipassana and mindfulness teachers stress the importance of cultivation being as continuous as possible, the importance of meditation not just as being sitting on a cushion but a continuous daily practice lifestyle of bringing the mind into present awareness, into stillness too if you like. Of course teachers need to stress this because we all tend start on the path with the notion that it's all about sitting and we need to unlearn that.

So for the 99.999...% pre awakened among us you're preaching to the converted albeit with mismatched terminology, and of course for the awakened as I already asked what do they need to cultivate?

I never said there was no need to do something special like meditation. A few posts ago I revealed that I had meditated one hour a day for 35 years. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the posts.

Good for you, one does have to go through a process of cultivation before the mind becomes natural and effortless, so if 35 years ago somebody told you just to make the mind still and all would be well could you do it? I think not, not without all of that cultivation, certainly that's how it has been for me. Personally I've found a combination of intensive retreats together with a practice of continually coming back present moment awareness and stillness of mind throughout the day more rewarding that the daily sitting.

[Brucenkhamen]

Two people board a train. The destination is Nirvana.

Their first mistake was in thinking of Nibbana as a destination.