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Tamir Rice shooting: Call for US replica gun law change


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Tamir Rice shooting: Call for US replica gun law change

(BBC) The fatal shooting by US police of a 12-year-old boy brandishing a replica gun in a playground has prompted calls for the guns to be more clearly marked.


Tamir Rice was shot twice by police in Cleveland after he allegedly failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

The city's police chief said it was a "split second" decision and the gun was indistinguishable from a real firearm.

A local politician says she intends to introduce legislation forcing fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured.

An official investigation is under way and both police officers involved have been placed on administrative leave.

A lawyer representing the boy's family said they would be carrying out their own investigation into what happened.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30181338

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-- BBC 2014-11-25

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One thing about the USA a new law is created many times per day.

I think I remember at the start of 2012 there were something like 40,000 new laws put into effect.

Thing is it is always a knee jerk law which will require another knee jerk law.

This one if passed will probably beget the next law prohibiting dying the metal of real firearms to a bright color.

But of course there are already pink AR-15's, handguns etc. & those will be exempt facepalm.gif

Laws,laws everywhere a law ;)

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

Please, don't use that hackneyed phrase "if it saves one childs life" ! The parents allowed the 12 year old boy to have an imitaion pistol in the playground (probably belonged to Dad?). The police responded to a real threat and acted according to their training, only an act by the 12 year old could have saved his life.

Don't blame the police or the toy, the boy thought he was in a movie (perhaps?) and paid the penalty, he could have been "train surfing" and suffered the same fate! Kismet......? sad.pngsad.pngwai.gif

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How about taking the guns away from the police... Seems logical to me as they have been killing unarmed citizens at an alarming rate... This is the second case in the last week of cops shooting and killing unarmed people in the US without cause...

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How about taking the guns away from the police... Seems logical to me as they have been killing unarmed citizens at an alarming rate... This is the second case in the last week of cops shooting and killing unarmed people in the US without cause...

That is an interesting proposal. And how do you think this news would be received by people who frequently use phrases in their facebook and twitter pages such as "pig", "n%gga", "cracker" and "polar bear hunting"?

Is there any implication in this last question that is absolutely not true?

So let's contain the environment which surrounds the problem, and everyone in that environment, who surrounds the problem, and leave the problem itself all alone, to evolve and grow with nurture and support, right?

So, what exactly will be the benefits of adding to the unrestrained hate problem in the USA, by removing a limiter ("taking the guns away from the police") on violent acts as a result of said hate?

Simply curious, is all...

Edited by cup-O-coffee
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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

.

What happens if a child has a real gun, that's been painted pink?

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I personally would not allow my children to play with toy guns - guns are not a "toy". If they are going to have guns it would be for hunting or target practice, but never "toy guns".... If they want to shoot each other - they will have to use their fingers :P

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A local politician says she intends to introduce legislation forcing fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly colored.

Yep, make more laws.

In the meantime, maybe not allowing your twelve year old to run around publicly with such a toy, would also make him less likely not to be shot.

Paint him white also.

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I hate this sort of thing, another knee jerk reaction when it isn't due. A kid is dead because his parents raised him poorly, not because of the color of his toy. He should have been raised to immediately follow orders from a police officer, and maybe where certain activities are and are not appropriate. Things like this can't be legislated out of existence. The article says the boy took the orange plastic off the barrel of the gun, so his intent was to make it look more realistic. If the gun was all orange, he could easily have just painted it black.

As for not letting children play with toy guns, are cars just a toy? Would you let them play with those? What if they take your keys, drive down the road and plow into a few pedestrians? How about dolls, do they teach children that people can be playthings? Toys are toys, "safe" representations of things they will come into contact with as adults. bkkcanuck8, I'm not trying to attack you, how you raise your children is your own prerogative, I'm just pointing out the issue.

The problem is responsibility. Having a child makes the parent responsible for their behavior. It's an idea that many people these days don't seem to understand. The fault here lies in the parents for raising a child to think that any of this behavior was acceptable. Instead of recognizing where the issue lies, the media will focus the blame on absolutely everyone else. The police, the manufacturer of the toy, inadequate laws, the parks staff, absolutely everyone except the parents. This same routine happens every time a child dies.

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The bad bro's will just love it when they paint their own weapons. The brightest designs might even get recognition in the Hood. And it may even provide you with the opportunity to shoot first while the good guys are confused.

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And if I was the father of that kid. i would personally hunt down the police who killed him and extract my own personal form of justice. Even if it got me killed.

So let's change it around a bit. Instead of a toy modified to look real, let's say it's a 12 year old with a real gun, pulling it on other children at a park. Police show up, and instead of shooting they taze him. Since tazing makes the muscles spasm, the boy inadvertently fires a stray round into your child's head, who was nearby playing on the swings. Who are you extracting your vigilante justice from now?

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That would be a good change, well, until criminals start walking around with brightly colored guns that are real.

The barrels on Air Soft guns already are colored florescence orange. Perhaps the local PD should all have eye tests in order to discern florescence orange from gun metal grey.

Edited by connda
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A local politician says she intends to introduce legislation forcing fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly colored.

Yep, make more laws.

In the meantime, maybe not allowing your twelve year old to run around publicly with such a toy, would also make him less likely not to be shot.

Paint him white also.

The available Internet statistics on behavior and attitude amongst children in the USA would not necessitate doing this. There is a very real threat to the safety of American citizens from violent behavior and attitudes in children and teenagers. The available Internet statistics on behavior and attitude amongst children in the USA would point to a particular demographic long before any officers get a 911 call from a victim and have to show up on the scene to deal with it.

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That would be a good change, well, until criminals start walking around with brightly colored guns that are real.

The barrels on Air Soft guns already are colored florescence orange. Perhaps the local PD should all have eye tests in order to discern florescence orange from gun metal grey.

.

From the article:

Police said the orange safety indicator on the replica gun Tamir Rice was carrying, which resembled a semi-automatic pistol, had been removed.

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How about taking the guns away from the police... Seems logical to me as they have been killing unarmed citizens at an alarming rate... This is the second case in the last week of cops shooting and killing unarmed people in the US without cause...

That is an interesting proposal. And how do you think this news would be received by people who frequently use phrases in their facebook and twitter pages such as "pig", "n%gga", "cracker" and "polar bear hunting"?

Is there any implication in this last question that is absolutely not true?

So let's contain the environment which surrounds the problem, and everyone in that environment, who surrounds the problem, and leave the problem itself all alone, to evolve and grow with nurture and support, right?

So, what exactly will be the benefits of adding to the unrestrained hate problem in the USA, by removing a limiter ("taking the guns away from the police") on violent acts as a result of said hate?

Simply curious, is all...

Not really surprised why people who use phrases "pig" etc... want to go polar bear hunting.

Looking these videos where sick sadistic aholes who are allowed to wear batches kill and torture people.

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Ok I'm A NRA member over Forty plus years a Vietnam Veteran, More laws aren't needed But a Total ban on all toy guns is needed. If you give a child a toy gun he will point it at people. I don't own any guns nor do I allow them in my home Guns are made for one thing that is to kill.

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

.

What happens if a child has a real gun, that's been painted pink?

Non-lethal force used when a child of 12 is involved? They are stopped from being a danger and suffer the consequences of pointing a weapon at a police officer. Or is the purpose to kill?

Edited by wwest5829
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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

Please, don't use that hackneyed phrase "if it saves one childs life" ! The parents allowed the 12 year old boy to have an imitaion pistol in the playground (probably belonged to Dad?). The police responded to a real threat and acted according to their training, only an act by the 12 year old could have saved his life.

Don't blame the police or the toy, the boy thought he was in a movie (perhaps?) and paid the penalty, he could have been "train surfing" and suffered the same fate! Kismet......?

Not too long after WW II I played with toy guns, play machine guns also. We're my parents irresponsible and I was deserving of death when on the playground? Evidently we have a different value of a child's life. Was the end obtainable by the use of non-lethal force? Yes, it was. Police can use tasers, bean bag shots, even a shot to the extremity, etc. I want police protected but I do not subscribe to the use of lethal force if not necessary to disarm the threat.

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

.

What happens if a child has a real gun, that's been painted pink?

Non-lethal force used when a child of 12 is involved? They are stopped from being a danger and suffer the consequences of pointing a weapon at a police officer. Or is the purpose to kill?

FYI, there are armed 12 year olds who carry out shootings successfully. No doubt the police are conscious of exactly this type situation. http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303448104579149674154922120

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Here is what I think that the boy and his idiot father and stupid homie friend should have known, as well as the stupid local politician to understand that there is already a law in existence in the city of Cleveland, Ohio:

627.10 Possessing Certain Weapons at or About Public Places

(a) No person shall knowingly carry, have in his or her possession or ready at hand any handgun, BB gun, pellet gun, dangerous ordnance, shotgun, rifle, knife having a blade two and one-half (2-1/2) inches in length or longer, brass knuckles, cestus, billy, karate stick, blackjack, sword or saber while at or about a public place.

As used in this section, “public place” means any place to which the general public has access and a right to resort for business, entertainment or other lawful purpose, but does not necessarily mean a place devoted solely to the uses of the public. It also includes the front or immediate area of any store, shop, restaurant, tavern or other place of business and any grounds, areas or parks where persons would congregate.

© This section does not apply to officers, agents or employees of this or any other state or the United States, to law enforcement officers authorized to carry or possess deadly weapons or to persons with private or special police commissions, and acting within the scope of their duties.

(d) This section shall not apply if any weapon in division (a) of this section was part of a public weapon display, show or exhibition, or was in the possession of a person participating in an organized match, competition or practice session.

(e) It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section that the actor was not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the weapon, and that the weapon was kept ready at hand by the actor for defense purposes, while he or she was engaged in his or her lawful business or occupation, which business or occupation was of such character or at such a place as to render the actor particularly susceptible to criminal attack, such as would justify a prudent man in having the weapon ready at hand.

(f) It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section that the actor was not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a knife having a blade two and one-half (2-1/2) inches in length or longer, and that either (i) the actor at the time was engaged in a lawful business or pursuit and that business or pursuit requires a knife having a blade two and one-half (2-1/2) inches in length or longer as a tool of trade or pursuit, or (ii) the knife having a blade two and one-half (2-1/2) inches in length or longer was kept ready at hand by the actor for defense purposes, while he or she was engaged in his or her lawful business or occupation, which business or occupation was of such character or at such a place as to render the actor particularly susceptible to criminal attack, such as would justify a prudent man in having such a knife ready at hand.

(g) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 601.13 and division (a) of Section 601.99, whoever violates this section is guilty of possessing certain weapons on or about public places and shall be fined not less than three hundred dollars ($300.00), nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000.00), and imprisoned for not less than three (3) days, nor more than six (6) months. No part of this sentence shall, in any case whatsoever, be suspended or otherwise reduced.

(Ord. No. 1361-01. Passed 8-15-01, eff. 8-24-01)


And with regards to the black people obeying the laws, here is the only thing the officers could have known when responding to a 911 report of a man brandishing what looks like a handgun, and before (and if) the boy had obeyed the orders to drop the gun, much less obeyed the law and not brought the gun illegally to a public place in the first place:

627.09 Possessing Deadly Weapons on Public Property

(C.O.C. Note: How could they know otherwise, since good boys don't bring BB guns to public places?)

(a) No person shall knowingly have in his or her possession or ready at hand any deadly weapon while on public property or in a public building.

( [B)] For the purpose of this section, public property and public buildings shall include, but not be limited to parks, playgrounds, beaches, marinas, courthouses, auditoriums, stadiums, office buildings, jails, storage areas and yards, greenhouses, plants and works and any other property, building or structure owned, leased or rented by a governmental unit, to schools, colleges, and other learning institutions, whether public, private or parochial, and to churches, synagogues and other places of worship.

© This section does not apply to officers, agents or employees of this or any other state or the United States, to law enforcement officers authorized to carry or possess deadly weapons or to persons with private or special police commissions, and acting within the scope of their duties, or if the deadly weapon was part of a public weapons display, show or exhibition or was in the possession of a person participating in an organized match, competition or practice session on public property, or in a public building.

(d) Notwithstanding the provisions of Sections 601.13 and 601.99(a), whoever violates this section is guilty of possessing deadly weapons on public property, and shall be fined not less than three hundred dollars ($300.00), nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000.00), and imprisoned for not less than three (3) days, nor more than six (6) months. No part of this sentence shall, in any case whatsoever, be suspended or otherwise reduced.

(Ord. No. 483-75. Passed 6-9-75, eff. 6-9-75)


And moreover, understanding that the boy was breaking the law by bringing a BB gun to a public place, he was also engaging in illegally deceiving the officers by brandishing it at them (which is the only reason the officers shot him:

625.01 Definitions

As used in this chapter:

(a) “Deception” means knowingly deceiving another or causing another to be deceived, by any false or misleading representation, by withholding information, by preventing another from acquiring information, or by any other conduct, act or omission which creates, confirms or perpetuates a false impression in another, including a false impression as to law, value, state of mind, or other objective or subjective fact.



And in summary, this law banning BB guns was made because 20 years ago, another black boy thought he could get away with the same attitude and behavior... so they made a law against BB guns being taken into public places, or doesn't that idiot politician remember 20 years ago?

When people begin to change their attitude and behavior and become interested in obeying the law, then I think that they will find they have more time to live a good life, and not have to worry about being shot by police officers who are enforcing the law, and who expect citizens to cooperate with them when they are doing their job.

What is their job? To protect and serve law abiding citizens... not those in the act of being law breakers. This boy was already in violation of two laws when those officers showed up. The third one (disobeying an officer of the law when ordered to stop breaking the law) got him killed.

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

.

What happens if a child has a real gun, that's been painted pink?

Non-lethal force used when a child of 12 is involved? They are stopped from being a danger and suffer the consequences of pointing a weapon at a police officer. Or is the purpose to kill?

FYI, there are armed 12 year olds who carry out shootings successfully. No doubt the police are conscious of exactly this type situation.

Becoming increasingly happy to be living in Thailand and not in a country where 12 year olds are shooting and police are shooting 12 year olds. WSJ article, just a question for us to consider, one incident and it determines any 12 year old (or any age for that matter)!with a toy gun is justifiably killed...not only by police but, if I am armed (hold a CDWL) and feel threatened? Is it really getting that bad in the U.S.?

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Yea, there are a lot of tough nuts to crack. Still doing nothing can lead to more deaths like this. What to do to protect the police officer when faced with a perceived threat to their or another's life? Agree that teaching children right from wrong is a difficult task...that's if they even listen and heed. I would think mandating toy guns be made of bright colored plastic would not hurt. If one child's life is spared then it's a win. As pointed out, real guns could be made or coated with bright color. Criminals are always coming up with new ideas but the case here addresses children's toys. If an adult points a brightly colored gun...well, police take the age and intent into consideration in the split second decision. Bright colored weapon in hand of child - use non legal shot or means. Bright colored weapon in hand of an adult - if judged to be reasonable doubt, I certainly would not find the officer was not justified in stopping the threat by letal force.

.

What happens if a child has a real gun, that's been painted pink?

Non-lethal force used when a child of 12 is involved? They are stopped from being a danger and suffer the consequences of pointing a weapon at a police officer. Or is the purpose to kill?

FYI, there are armed 12 year olds who carry out shootings successfully. No doubt the police are conscious of exactly this type situation. http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303448104579149674154922120

If it had been a real gun like the 12 year old boy who shot those other kids, and ending up shooting a lot of other kids, who would they blame then, all 12 year old kids understand put your hands up, it was just a tragic out come, remember somebody must have believed it to be real to have made that initial 911 call, or why would they ring 911 if it was just a toy,

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A local politician says she intends to introduce legislation forcing fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly colored.

Yep, make more laws.

In the meantime, maybe not allowing your twelve year old to run around publicly with such a toy, would also make him less likely not to be shot.

Yes, also if they brightly color the replica pistols the kids would just spray-paint them black anyway, it wouldn't change a thing.

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A local politician says she intends to introduce legislation forcing fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly colored.

Yep, make more laws.

In the meantime, maybe not allowing your twelve year old to run around publicly with such a toy, would also make him less likely not to be shot.

Yes, also if they brightly color the replica pistols the kids would just spray-paint them black anyway, it wouldn't change a thing.

Correct, I guess everyone missed this sentence in the story:

Police said the orange safety indicator on the replica gun Tamir Rice was carrying, which resembled a semi-automatic pistol, had been removed.
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