Koh Tao: Thai court charges pair over murders of British backpackers

[aussiebrian]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

Just one more in a long line.

According to http://www.thailandtoday.in.th/

"Modern Thailand is building a democracy that is based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, and one that would lead to sustainable development."

Looks like due to all the f---ups all along with the investigation, the court will have no alternative, based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, to throw the case out or find them innocent.

TIT... You really believe the Thai authorities are based upon good governance...... rule of law (in whose back garden), human rights, transparency (in whose back garden) etc., to really care about Western attitudes towards this case.

The case will not be thrown out now, nor will the innocents be proven guilty......... money has proven them gulity, and that is the be all and end all of this disgusting case.

Your batteries must be running low in your sarcasm detector..

[phuketandsee]

Piece from Time magazine:

http://time.com/3617617/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-indictment/

Not entirely accurate since it says the accused "appeared in court" today when they didn't.

But check out this especially horrifying paragraph:

"Under Thai law, the 900-page police report, upon which the prosecutors will base their case, will not be disclosed to the defense team until the trial commences. Instead, the defense lawyers will be given a summary containing a list of names and addresses of witnesses as well as a cursory inventory of evidence".

(edit) Maybe this why trials sometimes take a long time here if the defense is granted time to review the "evidence". Let's hope so but I'm sure most of us here are not optimistic - to put it mildly.

It also says the British police were only on KT for 2 hours but maybe this is not accurate either.

Edited December 4, 2014 by phuketandsee

[falangjim]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/540380383066333185

So the caption should read:

"No we were over there"

"No you weren't you two were over there?" That's what we forced you to say in the confessions"

This is my 'favourite' photo, if I can call it such a thing. I love the frustrated look on the cop in the center's face. What a complete farce. And all those 'hard' faces they made for the camera as they stood behind their scapegoats. Burn in hell.

[catweazle]

Not one person on this forum has brought forth any evidence whatsoever that indicates an impropriety has taken place in the police investigation. The Thai government has gone out of its way to open the investigation to foreign agencies and not one of those agencies found any facts to support the claim that the confessions were gotten by any means unacceptable in any country in the world, including the UK, USA, and AUS. Police regularly threaten and lie to suspects. One of the most common events in a police investigation occurs when a suspect confesses then, after the first visit by his lawyer, recants. That is why in most countries, the confession without supporting evidence, is not sufficient to convict.

I am fully convinced that the police have not made scapegoats of the men on trial. Had they done so they would have limited the number of suspects to one. Any police organization knows that the difficulty of getting a conviction in a murder case increases with the square of the number of suspects. Not knowing all the evidence, I cannot say if they are innocent or guilty. But the forensic evidence, coupled with the witness statements and the circumstantial evidence certainly makes them indictable. If they are innocent, I hope they are freed. If they are guilty, I hope they are punished.

My personal experience with Thai courts has taught me that, if you are not there for political reasons, you will most likely get a fair trial whether you are Thai or foreign.

...and you have arrived from where? La-La-Land, Lego Land, Banana Space, Oz, or another galaxy perhaps?

Edited December 4, 2014 by catweazle

[Anthony5]

Nobody here seems to even consider a possibility that these two may actually be guilty....

Why should they?? The main suspects left the island during the same night, or early morning, and the two Burmese went back to work as ever, as far as I know, for a minimum of two days before they were arrested. The only thing they are guilty of, is the fact, that they may have been asked and forced to carry the dead bodies to their "final" location on the beach. Just tell me, if you would kill somebody, would you stand beside and wait for the BIB to arrest you?

No, I would flee and attract the attention to me. Right?

Hey wait, wasn't one of them arrested while he was fleeing?

"...wasn't one of them arrested while he was fleeing?

No.

And in fact, the third guy was never arrested.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/03/burmese-men-arrested-murder-british-backpackers-thailand

This is what I found on the web.

The bangkok post meanwhile, says a Burmese man with the surname Soe admitted today under police interrogation that he had been the person of interest caught on camera on the night of the murders.

He denied, however, that he had killed Miller and Witheridge, who had been visiting from Norfolk in England.

The newspaper reports that Soe was arrested after stepping off a ferry on the mainland at 6am local time this morning.

And this

Police sources the statement was consistent with evidence they had already gathered. They moved in as Win had tried to leave Koh Tao last night by the 9 pm ferry after they issued a statement saying they were hot on the trail, the Matichon newspaper reported. He was picked up on arrival at the pier in Surat Thani and taken back. Win is believed to have worked at the 'Safety Stop' restaurant and bar in Koh Tao, and the other two at the AC bat.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Anthony5

[bander]

"The suspects, both migrant workers, could be executed if found guilty."

Or they could get life sentence with a possible early release on the kings birthday next year, RTP save face, the world still believe Thais never do crimes like this, the two scrapgoats can go back to Burma, case closed.

[SLESQ]

FACTS were asked for. Here are a few.

1/ Many on this forum are from the UK.

2/ Many holiday friends of Hanna and David are Brits too; they know the truth but are scared to return to this LOS, land of sin.

3/ Many locals know the truth but they are even more scared to come forward and suffer at the crime bosses whims and fancies.

4/ David was 190 cm (6ft 3 inches) tall;

5/ Zaw Win is hobbit sized at 144.8 cm (4ft 9 inches)

6/ Win Phyo is 152 cm or barely 5 ft short.

7/ Andy Hall who is on the defense team and sees them often, reports they are both typical, lyrical, sweet, and simple friendly lads who after the killings did not run from any fear or stay out of cold heartedness. They were innocent and still are.

8/ We who know the law can see they are innocent and are being railroaded to an early death to force the Boss-needed cover-up. Period. Unless....

9/ Long term residents of the Island "know" a fix is in but there is now so much light falling on the crime bosses they are panicking and trying to rush things even more

10/ Thai and international help is with the lads, but they need more help from each of us... you and me.

NOW is the time for each of you, Brits and others, to act, please!

Write on blogs, social media, to print media, make phone calls (free on Skype) home and approach the Brits who know and ran off. Follow Andy Hall and republish his posts.

At this point their grief is still great, but the parents of Hanna and David have a right, an obligation, to come forward, to come here to give testimony in support of the lads who innocence is well known but can't be proved UNLESS the Brit witnesses who palled around with Hanna and David come forward to tell what they know.

The prosecution wants the parents here to attack the lads; surprise the crooked cops and help the kids get free.

Please delay no longer. Contribute to the kids defense fund. I can't post it here but it's easy to find with a Google search.

Sign the petition to NSY to come forward early with their report; most likely it will blow a hole in the prosecution for having excluded them from seeing or doing anything substantive.

The time to act is now; don't delay, please.

[thailandchilli]

My feeling on this is that the trial will last well past the inquest date on the 6th Jan and that may be a reason the UK police have not released their findings knowing this. However if they don't have some sort of inside knowledge about this then they have to say something now, even if its not the full report. After all the legal aspects of revealing information before the inquest does not count in Thailand.

Come on boys lets have some word from you, anything other than waiting and fueling speculation!

Edited December 4, 2014 by thailandchilli

[mcm991]

Not one person on this forum has brought forth any evidence whatsoever that indicates an impropriety has taken place in the police investigation. The Thai government has gone out of its way to open the investigation to foreign agencies and not one of those agencies found any facts to support the claim that the confessions were gotten by any means unacceptable in any country in the world, including the UK, USA, and AUS. Police regularly threaten and lie to suspects. One of the most common events in a police investigation occurs when a suspect confesses then, after the first visit by his lawyer, recants. That is why in most countries, the confession without supporting evidence, is not sufficient to convict.

I am fully convinced that the police have not made scapegoats of the men on trial. Had they done so they would have limited the number of suspects to one. Any police organization knows that the difficulty of getting a conviction in a murder case increases with the square of the number of suspects. Not knowing all the evidence, I cannot say if they are innocent or guilty. But the forensic evidence, coupled with the witness statements and the circumstantial evidence certainly makes them indictable. If they are innocent, I hope they are freed. If they are guilty, I hope they are punished.

My personal experience with Thai courts has taught me that, if you are not there for political reasons, you will most likely get a fair trial whether you are Thai or foreign.

Good one ...... you almost had me for a second.

[klaus303]

Move along please, no justice to be seen here, move along...

I lived in Thailand for fourteen years, I have a Thai wife, my brother-in-law is a policeman and my sister-in-law manages a local government office. Therefore I have witnessed the fruits of the corruption from close quarters. The amount of "tea money" they have ferreted away is staggering.

We have a son who was born in Chiang Mai and for that reason four years ago we moved to the UK so that he could get a proper education. There is no way I would move back to Thailand because I have become so disillusioned and sickened by the greed and total disregard for the care or rights of others.

I am very aware that some of the members here have a different view and their experience of living in Thailand is all positive. I respect that point of view completely and I know that there are many good people out there. However for me it has sunk into the mire and the stink is overwhelming.

@dunroaming,

Could have been me who wrote the above - almost to the word,

Thanks for saving me the time to do that.

[arrowsdawdle]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

Indeed a valid question, which someone with knowledge about Thai law can answer.

Another unanswered question is why there was a need to bring it 3 hours forward.

So a judge could make his tee time?

[phuketandsee]

Not one person on this forum has brought forth any evidence whatsoever that indicates an impropriety has taken place in the police investigation. The Thai government has gone out of its way to open the investigation to foreign agencies and not one of those agencies found any facts to support the claim that the confessions were gotten by any means unacceptable in any country in the world, including the UK, USA, and AUS. Police regularly threaten and lie to suspects. One of the most common events in a police investigation occurs when a suspect confesses then, after the first visit by his lawyer, recants. That is why in most countries, the confession without supporting evidence, is not sufficient to convict.

I am fully convinced that the police have not made scapegoats of the men on trial. Had they done so they would have limited the number of suspects to one. Any police organization knows that the difficulty of getting a conviction in a murder case increases with the square of the number of suspects. Not knowing all the evidence, I cannot say if they are innocent or guilty. But the forensic evidence, coupled with the witness statements and the circumstantial evidence certainly makes them indictable. If they are innocent, I hope they are freed. If they are guilty, I hope they are punished.

My personal experience with Thai courts has taught me that, if you are not there for political reasons, you will most likely get a fair trial whether you are Thai or foreign.

Another one of jdinasia/johnthailandjohn's accounts?

Edited December 4, 2014 by phuketandsee

[StealthEnergiser]

A poster mentioned this place websleuths dot com to get more attention may be worth a look

FACTS were asked for. Here are a few.

1/ Many on this forum are from the UK.

2/ Many holiday friends of Hanna and David are Brits too; they know the truth but are scared to return to this LOS, land of sin.

3/ Many locals know the truth but they are even more scared to come forward and suffer at the crime bosses whims and fancies.

4/ David was 190 cm (6ft 3 inches) tall;

5/ Zaw Win is hobbit sized at 144.8 cm (4ft 9 inches)

6/ Win Phyo is 152 cm or barely 5 ft short.

7/ Andy Hall who is on the defense team and sees them often, reports they are both typical, lyrical, sweet, and simple friendly lads who after the killings did not run from any fear or stay out of cold heartedness. They were innocent and still are.

8/ We who know the law can see they are innocent and are being railroaded to an early death to force the Boss-needed cover-up. Period. Unless....

9/ Long term residents of the Island "know" a fix is in but there is now so much light falling on the crime bosses they are panicking and trying to rush things even more

10/ Thai and international help is with the lads, but they need more help from each of us... you and me.

NOW is the time for each of you, Brits and others, to act, please!

Write on blogs, social media, to print media, make phone calls (free on Skype) home and approach the Brits who know and ran off. Follow Andy Hall and republish his posts.

At this point their grief is still great, but the parents of Hanna and David have a right, an obligation, to come forward, to come here to give testimony in support of the lads who innocence is well known but can't be proved UNLESS the Brit witnesses who palled around with Hanna and David come forward to tell what they know.

The prosecution wants the parents here to attack the lads; surprise the crooked cops and help the kids get free.

Please delay no longer. Contribute to the kids defense fund. I can't post it here but it's easy to find with a Google search.

Sign the petition to NSY to come forward early with their report; most likely it will blow a hole in the prosecution for having excluded them from seeing or doing anything substantive.

The time to act is now; don't delay, please.

A poster mentioned this place websleuths dot com to get more attention may be worth a look

Edited December 4, 2014 by metisdead

[bander]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Not one person on this forum has brought forth any evidence whatsoever that indicates an impropriety has taken place in the police investigation. The Thai government has gone out of its way to open the investigation to foreign agencies and not one of those agencies found any facts to support the claim that the confessions were gotten by any means unacceptable in any country in the world, including the UK, USA, and AUS. Police regularly threaten and lie to suspects. One of the most common events in a police investigation occurs when a suspect confesses then, after the first visit by his lawyer, recants. That is why in most countries, the confession without supporting evidence, is not sufficient to convict.

I am fully convinced that the police have not made scapegoats of the men on trial. Had they done so they would have limited the number of suspects to one. Any police organization knows that the difficulty of getting a conviction in a murder case increases with the square of the number of suspects. Not knowing all the evidence, I cannot say if they are innocent or guilty. But the forensic evidence, coupled with the witness statements and the circumstantial evidence certainly makes them indictable. If they are innocent, I hope they are freed. If they are guilty, I hope they are punished.

My personal experience with Thai courts has taught me that, if you are not there for political reasons, you will most likely get a fair trial whether you are Thai or foreign.

Easy to see that you missed a lot of info from the first day of the murders when the crime scene was full of police and civilians walking around moving and destroying evidence. Even a suspect Thai was on the crime scene, can you explain that? BTW did you forget to take your medication today?

[StealthEnergiser]

According to Felicity Gerry QC, a prominent British defense lawyer specializing in high-profile sexual-assault cases, “Not to have any access until the day of trial can’t possibly be fair.”

In many other jurisdictions, including the U.S. and U.K., as soon as charges are brought the defense has access to all evidence, including witness statements, physical exhibits and expert testimony. This allows lawyers to take instructions from their clients and call their own experts to refute any testimony relied upon by the prosecution.

“Sometimes the analysis takes time,” says Gerry, citing the checking of telephone records or the disputing of forensic conclusions. “My concern would be it’s all far too rushed and unfair to the defense.

http://time.com/3617617/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-indictment/

[thailandchilli]

FACTS were asked for. Here are a few.

1/ Many on this forum are from the UK.

2/ Many holiday friends of Hanna and David are Brits too; they know the truth but are scared to return to this LOS, land of sin.

3/ Many locals know the truth but they are even more scared to come forward and suffer at the crime bosses whims and fancies.

4/ David was 190 cm (6ft 3 inches) tall;

5/ Zaw Win is hobbit sized at 144.8 cm (4ft 9 inches)

6/ Win Phyo is 152 cm or barely 5 ft short.

7/ Andy Hall who is on the defense team and sees them often, reports they are both typical, lyrical, sweet, and simple friendly lads who after the killings did not run from any fear or stay out of cold heartedness. They were innocent and still are.

8/ We who know the law can see they are innocent and are being railroaded to an early death to force the Boss-needed cover-up. Period. Unless....

9/ Long term residents of the Island "know" a fix is in but there is now so much light falling on the crime bosses they are panicking and trying to rush things even more

10/ Thai and international help is with the lads, but they need more help from each of us... you and me.

NOW is the time for each of you, Brits and others, to act, please!

Write on blogs, social media, to print media, make phone calls (free on Skype) home and approach the Brits who know and ran off. Follow Andy Hall and republish his posts.

At this point their grief is still great, but the parents of Hanna and David have a right, an obligation, to come forward, to come here to give testimony in support of the lads who innocence is well known but can't be proved UNLESS the Brit witnesses who palled around with Hanna and David come forward to tell what they know.

The prosecution wants the parents here to attack the lads; surprise the crooked cops and help the kids get free.

Please delay no longer. Contribute to the kids defense fund. I can't post it here but it's easy to find with a Google search.

Sign the petition to NSY to come forward early with their report; most likely it will blow a hole in the prosecution for having excluded them from seeing or doing anything substantive.

The time to act is now; don't delay, please.

This is a scam right ?

btw It doesn't matter if I'm 4ft 1 and you're 6ft 11 - if I've got a shovel, you're going down

2nd btw - many killers have been soft spoken

You weren't there, you haven't got a clue what happened

Scam? why would you say a call for a defense fund is a scam? Worry you does it? By the way the link for the fund can also be found on Andy Halls twitter page

Edited December 4, 2014 by metisdead

[DaveE13]

none of us were there mate. Some people have agendas on here. they should just say that they work as divemasters or have mates that do.

[arrowsdawdle]

ai

FACTS were asked for. Here are a few.

1/ Many on this forum are from the UK.

2/ Many holiday friends of Hanna and David are Brits too; they know the truth but are scared to return to this LOS, land of sin.

3/ Many locals know the truth but they are even more scared to come forward and suffer at the crime bosses whims and fancies.

4/ David was 190 cm (6ft 3 inches) tall;

5/ Zaw Win is hobbit sized at 144.8 cm (4ft 9 inches)

6/ Win Phyo is 152 cm or barely 5 ft short.

7/ Andy Hall who is on the defense team and sees them often, reports they are both typical, lyrical, sweet, and simple friendly lads who after the killings did not run from any fear or stay out of cold heartedness. They were innocent and still are.

8/ We who know the law can see they are innocent and are being railroaded to an early death to force the Boss-needed cover-up. Period. Unless....

9/ Long term residents of the Island "know" a fix is in but there is now so much light falling on the crime bosses they are panicking and trying to rush things even more

10/ Thai and international help is with the lads, but they need more help from each of us... you and me.

NOW is the time for each of you, Brits and others, to act, please!

Write on blogs, social media, to print media, make phone calls (free on Skype) home and approach the Brits who know and ran off. Follow Andy Hall and republish his posts.

At this point their grief is still great, but the parents of Hanna and David have a right, an obligation, to come forward, to come here to give testimony in support of the lads who innocence is well known but can't be proved UNLESS the Brit witnesses who palled around with Hanna and David come forward to tell what they know.

The prosecution wants the parents here to attack the lads; surprise the crooked cops and help the kids get free.

Please delay no longer. Contribute to the kids defense fund. I can't post it here but it's easy to find with a Google search.

Sign the petition to NSY to come forward early with their report; most likely it will blow a hole in the prosecution for having excluded them from seeing or doing anything substantive.

The time to act is now; don't delay, please.

Anybody set up a whistleblower website in Thai and English where citizens that know something could post tips and leads anonymously?

[lifeincnx]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges."

Pass it on.

[Alwyn]

now all the sh*t begins anew, will the truth emerge or will we see the thai courts/police cover it all up to save face, only time will tell........

Rhetorical question methinks

[sambum]

What happened with the UK Police that were allowed to come here? did anything happen there? what was their findings?

It has been on this forum numerous times that "The UK police are not scheduled to complete their report until January, when they will first show their findings to the victims' parents." However, apparently an "abbreviated" version was received by the BIB in Bangkok a few days ago in the light of the prosecutor deciding to go ahead with the case today, having given "the perfect case" back to the BIB 3 times (that we know of) to review the evidence and information contained therein.

[AlanPurdy]

If these two are found guilty, and executed..And then the truth about the so called 12 million bt payed by the Island mafia to get away with this is authenticated.. Thailand will be doomed...And the world is watching...For the sake of the future of Thailand GET THIS RIGHT...

[thailandchilli]

Not one person on this forum has brought forth any evidence whatsoever that indicates an impropriety has taken place in the police investigation. The Thai government has gone out of its way to open the investigation to foreign agencies and not one of those agencies found any facts to support the claim that the confessions were gotten by any means unacceptable in any country in the world, including the UK, USA, and AUS. Police regularly threaten and lie to suspects. One of the most common events in a police investigation occurs when a suspect confesses then, after the first visit by his lawyer, recants. That is why in most countries, the confession without supporting evidence, is not sufficient to convict.

I am fully convinced that the police have not made scapegoats of the men on trial. Had they done so they would have limited the number of suspects to one. Any police organization knows that the difficulty of getting a conviction in a murder case increases with the square of the number of suspects. Not knowing all the evidence, I cannot say if they are innocent or guilty. But the forensic evidence, coupled with the witness statements and the circumstantial evidence certainly makes them indictable. If they are innocent, I hope they are freed. If they are guilty, I hope they are punished.

My personal experience with Thai courts has taught me that, if you are not there for political reasons, you will most likely get a fair trial whether you are Thai or foreign.

Hmmm you do realise the worlds worst conspiracists congregate on here in alarming numbers right ?

This lot don't need evidence when they have a keyboard and s0d all else to hang people with !

Evidence, that disappeared a long time ago!

"Thais may have been involved in the murders and had tried to destroy evidence linking them to the attacks. Some people on Koh Tao had given false information to police in a bid to divert attention."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Koh-Tao-police-fail-another-day-30243890.html

[Andre0720]

The Justice system..

Meaning a system of justice...

Seems like the system is doing something else....

[arrowsdawdle]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

No error......this is Thailand.

Orders came from above to speed it up.

As said before the outcome has been decided already.

Technical trial error would be the last of their worries.

What the media will say outside Thailand should worry them a bit.

A technical trial error, if this indeed is one, would mean no legal verdict can be reached and the whole trial will be canceled.

"You're not in Kansas now, Toto."

[DaveE13]

what worried me from day one was the way the crime scene was secured and everyone and there mum wandering around

[arrowsdawdle]

These morons who have already decided the outcome of these poor boys actually think that by speeding everything up and pushing everything through to send them away for good...or execute them...that the public will believe it all and that everything will go away in time....Wrong!...It's only going to make matters worse and the sh*t that comes falling back on these idiots will be ten fold....don't they get it?

Ah yes, another case of perfect world syndrome.

[arrowsdawdle]

what worried me from day one was the way the crime scene was secured and everyone and there mum wandering around

Secured? Now there's a stretch.

[Tonawatchee]

May the judges be judged in time to come (aka facing the Big Cheese upstairs).

May the sewers of Rangoon back up into their breakfast.

[jdinasia]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

Indeed a valid question, which someone with knowledge about Thai law can answer.

Another unanswered question is why there was a need to bring it 3 hours forward.

They have been charged. They will answer the charges / plead not -guilty on Monday.