Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[JLCrab]

So what I get from the Post #1090 was that -- if he were in charge -- things would have been done differently. Whether people who are innocent have been set-up remains to be seen. In some countries even if persons are in fact guilty they have been pronounced 'not guilty' because of a bungled investigation. Maybe that will be the net result in Thailand but that will be the decision of a judge or judge panel which is different than convincing a jury that the evidence and witnesses presented by the prosecution are not credible.

[Katoom]

So what I get from the Post #1090 was that -- if he were in charge -- things would have been done differently. Whether people who are innocent have been set-up remains to be seen. In some countries even if persons are in fact guilty they have been pronounced 'not guilty' because of a bungled investigation. Maybe that will be the net result in Thailand but that will be the decision of a judge or judge panel which is different than convincing a jury that the evidence and witnesses presented by the prosecution are not credible.

You rather skim the surface here and leave out much that is relevant to the post and to the probable courses that any Judge or Judges Panel could choose to take.

I wonder why?

[JLCrab]

So what I get from the Post #1090 was that -- if he were in charge -- things would have been done differently. Whether people who are innocent have been set-up remains to be seen. In some countries even if persons are in fact guilty they have been pronounced 'not guilty' because of a bungled investigation. Maybe that will be the net result in Thailand but that will be the decision of a judge or judge panel which is different than convincing a jury that the evidence and witnesses presented by the prosecution are not credible.

You rather skim the surface here and leave out much that is relevant to the post and to the probable courses that any Judge or Judges Panel could choose to take.

I wonder why?

Short attention span.

[jimmybkk]

Yes, I dispute that, what evidence you have that the victim's pants were placed in his own luggage to frame someone?

First they were found in his room, they were assumed to be Ware's and stained with Blood, this was proven to be incorrect, their "use" as evidence connected with the crime expended by then. After that then they were put in Miller's luggage, you suggest that this was a nefarious action in order to frame someone, you don't say who or how and provide no evidence to support the assertion.

Got facts? Show them, if not you only have speculation and I refer you to the OP of this thread and the requests of the families of the victims.

Oh dear - you are clutching at straws son, and the straws are not supporting your weight.

You started referring to "planted" pants before I did. You were the one questioning how the "planted" pants could be used to frame anyone. I did not disagree. I simply pointed out that framing someone is not always the purpose of planting something, assuming that something has been planted in the first place.

I suggest you look up who started referring to "planted pants" to get your bearings, unless of course, your erratic arguments are a deliberate wind up.

No son. Suggest you get your bearings. As I stated - you started referring to planted pants before I did. The fact that someone referred to them before you does not make my statement incorrect, erratic, nor a wind up.

[boomerangutang]

ok, I'll take the bait. I should quit writing for awhile, as I've already posted so often on this topic. Re; Nomsod and his buddies who I think were likely at the scene and perpetrators of the crime. You've seen what I think, and I've been quite specific. It's your choice whether you want to go with it or not. You've chosen not to. Ok, so be it.

Let's see what the trial reveals. It's the arm-in-arm force of the military government + RTP + millionaire headman + his cop friends and family, all standing in a monolith ......against two small Burmese guys who, thankfully, have some legal counsel, .....which they didn't have when compelled to sign confessions which they couldn't read.

The prosecution has been amassing 'evidence' (is it contrived? It's mainly up to the judge to decide). Is the judge objective and fair-minded and not beholden to the combined force of the military, politicians & police? Doubtful, but again, it's each individual observers' choice to decide for him or herself. That evidence is kept secret from the defense, until it's sprung upon them. More deception, built in to the justice system.

"I think" it's not evidence, you said there is evidence of Nomsod being being linked to the crime, show the evidence.

Two innocent lives are at stake and a murderer on the loose (according to you), yet you don't produce the evidence that would set things right? What kind of person are you?

When you're completely bereft of intelligent items to add to the discussion, you try picking on grammar. The phrase, "I think" is commonly used within the English language, when discussing ideas. You keep asking the same question, and you get varied/multiple answers. You obviously don't like the answers, and it's just as obvious why: You're shielding the headman's people, as are a couple of other posters on this blog. You don't agree with my reasons why Nomsod and Mon should still be prime suspects. Ok, we get it. To repeatedly ask the same question, is bordering on harassment.

You keep asking about evidence. Evidence doesn't have to be 100% ironclad to be presented within the course of a discussion. That's why I gentlemanly may preface a statement with, "think...." instead of stating something as ironclad fact. The only people who know for sure what happened that night are the perpetrators and perhaps whomever they spoke to about it. The truth was the 3rd victim that night, and every day since.

"There is a lot of evidence that there are others involved in the crime."

Do you recognize that?

No "I think there is a lot"... "There is.."

I asked you, repeatedly, to show me that evidence, not speculation, not "some people believe", absence of evidence presented as evidence, actual evidence. You failed, repeatedly.

"To repeatedly ask the same question, is bordering on harassment."

To repeatedly accuse someone of murder with no evidence to back it up is something a bit worse than harassment, so don't pontificate.

In any case, you want to shut me up, show the evidence you say you think there is.

"You're shielding the headman's people, as are a couple of other posters on this blog."

You think I'm shielding the headman's people, you are wrong on this, and what happened with your gentlemanly attitude to make that accusation?

You're getting shrill and flipping more than a flag on a pole on a windy day. Evidence that you're on the losing side, bud.

[boomerangutang]

Calling the work by the RTP 'flawed' is like calling New Orleans after Katrina 'damp.'

Were that the investigation by RTP were just flawed, then there wouldn't be such an outcry by hundreds of thousands of people taking an interest in it.

It's a lot worse than flawed. It's a concerted effort by Thai officials to frame 2 young men, while concurrently shielding those who should be prime suspects.

Perhaps the B2 had some involvement (rape after H's death? though I find that highly unlikely), but no objective-minded person can see two small men over-powering 2 farang, one of whom was considerably taller/bigger than either of the scapegoats. ....and then go on to commit such a passion-fueled murder of the girl.

One of the dozens of mis-calls by RTP investigators (who, btw, aren't formally trained in crime investigation or forensics) is the scenario they paint: David and Hannah strolling off in the wee hours, commencing to have sex, Burmese becoming instantly stimulated, enraged and bloodthirsty .....is a ludicrous recreation. David and Hannah were not even romantically involved, and actually that's one reason (I believe) the scenario degenerated at the crime scene. Some of the AC bar guys were-keying in on Hannah, probably for over an hour prior to the crime (that's one of many reasons why we hear nothing from RTP about scenario at bar that night). They would have found out early on that Hannah and David weren't linked romantically, so that would give the perps added hopes for getting sex with her. There's more that could be said, but for two reasons, I'll leave it at that: A. I've described in earlier posts what (to me) is a plausible scenario, and B. respect for the victims' families.

[AleG]

You're getting shrill and flipping more than a flag on a pole on a windy day. Evidence that you're on the losing side, bud.

You see, that is your problem right there, your opinion is not evidence.

[boomerangutang]

Hahaha...I thought this post should have allowed down a long time ago. But the rtp advocate still are at it.

Please consider this. If the RTP has a perfect case, then there is nothing to debate about. Since its already perfect.

So let it go. You are making the rtp case look weaker with every post. I think the rtp defenders know that the case has some weak points and flawed and want to make them self believe that it is not by repeating the same mantra.

These supporters would like to make RTP the first police force in the world to have the first flawless case.

Perhaps you should look at the OP.

Then find anyone saying the investigation wasn't flawed.

I am unaware of any post other than one quoting a news article which states that the investigation was not flawed.

But please, feel free to ignore the statements from the families....

Wrong again. The self-appointed Thai PM declared publicly, early on, that it was a 'flawless investigation' (or did he say 'perfect investigation?') I haven't seen any statements by the families or by Brit experts mentioning whether the investigation was flawed. It appears the victims' families are largely relying on what Brit experts told them, and the Brit experts were relying solely on what RTP told them. Correct me if I'm wrong. Let's not forget, the Brits have been expressly forbidden from doing any investigative work in Thailand. "Observers only" ...lest anyone forget.

If RTP are orchestrating a cover-up/frame-up, then everything they pass on to the Brits will back that plan. In turn, the info which gets to the families is much the same. Oh, speaking of passing things on to the Brits: Thai officials have already admitted they're not sending some DNA typing to the Brits. So, without DNA profiles from suspects, it's doubtful Brit experts can make a reliable overall assessment.

[boomerangutang]

You're getting shrill and flipping more than a flag on a pole on a windy day. Evidence that you're on the losing side, bud.

You see, that is your problem right there, your opinion is not evidence.

You talking in circles (while adding nothing worthwhile to the topic) is evidence ....of you being spooked - that the person you're trying to protect/shield - should still be a prime suspect.

[jdinasia]

Hahaha...I thought this post should have allowed down a long time ago. But the rtp advocate still are at it.

Please consider this. If the RTP has a perfect case, then there is nothing to debate about. Since its already perfect.

So let it go. You are making the rtp case look weaker with every post. I think the rtp defenders know that the case has some weak points and flawed and want to make them self believe that it is not by repeating the same mantra.

These supporters would like to make RTP the first police force in the world to have the first flawless case.

Perhaps you should look at the OP.

Then find anyone saying the investigation wasn't flawed.

I am unaware of any post other than one quoting a news article which states that the investigation was not flawed.

But please, feel free to ignore the statements from the families....

Wrong again. The self-appointed Thai PM declared publicly, early on, that it was a 'flawless investigation' (or did he say 'perfect investigation?') I haven't seen any statements by the families or by Brit experts mentioning whether the investigation was flawed. It appears the victims' families are largely relying on what Brit experts told them, and the Brit experts were relying solely on what RTP told them. Correct me if I'm wrong. Let's not forget, the Brits have been expressly forbidden from doing any investigative work in Thailand. "Observers only" ...lest anyone forget.

If RTP are orchestrating a cover-up/frame-up, then everything they pass on to the Brits will back that plan. In turn, the info which gets to the families is much the same. Oh, speaking of passing things on to the Brits: Thai officials have already admitted they're not sending some DNA typing to the Brits. So, without DNA profiles from suspects, it's doubtful Brit experts can make a reliable overall assessment.

There are no suspects, only defendants now.

[boomerangutang]

There are no suspects, only defendants now.

That's how you want it. Happier now?

[lildragon]

Calling the work by the RTP 'flawed' is like calling New Orleans after Katrina 'damp.'

Were that the investigation by RTP were just flawed, then there wouldn't be such an outcry by hundreds of thousands of people taking an interest in it.

It's a lot worse than flawed. It's a concerted effort by Thai officials to frame 2 young men, while concurrently shielding those who should be prime suspects.

Perhaps the B2 had some involvement (rape after H's death? though I find that highly unlikely), but no objective-minded person can see two small men over-powering 2 farang, one of whom was considerably taller/bigger than either of the scapegoats. ....and then go on to commit such a passion-fueled murder of the girl.

One of the dozens of mis-calls by RTP investigators (who, btw, aren't formally trained in crime investigation or forensics) is the scenario they paint: David and Hannah strolling off in the wee hours, commencing to have sex, Burmese becoming instantly stimulated, enraged and bloodthirsty .....is a ludicrous recreation. David and Hannah were not even romantically involved, and actually that's one reason (I believe) the scenario degenerated at the crime scene. Some of the AC bar guys were-keying in on Hannah, probably for over an hour prior to the crime (that's one of many reasons why we hear nothing from RTP about scenario at bar that night). They would have found out early on that Hannah and David weren't linked romantically, so that would give the perps added hopes for getting sex with her. There's more that could be said, but for two reasons, I'll leave it at that: A. I've described in earlier posts what (to me) is a plausible scenario, and B. respect for the victims' families.

I think the B2 were summoned to the scene after the deed had been done to move bodies/strip clothes what not. They were then told they'd be protected.

[AleG]

You're getting shrill and flipping more than a flag on a pole on a windy day. Evidence that you're on the losing side, bud.

You see, that is your problem right there, your opinion is not evidence.

You talking in circles (while adding nothing worthwhile to the topic) is evidence ....of you being spooked - that the person you're trying to protect/shield - should still be a prime suspect.

Spooked of what boomerangutang? Of you?

You continue to show yourself full of hubris with your baseless accusations; you can posture as much as you like it won't cover for the inadequacies of your arguments or the lack of evidence to support them.

[jdinasia]

I think the B2 were summoned to the scene after the deed had been done to move bodies/strip clothes what not. They were then told they'd be protected.

You understand that what you think makes them guilty, right?

[lildragon]

I think the B2 were summoned to the scene after the deed had been done to move bodies/strip clothes what not. They were then told they'd be protected.

You understand that what you think makes them guilty, right?

Makes them guilty of being an accessory to murder yes. They are pleading not guilty to the actual rape and murders.

[fritzzz25]

Hahaha...I thought this post should have allowed down a long time ago. But the rtp advocate still are at it.

Please consider this. If the RTP has a perfect case, then there is nothing to debate about. Since its already perfect.

So let it go. You are making the rtp case look weaker with every post. I think the rtp defenders know that the case has some weak points and flawed and want to make them self believe that it is not by repeating the same mantra.

These supporters would like to make RTP the first police force in the world to have the first flawless case.

Perhaps you should look at the OP.

Then find anyone saying the investigation wasn't flawed.

I am unaware of any post other than one quoting a news article which states that the investigation was not flawed.

But please, feel free to ignore the statements from the families....

Wrong again. The self-appointed Thai PM declared publicly, early on, that it was a 'flawless investigation' (or did he say 'perfect investigation?') I haven't seen any statements by the families or by Brit experts mentioning whether the investigation was flawed. It appears the victims' families are largely relying on what Brit experts told them, and the Brit experts were relying solely on what RTP told them. Correct me if I'm wrong. Let's not forget, the Brits have been expressly forbidden from doing any investigative work in Thailand. "Observers only" ...lest anyone forget.

If RTP are orchestrating a cover-up/frame-up, then everything they pass on to the Brits will back that plan. In turn, the info which gets to the families is much the same. Oh, speaking of passing things on to the Brits: Thai officials have already admitted they're not sending some DNA typing to the Brits. So, without DNA profiles from suspects, it's doubtful Brit experts can make a reliable overall assessment.

There are no suspects, only defendants now.

There are still suspects out there, and you know that. If you had any clue how investigations work, there is a whole truck load of information that has not been looked into. One of the first things that is done, is a "cell dump". You get all of the information off the cell towers that have connections to them. You analyze what phone number was pinging off the tower, who it belongs to, what calls were made, to who they were made. Evidence gathering is not done in a fashion to prove who did something. It is also collected to prove who DIDN'T do something. We all know that technology these days tracks our every movement.

If there were confessions, where is the video evidence of the ENTIRE time these two were interrogated? Why hasn't this been shown to the media? The RTP have showed us a lot of other things, but where is this crucial evidence? Why hasn't this been plastered all over the internet? When the fellow killed the young girl on the train, we saw a clip of him being slapped by a cop (which I think is disgraceful) when being interviewed. We see youtube clips of Nigerian drug dealers in Bangkok being interviewed and those are out there. Again, why is there no video of this alleged confession?

If our fella who provided his DNA in a big public display wants to prove his whereabouts, he can provide ATM receipts, his cell phone records, his phone for forensic examination amongst many other things. It is quite apparent JD that you have no investigational experience into crimes. You just believe what the RTP has said, and take it as gospel. With the organization crumbling from the top down with the corruption claims, how can this outfit be taken seriously at all? This case in most other countries would never even make it to a point of arrest.

As I said, my training that I took 17 years ago, was a lot more thorough than what I have seen this entire team doing, and I was a snot nosed kid out of high school who knew better than to allow anyone into a crime scene who is not needed to be there. I have been at crime scenes of this nature, guarding the scene with someone 5 ranks above me with the title "Sir" in front of their name ask me to go into a scene. I have told them that if they are not an investigator who is part of the team there, that they cannot go in as there is evidence in there that is called "hold back". "Hold back" is evidence that only the killer(s) know, and the on scene investigators. This is something like what calibre of bullet was fired, or how many stab wounds are in the body. The RTP had this information out before the bodies were even cold.

I am not trying to insinuate that I am by all means the greatest detective that ever lived, nor even close to many that I have been honored to work along side. But I can say that I have watched some highly skilled police officers crack cases that had NO physical evidence nor even a body, and prove suspects beyond a reasonable doubt in court and convict them to life behind bars.

Why do I have an interest in this case? Because I own property in the country and have made many close friends in the country who have told me how corrupt the police are. I have watched them take bribes and have been demanded to provide a bribe to them when I am driving. I have pulled out my police ID and told them to their face that their demanding of bribes is a disgrace to all police officers around the world who do have integrity (there are still many who don't, do not think that I do not know that).

I know of the crack down that is occurring in Bangkok from reading this forum, and I will be arriving there in 10 days for a 2 month stay at my property. And trust me, I will be walking around and trying to get stopped for a piss test. I will be recording the interactions along with a fellow cop who is coming along. We are going out to prove that this is happening, and we will be showing the world this corruption. Do I fear reprisal? Not at all. I have had many threats against my life in this job, and have been bitten, stabbed with a needle 3 times, had HIV infected blood splattered into my eyes (the HIV cocktail is a lot worse on your guts than any explosive diarrhea you have had in your life), had a beer glass smashed into my face. I have been milliseconds from killing a kid who did a home invasion and was hiding behind a kitchen cabinet and calling him out, luckily he was smart enough to leave the gun on the floor before he crawled out face down. So anything the RTP would threaten me with or do to me is nothing that I haven't already been through.

The only motive I have in this, is to prove that this case is flawed. These two young men have been set up, and that they are going to go down for something they didn't do. I want my friends who have lived through this, to no longer have to live through this. Right now there is a scandal going through the police force that I work for, and trust me, I want it to be exposed for what it is. I chose this profession to protect people, and also to prove the innocence of people. When one collects evidence, you collect ALL evidence, whether inculpatory or exculpatory. You do not get to "pick and choose" what you present. At least not in a fair trial.....

[jdinasia]

Hahaha...I thought this post should have allowed down a long time ago. But the rtp advocate still are at it.

Please consider this. If the RTP has a perfect case, then there is nothing to debate about. Since its already perfect.

So let it go. You are making the rtp case look weaker with every post. I think the rtp defenders know that the case has some weak points and flawed and want to make them self believe that it is not by repeating the same mantra.

These supporters would like to make RTP the first police force in the world to have the first flawless case.

Perhaps you should look at the OP.

Then find anyone saying the investigation wasn't flawed.

I am unaware of any post other than one quoting a news article which states that the investigation was not flawed.

But please, feel free to ignore the statements from the families....

Wrong again. The self-appointed Thai PM declared publicly, early on, that it was a 'flawless investigation' (or did he say 'perfect investigation?') I haven't seen any statements by the families or by Brit experts mentioning whether the investigation was flawed. It appears the victims' families are largely relying on what Brit experts told them, and the Brit experts were relying solely on what RTP told them. Correct me if I'm wrong. Let's not forget, the Brits have been expressly forbidden from doing any investigative work in Thailand. "Observers only" ...lest anyone forget.

If RTP are orchestrating a cover-up/frame-up, then everything they pass on to the Brits will back that plan. In turn, the info which gets to the families is much the same. Oh, speaking of passing things on to the Brits: Thai officials have already admitted they're not sending some DNA typing to the Brits. So, without DNA profiles from suspects, it's doubtful Brit experts can make a reliable overall assessment.

There are no suspects, only defendants now.

There are still suspects out there, and you know that. If you had any clue how investigations work, there is a whole truck load of information that has not been looked into. One of the first things that is done, is a "cell dump". You get all of the information off the cell towers that have connections to them. You analyze what phone number was pinging off the tower, who it belongs to, what calls were made, to who they were made. Evidence gathering is not done in a fashion to prove who did something. It is also collected to prove who DIDN'T do something. We all know that technology these days tracks our every movement.

If there were confessions, where is the video evidence of the ENTIRE time these two were interrogated? Why hasn't this been shown to the media? The RTP have showed us a lot of other things, but where is this crucial evidence? Why hasn't this been plastered all over the internet? When the fellow killed the young girl on the train, we saw a clip of him being slapped by a cop (which I think is disgraceful) when being interviewed. We see youtube clips of Nigerian drug dealers in Bangkok being interviewed and those are out there. Again, why is there no video of this alleged confession?

If our fella who provided his DNA in a big public display wants to prove his whereabouts, he can provide ATM receipts, his cell phone records, his phone for forensic examination amongst many other things. It is quite apparent JD that you have no investigational experience into crimes. You just believe what the RTP has said, and take it as gospel. With the organization crumbling from the top down with the corruption claims, how can this outfit be taken seriously at all? This case in most other countries would never even make it to a point of arrest.

As I said, my training that I took 17 years ago, was a lot more thorough than what I have seen this entire team doing, and I was a snot nosed kid out of high school who knew better than to allow anyone into a crime scene who is not needed to be there. I have been at crime scenes of this nature, guarding the scene with someone 5 ranks above me with the title "Sir" in front of their name ask me to go into a scene. I have told them that if they are not an investigator who is part of the team there, that they cannot go in as there is evidence in there that is called "hold back". "Hold back" is evidence that only the killer(s) know, and the on scene investigators. This is something like what calibre of bullet was fired, or how many stab wounds are in the body. The RTP had this information out before the bodies were even cold.

I am not trying to insinuate that I am by all means the greatest detective that ever lived, nor even close to many that I have been honored to work along side. But I can say that I have watched some highly skilled police officers crack cases that had NO physical evidence nor even a body, and prove suspects beyond a reasonable doubt in court and convict them to life behind bars.

Why do I have an interest in this case? Because I own property in the country and have made many close friends in the country who have told me how corrupt the police are. I have watched them take bribes and have been demanded to provide a bribe to them when I am driving. I have pulled out my police ID and told them to their face that their demanding of bribes is a disgrace to all police officers around the world who do have integrity (there are still many who don't, do not think that I do not know that).

I know of the crack down that is occurring in Bangkok from reading this forum, and I will be arriving there in 10 days for a 2 month stay at my property. And trust me, I will be walking around and trying to get stopped for a piss test. I will be recording the interactions along with a fellow cop who is coming along. We are going out to prove that this is happening, and we will be showing the world this corruption. Do I fear reprisal? Not at all. I have had many threats against my life in this job, and have been bitten, stabbed with a needle 3 times, had HIV infected blood splattered into my eyes (the HIV cocktail is a lot worse on your guts than any explosive diarrhea you have had in your life), had a beer glass smashed into my face. I have been milliseconds from killing a kid who did a home invasion and was hiding behind a kitchen cabinet and calling him out, luckily he was smart enough to leave the gun on the floor before he crawled out face down. So anything the RTP would threaten me with or do to me is nothing that I haven't already been through.

The only motive I have in this, is to prove that this case is flawed. These two young men have been set up, and that they are going to go down for something they didn't do. I want my friends who have lived through this, to no longer have to live through this. Right now there is a scandal going through the police force that I work for, and trust me, I want it to be exposed for what it is. I chose this profession to protect people, and also to prove the innocence of people. When one collects evidence, you collect ALL evidence, whether inculpatory or exculpatory. You do not get to "pick and choose" what you present. At least not in a fair trial.....

Sorry but you are incorrect. There are defendants.

Your claims to being a cop are only that, claims on the Internet.

Do, however, feel free to publish the details of this case that the police have which have not been published to date. ( in other words, you don't know)

[fritzzz25]

Sorry but you are incorrect. There are defendants.

Your claims to being a cop are only that, claims on the Internet.

Do, however, feel free to publish the details of this case that the police have which have not been published to date. ( in other words, you don't know)

Yep, they are claims. Claims I can back up. Feel free to come meet me for a drink in BKK in two weeks. I will show you. Bring all your credentials along too.

I will also have a court designated forensic crime scene investigator along with me who has worked in excess of 30 homicides and given expert court testimony on those cases.

Defendants, accused, perpetrators - semantics. -

Edited December 12, 2014 by fritzzz25

[lildragon]

Fritz555 hooray for good cops!

I think 90% of the posters on this topic would love for jd to go and meet you. Sadly he'll weasel out of it though.

[StealthEnergiser]

Does anyone think on all the Koh Tao related threads that there is a very small group of people that give an very strong impression that they want the Burmese boys jailed or executed without a fair trial.

No need to say names as we don’t want it to be personal .

Does it look like this group are posting almost 24 hours a day .

Should posters be concerned about this small group ?

Could they have an agenda and be protecting other people .

Is it possible that some of this small group may have been paid to counterattack every post.

99% posters on thai visa want the truth and are very concerned that the burmese boys are innocent , do you think this small group flood the threads and may be trying to stop the truth.

Do you think it is a good idea to not answer and ignore these posters ?

We all want to give respect to both families and the burmese boys a better chance at a fair trial.

This is not about moderation so please don’t discuss the mods but if you want to complain to just send a message through the message system.

[IslandLover]

fritzzz25, on 11 Dec 2014 - 09:22, said:

Personally, I do not give a flying what the families say. I care what the evidence says. Until that evidence is presented, and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, these two young men are innocent. There have been two people on here who are beating the proverbial dead horse over and over. These families have lost a loved one, yes I understand that and appreciate it. But they should be ashamed of the investigation that has plastered the horrific crime scene photos of their children's nude bodies on social media within hours of these homicides. These families appear to not care who goes down for this, just that someone does. These two accused left their poor families to go abroad to be able to make a meagre living to send some money home. They were treated horribly by the local police having to pay "fines" to have the privilege to stay there and work.

These two men deserve a fair trial, with proper evidence collection, no threats, no torture, proper translation, investigators with integrity and most of all be afforded the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty. Until this trial is complete, those who are so sure that this case is "perfect" should be placing their integrity on the line. You want to see a case of a horrible police actions, look at the case called "the Surrey six" that occurred in Canada. One of the longest and worst gangland slayings in the country. The TOP investigators of an elite homicide team with combined investigation of homicides well over 50 years collectively, decided that their personal interests (one of them impregnating the star witness who was the girlfriend of one of the killers who assisted in cleaning the murder weapons) along with partying with these witnesses in other countries spending money lavishly. Their actions were called into question and had this not been such a horrific murder scene, with one of the killers (who had previously murdered two other people and was acquitted in self defence, one of who I arrested personally for the murder) confessing and testifying against the others, this travesty of an investigation was nearly tossed out of court. Here is part of the case that was ruled on about their extremely stupid actions - http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/2014/2014bcsc2172/2014bcsc2172.html

What I am saying, is NO case is perfect. DNA is not fool proof. DNA says someone was there. DNA does not speak. It can only offer a very strong circumstantial case that someone was there. Here is a prime example of how DNA can be manipulated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schneeberger and I wouldnt be surprised if "someone" did something like this to clear themselves of a DNA test.

I have 17 years of law enforcement experience, still serving and am truly embarrassed by the shoddy police work that was done. Investigation is like playing poker. You keep your cards close to your chest. Your bluff will get called, and you damn well better be holding a royal flush when you think you have a perfect case. I also have prosecuted criminal court for three years. So, unless you two have cold hard forensic evidence that was collected in a proper manner, without influence of the local village headman, his son, his dive shop buddies all over the crime scene, then show your cards.

So yeah, I am an arm chair quarter back, and I have worked murder cases, and attempted murder cases along with sexual assaults. More sexual assaults than I have ever wanted to ever have to investigate. And I can tell you, in everyone of those sexual assaults, no rapist wears a condom.

I have also been privy to some of the defence documents, as well as photographs and gone over them with highly trained forensic crime scene investigators and I can tell you, there are going to be some surprises when it comes to the police explanation of the weapons "alleged to have been used" when the forensic evidence is going to show different.

So, I apologize to the families for their loss. I have been the one who has had to break the news to families of homicide victims. They all want justice, but they want proper justice - not innocent people who are set up due to their hierarchy in society.

Powerful post.

These families appear to not care who goes down for this, just that someone does.

Not wishing to sound insensitive but that is the feeling I got when I read the families' statements.

[fritzzz25]

Fritz555 hooray for good cops!

I think 90% of the posters on this topic would love for jd to go and meet you. Sadly he'll weasel out of it though.

I would even buy!

[IslandLover]

catsanddogs, on 11 Dec 2014 - 10:03, said:

Peter Walker

The Guardian, Wednesday 10 December 2014 20.30 GMT

http://www.theguardi...der-uk-tourists

]“The British government opposes the death penalty in all circumstances, yet it appears that their actions in this case could be contributing to death sentences for Burmese migrants after an extremely unfair trial. The UK should adhere to their policy on the death penalty and should urge the Thai authorities to conduct a fair and open trial that does not result in the executions of potentially innocent individuals.”[/t-color]

Andy Hall, a British activist who works with Burmese migrants in Thailand and has been assisting the defence team, said the lack of access to the prosecution case made the task of compiling the defence “almost impossible”.[/t-color]

Email [/t-color][email protected] to request they make all evidence available to the defence team in order to provide fairness to the suspects.

In addition to what you have quoted from the Guardian article, the following comments from Andy Hall are also worthy of note:

He said: “Our team are confused about what evidence the prosecution have. We don’t know anything but media speculation. We’ll only know at the time we submit our own evidence. It’s an impossible situation – how do you prepare when you don’t know the case against you? That’s a principle of criminal justice, that you need to know the case against you to defend yourself.”

He added: “Also the UK government say they want a fair trial, but they’re also not sharing any information. They’ve got autopsy reports and witness statements of Britons who came back to the UK. If it’s such a strong case, why not share it?”

[boomerangutang]

Spooked of what boomerangutang? Of you? You continue to show yourself full of hubris with your baseless accusations; you can posture as much as you like it won't cover for the inadequacies of your arguments or the lack of evidence to support them.

You're spooked because you know down deep that the Headman's people should be prime suspects, and if RTP were not beholden to the Headman and his money, they would be.. By every indication you're desperately shielding the Headman's people and are as spooked as jdinasia and JTJ that Nomsod will be re-designated as a prime suspect (as well as some others, like Mon, you're protecting). I'll list once more some of the reasons. I can call it 'evidence' whereas you can continue to cry it's not. But do us all a favor, and quit repeating the same question ad nauseum. It shows you as, well.... spooked.

>>> CCTV from island appears to show Nomsod, to tens of thousands of people who have seen it. For the first week of the investigation, cops thought it showed Mon. The video has no resemblance to the scapegoats.

>>> Nomsod hid from police for a week. He got a haircut (to distance himself from the video images). His alibi is soggier than a Saltine in a toilet bowl

>>> He refused to get DNA tested until weeks later, when he was assured by Cops it wouldn't match. Officials wouldn't tamper with DNA would they? ha ha ha.

It's not just Nomsod, it's his uncle and their mafia-wannabe tough-guy friends, at least one of whom is a cop (with Mon, the morning after) - who should be suspects. Cops are even more off-limits to investigators than the Headman's people, if that's possible. Oh, but cops never do anything criminal in Thailand, do they?

I think the B2 were summoned to the scene after the deed had been done to move bodies/strip clothes what not. They were then told they'd be protected.

You understand that what you think makes them guilty, right?

Makes them guilty of being an accessory to murder yes. They are pleading not guilty to the actual rape and murders.

Ok, jdinasia wants to comment on someone else's supposition. Well let's expand upon that a bit: Let's say several drug-crazed thugs from the bar do the murders, but (according to the scenario painted by lildragon) the Burmese kids are told to clean it up. From jdinasia's perspective, it makes the Burmese guilty, but no mention of the thugs who caused the deaths, as if they're excused.

[IslandLover]

boomerangutang, on 11 Dec 2014 - 16:48, said:

Calling the work by the RTP 'flawed' is like calling New Orleans after Katrina 'damp.'

Were that the investigation by RTP were just flawed, then there wouldn't be such an outcry by hundreds of thousands of people taking an interest in it.

It's a lot worse than flawed. It's a concerted effort by Thai officials to frame 2 young men, while concurrently shielding those who should be prime suspects.

Perhaps the B2 had some involvement (rape after H's death? though I find that highly unlikely), but no objective-minded person can see two small men over-powering 2 farang, one of whom was considerably taller/bigger than either of the scapegoats. ....and then go on to commit such a passion-fueled murder of the girl.

One of the dozens of mis-calls by RTP investigators (who, btw, aren't formally trained in crime investigation or forensics) is the scenario they paint: David and Hannah strolling off in the wee hours, commencing to have sex, Burmese becoming instantly stimulated, enraged and bloodthirsty .....is a ludicrous recreation. David and Hannah were not even romantically involved, and actually that's one reason (I believe) the scenario degenerated at the crime scene. Some of the AC bar guys were-keying in on Hannah, probably for over an hour prior to the crime (that's one of many reasons why we hear nothing from RTP about scenario at bar that night). They would have found out early on that Hannah and David weren't linked romantically, so that would give the perps added hopes for getting sex with her. There's more that could be said, but for two reasons, I'll leave it at that: A. I've described in earlier posts what (to me) is a plausible scenario, and B. respect for the victims' families.

There is a reference to an argument in the AC bar that night involving Hannah and "the management" in an article published in the Nation a few weeks ago. I have it bookmarked on another computer so don't have the link to hand right now. It also says that a foreign tourist took a photo of said argument. I have heard this photo exists from other official sources too (and BTW not CSILA!). I wonder where that photo is and who took it? If this is really true then I find the statements by the victim's families all the more baffling.

[jdinasia]

Spooked of what boomerangutang? Of you? You continue to show yourself full of hubris with your baseless accusations; you can posture as much as you like it won't cover for the inadequacies of your arguments or the lack of evidence to support them.

You're spooked because you know down deep that the Headman's people should be prime suspects, and if RTP were not beholden to the Headman and his money, they would be.. By every indication you're desperately shielding the Headman's people and are as spooked as jdinasia and JTJ that Nomsod will be re-designated as a prime suspect (as well as some others, like Mon, you're protecting). I'll list once more some of the reasons. I can call it 'evidence' whereas you can continue to cry it's not. But do us all a favor, and quit repeating the same question ad nauseum. It shows you as, well.... spooked.

>>> CCTV from island appears to show Nomsod, to tens of thousands of people who have seen it. For the first week of the investigation, cops thought it showed Mon. The video has no resemblance to the scapegoats.

>>> Nomsod hid from police for a week. He got a haircut (to distance himself from the video images). His alibi is soggier than a Saltine in a toilet bowl

>>> He refused to get DNA tested until weeks later, when he was assured by Cops it wouldn't match. Officials wouldn't tamper with DNA would they? ha ha ha.

It's not just Nomsod, it's his uncle and their mafia-wannabe tough-guy friends, at least one of whom is a cop (with Mon, the morning after) - who should be suspects. Cops are even more off-limits to investigators than the Headman's people, if that's possible. Oh, but cops never do anything criminal in Thailand, do they?

I think the B2 were summoned to the scene after the deed had been done to move bodies/strip clothes what not. They were then told they'd be protected.

You understand that what you think makes them guilty, right?

Makes them guilty of being an accessory to murder yes. They are pleading not guilty to the actual rape and murders.

Ok, jdinasia wants to comment on someone else's supposition. Well let's expand upon that a bit: Let's say several drug-crazed thugs from the bar do the murders, but (according to the scenario painted by lildragon) the Burmese kids are told to clean it up. From jdinasia's perspective, it makes the Burmese guilty, but no mention of the thugs who caused the deaths, as if they're excused.

It is a silly conspiracy theory. It is not from my perspective, it is a matter of law.

[StealthEnergiser]

Sorry but you are incorrect. There are defendants.

Your claims to being a cop are only that, claims on the Internet.

Do, however, feel free to publish the details of this case that the police have which have not been published to date. ( in other words, you don't know)

Yep, they are claims. Claims I can back up. Feel free to come meet me for a drink in BKK in two weeks. I will show you. Bring all your credentials along too.

I will also have a court designated forensic crime scene investigator along with me who has worked in excess of 30 homicides and given expert court testimony on those cases.

Defendants, accused, perpetrators - semantics. -

JD would not meet you he is not interested in the truth coming out that has been very very clear from day one and noted by 99.9 percent of posters on this forum .

[AleG]

Does anyone think on all the Koh Tao related threads that there is a very small group of people that give an very strong impression that they want the Burmese boys jailed or executed without a fair trial.

No need to say names as we don’t want it to be personal .

Does it look like this group are posting almost 24 hours a day .

Should posters be concerned about this small group ?

Could they have an agenda and be protecting other people .

Is it possible that some of this small group may have been paid to counterattack every post.

99% posters on thai visa want the truth and are very concerned that the burmese boys are innocent , do you think this small group flood the threads and may be trying to stop the truth.

Do you think it is a good idea to not answer and ignore these posters ?

We all want to give respect to both families and the burmese boys a better chance at a fair trial.

This is not about moderation so please don’t discuss the mods but if you want to complain to just send a message through the message system.

Do you know that accusing posters of being paid to do so is against forum rules? Do you know that ridiculous, baseless accusations only discredit anything you say because it demonstrates that you put your beliefs ahead of actual facts?

Wanting people to shut up because they disagree with you is a sign of weakness, you feel your beliefs are threatened by people asking for facts instead of speculation.

[AleG]

Spooked of what boomerangutang? Of you? You continue to show yourself full of hubris with your baseless accusations; you can posture as much as you like it won't cover for the inadequacies of your arguments or the lack of evidence to support them.

You're spooked because you know down deep that the Headman's people should be prime suspects, and if RTP were not beholden to the Headman and his money, they would be.. By every indication you're desperately shielding the Headman's people and are as spooked as jdinasia and JTJ that Nomsod will be re-designated as a prime suspect (as well as some others, like Mon, you're protecting). I'll list once more some of the reasons. I can call it 'evidence' whereas you can continue to cry it's not. But do us all a favor, and quit repeating the same question ad nauseum. It shows you as, well.... spooked.

>>> CCTV from island appears to show Nomsod, to tens of thousands of people who have seen it. For the first week of the investigation, cops thought it showed Mon. The video has no resemblance to the scapegoats.

>>> Nomsod hid from police for a week. He got a haircut (to distance himself from the video images). His alibi is soggier than a Saltine in a toilet bowl

>>> He refused to get DNA tested until weeks later, when he was assured by Cops it wouldn't match. Officials wouldn't tamper with DNA would they? ha ha ha.

It's not just Nomsod, it's his uncle and their mafia-wannabe tough-guy friends, at least one of whom is a cop (with Mon, the morning after) - who should be suspects. Cops are even more off-limits to investigators than the Headman's people, if that's possible. Oh, but cops never do anything criminal in Thailand, do they?

Ok, jdinasia wants to comment on someone else's supposition. Well let's expand upon that a bit: Let's say several drug-crazed thugs from the bar do the murders, but (according to the scenario painted by lildragon) the Burmese kids are told to clean it up. From jdinasia's perspective, it makes the Burmese guilty, but no mention of the thugs who caused the deaths, as if they're excused.

Oh, you know deep down what I believe... You know nothing, and continue to conflate opinion with facts and speculation with evidence.

That is your "evidence"? It's laughable, or it would if it wouldn't be that you'd like to send someone to a meeting with an executioner to satisfy your prejudices.

-"CCTV from the island appears to show..." appears to show two men walking, period. There is nothing to validate any match between Nomsod's CCTV footage and the one in Koh Tao, that people that let their egos dictate what they see think so is not evidence. But, by all means, go to the trial with your evidence and see how it flies. I assume you have already contacted the defense team, haven't you?

-"Nomsod hid from police for a week. He got a haircut (to distance himself from the video images)", speculation again, you have no idea what he did, when he did it and why he did it. First you formed a conclusion, then you go around picking up "facts" to support it.

-"He refused to get DNA tested until weeks later, when he was assured by Cops it wouldn't match. Officials wouldn't tamper with DNA would they? ha ha ha." This "evidence" is 100% speculation again, you don't get it, do you? Just because you think make something up it doesn't become a fact or evidence, that you continue to make the same mistake over, and over, and over again only proves that you are incapable of determining facts, yet you believe you have cracked the case.

[boomerangutang]

I am not posting speculation and conspiracy theories.

If you're thinking of becoming a stand-up comedian, take a tip from me, don't quit your day job.

Does anyone think on all the Koh Tao related threads that there is a very small group of people that give an very strong impression that they want the Burmese boys jailed or executed without a fair trial.

I don't think they really have it out for the B2 (wanting them executed, etc), except to the degree that: finding the B2 guilty will automatically clear the Headman's people from official scrutiny. That's what they really want: to get Nomsod and Mon out of the discussion. They're not getting it, that's why they post non-stop, and toss out the phrase; 'conspiracy theory' (probably have it on CNTRL V) in every post.