Americans involved in torture can be prosecuted abroad, analysts say

[Emster23]

I am American and I trully hope they do arrest those POS people that did this sort of crap in my name. Can hardly wait for the "I was just following orders" excuses they may recall from Nuremburg trials. Absolute disgrace, did more harm than good (if did any good, which I doubt). No one in US has the balls to take these neo nazi types to court so hope they international community steps up and looks for some accountability and punishment for these human rights violations.

[MobileContent]

First one US don't ratified ICC

Second, US don't extradite his citizen.....

Third former president bush is protect by law

It will be difficult

So if I don't recognize Thai traffic laws, no policeman can give me a ticket for traffic violations?

Thanks for informing us about that.

Thailand is a sovereign nation and when you're on its soil you are subject to its laws. You don't have an equivalent there.

Who is going to go onto US soil and grab a US citizen and enforce its "laws" on the USA? Who is going to kidnap a US citizen who's abroad and subject him to some imagined "international law" if the US won't allow it? It would be an act of war.

No need actually. It is known that CIA operatives have been kidnapping European's. One such person is a German national and some names are known to prosecutors. Put the US citizen on Interpol and they can ship him to Europe. No need to go to the International Court.

[kamahele]

While the US did sign the Geneva Convention in 1950, it did not sign on to the 1977 changes strengthening the document in regards to treatment of prisoners (if I understand correctly). While any foreign country could arrest those involved, none would dare arrest a former president. It just won't happen. They may arrest former military, CIA officials, doctors, psychologists etc. that were involved but it would cause serious issues in their relationships with the USA. As an American, I think Bush should be held responsible for the entire war with Iraq which he led us into with lies. I believe he is responsible for every death and injury that took place there as well as the conditions presently.

[MobileContent]

Don't hold your breath, not going to happen. This is old news and the Obama justice department already said it will not happen and they will not honor any foreign request on this.

Interpol is the key. Of course if any US citizen decides to stay in the US they will not be shipped overseas.

[mania]

History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

following World War II war crime trials were convened.

The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war

crimes committed against American POWs.

Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding,"

[yellowboat]

Torture was a poor decision and has cast a shadow on the nation. Those implicated in the report should be tried. If these people step foot in another country where international law is recognised, so be it. They will face the consequences. Doubtful these people will do that

[Credo]

Good luck getting the names of any of those CIA agents. The only agent whose name I have heard was Valerie Plume.

Also best of luck at getting the evidence to support an arrest and a conviction.

If people are interested in any kind of justice, it needs to be pursued in the US courts and it can be pursued there.

[impulse]

It's not a slippery slope at all. The US never ratified this "international law" and isn't and never has been subject to it.

What is it that makes people think that because some countries decide to have "international law" that one country which doesn't agree with it is forced to be subject to it? Do we have a one-world order where someone can force all countries to follow some supreme international leader? Who would that be?

The Nazis never ratified it, either. And I recall it still worked out badly for a lot of them. And quite a few Japanese guys that were only doing what their Emperor told them to do- long after they walked out of the League of Nations. And for 100+ guys from the former Yugoslavia. And...and...

The US didn't break any laws that it is subject to. Your "international law" is pie in the sky. (Another NeverSure quote)

What comes around goes around, and when the USA isn't the carrying the biggest stick on the block any more, we'll find out we are subject to international laws, whether we agreed to them or not.

Edited December 11, 2014 by impulse

[PJcm]

Now wouldn't the if some international court grabbed a US citizen and tried to prosecute him? We're not into that European-lose-your-sovereignty-to-a-group shit.

"Ring, ring ring." "Hello USA, this is the UN." "Oh really? Get lost."

Why would that be? It can't be because American consider themselves above international law, is it?

They think they are. And from a few posts on that other cia torture thread, some Americans think one American life is more precious than the rest of us. Some of those posts are as offensive as the ISIS mob.

If some people want to justify torture then are these same people willing to listen to ISIS' justification for beheading people? All such acts are heinous and crimes against humanity and unjustifiable.

If the majority of Americans cannot see why they too must be accountable to the rest of the civilised world in relation to these acts of torture and force their government to be a responsible global power, then they do not deserve to be the world's sole superpower.

I am no defender of The American government nor it's people but lets be frank, all of Europe would be speaking Russian if it wasn't for the amount of personnel, equipment and time and money put into NATO during the cold war. We should all acknowledge that favour especially since they paid for all of it.

[jomcondo]

First one US don't ratified ICC

Second, US don't extradite his citizen.....

Third former president bush is protect by law

It will be difficult

So if I don't recognize Thai traffic laws, no policeman can give me a ticket for traffic violations?

Thanks for informing us about that.

Thailand is a sovereign nation and when you're on its soil you are subject to its laws. You don't have an equivalent there.

Who is going to go onto US soil and grab a US citizen and enforce its "laws" on the USA? Who is going to kidnap a US citizen who's abroad and subject him to some imagined "international law" if the US won't allow it? It would be an act of war.

Total Hypocrisy!

The US calls this Extraordinary rendition when it suits them.

[chuckd]

A grand total of three (3) prisoners were water boarded.

Why not save all of your collective outrage for something important?

[BadBouy]

Now wouldn't the if some international court grabbed a US citizen and tried to prosecute him? We're not into that European-lose-your-sovereignty-to-a-group shit.

"Ring, ring ring." "Hello USA, this is the UN." "Oh really? Get lost."

Why would that be? It can't be because American consider themselves above international law, is it?

They think they are. And from a few posts on that other cia torture thread, some Americans think one American life is more precious than the rest of us. Some of those posts are as offensive as the ISIS mob.

If some people want to justify torture then are these same people willing to listen to ISIS' justification for beheading people? All such acts are heinous and crimes against humanity and unjustifiable.

If the majority of Americans cannot see why they too must be accountable to the rest of the civilised world in relation to these acts of torture and force their government to be a responsible global power, then they do not deserve to be the world's sole superpower.

Can you please list for me the "civilized" countries that have never tortured anyone? I'll make it easy for you just the past 100 years.

[mania]

Would have been better if years ago the Abu Ghraib photos that were suppressed were released.

10 years ago the ACLU sued for the release of these photos...Later in 2009 Obama

claimed it would infuriate the enemy & make conditions more dangerous for troops?

Now further on with 20/20 it may have been stopped/investigated a lot sooner?

Remember the Abu Ghraib Torture Pictures? There are More That Obama Doesnt Want You to See

Edited December 11, 2014 by mania

[lil fluffy clouds]

Now wouldn't the if some international court grabbed a US citizen and tried to prosecute him? We're not into that European-lose-your-sovereignty-to-a-group shit.

"Ring, ring ring." "Hello USA, this is the UN." "Oh really? Get lost."

Why would that be? It can't be because American consider themselves above international law, is it?

They think they are. And from a few posts on that other cia torture thread, some Americans think one American life is more precious than the rest of us. Some of those posts are as offensive as the ISIS mob.

If some people want to justify torture then are these same people willing to listen to ISIS' justification for beheading people? All such acts are heinous and crimes against humanity and unjustifiable.

If the majority of Americans cannot see why they too must be accountable to the rest of the civilised world in relation to these acts of torture and force their government to be a responsible global power, then they do not deserve to be the world's sole superpower.

Worlds biggest super power comes from being world's most successful

scammer/intimidator/manipulator...

[Mudcrab]

While the US did sign the Geneva Convention in 1950, it did not sign on to the 1977 changes strengthening the document in regards to treatment of prisoners (if I understand correctly). While any foreign country could arrest those involved, none would dare arrest a former president. It just won't happen. They may arrest former military, CIA officials, doctors, psychologists etc. that were involved but it would cause serious issues in their relationships with the USA. As an American, I think Bush should be held responsible for the entire war with Iraq which he led us into with lies. I believe he is responsible for every death and injury that took place there as well as the conditions presently.

Just shoot him then....seems to be quite popular historically.. I understand it's happened once or twice ( four times?) before in the land of the free..... guns.

[Mudcrab]

I am American and I trully hope they do arrest those POS people that did this sort of crap in my name. Can hardly wait for the "I was just following orders" excuses they may recall from Nuremburg trials. Absolute disgrace, did more harm than good (if did any good, which I doubt). No one in US has the balls to take these neo nazi types to court so hope they international community steps up and looks for some accountability and punishment for these human rights violations.

Wow an American!!

So where in America would you be from.. let me guess...Brazil? Uruguay? Paraguay? Canada? Mexico? Cuba? The United States? Argentina?

Pretty big place America.

[ravip]

Now wouldn't the if some international court grabbed a US citizen and tried to prosecute him? We're not into that European-lose-your-sovereignty-to-a-group shit.

"Ring, ring ring." "Hello USA, this is the UN." "Oh really? Get lost."

Why would that be? It can't be because American consider themselves above international law, is it?

What is international law, and where does it get any authority over a sovereign nation?

The concept of international law resides in the minds of the brainwashed.

You should be appointed as the next Secretary-General of the United Nations.

[muffy]

• That would be an act of war . After they finished with the terrorists they should have cut their heads off .

Edited December 11, 2014 by muffy

[Ulysses G.]

I am American

Wow an American!!

So where in America would you be from.

Probably the country that the dictionary says is short for the United States of America.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[ravip]

First one US don't ratified ICC

Second, US don't extradite his citizen.....

Third former president bush is protect by law

It will be difficult

That confirms there is no REAL law in this Planet!

Hurrah! There are no wrong doers anymore!

Long live the USA and its policies!

Lets go to the next full moon party...

[snarky66]

This is real bad news for Barry who will never be able to travel outside the United States again due to his killing hundreds or thousands of innocent women and children with his drone strikes.

[timewilltell]

Does this apply to every nationality or is it specifically Americans? I wonder because it seems there are plenty of Thais committing torture - not least ones in brown clothing - yet no one seems to be the least bit interested in following that up. I wonder why?

[Oilhound]

This is too funny, reading these comments.

[RPCVguy]

First one US don't ratified ICC

Second, US don't extradite his citizen.....

Third former president bush is protect by law

It will be difficult

So if I don't recognize Thai traffic laws, no policeman can give me a ticket for traffic violations?

Thanks for informing us about that.

Thailand is a sovereign nation and when you're on its soil you are subject to its laws. You don't have an equivalent there.

Who is going to go onto US soil and grab a US citizen and enforce its "laws" on the USA? Who is going to kidnap a US citizen who's abroad and subject him to some imagined "international law" if the US won't allow it? It would be an act of war.

Have Bush W and Cheney gone overseas in last say 5 years? What's their record compared to other ex presidents and Vp?

I suspect they might not want to test their chances of getting a warm welcome.

Bush has all but become a hermit who paints, while Cheney has previously canceled a speech in Toronto for security reasons - concerned that the venue would be swarmed by protestors calling for his arrest - as had happened in Vancouver. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/13/10672649-former-vice-president-dick-cheney-cancels-trip-to-canada-says-its-too-dangerous

The International law is not "imagined" but rather a treaty. While the USA has not signed onto the ICC, the USA DID sign onto the"Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" (commonly known as the United Nations Convention against Torture). That happened in 1984 under President Reagan, and the treaty became effective in 1987.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

It would indeed be a political nightmare and many yahoo Americans would want to attack whichever nation Bush, Cheney (or others) actually served the arrest papers - but once anyone leaves US soil and the diplomatic conveyances of the various embassies, then that person is subject to the laws of the land upon which they entered. (Think about people breaking the law on foreign soil, and the most Americans in jail in any nation are in jail in Mexico, primarily near Tijuana - because of what partying excesses happen there. And as people on TV are aware, if you are arrested in Thailand, you are subject to Thai laws.) Same Same, only difference is the threat of political retaliation. The moral argument is already lost. This short satirical piece says it well -

http://www.juancole.com/2014/12/trial-richard-cheney.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

I believe that if Bush, Cheney and company were cautious before... they will be far more cautious in the future.

Oh, and the current Obama Administration is on thin ice with its drone programs and global NSA surveillance... PLUS it is in violation of the above treaty for NOT itself prosecuting those who instigated and perpetrated the acts of torture.

[chuckd]

By all means, let's get a rope and hang those nasty CIA types that put those three (3) Islamic radicals through that horrible treatment. Those radicals were merely expressing their anger at the evil satan that is the US.

Here are some of those radicals trying to do their good deeds:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISIS wants $1M for Foley’s body

By Michael Hechtman

December 11, 2014 | 2:25am

ISIS is trying to sell the remains of beheaded journalist James Foley to his parents or the US government for $1 million, according to a new report.

A source who is a middleman contacted by ISIS to broker the deal told BuzzFeed that the terror group is trying to present it as an act of mercy for the family and a “humanity case,” the website said.

The Islamic fundamentalist group, which has overrun large sections of Iraq and Syria, killing thousands of people in the process, had been financing its military by selling oil produced by the wells in the areas it has captured and by collecting ransom from the governments of its non-American hostages.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/isis-wants-1m-for-james-foleys-headless-body/

[NeverSure]

"Bush has all but become a hermit who paints, while Cheney has previously canceled a speech in Toronto for security reasons - concerned that the venue would be swarmed by protestors calling for his arrest - as had happened in Vancouver. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/13/10672649-former-vice-president-dick-cheney-cancels-trip-to-canada-says-its-too-dangerous

The International law is not "imagined" but rather a treaty. While the USA has not signed onto the ICC, the USA DID sign onto the"Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" (commonly known as the United Nations Convention against Torture). That happened in 1984 under President Reagan, and the treaty became effective in 1987.
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

It would indeed be a political nightmare and many yahoo Americans would want to attack whichever nation Bush, Cheney (or others) actually served the arrest papers - but once anyone leaves US soil and the diplomatic conveyances of the various embassies, then that person is subject to the laws of the land upon which they entered. (Think about people breaking the law on foreign soil, and the most Americans in jail in any nation are in jail in Mexico, primarily near Tijuana - because of what partying excesses happen there. And as people on TV are aware, if you are arrested in Thailand, you are subject to Thai laws.) Same Same, only difference is the threat of political retaliation. The moral argument is already lost. This short satirical piece says it well -
http://www.juancole.com/2014/12/trial-richard-cheney.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

I believe that if Bush, Cheney and company were cautious before... they will be far more cautious in the future.
Oh, and the current Obama Administration is on thin ice with its drone programs and global NSA surveillance... PLUS it is in violation of the above treaty for NOT itself prosecuting those who instigated and perpetrated the acts of torture."

---------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. You are confusing "Signed," "ratified" and "went into force."

When there is a meeting, representatives of nations may "sign" it, but it has no effect unless/until the governing body of that nation ratifies it.

Even more, if a nation basically declares war if other countries try to impose their laws/treaties/conventions on that country, you hardly have a treaty.

Publicus did a very good job earlier of explaining what the US Congress said about any country arresting someone from the US right down to using military force to stop it. That was as recent as 2002.

So in essence if any country or its representative would be stupid enough to arrest Cheney or Bush, it would effectively be declaring war and the US would use military force to stop it. THAT is US law.

People are too brainwashed into thinking that there is some "international law" which overrides a nation's sovereignty without the agreement of that nation. There is not.

You could declare war and take out Saddam or Gaddafi, but who is going to declare war on The United States of America and take out selected leaders?

Who?

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^, correct me if I am wrong, OBL and your Saudi friends from the Abha region did a pretty decent job of it on 9/11.

Years later and trillions of tax $$$$$ later (wasted some may say) the threat still remains.

[NeverSure]

^^^^^, correct me if I am wrong, OBL and your Saudi friends from the Abha region did a pretty decent job of it on 9/11.

Years later and trillions of tax $$$$$ later (wasted some may say) the threat still remains.

Ask OBL how that worked out for him.

If the US is attacked on its own soil it will never stop hunting and killing the people responsible. The war on terrorism can't be won, so it can't be stopped. Just keep reaching out and grabbing a handful of them and kill them.

The money isn't wasted. OBL and his ilk had to be found and killed. 9/11 was the dumbest damn thing those terrorists could have done.

[ggt]

Why do you think that the CIA outsourced the torture of prisoners to a private firm? They wanted to protect themselves from being named in any wrong doing and scandal as a result of this illegal activity...

I say prosecute all involved...this form of torture has not the American way in the past...this would be a good time to say no to unethical police, CIA, and government programs...

America wants to police the world on human rights issues...America police up your own mess...you are standing now on shaky ground...

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^, correct me if I am wrong, OBL and your Saudi friends from the Abha region did a pretty decent job of it on 9/11.

Years later and trillions of tax $$$$$ later (wasted some may say) the threat still remains.

Ask OBL how that worked out for him.

If the US is attacked on its own soil it will never stop hunting and killing the people responsible. The war on terrorism can't be won, so it can't be stopped. Just keep reaching out and grabbing a handful of them and kill them.

The money isn't wasted. OBL and his ilk had to be found and killed. 9/11 was the dumbest damn thing those terrorists could have done.

About the time of the USS Cole bombing I read an article in The Stars n Stripes, that spoke of the threat from within.

Now years later its coming home to roost.

If the truth be told, Uncle Sam backed the wrong horse in this race, he should have put his money on Iran.

For reasons that cant be discussed on here for fear of being branded an anti ******, Uncle Sam has made his bed and now has to lie in it.

Its a pity the truth is hidden from the American people, never mind its all about politics and getting Hilary to the White House.