Sydney siege: Gunman takes hostages in Lindt cafe

[whybother]

Yes of course. What I meant was that it should be called a terrorist situation which one would hope has differant rules of engagement. The world has seen the results of far too many islamic terrorist hostage takings. Once the call has been made there is only one option, take out the threat at first oppertunity.

I'm not sure if how the incident was labelled would change the rules of engagement. There is an armed gunmen, possibly with bombs (but not likely at this stage). The police would have rules of engagement for the situation on the ground, not the label that people give it.

Confirmation coming from the media that police are now treating this as a terrorist situation not a hostage situation. With any luck the Aus coppers will treat this terrorist the same as the recent ones in Canada.

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

[canman]

Yes of course. What I meant was that it should be called a terrorist situation which one would hope has differant rules of engagement. The world has seen the results of far too many islamic terrorist hostage takings. Once the call has been made there is only one option, take out the threat at first oppertunity.

I'm not sure if how the incident was labelled would change the rules of engagement. There is an armed gunmen, possibly with bombs (but not likely at this stage). The police would have rules of engagement for the situation on the ground, not the label that people give it.

Confirmation coming from the media that police are now treating this as a terrorist situation not a hostage situation. With any luck the Aus coppers will treat this terrorist the same as the recent ones in Canada.

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

I don't know but a guess would be less time spent on negotiation and more time spent on planning to take out the threat ASAP. The hostages safety I am sure are still high on the priority list but given the gory history of islamic terrorist hostage situations the main focus has got to be on getting a clear head shot.

[chooka]

Hearing 2 more are out, but the wife has won control of the remote.

I see a woman on the TV. I only saw 1, but TV is saying two women.

More escapees?

If so, it would seem that 'they're not really that well organised these scum bags.

Great they got out. My wife made me shake my head, she said why the news not talking to them straight away? Had to inform her this is not Thailand where the media are standing next to the police and they aren't allowed into the area. She says but people want to hear what the hostages say as they run out, Australia has such silly laws stopping news going in.

[webfact]

Five hostages run out of Sydney siege cafe

SYDNEY (AFP) - Five people ran out of a Sydney cafe where a gunman has taken hostages and displayed an Islamic flag against the window, witnesses and police said Monday, adding that no one has yet been harmed.

Three hostages, all men, emerged from the Lindt chocolate cafe almost six hours after the standoff began with two women fleeing around an hour later, watched by heavily armed police.

It was not clear if they escaped or were released.

"Three people have now emerged from the location in Martin Place," New South Wales police deputy commissioner Catherine Burn said, referring to the central business district location.

"The first thing we will do is make sure they are okay.

"We will work with these people to figure out more information. We do not have information to suggest that anyone is harmed at this stage."

Two other women hostages ran out some time later, an AFP reporter at the scene witnessed.

Police said they did not have precise figures on how many hostages remained in the building but Burn said "it is not as high as 30" as some reports had suggested.

She added that police negotiators "have had contact and continue to have contact" with the person holding the hostages, but they still did not know the motivation for the siege.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Five-hostages-run-out-of-Sydney-siege-cafe-30249859.html


-- The Nation 2014-12-15

[whybother]

Hearing 2 more are out, but the wife has won control of the remote.

I see a woman on the TV. I only saw 1, but TV is saying two women.

More escapees?

If so, it would seem that 'they're not really that well organised these scum bags.

Great they got out. My wife made me shake my head, she said why the news not talking to them straight away? Had to inform her this is not Thailand where the media are standing next to the police and they aren't allowed into the area. She says but people want to hear what the hostages say as they run out, Australia has such silly laws stopping news going in.

Australian censorship. It would never happen in Thailand.

/sarc

[whybother]

An experienced shooter might be able to take them out, but without gun control, how many inexperienced shooters would there be that could take innocents out?

Gun control is hitting what you aim at.

Gun control is controlling who has guns. Once someone has a gun, you can't control how good their aim is and how many people they kill.

The less people that have guns the better.

[NeverSure]

An experienced shooter might be able to take them out, but without gun control, how many inexperienced shooters would there be that could take innocents out?

Gun control is hitting what you aim at.

Gun control is controlling who has guns. Once someone has a gun, you can't control how good their aim is and how many people they kill.

The less people that have guns the better.

Let's drop it. We'll never agree.

Peace.

[chooka]

Yes of course. What I meant was that it should be called a terrorist situation which one would hope has differant rules of engagement. The world has seen the results of far too many islamic terrorist hostage takings. Once the call has been made there is only one option, take out the threat at first oppertunity.

I'm not sure if how the incident was labelled would change the rules of engagement. There is an armed gunmen, possibly with bombs (but not likely at this stage). The police would have rules of engagement for the situation on the ground, not the label that people give it.

Confirmation coming from the media that police are now treating this as a terrorist situation not a hostage situation. With any luck the Aus coppers will treat this terrorist the same as the recent ones in Canada.

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

I don't know but a guess would be less time spent on negotiation and more time spent on planning to take out the threat ASAP. The hostages safety I am sure are still high on the priority list but given the gory history of islamic terrorist hostage situations the main focus has got to be on getting a clear head shot.

You have no idea do you and have never been involved in a siege. Time is a good friend, whilst negotiations are going on there is always another team doing further planning. The who situation involves a number of teams filling different roles reporting to one commander. The longer it goes on generally allows the hostage taker to calm down and they generally think about thier actions. Trying to rush an incident makes the offender more agitated and puts hostages at risk.

[Chicog]

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

It most likely means they are not expecting a negotiated outcome.

Which means this bloke is probably getting taken down after dark.

[whybother]

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

It most likely means they are not expecting a negotiated outcome.

Which means this bloke is probably getting taken down after dark.

He seems to be releasing hostages. I doubt they will go in if that's happening.

[neverdie]

Hearing 2 more are out, but the wife has won control of the remote.

I see a woman on the TV. I only saw 1, but TV is saying two women.

More escapees?

If so, it would seem that 'they're not really that well organised these scum bags.

There isn't an ounce of coward in me. How about you?

I don't know Neversure, you answer the question. I Policed on the streets for over 2 decades. I carry a lot of wounds from carrying out my duties diligently and never taking a step backwards. I've been shot at, stabbed, kicked, punched, wrestled to the ground. I put myself between angry men and been involved in so many incidents they've all blurred together.

I never hid in an office and I never delayed getting to an incident. I've been in more than my fair share of scraps and dangerous situations. I've been to sieges and a few if my mates never came home from jobs, I was on scene several times when this happened. Nothing glorious about any of it.

Maybe you think I am a coward, I don't care.

What I am is though, is alive. I survived what I was exposed to and wi all the experienced I gained I formed an educated professional opinion that in these types of situations that people like the tactical police that are in attendance in Sydney are the ones that should have the firearms.

Sure, if a guy like LUST just happened to be there, all the better more, but LUST is LUST, I am me and you are not. You may be really capable with your rifle or side arm, but you haven't trained for,this type of incident and more than likely you arnt proficient in dealing with a situations where either a.) innocent people are in The fire line or b.) under fire yourself. The last thing the professionals need is some whacko shooting from the hip at this point. Take that as a Fact.

I've been shot at, have you? Let me tell you, I must be a coward because when it happened I remember wishing I was somewhere else, but I didn't run and stayed and did my job.

The stuff I'm saying is exactly the same information The Police Commissioner of NSW will say, I guess by your measure, we are Both wrong.

Anyway, all I can say is thank god, nobody of skill and mindset is in the building today....as it's most likely just going to complicate the situation.

[Scott]

Numerous posts and replies dealing with the issue of gun control have been removed. Continued off-topic, inflammatory and bickering posts will result in suspension.

This is a developing story and it is happening NOW. Please confine your comments to the story at hand and keep your political commentary about Australia to a minimum.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

[neverdie]

You have no idea do you and have never been involved in a siege. Time is a good friend, whilst negotiations are going on there is always another team doing further planning. The who situation involves a number of teams filling different roles reporting to one commander. The longer it goes on generally allows the hostage taker to calm down and they generally think about thier actions. Trying to rush an incident makes the offender more agitated and puts hostages at risk.

Well said....but be prepared to be told differently by the armchair experts.

[Credo]

The longer the time, the greater the chance that they can identify exactly who the bad guys are and who the innocent ones are and any habits that might making it easier to make sure innocent people aren't injured, should quick action be required.

[MrWorldwide]

One of the few images released by the media to offer any hope for the hostages - hopefully the Police can sort this tonight. This woman - and the others inside the cafe - would have woken up this morning prepared for another Monday morning in the city - I hope she can put this behind her post counselling.

[EyesWideOpen]

This is getting out of hand. Time for western countries to start seriously reviewing

their immigration policies as regards to middle eastern people....

[Chicog]

He seems to be releasing hostages. I doubt they will go in if that's happening.

They seem to be reporting it as them escaping. Three out of the rear fire exit; two out of the front door.

Hopefully they'll be giving the SWAT team every bit of information they need to take this chump out.

[whybother]

This is getting out of hand. Time for western countries to start seriously reviewing

their immigration policies as regards to middle eastern people....

What if they're born in said country?

[chooka]

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

It most likely means they are not expecting a negotiated outcome.

Which means this bloke is probably getting taken down after dark.

The police want to negotiate a peaceful outcome, they don't want it to come to lethal force. No police officer wants to draw a firearm and use it and if they do they live with it for the rest of thier lives. It destroys them and thier families and don't wish it on any officer.

[whybother]

Reports that demands have been made, but the media isn't reporting what they are.

[climbertrev1]

If the hostage takers in this incident are homegrown terrorists, I wonder whether we'll be hearing the usual excuses of how they've been disenfranchised and have been on the receiving end of racial epithets which are all responsible for their radicalization?

Whether they are homegrown or otherwise.

I hope the only thing they hear is a volley of shots before being sent to meet their virgins.

Correction it isn't virgins (74 or whatever number) it's one 74 year old virgin.

Seriously though I hope all the hostages and those surrounding the crime site remain unharmed. As for the hostage takers I would like to see them taken alive and put on trial and if found guilty of any crimes be imprisoned for a very very long time.

[canman]

Yes of course. What I meant was that it should be called a terrorist situation which one would hope has differant rules of engagement. The world has seen the results of far too many islamic terrorist hostage takings. Once the call has been made there is only one option, take out the threat at first oppertunity.

I'm not sure if how the incident was labelled would change the rules of engagement. There is an armed gunmen, possibly with bombs (but not likely at this stage). The police would have rules of engagement for the situation on the ground, not the label that people give it.

Confirmation coming from the media that police are now treating this as a terrorist situation not a hostage situation. With any luck the Aus coppers will treat this terrorist the same as the recent ones in Canada.

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

I don't know but a guess would be less time spent on negotiation and more time spent on planning to take out the threat ASAP. The hostages safety I am sure are still high on the priority list but given the gory history of islamic terrorist hostage situations the main focus has got to be on getting a clear head shot.

You have no idea do you and have never been involved in a siege. Time is a good friend, whilst negotiations are going on there is always another team doing further planning. The who situation involves a number of teams filling different roles reporting to one commander. The longer it goes on generally allows the hostage taker to calm down and they generally think about thier actions. Trying to rush an incident makes the offender more agitated and puts hostages at risk.

I did say "I don't know but I guess" The counterpoint I was trying to make was that there will be differant tactics involved once in a "terrorist hostage situation" as opposed to a "hostage situation". You and others on here have been at the front line and I haven't so yes my comments involve some speculation and I would not argue with your experience.

Common sense tells me that given the history of islamist hostage situations the chances of "talking the guy down" are less than say a domestic or robbery gone bad and that leads me to believe differant tactics would be deployed.

[wow64]

Terrorist attack near Beers & Burgers.. Pretty sure every copper in Australia is on their way to help out on this one.

This one could drag out for a long time.

Edited December 15, 2014 by wow64

[jacky54]

Could this be part of the motive? Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Lets hope this terrorist is not an extremist. It's all very well for the grand Mufti and all the others to bleat their condemnation of acts like this, but until they start to condemn what motivates this sort of jiahd it will be of little help. They cannot do so as that would be to condemn Allah and the prophet

[jpinx]

If the hostage takers in this incident are homegrown terrorists, I wonder whether we'll be hearing the usual excuses of how they've been disenfranchised and have been on the receiving end of racial epithets which are all responsible for their radicalization?

Whether they are homegrown or otherwise.

I hope the only thing they hear is a volley of shots before being sent to meet their virgins.

Correction it isn't virgins (74 or whatever number) it's one 74 year old virgin.

Seriously though I hope all the hostages and those surrounding the crime site remain unharmed. As for the hostage takers I would like to see them taken alive and put on trial and if found guilty of any crimes be imprisoned for a very very long time.

Indeed -- it is most important to give the cause no martyrs.

[Chicog]

Indeed -- it is most important to give the cause no martyrs.

It's not the least bit important. What's important is that he is prevented from taking any lives, and if that means popping one into his skull, get on with it.

[Mosha]

Reports that demands have been made, but the media isn't reporting what they are.

A guy on BBC has said he wants the black IS rag

[transam]

What's the difference between a "terrorist" situation and a "hostage" situation? Do the hostages now get ignored?

It most likely means they are not expecting a negotiated outcome.

Which means this bloke is probably getting taken down after dark.

The police want to negotiate a peaceful outcome, they don't want it to come to lethal force. No police officer wants to draw a firearm and use it and if they do they live with it for the rest of thier lives. It destroys them and thier families and don't wish it on any officer.

Not true........

[Jingthing]

Reports that demands have been made, but the media isn't reporting what they are.

A guy on BBC has said he wants the black IS rag

Correct and also he wants to speak to the PM.

[jacky54]

Just shoot the bastard as soon as possible, they have enough guns trained on him, and he will get tired soon enough.