Myanmar embassy seeking defence witnesses for Koh Tao accused

[hahaha555]

"Why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?"

The British police have already answered this: they had no jurisdiction to do so. So you should be asking Cameron: Why didn't you insist on the British investigators being allowed to take samples?

We know the answer, of course: trade, good relations blah blah. Much more important than justice.

[SLESQ]

Thank you for responding timely; now please also write to others about our need. Please send this note to all your correspondents, post it on all your social network sites, and help others to know when they dig into their wallets, again and again, and if we can attract a benefactor even one who sets up a matching funds grant, we may have a chance.

The Myanmar government's offer to help is fantastic! But we need more.

MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund (online/bank) reaches 500,000 Baht (US$15,200). Thanks all donors. The link has been removed due to TVF rules but you can find it with a Google search, where you can also find the latest information on MWRN spending and case assistance updates.

I am being very modest here, because mounting a defense to any litigation is costly. The costs are the greatest as here where the penalty is the death of two innocent, hard-working lads. The money is not for lawyers as we are all donating our time and effort for free. We need at least $10 or $25 or $100 or greater donations from everyone to pay defense costs that for the most part are:

1. Air travel (many trips) from Bangkok to and from the island for the defense team (lead lawyer, human rights proponent, and Burmese assistants as interpreters) to attend court and meet with witnesses; coach fare @ THB 5,000 one way;

2. Modest lodging, meals and transport while on the island,
3. Costs for key fact witnesses to travel to Bangkok to meet with the defense team, and/or for the defense team to travel to them;
4. Expert witnesses must have their costs paid. Some may insist on a fee that if we don’t have we will lose their help.
5. We may find the court agrees with us and grants the defense the opportunity to put on a real defense and get testimony from witnesses who have fled. That will keep our trial cost needs going for another six (6) months or longer and greatly increase defense costs to send members of the team to other nations, such as Australia, France, Myanmar, Spain, and the UK.

6. We want to bring the boys' 3 surviving parents from Myanmar to the trial to give the lads the emotional support they are so much in need of. They are/were their parents sole sole source of income. Now they worry more about their parents than about themselves.

Please contact any member of the defense team; ask your good questions, and then please give generously.

I've reviewed with Andy Hall who administers the defense fund, his accounting and am satisfied that he is careful and frugal, and using the fund only for the defense of these kids. The site offers donors an opportunity to also support Andy’s office, but you don’t need to if you don’t want to. I hope you will. Thank you.

http://www.elevenmyanmar.com/index.php…

“The Myanmar government has agreed to provide security and expenses in Thailand for the main defence witnesses of the accused Myanmar migrant workers in the Koh Tao murder case, said the embassy investigation team.”

“The Myanmar Embassy is attempting to find possible defence witnesses for the accused Myanmar migrant workers in Kao Tao murder case,….” http://www.elevenmyanmar.com/index.php…

[JLCrab]

7. 02 DEC 2014 At this point their grief is still great, but the parents of Hanna and David have a right, an obligation, to come forward, to come here to give testimony in support of the lads who innocence is well known but can't be proved UNLESS the Brit witnesses who palled around with Hanna and David come forward to tell what they know.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/781591-koh-tao-thai-court-charges-pair-over-murders-of-british-backpackers/?view=findpost&p=8759505

Well, I guess you can save some money on that one.

[Iumentum]

I still believe that Sean hold information about his case that could solve it, and maybe even clear the names of the accused. He has been told already that he got blood on his hands, and i am sad to say that he might already have 2 deaths on his and soon he will have 2 more. If we won't hear much more about Sean in this case, i think it's a sign of powerful people involved or that Sean was babbling to begin with. However, if there is a drug syndicate involved, Sean will never be safe if he raise his voice more than he already did. Anyway, there is no way that this farce will bring justice now. Shame on.....

[Norvid]

If the defense has a good lawyers and is able to call Thai police to a witness stand, than a lot of good things could come out of it. Knowing answers is the key to any question presented in this case. Wish them good luck.

[outsider]

Never mind the number of witnesses. That there are witnesses and they are refusing to testify because they fear for their lives, says a lot already.

[evadgib]

why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?

The question you should be asking is why (if not) hasn't the defense asked the British investigators to do so and compare it with their own coroner's results.

Instead they want to call in "we are trying to contact the leaders of migrant workers, committee members who are helping Myanmar migrant workers in Thailand and migrant workers who love their country.", that is to say, not witnesses directly related with the crime.

Furthermore the act of rounding up witnesses constitutes 'interfering' under international convention; a fact likely to be challenged in court. Edited December 21, 2014 by evadgib

[partington]

Clearly for the Myanmar defense to call for witnesses means they do not trust or believe the DNA evidence that implicates the accused.

Accumulating a set of people who will declare they saw the accused somewhere else during the time of the murders would mean less than nothing if the forensic evidence proves semen from the accused was inside the victim's body. From the efforts being made by the defense to provide witnesses it seems likely that they do not believe the DNA evidence will provide this level of proof.

The prospect of an intervention from British police is more wishful thinking than reality. In living rape victims it is generally accepted that DNA must be collected within 72 hours of the crime for a usable sample to be obtained. This of course may differ in a deceased victim who will not be breaking down the DNA as fast. However a combination of the amount of time elapsing between commission of the crime and the bodies' arrival in the UK, the previous collections by Thai investigators, and the treatment/cleaning of the body makes the successful collection of DNA in the UK extremely remote as a possibility.

Quote (my emphasis) from Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals (2013) Jane M. Taupin CRC Press:

" Sperm is destroyed quickly in the relatively hostile environment of a

vagina. Many protocols recommend the taking of vaginal samples only if

the postcoital interval is less than 72 hours or three days (Mayntz-

Press et al., 2008). The literature notes that spermatozoa, although few in number,

can sometimes persist in a vaginal canal longer than three days, but

the survival rates are longer in the cervix. It has occasionally been found

that spermatozoa survive more than a week in a deceased victim.

The ability to obtain a DNA profile of a semen donor from a vagina using

routine DNA profiling decreases rapidly after 24 to 36 hours following

coitus and it is usually not possible to perform a profile after 48 hours

(Saferstein, 2005)."

[berybert]

why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?

The question you should be asking is why (if not) hasn't the defense asked the British investigators to do so and compare it with their own coroner's results.

Instead they want to call in "we are trying to contact the leaders of migrant workers, committee members who are helping Myanmar migrant workers in Thailand and migrant workers who love their country.", that is to say, not witnesses directly related with the crime.

Furthermore the act of rounding up witnesses constitutes 'interfering' under international convention; a fact likely to be challenged in court.

Really ? So when the police start enquiries after a death, interviewing people etc that is in fact against the law.

No wonder so many crimes never get solved here.

[berybert]

Clearly for the Myanmar defense to call for witnesses means they do not trust or believe the DNA evidence that implicates the accused.

Accumulating a set of people who will declare they saw the accused somewhere else during the time of the murders would mean less than nothing if the forensic evidence proves semen from the accused was inside the victim's body. From the efforts being made by the defense to provide witnesses it seems likely that they do not believe the DNA evidence will provide this level of proof.

The prospect of an intervention from British police is more wishful thinking than reality. In living rape victims it is generally accepted that DNA must be collected within 72 hours of the crime for a usable sample to be obtained. This of course may differ in a deceased victim who will not be breaking down the DNA as fast. However a combination of the amount of time elapsing between commission of the crime and the bodies' arrival in the UK, the previous collections by Thai investigators, and the treatment/cleaning of the body makes the successful collection of DNA in the UK extremely remote as a possibility.

Quote (my emphasis) from Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals (2013) Jane M. Taupin CRC Press:

" Sperm is destroyed quickly in the relatively hostile environment of a

vagina. Many protocols recommend the taking of vaginal samples only if

the postcoital interval is less than 72 hours or three days (Mayntz-

Press et al., 2008). The literature notes that spermatozoa, although few in number,

can sometimes persist in a vaginal canal longer than three days, but

the survival rates are longer in the cervix. It has occasionally been found

that spermatozoa survive more than a week in a deceased victim.

The ability to obtain a DNA profile of a semen donor from a vagina using

routine DNA profiling decreases rapidly after 24 to 36 hours following

coitus and it is usually not possible to perform a profile after 48 hours

(Saferstein, 2005)."

72 hours or 3 days.... Work that out and you too can have some letters after your name.

[JLCrab]

It seems to me the defense has put themselves in a box-canyon in claiming that it has "strong" witnesses as to the innocence of the two accused but such potential witnesses are unwilling to come forward due fear, intimidation, and possible bodily harm from the 'real killers'.

Let's say the defense puts in a motion to have the defense portion of the trial moved to a courthouse in Bangkok where the potential defense witnesses will feel more secure. What is the Court supposed to say? The Court cannot allow a motion based upon the possible influence of the 'real killers' otherwise why are these two persons here on trial if the Court acknowledges the existence of 'real killers' who are not the persons currently on trial.

[greenchair]

10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg

Thank you for responding timely; now please also write to others about our need. Please send this note to all your correspondents, post it on all your social network sites, and help others to know when they dig into their wallets, again and again, and if we can attract a benefactor even one who sets up a matching funds grant, we may have a chance.

The Myanmar government's offer to help is fantastic! But we need more.

MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund (online/bank) reaches 500,000 Baht (US$15,200). Thanks all donors. The link has been removed due to TVF rules but you can find it with a Google search, where you can also find the latest information on MWRN spending and case assistance updates.

I am being very modest here, because mounting a defense to any litigation is costly. The costs are the greatest as here where the penalty is the death of two innocent, hard-working lads. The money is not for lawyers as we are all donating our time and effort for free. We need at least $10 or $25 or $100 or greater donations from everyone to pay defense costs that for the most part are:

1. Air travel (many trips) from Bangkok to and from the island for the defense team (lead lawyer, human rights proponent, and Burmese assistants as interpreters) to attend court and meet with witnesses; coach fare @ THB 5,000 one way;

2. Modest lodging, meals and transport while on the island,

3. Costs for key fact witnesses to travel to Bangkok to meet with the defense team, and/or for the defense team to travel to them;

4. Expert witnesses must have their costs paid. Some may insist on a fee that if we dont have we will lose their help.

5. We may find the court agrees with us and grants the defense the opportunity to put on a real defense and get testimony from witnesses who have fled. That will keep our trial cost needs going for another six (6) months or longer and greatly increase defense costs to send members of the team to other nations, such as Australia, France, Myanmar, Spain, and the UK.

6. We want to bring the boys' 3 surviving parents from Myanmar to the trial to give the lads the emotional support they are so much in need of. They are/were their parents sole sole source of income. Now they worry more about their parents than about themselves.

Please contact any member of the defense team; ask your good questions, and then please give generously.

I've reviewed with Andy Hall who administers the defense fund, his accounting and am satisfied that he is careful and frugal, and using the fund only for the defense of these kids. The site offers donors an opportunity to also support Andys office, but you dont need to if you dont want to. I hope you will. Thank you.

http://www.elevenmyanmar.com/index.php

The Myanmar government has agreed to provide security and expenses in Thailand for the main defence witnesses of the accused Myanmar migrant workers in the Koh Tao murder case, said the embassy investigation team.

The Myanmar Embassy is attempting to find possible defence witnesses for the accused Myanmar migrant workers in Kao Tao murder case,. http://www.elevenmyanmar.com/index.php

So happy the defense team is finally getting active. If the Myanmar government is willing to contribute to b2 defense. Then I am two. I wish my government would stand by its people like that.

[tattoodrob]

Can the defence lawyers call the policeman/men who offered a bribe and then assauted a guy to be a pretend witness and find out why? can they call the cops and pancake translator involved in the torture/threats to see if there stories hold up exactly the same as to what happened in the so called safehouse. What about the cop who said

"He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

Maybe they can ask what this evidence was, and why is now not important........this may help the defence.

It would also be interesting to call the boys father to see why he said his boy was not fleeing but returning to Bangkok to University.....i thought he wasnt on the Island according to others but father seems to think he was.........maybe his own father was confused who he was talking about and made a mistake that he had just said goodbye to him that morning!

Can they ask for schedule on the handling of the DNA,where sent and dates received back etc,who handled the DNA as im sure they wont have detailed reports of who had access to the DNA and results as cops changed every week or so it seems .

It would be great to hear the excuses they give for all of the above!.....lots of backtracking would be going on there.

Personally i think judge is in on it and outcome will be already decided by those in charge.......shame on them.

Edited December 21, 2014 by tattoodrob

[SLESQ]

[attachment=298046:10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg]

Are YOU or anyone you know an additional potential witness in the Koh Tao murder case? Have you or anyone you know seen anything? Or heard anything?

There is still some short time remaining to come forward to assist the accused Zaw Lin/Wai Phyo and the defense team.

If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Hall’s Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

Thank you for your good comments and questions. I will not offer any concrete answers or comments about defense tactics or strategy, but know please what we need are fact witnesses and donors to come forward now.

The murder occurred in the evening of 14-15 September. There were quite a few British and other nationals on Kho Tao from 14-20 September. There are many people with actual knowledge who were talking about the murder and about those who approached and scared them to run off and hide. Many from Myanmar were in the same situation: people with actual knowledge were talking and then fled the island to save their own lives either because they were directly or indirectly threatened.

If you or anyone you know can tell us the names of any of those who have that actual knowledge based on conversations they had, those are the people we need to hear from now… sooner than now.

The generosity and thoughtfulness of many here helped to grow the defense fund to about US$ 15,000 by the end of last week. But the costs are only mounting and we need to reach out to you again, and to reach others.

“If the Myanmar Government is willing to the defense… then I am too” posted greenchair.

Thank you, greenchair and others who have donated. The Myanmar Government has offered for key witnesses to transport, house, and protect its citizens who return to Thailand or appear in hearings that may be held in Myanmar. That is a generous and welcomed offer.

More mundane but equally necessary costs are detailed in Post # 62, above.

“The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund” is where donations are made. If made by PapPal or credit card, the sums are tax decuctible. You can find the website when you copy and paste those quoted words in a Google search. TVF rules prohibit me from offering the link here.

I will respond to a few items posted:

The defense team has been very active from the date the lads signed their lawyer appointment letter; you just have not heard from us as the work is demanding and exhausting.

Witnesses have been found and are refusing to go to court or to an out of court hearing because they have been directly threatened and fear for their jobs, their lives, and the lives of their families.

The NSY team and the British Embassy have not responded to requests for reports even as the FCO helped to publish comments by the decedents’ families deemed highly prejudicial to the defense. This is of course a death penalty case similar to others where the British Government has refused to take any part. You can ask them why they changed their long held public stance. I believe the NSY report is to be made available to the public sometime in the middle of January 2015 when the coroner’s report is due.

About DNA: what I can say is that a defense is being built to contest expected DNA claims made in public statements from the police and prosecutor. We should by right already have all the prosecution’s evidence that inculpates or exculpates the defendants, but... this it Thailand.

Unlike trials in Canada, France, the US, and the UK, the location for taking testimony and examining witnesses is not only at the courthouse on Samui. Applications can be made to take the testimony of key witnesses who are in other domestic or foreign locations.

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

After the first round of examinations and testimony is completed, the court will meet with the parties to determine if it will order a second, third, and additional rounds, and if yes, where they will be held. When the court deems the evidence sufficient, it will stop the evidence portion and may permit argument by counsel before the panel of 3 judges takes its own time to render and publish its decision.

Once more, please look at this site “The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund” and help defend the two lads. If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Hall’s Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

[JLCrab]

From the above: “The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund” is where donations are made. If made by PapPal or credit card, the sums are tax deductible.

From the YooCaring website:

Donations made on YooCaring.com are generally not tax-deductible because you are not giving directly to a 501(c 3 non-profit organization with a government issued EIN Tax ID #. Please consult your own tax adviser on any giving you may do on YooCaring.com.

Edited December 21, 2014 by JLCrab

[stephen terry]

10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg

Are YOU or anyone you know an additional potential witness in the Koh Tao murder case? Have you or anyone you know seen anything? Or heard anything?

There is still some short time remaining to come forward to assist the accused Zaw Lin/Wai Phyo and the defense team.

If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Hall’s Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

Thank you for your good comments and questions. I will not offer any concrete answers or comments about defense tactics or strategy, but know please what we need are fact witnesses and donors to come forward now.

The murder occurred in the evening of 14-15 September. There were quite a few British and other nationals on Kho Tao from 14-20 September. There are many people with actual knowledge who were talking about the murder and about those who approached and scared them to run off and hide. Many from Myanmar were in the same situation: people with actual knowledge were talking and then fled the island to save their own lives either because they were directly or indirectly threatened.

If you or anyone you know can tell us the names of any of those who have that actual knowledge based on conversations they had, those are the people we need to hear from now… sooner than now.

The generosity and thoughtfulness of many here helped to grow the defense fund to about US$ 15,000 by the end of last week. But the costs are only mounting and we need to reach out to you again, and to reach others.

“If the Myanmar Government is willing to the defense… then I am too” posted greenchair.

Thank you, greenchair and others who have donated. The Myanmar Government has offered for key witnesses to transport, house, and protect its citizens who return to Thailand or appear in hearings that may be held in Myanmar. That is a generous and welcomed offer.

More mundane but equally necessary costs are detailed in Post # 62, above.

“The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund” is where donations are made. If made by PapPal or credit card, the sums are tax decuctible. You can find the website when you copy and paste those quoted words in a Google search. TVF rules prohibit me from offering the link here.

I will respond to a few items posted:

The defense team has been very active from the date the lads signed their lawyer appointment letter; you just have not heard from us as the work is demanding and exhausting.

Witnesses have been found and are refusing to go to court or to an out of court hearing because they have been directly threatened and fear for their jobs, their lives, and the lives of their families.

The NSY team and the British Embassy have not responded to requests for reports even as the FCO helped to publish comments by the decedents’ families deemed highly prejudicial to the defense. This is of course a death penalty case similar to others where the British Government has refused to take any part. You can ask them why they changed their long held public stance. I believe the NSY report is to be made available to the public sometime in the middle of January 2015 when the coroner’s report is due.

About DNA: what I can say is that a defense is being built to contest expected DNA claims made in public statements from the police and prosecutor. We should by right already have all the prosecution’s evidence that inculpates or exculpates the defendants, but... this it Thailand.

Unlike trials in Canada, France, the US, and the UK, the location for taking testimony and examining witnesses is not only at the courthouse on Samui. Applications can be made to take the testimony of key witnesses who are in other domestic or foreign locations.

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

After the first round of examinations and testimony is completed, the court will meet with the parties to determine if it will order a second, third, and additional rounds, and if yes, where they will be held. When the court deems the evidence sufficient, it will stop the evidence portion and may permit argument by counsel before the panel of 3 judges takes its own time to render and publish its decision.

Once more, please look at this site “The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund” and help defend the two lads. If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Hall’s Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

I have made my donation today, as I am a believer of the B2 innocence. More than that, I also believe Thai thugs on the island are threatening potential witnesses. I hope they rot.

[AGareth2]

but their "supporters" believe in a fair trial!!

[Willy Eckerslike]

but their "supporters" believe in a fair trial!!

Yes just like the Government does.................................................... NOT!

Quote,

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

Edited December 21, 2014 by CharlieH

[stephen terry]

but their "supporters" believe in a fair trial!!

Yes just like the Government does.................................................... NOT!

Quote,

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

There's never going to be a fair trial. Already been decided that the B2 must carry the can for the good of Thailand. If they get off it would be a miracle better than Buddha finding enlightment.

[CharlieH]

Post removed and response to it:

Please stay on the topic of the thread. That means addressing the issues presented in the post, not in making comments to or about other posters. Doing so is off-topic and your post will be removed and you could face a suspension.

Digging through other member's posts and bringing them up on the forum can be considered stalking and it is against the forum rules.

You have every right to express your opinion about the topic. You may disagree, debate it etc but it must be done in a civil manner.

[catsanddogs]

but their "supporters" believe in a fair trial!!

Yes just like the Government does.................................................... NOT!

Quote,

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

There's never going to be a fair trial. Already been decided that the B2 must carry the can for the good of Thailand. If they get off it would be a miracle better than Buddha finding enlightment.

I believe in miracles. Keep the faith.

[jimmybkk]

Here's what I think happened, and I stress it is only what I think based on the only evidence I have seen, which is the photos of the crime scene... I am not stating any of this as fact, nor am I asking anyone to believe it. I'm sick and tired of some posters attempting to turn this forum into a courtroom with demands for evidence and proof and confirmation of everything anyone says, but of course, that is a great way of wasting time and distracting people from thinking about who the real killer(s) may be if in fact the 2 Burmese guys are innocent.

Good grief! Has this requirement of proof and validation for everything become a rule on all ThaiVisa posts now? If so then someone should take a look at one of the restaurant reviews I read where the poster stated: "The food was excellent but the portions were a little small..." and yet he had failed to provide a photo of his plate with a ruler next to it...

So here's what I think may have gone down in Koh Tao:

In the days David was there before Hannah arrived he had made friends with a few of the long-term residents of the island who would hang out at AC Bar. Amongst them was a gay man, a foreigner. This gay man was attracted to David and he quickly fell in love with him without David ever knowing how he felt. Then Hannah arrived and she and David became friends. The gay man noticed that Hannah was attracting David's attention and so he decided to be brave and tell David exactly how he felt, and in his deluded mind he felt quietly confident that deep down David felt the same way and a fantastic relationship was about to begin. Unfortunately when he made his feelings known to David things did not work out the way he had hoped. Instead of falling into his arms David politely declined his advances and instead went to sit at a table with Hannah.

The gay man felt humiliated. Every time he saw David or Hannah laugh he felt they were laughing at him. As he sat there watching them, drinking booze and getting drunk his humiliation turned to anger. How could he choose her over him? He could make David so much more happy than she ever could.... He decided that she needed to be taught a lesson "Koh Tao style" and spoke to his Thai friends who are persons of influence on the island and made plans for Hannah to be raped that night. The gay man was sure that David would not be interested in Hannah once he knew she had been raped, and that would open the door for their relationship to blossom.

When Hannah left the bar that night she was followed and abducted by the persons of interest and they proceeded to rape her whist the gay man watched from the shadows. Naturally, being gay he had no interest in taking part in the rape and so his DNA was never recovered from the scene.

Then things started going bad. David and Hannah did not leave the AC bar together that night - Hannah left first and David left some time later. As David was going home he heard Hannah's screams coming from the beach and went to investigate. When he saw what was happening he went to her aid and a struggle ensued during which he was struck over the and knocked unconscious. This persons of influence were now worried because they didn't want any other witnesses to the rape and so despite the gay man's protests they dragged David to the shallows and drowned him.

The gay man was now in an uncontrollable, hysterical rage - how could this have gone so wrong? It was intended to push the man he loved into his arms but instead he lay dead at his feet. His anger turned to Hannah. It was all her fault, his deranged mind is telling him. If she hadn't screamed so loud none of this would have happened. He recalls a hoe that he passed earlier on the way to beach and goes to retrieve it. His rage takes over and he then exacts his revenge on poor Hannah with such hatred, anger and violence that only those that have seen the crime scene photos can believe, and his anger is directed at her pretty face which is what in his mind is the cause of David's interest and the whole reason . Not content with having seen her raped, and brutally killing her his anger is such that he also needs to rob her of her beauty, humiliate her and degrade her and so he takes the time to "stage" the crime scene and "poses" Hannah's body the way it was eventually found (which I shall not describe here) whilst David's body is dragged from the water and stripped naked. As they walked away, despite there being an ocean only a few metres away, they left the murder at the scene. knowing it would be found.

So that is the theory, and here is the reasoning behind this thinking:

Why a gay male? Well, this was who was originally reported as being the prime suspect. It was then discounted with no reason being provided as to why it was discounted. I suspect the reason was that it became apparent that the gay man was accompanied by at least 2 of the island's untouchables.

When I read on Andrew Drummond's website that "There are not many journalists who have not heard the one about the mad gay foreigner who attacked the couple in a raging fit of jealousy who was caught on CCTV picking up the hoe from a building site." (http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/09/leaked-report-suggest-both-hannah-and.html) I wondered how unusual it may be for an attack such as this to be committed by a gay man, and what i discovered was that it is actually not uncommon at all. In fact, this quote is from The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers by Michael Newton: "Homosexual slayers clearly have no monopoly on violence, but it is true that their crimes often display extremes of "overkill" and mutilation...

The term "overkill", according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: a destructive capacity greatly exceeding that required for a given target. It is clear from the crime scene photos and police reports that Hannah's murder clearly displayed signs of overkill.

Being gay would also be a good reason why his DNA was not found on Hannah's body.

Why a foreigner? Well, the Koh Tao Police Commissioner at the time announced that "the team of police investigators have met a key witness who claimed seeing foreigner killed the two tourists". The senior officer must have been quite convinced in the witness testimony because the announcement contradicted the DNA being reported as suggesting that the semen found at the scene was from Asians. Very shortly after this he was removed and replaced.

Why the persons of influence? Well, it is incredibly unlikely that anyone could have accomplished this crime acting alone. And the confidence that is displayed by the killers taking the time to stage the crime scene and pose the bodies, and also leaving the murder weapon at the crime scene for anyone to find. Why not throw it into the sea (which would remove a lot of DNA evidence), unless you knew that it would not have any repercussions? In fact, in the same way that the crime scene was staged and the bodies were posed, it was intended to send a message.

Anyone who chooses to undertake the necessary research can grasp that these are not the actions of a couple of guys who got horny watching a guy and girl start making out on the beach nearby.

But what really got me thinking was the fact that one of the posters on TV who has been the most vociferous and unwavering in his view that the police had got the right guy happens to be gay, a diver, and a regular visitor Koh Tao... Go figure...

[evadgib]

[attachment=298046:10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg]

Unlike trials in Canada, France, the US, and the UK, the location for taking testimony and examining witnesses is not only at the courthouse on Samui. Applications can be made to take the testimony of key witnesses who are in other domestic or foreign locations.

I find this very hard to believe. Why hasn't anyone ever previously managed to achieve this @Samui or any other court?

Edited December 21, 2014 by evadgib

[DennisF]

I do wish people would not pen graphic re-enactments.

A brief overview would suffice.

The latest one has a rape, a white knight and a stalking gay man.

Imaginations run riot on here.

Jeez, sometimes I despair.

[StealthEnergiser]

Here's what I think happened, and I stress it is only what I think based on the only evidence I have seen, which is the photos of the crime scene... I am not stating any of this as fact, nor am I asking anyone to believe it. I'm sick and tired of some posters attempting to turn this forum into a courtroom with demands for evidence and proof and confirmation of everything anyone says, but of course, that is a great way of wasting time and distracting people from thinking about who the real killer(s) may be if in fact the 2 Burmese guys are innocent.

Good grief! Has this requirement of proof and validation for everything become a rule on all ThaiVisa posts now? If so then someone should take a look at one of the restaurant reviews I read where the poster stated: "The food was excellent but the portions were a little small..." and yet he had failed to provide a photo of his plate with a ruler next to it...

So here's what I think may have gone down in Koh Tao:

In the days David was there before Hannah arrived he had made friends with a few of the long-term residents of the island who would hang out at AC Bar. Amongst them was a gay man, a foreigner. This gay man was attracted to David and he quickly fell in love with him without David ever knowing how he felt. Then Hannah arrived and she and David became friends. The gay man noticed that Hannah was attracting David's attention and so he decided to be brave and tell David exactly how he felt, and in his deluded mind he felt quietly confident that deep down David felt the same way and a fantastic relationship was about to begin. Unfortunately when he made his feelings known to David things did not work out the way he had hoped. Instead of falling into his arms David politely declined his advances and instead went to sit at a table with Hannah.

The gay man felt humiliated. Every time he saw David or Hannah laugh he felt they were laughing at him. As he sat there watching them, drinking booze and getting drunk his humiliation turned to anger. How could he choose her over him? He could make David so much more happy than she ever could.... He decided that she needed to be taught a lesson "Koh Tao style" and spoke to his Thai friends who are persons of influence on the island and made plans for Hannah to be raped that night. The gay man was sure that David would not be interested in Hannah once he knew she had been raped, and that would open the door for their relationship to blossom.

When Hannah left the bar that night she was followed and abducted by the persons of interest and they proceeded to rape her whist the gay man watched from the shadows. Naturally, being gay he had no interest in taking part in the rape and so his DNA was never recovered from the scene.

Then things started going bad. David and Hannah did not leave the AC bar together that night - Hannah left first and David left some time later. As David was going home he heard Hannah's screams coming from the beach and went to investigate. When he saw what was happening he went to her aid and a struggle ensued during which he was struck over the and knocked unconscious. This persons of influence were now worried because they didn't want any other witnesses to the rape and so despite the gay man's protests they dragged David to the shallows and drowned him.

The gay man was now in an uncontrollable, hysterical rage - how could this have gone so wrong? It was intended to push the man he loved into his arms but instead he lay dead at his feet. His anger turned to Hannah. It was all her fault, his deranged mind is telling him. If she hadn't screamed so loud none of this would have happened. He recalls a hoe that he passed earlier on the way to beach and goes to retrieve it. His rage takes over and he then exacts his revenge on poor Hannah with such hatred, anger and violence that only those that have seen the crime scene photos can believe, and his anger is directed at her pretty face which is what in his mind is the cause of David's interest and the whole reason . Not content with having seen her raped, and brutally killing her his anger is such that he also needs to rob her of her beauty, humiliate her and degrade her and so he takes the time to "stage" the crime scene and "poses" Hannah's body the way it was eventually found (which I shall not describe here) whilst David's body is dragged from the water and stripped naked. As they walked away, despite there being an ocean only a few metres away, they left the murder at the scene. knowing it would be found.

So that is the theory, and here is the reasoning behind this thinking:

Why a gay male? Well, this was who was originally reported as being the prime suspect. It was then discounted with no reason being provided as to why it was discounted. I suspect the reason was that it became apparent that the gay man was accompanied by at least 2 of the island's untouchables.

When I read on Andrew Drummond's website that "There are not many journalists who have not heard the one about the mad gay foreigner who attacked the couple in a raging fit of jealousy who was caught on CCTV picking up the hoe from a building site." (http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2014/09/leaked-report-suggest-both-hannah-and.html) I wondered how unusual it may be for an attack such as this to be committed by a gay man, and what i discovered was that it is actually not uncommon at all. In fact, this quote is from The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers by Michael Newton: "Homosexual slayers clearly have no monopoly on violence, but it is true that their crimes often display extremes of "overkill" and mutilation...

The term "overkill", according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: a destructive capacity greatly exceeding that required for a given target. It is clear from the crime scene photos and police reports that Hannah's murder clearly displayed signs of overkill.

Being gay would also be a good reason why his DNA was not found on Hannah's body.

Why a foreigner? Well, the Koh Tao Police Commissioner at the time announced that "the team of police investigators have met a key witness who claimed seeing foreigner killed the two tourists". The senior officer must have been quite convinced in the witness testimony because the announcement contradicted the DNA being reported as suggesting that the semen found at the scene was from Asians. Very shortly after this he was removed and replaced.

Why the persons of influence? Well, it is incredibly unlikely that anyone could have accomplished this crime acting alone. And the confidence that is displayed by the killers taking the time to stage the crime scene and pose the bodies, and also leaving the murder weapon at the crime scene for anyone to find. Why not throw it into the sea (which would remove a lot of DNA evidence), unless you knew that it would not have any repercussions? In fact, in the same way that the crime scene was staged and the bodies were posed, it was intended to send a message.

Anyone who chooses to undertake the necessary research can grasp that these are not the actions of a couple of guys who got horny watching a guy and girl start making out on the beach nearby.

But what really got me thinking was the fact that one of the posters on TV who has been the most vociferous and unwavering in his view that the police had got the right guy happens to be gay, a diver, and a regular visitor Koh Tao... Go figure...

I can understand your reasoning on a couple of the last points , but the rest have just gone completely over my head.

[greenchair]

I do wish people would not pen graphic re-enactments.

A brief overview would suffice.

The latest one has a rape, a white knight and a stalking gay man.

Imaginations run riot on here.

Jeez, sometimes I despair.

What an imagination he has.

[greenchair]

[attachment=298046:10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg]

Are YOU or anyone you know an additional potential witness in the Koh Tao murder case? Have you or anyone you know seen anything? Or heard anything?

There is still some short time remaining to come forward to assist the accused Zaw Lin/Wai Phyo and the defense team.

If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Halls Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

Thank you for your good comments and questions. I will not offer any concrete answers or comments about defense tactics or strategy, but know please what we need are fact witnesses and donors to come forward now.

The murder occurred in the evening of 14-15 September. There were quite a few British and other nationals on Kho Tao from 14-20 September. There are many people with actual knowledge who were talking about the murder and about those who approached and scared them to run off and hide. Many from Myanmar were in the same situation: people with actual knowledge were talking and then fled the island to save their own lives either because they were directly or indirectly threatened.

If you or anyone you know can tell us the names of any of those who have that actual knowledge based on conversations they had, those are the people we need to hear from now sooner than now.

The generosity and thoughtfulness of many here helped to grow the defense fund to about US$ 15,000 by the end of last week. But the costs are only mounting and we need to reach out to you again, and to reach others.

If the Myanmar Government is willing to the defense then I am too posted greenchair.

Thank you, greenchair and others who have donated. The Myanmar Government has offered for key witnesses to transport, house, and protect its citizens who return to Thailand or appear in hearings that may be held in Myanmar. That is a generous and welcomed offer.

More mundane but equally necessary costs are detailed in Post # 62, above.

The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund is where donations are made. If made by PapPal or credit card, the sums are tax decuctible. You can find the website when you copy and paste those quoted words in a Google search. TVF rules prohibit me from offering the link here.

I will respond to a few items posted:

The defense team has been very active from the date the lads signed their lawyer appointment letter; you just have not heard from us as the work is demanding and exhausting.

Witnesses have been found and are refusing to go to court or to an out of court hearing because they have been directly threatened and fear for their jobs, their lives, and the lives of their families.

The NSY team and the British Embassy have not responded to requests for reports even as the FCO helped to publish comments by the decedents families deemed highly prejudicial to the defense. This is of course a death penalty case similar to others where the British Government has refused to take any part. You can ask them why they changed their long held public stance. I believe the NSY report is to be made available to the public sometime in the middle of January 2015 when the coroners report is due.

About DNA: what I can say is that a defense is being built to contest expected DNA claims made in public statements from the police and prosecutor. We should by right already have all the prosecutions evidence that inculpates or exculpates the defendants, but... this it Thailand.

Unlike trials in Canada, France, the US, and the UK, the location for taking testimony and examining witnesses is not only at the courthouse on Samui. Applications can be made to take the testimony of key witnesses who are in other domestic or foreign locations.

The lawyers for both sides are to meet on 26 December to discuss the first round of and locations for hearings. This date may be postponed because the Government failed last week to produce its list of witnesses and evidence on time. This is a standard ugly ploy used to compel the defense to produce its evidence and witness first, while the prosecution ignores court orders at will.

After the first round of examinations and testimony is completed, the court will meet with the parties to determine if it will order a second, third, and additional rounds, and if yes, where they will be held. When the court deems the evidence sufficient, it will stop the evidence portion and may permit argument by counsel before the panel of 3 judges takes its own time to render and publish its decision.

Once more, please look at this site The MWRN Koh Tao case accused fair trial defense fund and help defend the two lads. If you have important information to share with us, please contact the defense team via Andy Halls Face Book pages or by email [email protected]

We can all help a little bit. 10 dollars is not going to break the bank. We all want the truth. The defense team is the only possible way to get that truth.

They deserve to be supported in their quest for answers.

[changnaam]

Interesting theory Jimmy, but my opinion, and again only an opinion is that the anger was directed at Hannah because she turned someone down in public who is never turned down. That person lost a huge amount of face, and this was the retribution to show that this person will not tolerate such behavior, and they are above the law.

[jimmybkk]

Interesting theory Jimmy, but my opinion, and again only an opinion is that the anger was directed at Hannah because she turned someone down in public who is never turned down. That person lost a huge amount of face, and this was the retribution to show that this person will not tolerate such behavior, and they are above the law.

Also a possibility changnaam, but I just think that the anger and rage that was evident perhaps required something more than just being turned down. I mean if you consider the elements of her murder on a scale of 1 to 4, I would say 1 = rape, 2 = rape + murder, 3 = rape + brutal murder, and 4 = rape + brutal murder + crime scene staging. Bearing in mind that she had only arrived on the island a couple of days before she was killed I would be surprised if enough emotional attachment had occurred that the killer decided that her "crime" of rejecting him warranted a straight number 4 sentence.

I apologize if my description of the crime was too graphic for some people, but please believe I intentionally fell short of what the crime scene photos reveal. I do think, however, that people need to understand just how horrific this crime was. This was not a case of "I never meant to kill her... I just put a pillow over her face to keep her quiet... and when I took the pillow away she was already dead..." Please do not place this killing in that category. This killing should be placed in the same category as the killings of some of the worst serial killers this world has seen.

My heart bleeds for the parents of David and Hannah, and to them I offer my deepest and most sincere condolences. But my blood is also boiling at some people who are attempting to convince the world at large that the killers have been brought to justice and the island of Koh Tao is now safe, when in fact I think there is a very good possibility that this psychopath is still on the island, and it is for that reason that I keep posting here.

Personally I would not let my daughter go anywhere near that island right now and the guilty verdict on these 2 Burmese lads will not change that fact at all, and anyone who is protecting the identity of the real killer deserves to rot in hell for placing at risk someone else's son or daughter.

[lildragon]

Umm, interesting theory there jimmybkk. I think though that she rebuffed a local mafia boy and they did this. Hell they even boast about it on their FB page (AC Bar) with pics mocking the attack with a miniaturized hoe.

Those guys did it, are getting away with it and are gloating about the fact in public. It makes me sick to my stomach. I will never gonna back to Koh Tao for as long as I live.