No longer possible to start two-step process toward retirement visa in Chiang Mai

[NancyL]

Just learned from a senior official at CM Immigration that as of December 1, it's no longer possible for someone over age 50 to convert 30-day visa exempt entry or a Tourist Visa into a 90-day non-immigrant O visa as part of the so-called "two-step" process of gaining long-term permission to stay due to retirement.

Now someone will have to go to Bangkok in person to make this conversion. They will be able to use Income Letters or Declarations from Chiang Mai Consulates or letters from Chiang Mai banks as proof of financial worth.

They can complete the second step of the process in Chiang Mai, where they return during the final 30 days of their Bangkok-issued 90-day non-immigrant O visa and secure a 12-month extension of permission to stay due to retirement. Viola -- they are now officially a Chiang Mai retiree!

Question now -- tell me all about the process of applying for a conversion of visa-exempt entry or tourist visa in Bangkok. Where do you go? What time of day should you arrive to get in the queue? Any special tricks or pitfalls? Am I correct in assuming it's the same requirements with regards to forms, photos and fees?

[NancyL]

This explains why Chiang Mai Immigration was sitting on the release of the video filmed when they spoke at the CM Expats Club on October 22. They had an inkling this was coming. Now we have to figure out how to edit around this change.

This is part of why I'd like to get a better understanding of what CM people are suppose to do now , so we can include it in the video.

[ubonjoe]

I find it odd that there have been no reports of this happening for real. It has been a bit of time since the 1st.

If they do have to go Bangkok it will be done at the Chaeng Wattana immigration office. It will require 2 trips to complete it. The first trip to apply and the 2nd 15 days later to get the visa and entry stamps.

The documents required would be the same other than also needing a letter from the bank confirming the funds came from abroad if using the money in the bank option.

IMO it would best to go out for a non-o visa from a nearby embassy or consulate.

[NancyL]

Yes, I agree that it is strange that there haven't been reports of this being the case yet.

Two trips to Bangkok two weeks apart isn't good news.

There was a post after December 1 of a couple people doing a conversions in Chiang Mai -- I'll go back and find those and see if they can clarify when they did the conversions.

My source was Pol.Sen.Sgt.Maj. Suranuch Srilapetch and I made a point of clarifying December 1st with her. Definitely not January 1st.

[moe666]

Yes, I agree that it is strange that there haven't been reports of this being the case yet.

Two trips to Bangkok two weeks apart isn't good news.

There was a post after December 1 of a couple people doing a conversions in Chiang Mai -- I'll go back and find those and see if they can clarify when they did the conversions.

My source was Pol.Sen.Sgt.Maj. Suranuch Srilapetch and I made a point of clarifying December 1st with her. Definitely not January 1st.

A week ago I started a OP of why it would be diffcult to do this process in Chiang Mai for UK citizens. A couple of fellas I know had looked into this from a couple of agencies here one had discontinued the process and the other company wanted 16 thousand baht to do the conversion. From what they were told only diffcult for UK citizens, well all of the responses were no problem CM does the conversion should not be a problem. So reall what gives.

[NancyL]

I think the problem is that the ability to do conversions was yanked from Chiang Mai effective December 1st and the office probably got little or no warning.

I think part of the reason the agencies may charge more for British conversions is because of the need to provide documentation of income to the British consulate vs. the lower standards of documentary evidence required by the U.S. Consulate for an income letter.

All this is just speculation on my part.

Edited December 23, 2014 by NancyL

[Litlos]

I just did the conversion to retirement on the 7th of December at Bangkok. I was going to get the 90 day in Pattaya, but that was discontinued about end of September, so ended up doing both steps at Bangkok.

The Bangkok centre is at the Chaeng Wattana government centre and out the back, Google map reference 13.879947, 100.564421.

Office hours: Mon-Fri 8:30 - 12.00 and 13.00 - 16:30 Closed on OFFICIAL HOLIDAYS. There is always a line before opening time, but I have to wait to get the bank letter so always arrive a bit late for when the bank opens.

There is a photocopy, photo service I usually visit while waiting for the bank letter to be processed (20 minutes). Sort of head through the building from immigration as if walking back to Chaeng Wattana Rd, talk the first elevator down which brings you out near Chesters and the banks. There is also a 7/11so sort of head towards the 7/11 (left) side of the island group of shops and banks and keep walking as if to the front, probably about 100metres. I use the one on the left and have learned to give them the paperwork and say copy what I need (which does not mean I will not be back) it is about 2 Baht a copy. Once all the documents are ready head into the office, straight through the form filling out area into the big office and up to the desk to get a number. The people at the desk will want to see the paperwork before they give you a number, then retirement extensions to the left, 90 day and re-entry to the right.

The only advice I can give on times is get there early and avoid Mondays, Fridays and after holidays. The place was really busy the other day, but this was also a Monday which I normally avoid. Maybe with all the referred business they are busier now, hard to say. I did not get seen till after lunchtime, looked at the queue for re-entry afterwards and decided I would get a single on the way out that night. Was pleasantly surprised to find that it was 1200Baht for a single or 4000Baht for a multi re-entry at the airport so went with a multi, so a straight 200Baht fee for the airport service and only had to wait maybe 10 minutes. No more paperwork for a year I hope as I work 28x28 outside of Thailand.

The other thing I have noticed is no matter how many pieces of paper I have photocopied, there is always one more required if I get a senior person for the retirement extension, having watched a bit it seems they send you off for another photocopy, then catch up on their phone calls and paperwork while they wait. I have also had it where I did not have long enough on my passport (14 Months only), I explained I had ordered a new one but it was not delivered yet, the lady asked to see the receipt for the passport and said no real problem and processed the extension, just come back when you get a new passport and they transfer the stamps for free. So that was bending the official line of must have 18 months validity which was a surprise.

To get to the office I normally catch the BTS to Mo Chit, then taxi to the Chaeng Wattana centre.

Hope that helps out a bit.

Cheers

[paz]

I have also had it where I did not have long enough on my passport (14 Months only), I explained I had ordered a new one but it was not delivered yet, the lady asked to see the receipt for the passport and said no real problem and processed the extension, just come back when you get a new passport and they transfer the stamps for free. So that was bending the official line of must have 18 months validity which was a surprise.

I'm not aware of an "official line" of 18 months, in fact immigration issues extensions on passports that expire before the normal extension expiration. In that case the extension validity is made match the passport one, and cannot be recovered to full length when a new passport is obtained.

[NancyL]

Thanks, Litlos.

What if the home branch of your bank is in Chiang Mai? I just figured you'd bring a bank letter from there, which would be a day or two old. Is that not acceptable at Chaeng Wattana?

Seems like you've gone thru this process several times. Personally, now that I have a retirement extension, I don't have any intention of letting it run out, but I guess it wouldn't be the end of the world if it does and I had to start over again with a visa-exempt entry would it?

[Mario2008]

At BKK-immigration most banks have a branch where you can get the bank letter without any problem.

[moe666]

I think the problem is that the ability to do conversions was yanked from Chiang Mai effective December 1st and the office probably got little or no warning.

I think part of the reason the agencies may charge more for British conversions is because of the need to provide documentation of income to the British consulate vs. the lower standards of documentary evidence required by the U.S. Consulate for an income letter.

All this is just speculation on my part.

Typically the person who needs the help will obtain the letter from the UK or make copies of his bank account showing his retirement income and also visit their Embassy for the letter of income doubtful the visa service would do this leg work for them. Setting with my 2 friends yesterday we speculated that the on service had stopped offering this service because of the change and the 2nd service wanted 16,000baht because of the new changes but didn't offer the reason for the charge other than to say difficult. They will go to Laos and apply for Non-O visas as it is easier than 2 trips to Bangkok

[Litlos]

It is my experience that if you have the passbook and your passport you can get the bank letter at a branch which is not the usual one. The account I use is with Krungsri Central Rama 9 branch and I have obtained a letter at the Chaeng Wattana centre branch several times. I tried to get a letter at Pattaya without having my passbook, and no go without passbook.

I just tried to get on to the Immigration site about the 18 months passport validity and it is not responding. However there is this http://www.thaivisa.com/retirement-non-imm-oa-visa.html at Item 2. I am pretty sure I also checked the information on the immigration website at the time.

From my experience once you get the initial retirement extension it is easier and cheaper to not let it lapse and have to go through the hoops again. The problem I had was it used to be 30 days beforehand for renewal. I had one day between coming back from holiday to leaving for work, One airline cancelled a flight so I got back in Thailand at 2PM in the afternoon and flying back out at midnight. Should have been able to just do the extension when I got back, but bad weather and I got stuck offshore for two extra days messed that plan up. Luckily a couple of extra days offshore paid for the extra costs, I just used up two days of leave time to get it done.

Cheers

[ubonjoe]

Discussion is about extensions of stay not OA visas that are issued at an embassy.

There is no 18 month requirement to get an extension.

According to the New Regulation from August 13, 2013, when submitting application for Visa Extension if the validity of passport of the applicant is not longer than one year left before expiry, the extension of stay will be permitted not exceeding the expired date of passport.

After the renewal of your passport of obtaining a new passport, you have to re-apply for Visa Extension by submitting required document and paying extension fee ( 1,900 Baht ). In case of overstay, the fine is 500 Baht per day.

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php

[OJAS]

I just did the conversion to retirement on the 7th of December at Bangkok. I was going to get the 90 day in Pattaya, but that was discontinued about end of September, so ended up doing both steps at Bangkok.

The Bangkok centre is at the Chaeng Wattana government centre and out the back, Google map reference 13.879947, 100.564421.

Office hours: Mon-Fri 8:30 - 12.00 and 13.00 - 16:30 Closed on OFFICIAL HOLIDAYS. There is always a line before opening time, but I have to wait to get the bank letter so always arrive a bit late for when the bank opens.

There is a photocopy, photo service I usually visit while waiting for the bank letter to be processed (20 minutes). Sort of head through the building from immigration as if walking back to Chaeng Wattana Rd, talk the first elevator down which brings you out near Chesters and the banks. There is also a 7/11so sort of head towards the 7/11 (left) side of the island group of shops and banks and keep walking as if to the front, probably about 100metres. I use the one on the left and have learned to give them the paperwork and say copy what I need (which does not mean I will not be back) it is about 2 Baht a copy. Once all the documents are ready head into the office, straight through the form filling out area into the big office and up to the desk to get a number. The people at the desk will want to see the paperwork before they give you a number, then retirement extensions to the left, 90 day and re-entry to the right.

The only advice I can give on times is get there early and avoid Mondays, Fridays and after holidays. The place was really busy the other day, but this was also a Monday which I normally avoid. Maybe with all the referred business they are busier now, hard to say. I did not get seen till after lunchtime, looked at the queue for re-entry afterwards and decided I would get a single on the way out that night. Was pleasantly surprised to find that it was 1200Baht for a single or 4000Baht for a multi re-entry at the airport so went with a multi, so a straight 200Baht fee for the airport service and only had to wait maybe 10 minutes. No more paperwork for a year I hope as I work 28x28 outside of Thailand.

The other thing I have noticed is no matter how many pieces of paper I have photocopied, there is always one more required if I get a senior person for the retirement extension, having watched a bit it seems they send you off for another photocopy, then catch up on their phone calls and paperwork while they wait. I have also had it where I did not have long enough on my passport (14 Months only), I explained I had ordered a new one but it was not delivered yet, the lady asked to see the receipt for the passport and said no real problem and processed the extension, just come back when you get a new passport and they transfer the stamps for free. So that was bending the official line of must have 18 months validity which was a surprise.

To get to the office I normally catch the BTS to Mo Chit, then taxi to the Chaeng Wattana centre.

Hope that helps out a bit.

Cheers

All the more reason for a single trip to Savannakhet for a non-O rather than a double-dose of all this time-wasting nonsense, I think!

Edited December 25, 2014 by OJAS

[Diplomatico]

I find it odd that there have been no reports of this happening for real. It has been a bit of time since the 1st.

If they do have to go Bangkok it will be done at the Chaeng Wattana immigration office. It will require 2 trips to complete it. The first trip to apply and the 2nd 15 days later to get the visa and entry stamps.

The documents required would be the same other than also needing a letter from the bank confirming the funds came from abroad if using the money in the bank option.

IMO it would best to go out for a non-o visa from a nearby embassy or consulate.

Secondhand report of this happening this month:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/792712-retirement-visa-rumor-please-confirm-or-deny/

[ubonjoe]

I have moved that topic to this forum.

It was confirmed in a post earlier this week. A person was told they no longer do them and that he should go out of the country for a non-o. He is going to Vientiane for his non-o. Rather than going to Bangkok.

[JimGant]

I smell MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) all over this new wrinkle.........

Look at their website, here: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-%22O-A%22-%28Long-Stay%29.html

This page discusses their perception of what an "O-A" Long Stay visa is all about. And while not obvious about stating that an O-A visa can be obtained in Thailand, at least when listing requirements -- it becomes blatently obvious that they're saying as much when they state:

Applicant may submit their [O-A] application at the Royal Thai embassy or Royal Thai Consulate-General in their home/residence country or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located onGovernment Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210, Tel 0-2141-9889.

As far as MFA is concerned (and they're the visa gurus), if you want to stay in Thailand for a year as a retiree, you need to get a Non Immigrant visa. Period. And such a visa issued by MFA has the "O-A" suffix. Apparently what MFA is not aware of (or at least the writer of their regulations) is that when they granted Immigration (about 10 years ago) the authority to issue visas for the purpose of staying in Thailand for a year, that these visas were not identical to MFA's, namely, the "O-A" variety. Instead, for whatever reason, Immigration decided to issue the plain vanilla "O" variety of the Non Imm visa, then follow-up with the one-year extension of stay stamp. Why not just convert to a Non Imm "O-A" visa -- which has a built-in one year stay proviso -- then stamp the passport with a one year permission of stay stamp? Anyway, as we know -- and now running on another thread -- Immigration does refer to their conversion process as issuing a 'retirement visa' -- same as does MFA. And why not? The end result's the same, just a slight difference in process. Heck, if MFA and Immigration are on different frequencies, is it any wonder why newbies on this forum are confused..........?

But, I digress......

MFA loses money when retirees no longer patronize their consulates abroad for a visa. We saw reaction to this a few years back, when MFA disallowed the honorary consulates from issuing Non Immigrant "O-A" visas. Then, they put the damper on obtaining the other kind of visas via mail from the honorary consulates. So, potential retirees started showing up in Thailand, easily converting their visa exempt entries into Non Immigrant visas at their local Immigration office. Hmmmm. MFA apparently went back to their regulations, written when Immigration was granted authority to issue Non Imm visas for the purpose of long stay -- and where it clearly says can be obtained at the Immigration office at Chaengwattana. But, it doesn't say Immigration can do this elsewhere...... And if you make it difficult to do the conversion process, just maybe MFA will see an increase in O-A applications (at $200 a pop, since they're required to be multiple entry) at their consulates. Can't have Immigration getting too much of the visa pie, now can we..... Just like the honoraries got throttled.

[ubonjoe]

I smell MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) all over this new wrinkle.........

Look at their website, here: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-%22O-A%22-%28Long-Stay%29.html

This page discusses their perception of what an "O-A" Long Stay visa is all about. And while not obvious about stating that an O-A visa can be obtained in Thailand, at least when listing requirements -- it becomes blatently obvious that they're saying as much when they state:

Applicant may submit their [O-A] application at the Royal Thai embassy or Royal Thai Consulate-General in their home/residence country or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located onGovernment Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210, Tel 0-2141-9889.

As far as MFA is concerned (and they're the visa gurus), if you want to stay in Thailand for a year as a retiree, you need to get a Non Immigrant visa. Period. And such a visa issued by MFA has the "O-A" suffix. Apparently what MFA is not aware of (or at least the writer of their regulations) is that when they granted Immigration (about 10 years ago) the authority to issue visas for the purpose of staying in Thailand for a year, that these visas were not identical to MFA's, namely, the "O-A" variety. Instead, for whatever reason, Immigration decided to issue the plain vanilla "O" variety of the Non Imm visa, then follow-up with the one-year extension of stay stamp. Why not just convert to a Non Imm "O-A" visa -- which has a built-in one year stay proviso -- then stamp the passport with a one year permission of stay stamp? Anyway, as we know -- and now running on another thread -- Immigration does refer to their conversion process as issuing a 'retirement visa' -- same as does MFA. And why not? The end result's the same, just a slight difference in process. Heck, if MFA and Immigration are on different frequencies, is it any wonder why newbies on this forum are confused..........?

But, I digress......

MFA loses money when retirees no longer patronize their consulates abroad for a visa. We saw reaction to this a few years back, when MFA disallowed the honorary consulates from issuing Non Immigrant "O-A" visas. Then, they put the damper on obtaining the other kind of visas via mail from the honorary consulates. So, potential retirees started showing up in Thailand, easily converting their visa exempt entries into Non Immigrant visas at their local Immigration office. Hmmmm. MFA apparently went back to their regulations, written when Immigration was granted authority to issue Non Imm visas for the purpose of long stay -- and where it clearly says can be obtained at the Immigration office at Chaengwattana. But, it doesn't say Immigration can do this elsewhere...... And if you make it difficult to do the conversion process, just maybe MFA will see an increase in O-A applications (at $200 a pop, since they're required to be multiple entry) at their consulates. Can't have Immigration getting too much of the visa pie, now can we..... Just like the honoraries got throttled.

You are confusing visas from an embassy or consulate and extensions of stay from immigration.

The statement on the MFA website about getting a OA visa at immigration is a blatant error that has been discussed many times on the forum. Immigration does not do OA visas.

Immigration was doing one year extensions of stay based upon retirement long before the OA visa was available.

All your suppositions are wrong..

Immigration's restrictions on doing a conversion to a non immigrant visa has nothing to do with the MFA. It was to cut down on the opportunity for corruption at local immigration offices that were working with agents to do a fast change to an extension of stay with bogus proof of money in the bank. They did this by changing the approval for getting a non immigrant visa to the division level.

[JimGant]

You are confusing visas from an embassy or consulate and extensions of stay from immigration.

No confusion. MFA dictates visa criteria for entering (or remaining in) Thailand. Immigration determines how long one will be stamped in for -- and normally conforms to the norm per visa (60 days for Tourist, 90 days for Non Immigrant O, 365 days for Non Immigrant O-A, etc.). And Immigration can modify length of stay by -- denying entry to a visa holder, or by granting an extension of stay to lengthen one's permission of stay authorization.

But the key point is -- just looking at one-year retirement stays -- they all hinge upon having obtained a Non Immigrant visa -- either from a Thai consulate abroad -- or from a conversion at Immigration.

Immigration was doing one year extensions of stay based upon retirement long before the OA visa was available.

Maybe so -- I'm not up on all the history here. But, these extensions all eminated from one's Non Imm visa -- which (before Immigration was granted permission to issue such) were issued by MFA abroad. At some juncture, it was determined to streamline matters -- by MFA issuing Non Imm O-A visas -- that provide a one-year entry feature. And allowing Immigration to issue Non Imm visas in-country, upon which they could also allow a one-year stay authorization. This whole mess has now collectively become known as the "retirement visa." But we know that there are two avenues to the one-year retirement stay -- and only the MFA can issue the O-A (retirement visa) abroad -- while Immigration can get you to the same end, via issuing a Non Imm O visa, plus a one-year extension of stay. Not really a 'retirement visa' -- but, yeah, it is effectively.

Immigration's restrictions on doing a conversion to a non immigrant visa has nothing to do with the MFA. It was to cut down on the opportunity for corruption at local immigration offices that were working with agents to do a fast change to an extension of stay with bogus proof of money in the bank. They did this by changing the approval for getting a non immigrant visa to the division level.

We're not talking about "with agents to do a fast change to an extension of stay with bogus proof of money." We're talking about a conversion to a Non Imm visa -- not the next-step extension. Obviously, big Immigration offices, like CM, can handle conversions with no problems, as they have shown. If corruption between Immigration and agents is, indeed, going on (and I'm sure it is), it's certainly at the meatier "extension" arena, not the "conversion" arena (which is probably only 1% of the extension arena). No. moving conversions to Bangkok has more meaning than agents at the (very meek) till.

All your suppositions are wrong..

Maybe not......

[ubonjoe]

Bangkok is as far as I know (and possibly Hat Yai or Korat but not confirmed) is the only immigration office that can process the non immigrant visa application based upon qualifying for a retirement extension.

A few months ago immigration headquarters took away the ability to do non immigrant visas from the local immigration offices (Pattaya, Hua Hin, Phuket and others). Only offices located where the regional immigration divisions are located could do the visas. Last month Chiang Mai (division 5) stopped doing them.

There were agents offering and doing a retirement extension in 3 days to those with tourist visa and visa exempt entries. That meant that they were getting a 90 day non immigrant visa entry and one year extension in those 3 days. No 60 day wait after applying for the non immigrant visa entry.

[JimGant]

There were agents offering and doing a retirement extension in 3 days to those with tourist visa and visa exempt entries. That meant that they were getting a 90 day non immigrant visa entry and one year extension in those 3 days. No 60 day wait after applying for the non immigrant visa entry.

I didn't realize that was a bad thing... We used to see this frequently at the seaside Immigration offices, particularly Jomtien. If the applicant for a conversion/extension had an income letter -- or had proof of a bank account that had aged at least 60 days -- conversion and the one-year extension often occured during the same office visit. If required aging of a bank account is not an issue, why wait 60 days? Instead, grant the one-year extension during the same visit as the conversion. After all, Immigration isn't paid by the number of visits -- only by the functions they perform. And eliminating unnecessary visits certainly could go a long way in reducing the crowding we're seeing at some Immigration offices, particularly CM.

And if aging of a bank account is not an issue, what's so magical about a 60 day waiting period? After all, someone with an O-A visa is granted instant one-year stay status the moment he sets foot into Thailand. What's different about him? Ah, he's had a medical and criminal background check. So, the 60 day wait period after conversion is -- to make sure the applicant doesn't die of elephantitis, and/or doesn't get arrrested? So, then, Immigration should require a medical and criminal check to grant an in-country Non Imm visa. After all, per the MFA website previously referenced, this is what MFA believes actually happens during Immigration conversions.

[ubonjoe]

The ones getting the 3 day deal were doing them based upon money in the bank. Go back and read my post where I wrote "bogus proof of money in the bank",

The one step visa to an extension had already been stopped before the the changes. It could be done if you had the money in the bank for 60 days already or were using the income or combination method.

The 60 days come from most immigration offices not allowing you do an extension unless you were in the last 30 days (some now allow 45 days) of your entry.

[JimGant]

The ones getting the 3 day deal were doing them based upon money in the bank. Go back and read my post where I wrote "bogus proof of money in the bank",

Simple enough to eliminate the 3 day deal -- by absolutely requiring a 60 day waiting period before the extension step is allowed. No reason to now make all conversions take place in Bangkok.

But if crook agents are creating ficticious bank accounts -- or maybe real bank accounts, but with a ficticious aging associated -- why would they concentrate on such a small population as folks converting in-country to Non Imm visas? The big money would seemingly be with folks renewing their annual extensions of stay, but who don't have an 800k bank account, and/or one that has aged for 90 days.

I guess I just don't see why folks converting to Non Imm visas, then extending, are so much more vulnerable to crook agents than the mass of folks doing their annual extension renewals......? After all, the hanky panky of ficticious banking documents, vis-a-vis the Immigration officer, would be samo samo whether this is a conversion/extension process -- or an annual renewal process.....

And, out of curiosity, just how does this work, in your estimation? The agent has phony passbooks and bank letters that he presents to Immigration? With maybe an associated wink and a smile?