Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[catsanddogs]

Some media coverage on the Ware brothers.

A spokesman for the Royal Thai police said on Wednesday that Christopher and James Ware, who are believed to have spent time with David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on Koh Tao in the days before the pair were killed, had been questioned about the deaths, along with 11 Burmese suspects.

Christopher Ware, who some reports suggested shared a room with Miller, was previously questioned by police before being cleared. He and his brother were stopped at Bangkok International airport as they reportedly prepared to leave the country.

Guardian 17^th September

…………………………………………………

Police investigating the murders have questioned two British brothers and detained 11 Burmese people.

Officers previously reported that they had 'strong evidence' linking the Burmese workers to the deaths of Miller and Witheridge, after blood stains were found on the clothes of some of the migrants

“We also have two British suspects but they have not been detained. We cannot rule them out. They were close friends and knew all about the victims.”

- Police Colonel Kissana

DNA was taken from them and from three foreigners, including two brothers from Jersey, but police revealed that neither DNA found on Ms Witheridge's body, nor that on a cigarette butt, matched any of the suspects.

Brothers Christopher and James Ware were stopped at Bangkok International Airport as they prepared to leave the country and are now said to be in "police care", but have not formally been named as suspects.

Christopher Ware was previously questioned on Monday, shortly after the bodies were found, after officers became concerned about an injury to his arm. He was later released.

According to reports, the brothers shared a room with Mr Miller, who also came from Jersey.

Ibtimes Sept 17

………………………………………….

The Ware brothers, believed to be from Jersey, were stopped at Bangkok International Airport as they prepared to leave the country.

Police earlier said they were "possible suspects" but did not arrest them. Formally making people suspects is an official judicial process in Thailand.

The BBC understands they have now been told they can leave Thailand.

BBC 18 September

…………………………..

THAI police are preparing to arrest a British man over the brutal murder of his close friend and another female backpacker on an island beach popular with Australian tourists.

Christopher Alan Ware was stopped at Bangkok’s main airport with his brother James on Wednesday for more questioning on the slayings of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge at Koh Tao — a day after being told by police he could leave the island.

However news of the brothers’ detainment comes as police reportedly revealed that DNA found on Ms Witheridge’s body does not match any of the 12 suspects.

Officers previously said they had “strong evidence” linking six Burmese migrant labourers to the murders.

Investigators took DNA from nine migrant workers and three foreigners — including the Ware brothers — believing there was more than one attacker and murder weapon.

Police also said that DNA traces from suspects could not be found on Mr Miller’s body.

Initial forensic tests were carried out on the victims late Wednesday, pointing to a more complicated struggle before they were hacked to death with a garden hoe, typically used by beachside bars to dig holes for fires on the main beach.

In a further complication, the local police chief suggested there may be a bisexual element to the relationships and crime.

There is evidence both victims had sex before they died, or were interfered with after death, although it is not known with whom and if it was consensual.

News.com.au

…………………………………..

Chris Ware and his brother James were close friends of tragic backpacker David Miller and have agreed to stay in Thailand until police get the results of DNA tests

Two brothers are being questioned over the murders of backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller.

Chris and James Ware – close friends of David – have agreed not to leave Thailand until police get the results of DNA tests.

They are in a hotel near Bangkok airport after leaving the island of Ko hTao and trying to catch a flight back to the UK.

Thai police said the brothers, from Jersey in the Channel Islands like David, had not been arrested but were “in police care” and were “possible suspects”. Detectives were expected to quiz them again.

Colonel Ruangthong said: “I think jealousy is the key to this crime.”

Referring to the brutal nature of the attack, he added: “Why, why, why were they hit so hard? It was bad, very bad.”

It is understood the Ware brothers left Koh Tao by boat shortly after the killings and headed to Bangkok.

17^th Sept Mirror

………………………….

The British brothers being questioned, who are believed to be from Jersey, were stopped at Bangkok International Airport as they prepared to leave the country, BBC south-east Asia correspondent Jonathan Head said. Christopher Ware was previously questioned on Monday shortly after the bodies were found but was then released. James Ware had already left Koh Tao so he was not questioned at that time.

17^th Dec BBC

…………………………….

Christopher Ware and his brother James, two Britons who had been staying with Mr Miller on the island, were detained by police in Bangkok as they tried to leave the country and questioned.

However, that line of inquiry appears to have faltered after DNA tests performed on samples from the victims' bodies failed to provide any link to Christopher Ware, who is a childhood friend of Mr Miller.

On Thursday morning police said they were also close to ruling out the involvement of James Ware who they said had left the island one day before the crime.

"We don't think he is a suspect because he left the island before the incident happened," Kiattipong Khawsamang, the regional police chief leading the investigation, told reporters.

18^th Sept Telegraph

………………..

A lawyer for the suspects has urged friends of the victims to come forward with information. Nakhon Chompuchat said the victims' friends "should know many things" about what happened.

Dec 4^th the week.co.uk

Questions I have about the above –

Why was Christopher Ware bought back (along with James) from Bangkok airport into police care for a second round of questioning?

Why did James Ware leave the ‘night before the murders? Did he have an argument with someone/? Was he scared away? Did he only ever plan to stay until the night of 14^th ? The ‘night before the murders’ covers many hours up until midnight.. What time did he leave and how?

The telegraph report above says the police didn’t think James Ware a suspect because he had left the island before the incident happened.

The Ware brothers would have possibly made many calls from their phones in order to meet up at Bangkok airport. I wonder if the police checked their phones. Also wonder if one of the Ware brothers took the picture of the alleged altercation in the bar. Maybe James Ware hence his swift departure.

Just my thoughts prompted by looking at stuff again and again.

And here are the Ware brothers - Christopher at the front and James behind him. Photo could be of the evening of the 14th - David is wearing the same tee shirt but different shorts. Christopher is wearing shorts much like the ones David was wearing in the CCTV footage of 14th and 15th Sept.

Doc21.docx

[catsanddogs]

Great stuff jimmy.

At 01:26 am 15/9/14 (6.33 into the vid posted) the couple who are standing at the food stall look round in the direction David is approaching as if something has caught their attention (before David comes into view) -

man and woman turning at food stall.docx

A couple then approach the food stall - the man looks like he might be saying what he wants to the vendor, and the woman drinks water from a bottle -

Doc17.docx

The man looks like it could be Chris Ware -

Doc18.docx

The woman drinking water looks like it could be one of Hannah's friends (The hair style and colour/strapless top/dress) -

Doc18.docx

The other couple who were at the food stand stop looking round after David has passed by and the other couple (man white tee shirt and woman drinking water) are standing next to them. No one else comes into shot following David that I can see. This is all happening at around half one in the morning - a couple of hours before the murder. And then at 7.09 into the video (as jimmy points) out something happens to arouse a group of people and make them stare at whatever is going on behind David as he walks towards them. I can't screenshot that right now as computer keeps mucking up. Anyone else think those two could be Chris Ware and one of Hannah's friends?

Sorry put double pic of Chris Ware up and don't know how to change it. The link at the end of the post is the one of Hannah's friend.

cats and dogs do you know how to save the stills from video

Yes. Had to employ a child to show me how.

[loonodingle]

Great stuff jimmy.

At 01:26 am 15/9/14 (6.33 into the vid posted) the couple who are standing at the food stall look round in the direction David is approaching as if something has caught their attention (before David comes into view) -

man and woman turning at food stall.docx

A couple then approach the food stall - the man looks like he might be saying what he wants to the vendor, and the woman drinks water from a bottle -

Doc17.docx

The man looks like it could be Chris Ware -

Doc18.docx

The woman drinking water looks like it could be one of Hannah's friends (The hair style and colour/strapless top/dress) -

Doc18.docx

The other couple who were at the food stand stop looking round after David has passed by and the other couple (man white tee shirt and woman drinking water) are standing next to them. No one else comes into shot following David that I can see. This is all happening at around half one in the morning - a couple of hours before the murder. And then at 7.09 into the video (as jimmy points) out something happens to arouse a group of people and make them stare at whatever is going on behind David as he walks towards them. I can't screenshot that right now as computer keeps mucking up. Anyone else think those two could be Chris Ware and one of Hannah's friends?

Sorry put double pic of Chris Ware up and don't know how to change it. The link at the end of the post is the one of Hannah's friend.

cats and dogs do you know how to save the stills from video

Yes. Had to employ a child to show me how.

LOL same here but here is easy follow this.

Hi M8

can I give you a tip on how to save the stills easy a large format

Download VLC player. if you don't have it already

http://www.videolan.org/index.html

then follow the pictures.

then u can happily click away saving as many clips as you like without any problem. 1 sec and u have the still image saved in pictures.

you can see the destination folder by looking at the notice as you click it tells you where its saved.

no more paste and copy a page.

you have good images you can zoom in on.

I hope this helps.

My son showed me by the way lol seriously

[loonodingle]

inst 1.jpginst 2.jpginst 3.jpg

Great stuff jimmy.

At 01:26 am 15/9/14 (6.33 into the vid posted) the couple who are standing at the food stall look round in the direction David is approaching as if something has caught their attention (before David comes into view) -

man and woman turning at food stall.docx

A couple then approach the food stall - the man looks like he might be saying what he wants to the vendor, and the woman drinks water from a bottle -

Doc17.docx

The man looks like it could be Chris Ware -

Doc18.docx

The woman drinking water looks like it could be one of Hannah's friends (The hair style and colour/strapless top/dress) -

Doc18.docx

The other couple who were at the food stand stop looking round after David has passed by and the other couple (man white tee shirt and woman drinking water) are standing next to them. No one else comes into shot following David that I can see. This is all happening at around half one in the morning - a couple of hours before the murder. And then at 7.09 into the video (as jimmy points) out something happens to arouse a group of people and make them stare at whatever is going on behind David as he walks towards them. I can't screenshot that right now as computer keeps mucking up. Anyone else think those two could be Chris Ware and one of Hannah's friends?

Sorry put double pic of Chris Ware up and don't know how to change it. The link at the end of the post is the one of Hannah's friend.

cats and dogs do you know how to save the stills from video

Yes. Had to employ a child to show me how.

LOL same here but here is easy follow this.

Hi M8

can I give you a tip on how to save the stills easy a large format

Download VLC player. if you don't have it already

http://www.videolan.org/index.html

then follow the pictures.

then u can happily click away saving as many clips as you like without any problem. 1 sec and u have the still image saved in pictures.

you can see the destination folder by looking at the notice as you click it tells you where its saved.

no more paste and copy a page.

you have good images you can zoom in on.

I hope this helps.

My son showed me by the way lol seriously

[greenchair]

Tester.

[greenchair]

Please be patient.I am learning.

[greenchair]

Oops.ok try again

[greenchair]

Think I got it. One more time.

[greenchair]

Think I got it. One more time.

[boomerangutang]

jimmybkk, on 08 Jan 2015 - 16:41, said:

You realize that timestamps on CCTV's are not synchronized, right?

Thais are generally not precise on time. I've seen 'em put times in on computers or phones. It's often approximate, to the nearest few minutes.

Here's the video that some of the stills were taken from and there's a few things interesting here.

Thanks for pointing those things out. I concur that around 7:13, most of the small crowd are looking back to where David walked from, as if there may have been something going on. However, stuff like that will have no bearing on a trial. Also; it's a reminder of what a sizeable fellow David was. His shoulders are wide and strong. Not an easy guy to overpower, unless blindsided. And that fits with the scenario: it was just before dawn, still dark, David comes to rescue Hannah (there surely must have been some pleas from her). He's attacked from the front by a left hander, or blindsided from the back by a right-hander (most of David's blade wounds were on the right side of his neck). He may have expected fists, but was unpleasantly surprised by the fists bearing a shallow sharp blade (certainly not a blunt/cement-encrusted garden hoe). By then, sadly, it was too late for him.

In my view, that's a big reason why the Brit Coroner is stalling. She can explain-away her 10 month stall with all sorts of legalese, but the real reason is: Findings by the Brit Coroner will clash with findings by Thai officials. Brits don't particularly want that to happen, but Thai officials, for their part, are as spooked as a gang of back-alley dogs - that it will happen. Brit findings (which will prove to be much closer to the truth than Thai findings) will blow the prosecutions' case out of the water. We, who are seeking truth and justice, should put pressure on the Brit Coroner to not be sheepish, and instead publish her Office's findings a.s.a.p. (She promised Jan. 6, but now we're at the 9th).

[jimmybkk]

I was thinking about those trousers that were found in David and Chris Ware's room. Apparently the police tested them and they came back negative for traces of blood, and instead the stains were from "some other chemical substance..." I've been trying to figure out what that other substance could possibly be and why the police would not say what it is.

Then I stumbled across something very interesting:

Apparently there are 2 basic types of bleach found in household cleaning products. The more common type is chlorine-based, and if you soak a bloodstained article of clothing in a chlorine bleach solution it will visually remove the bloodstain but does not remove traces of hemoglobin, and so if the police do a standard test for the presence of blood using luminol or phenolphthalein there will still be traces of hemoglobin which I believe will shine in the presence of a UV light,

The other type of bleach is what they call an oxygen bleach, which uses an oxidizing agent such as hydrogen peroxide, and this type of bleach removes all traces of hemoglobin however the stain on the clothing will still be visible, although somewhat faded:

"To properly assess whether bleach could fully remove blood, researchers soaked some bloodstained clothing in oxygen bleach for a couple of hours. After the bleaching, stains did look faded, although they were still somewhat noticeable. On the other hand, even though there was some visible marking, luminol and phenolphthalein didn't detect the haemoglobin on the clothing."

"The results are worrying because a stain on clothing could be assumed to occur from something else when a test shows up negative for haemoglobin. Eventually, valuable evidence could ultimately be dismissed, which then affects the entire criminal investigation and trial proceedings. Forensics experts will not examine and check for important DNA Evidence until they have initially found an appropriately identified blood sample."

(Source: http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html)

So I guess that would mean that a pair of heavily bloodstained trousers, in the space of only a couple of hours in a oxygen bleach solution, could end up looking something like this:

I wonder if the DNA from the blood would still be present after bleaching. I also wonder where those trousers may be now...

In a previous post AleG managed to convince me that the trousers had not been planted, but even if he's wrong, how the hell could the Burmese lads get access to David and Chris' room? This looks like a smoking gun to me...

I think someone needs to be having a chat with this young man:

I read early reports saying that 2 of their friends confirmed these were the trousers that Chris Ware was wearing that night. In the CCTV footage he is seen wearing shorts, but then I think I read that he went back to the room with David, then David said he was going out to buy a pack of smokes and actually went looking for Hannah at AC Bar. It would not surprise me to learn that when David didn't come back Chris went out looking for him - I wonder what he wore when/if he went out a second time...

Was he not the guy that was reported as being gay...?

[boomerangutang]

Shorts found in David's and Chris' room? Are those the pair which were thought, initially, to have blood, and then claimed, shortly after, to be just mud stained/splattered? Any questionable clothes, including an alleged flip-flop, should be thoroughly investigated. Not so much by Thai cops (who are assigned to spearhead the investigation), because Thai cops aren't trained to conduct serious crime investigations. They're good at picking things up off the ground, and making assumptions. What's needed, however, are scientifically-minded/trained specialists. Thai cops are to scientific processes what swans are to riding bicycles.

One glaring oddity in the investigation of this case (among many), is that NO BLOODY GARMENTS (and related items; shoes, packs, etc) were found outside the immediate crime scene. Even the hoe appears not to have been tested competently. And there was clothing at the crime scene: the dark shorts, and probably other items. We've heard nothing from officialdom about them. Apparently, they're as clean as a retail item wrapped in plastic, bought off a shelf. Can Thai officials be any more inept?!? You could take some high schoolers, who'd read a detective novel, and put them on the scene of the crime, .....and they'd do a better job than Thai officials. Even the recreation would have been more realistic.

[Chetzee]

I have been following this from the beginning and the latest chain of posts here are interesting. Whoever you guys are, keep going as you could be getting closer to the truth I hope. Can I just add an observation. The different cctv images are really frustrating to put together. It looks like Mr W who went home early was wearing the other Mr W top (the one on back of bike). However these latest pics of guy in dark top do not look like Mr W who left early. The hairstyle looks different.

i agree , different hair . W has a larger looking head . is really quite short , not this like the lithe looking lad in the other picture .

i thought it was interesting that even on their day off , 2 of the b3 chose to wear Staff T shirts , perhaps it tells more about their financial status that their fashion sense .

But if Muang was off to see his girlfriend , why not change your shirt , brush your hair , smarten up . Even if that meant borrowing your mates new black shirt .

That might then leave your mate without a shirt , ................................ running man etc ?

[loonodingle]

I was thinking about those trousers that were found in David and Chris Ware's room. Apparently the police tested them and they came back negative for traces of blood, and instead the stains were from "some other chemical substance..." I've been trying to figure out what that other substance could possibly be and why the police would not say what it is.

Then I stumbled across something very interesting:

Apparently there are 2 basic types of bleach found in household cleaning products. The more common type is chlorine-based, and if you soak a bloodstained article of clothing in a chlorine bleach solution it will visually remove the bloodstain but does not remove traces of hemoglobin, and so if the police do a standard test for the presence of blood using luminol or phenolphthalein there will still be traces of hemoglobin which I believe will shine in the presence of a UV light,

The other type of bleach is what they call an oxygen bleach, which uses an oxidizing agent such as hydrogen peroxide, and this type of bleach removes all traces of hemoglobin however the stain on the clothing will still be visible, although somewhat faded:

"To properly assess whether bleach could fully remove blood, researchers soaked some bloodstained clothing in oxygen bleach for a couple of hours. After the bleaching, stains did look faded, although they were still somewhat noticeable. On the other hand, even though there was some visible marking, luminol and phenolphthalein didn't detect the haemoglobin on the clothing."

"The results are worrying because a stain on clothing could be assumed to occur from something else when a test shows up negative for haemoglobin. Eventually, valuable evidence could ultimately be dismissed, which then affects the entire criminal investigation and trial proceedings. Forensics experts will not examine and check for important DNA Evidence until they have initially found an appropriately identified blood sample."

(Source: http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html)

So I guess that would mean that a pair of heavily bloodstained trousers, in the space of only a couple of hours in a oxygen bleach solution, could end up looking something like this:

Trousers.jpg

I wonder if the DNA from the blood would still be present after bleaching. I also wonder where those trousers may be now...

In a previous post AleG managed to convince me that the trousers had not been planted, but even if he's wrong, how the hell could the Burmese lads get access to David and Chris' room? This looks like a smoking gun to me...

I think someone needs to be having a chat with this young man:

Chris Ware.jpg

I read early reports saying that 2 of their friends confirmed these were the trousers that Chris Ware was wearing that night. In the CCTV footage he is seen wearing shorts, but then I think I read that he went back to the room with David, then David said he was going out to buy a pack of smokes and actually went looking for Hannah at AC Bar. It would not surprise me to learn that when David didn't come back Chris went out looking for him - I wonder what he wore when/if he went out a second time...

Was he not the guy that was reported as being gay...?

I think you are way of mark here. If that was blood they would know. Do you honestly think after 3 Asian DNA is found on Hannah that you can peddled this. The slightest chance of him being Involved and they would have had him. UNLIKE Sean McAnna who left the island with a fanfare and pictures with the police chief.

[loonodingle]

The Biggest problem is the AC Will not hand over the CCTV. They left along the beach. IMHO they were followed along the beach and attacked. So No more CCTV. Yes people will be in CCTV in the main thoroughfare it doesn't make them guilty or a witness to what happened after.

There was reports in the immediate aftermath. The speedboat. The father saying his son had to leave to do a test so in a hurry. His father didn't even realise probably the gravity of the case. Then it all panned out what a MAJOR disaster it was for the tourism. Gen Panya has implicated the owners family from CCTV. The fathers come out fighting. Some it was on a helicopter down there with a replacement chief and then a major change in tact. Do you remember they stated a Thai person was not capable of this crime. And if you wear bikinis what do you expect. In fact it's all our fault for going to Thailand hey...

[AleG]

I was thinking about those trousers that were found in David and Chris Ware's room. Apparently the police tested them and they came back negative for traces of blood, and instead the stains were from "some other chemical substance..." I've been trying to figure out what that other substance could possibly be and why the police would not say what it is.

Then I stumbled across something very interesting:

Apparently there are 2 basic types of bleach found in household cleaning products. The more common type is chlorine-based, and if you soak a bloodstained article of clothing in a chlorine bleach solution it will visually remove the bloodstain but does not remove traces of hemoglobin, and so if the police do a standard test for the presence of blood using luminol or phenolphthalein there will still be traces of hemoglobin which I believe will shine in the presence of a UV light,

The other type of bleach is what they call an oxygen bleach, which uses an oxidizing agent such as hydrogen peroxide, and this type of bleach removes all traces of hemoglobin however the stain on the clothing will still be visible, although somewhat faded:

"To properly assess whether bleach could fully remove blood, researchers soaked some bloodstained clothing in oxygen bleach for a couple of hours. After the bleaching, stains did look faded, although they were still somewhat noticeable. On the other hand, even though there was some visible marking, luminol and phenolphthalein didn't detect the haemoglobin on the clothing."

"The results are worrying because a stain on clothing could be assumed to occur from something else when a test shows up negative for haemoglobin. Eventually, valuable evidence could ultimately be dismissed, which then affects the entire criminal investigation and trial proceedings. Forensics experts will not examine and check for important DNA Evidence until they have initially found an appropriately identified blood sample."

(Source: http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html)

So I guess that would mean that a pair of heavily bloodstained trousers, in the space of only a couple of hours in a oxygen bleach solution, could end up looking something like this:

Trousers.jpg

I wonder if the DNA from the blood would still be present after bleaching. I also wonder where those trousers may be now...

In a previous post AleG managed to convince me that the trousers had not been planted, but even if he's wrong, how the hell could the Burmese lads get access to David and Chris' room? This looks like a smoking gun to me...

I think someone needs to be having a chat with this young man:

Chris Ware.jpg

I read early reports saying that 2 of their friends confirmed these were the trousers that Chris Ware was wearing that night. In the CCTV footage he is seen wearing shorts, but then I think I read that he went back to the room with David, then David said he was going out to buy a pack of smokes and actually went looking for Hannah at AC Bar. It would not surprise me to learn that when David didn't come back Chris went out looking for him - I wonder what he wore when/if he went out a second time...

Was he not the guy that was reported as being gay...?

"In a previous post AleG managed to convince me that the trousers had not been planted, but even if he's wrong, how the hell could the Burmese lads get access to David and Chris' room? This looks like a smoking gun to me..."

What on Earth gave you the idea that the Burmese may had entered Miller/Ware's room? What is a smoking gun? your groundless speculations?

[AleG]

The Biggest problem is the AC Will not hand over the CCTV. They left along the beach. IMHO they were followed along the beach and attacked. So No more CCTV. Yes people will be in CCTV in the main thoroughfare it doesn't make them guilty or a witness to what happened after.

There was reports in the immediate aftermath. The speedboat. The father saying his son had to leave to do a test so in a hurry. His father didn't even realise probably the gravity of the case. Then it all panned out what a MAJOR disaster it was for the tourism. Gen Panya has implicated the owners family from CCTV. The fathers come out fighting. Some it was on a helicopter down there with a replacement chief and then a major change in tact. Do you remember they stated a Thai person was not capable of this crime. And if you wear bikinis what do you expect. In fact it's all our fault for going to Thailand hey...

The police was already on the trail of the three Burmese before Panya's transfer... but don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

[JLCrab]

From Post #733: This looks like a smoking gun to me...

From October 1, 2014 Norwich Evening News:

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from “severe head wounds”.

No mention of any gun, smoking or otherwise.

[catsanddogs]

Published yesterday - (English subtitles)

Burmese were arrested, beaten, tortured. The police and the interpreter.

Edited January 9, 2015 by catsanddogs

[greenchair]

From Post #733: This looks like a smoking gun to me...

From October 1, 2014 Norwich Evening News:

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from severe head wounds.

No mention of any gun, smoking or otherwise.

Well you answered your own point. There was no mention of a gun nor a hoe or any weapon. So she might have head injury from a gun or a hard object or a hoe.

The coroner did not say.

[greenchair]

Published yesterday - (English subtitles)

.

I wish they would headline we did not do it more often. It often sounds to me like. We are not able to defend our innocence, so we will shift blame to the shortfalls of the police. I would be screaming.

I am innocent everyday til someone listened

[JLCrab]

From Post #733: This looks like a smoking gun to me...

From October 1, 2014 Norwich Evening News:

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from severe head wounds.

No mention of any gun, smoking or otherwise.

Well you answered your own point. There was no mention of a gun nor a hoe or any weapon. So she might have head injury from a gun or a hard object or a hoe.

The coroner did not say.

25 minutes -- good work Nancy Drew.

Edited January 9, 2015 by JLCrab

[catsanddogs]

Wonder why Zaw nudged Win at 1.51 into this video. Win lowers his eyes after the nudge.

[greenchair]

From Post #733: This looks like a smoking gun to me...

From October 1, 2014 Norwich Evening News:

Speaking at the inquest, senior coroner Jacqueline Lake said Miss Witheridge had been indentified using DNA taken from her parents - Tony and Susan Witheridge.

Post-mortem examinations revealed that Ms Witheridge died from severe head wounds.

No mention of any gun, smoking or otherwise.

Well you answered your own point. There was no mention of a gun nor a hoe or any weapon. So she might have head injury from a gun or a hard object or a hoe.

The coroner did not say.

25 minutes -- good work Nancy Drew.

I will be faster next time sherlock.

[JLCrab]

Thanks -- what I know about murder trials if anything comes from watching the OJ Simpson trial 20 years ago. No matter which side brought up any evidence from their expert witnesses, there was always the other side's expert witnesses to disagree. So once on this Koh Tao case I realized that a good deal of the 'evidence' was fabricated, I decided to sit back and now I am just amused to read some of the stuff posted on here by a few individuals as to who was where when and couldn't have been elsewhere. The trial starts next summer: maybe I'll start to pay any real attention then.

Edited January 9, 2015 by JLCrab

[boomerangutang]

The police was already on the trail of the three Burmese before Panya's transfer... but don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

In a sense you're right. From the get-go, Thai officials have wanted to nail Burmese or, 2nd best was farang. Not Thai, and certainly not anyone connected to the headman (except his Burmese employees). Panya (the initial head cop) was doing a lukewarm job of leading the investigation. However, when it became clear he wasn't shielding the Headman's people (and not fingering any Burmese), he was abruptly pulled from the position as top dog. In other countries, including Thailand, if a top official gets started on an important assignment, he/she won't be pulled abruptly away unless that person is doing something very wrong. In this case, the initial top cop was focusing on the Headman's people as prime suspects - a complete no-no. It didn't help that a taxi driver popped up and accused cops of offering to pay Bt.300k to be a false witness, and knocking him around when he refused.

As for 'police already on the trail of the three Burmese' ....the truth is; police had DNA-tested hundreds of Burmese migrants prior, and claimed publicly that "all had been cleared." It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch. So, by them getting cleared, and then 'matched' a week later, is further evidence (if any were needed) of a frame-up, and a sloppy one, at that. Similar to the planted phone or the so-called investigation in general, Thai officials aren't even adept at framing up some Burmese migrants.

In the old days, such ruses were much easier to implement. Now, with pesky social media ("Let's sue them all !!") it's more difficult to pull the wool over hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears. Even so, the prosecution only needs to convince one or two judges - who are paid by the same people who pay the cops/officials/prosecution, and who know who wields political/military power in Thailand. Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up, I give the Burmese scapegoats a 50/50 chance of getting acquitted.

[JLCrab]

It could also end up just like the OJ Simpson case where he almost certainly did it but got off anyway.

Andy Hall mentioned the day of the pre-lim that the 2 flashed their 'innocent smiles' before heading back the to the jail. The same phrase -- innocent smile -- was often used for the US serial killer Ted Bundy.

Edited January 9, 2015 by JLCrab

[AleG]

The police was already on the trail of the three Burmese before Panya's transfer... but don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

In a sense you're right. From the get-go, Thai officials have wanted to nail Burmese or, 2nd best was farang. Not Thai, and certainly not anyone connected to the headman (except his Burmese employees). Panya (the initial head cop) was doing a lukewarm job of leading the investigation. However, when it became clear he wasn't shielding the Headman's people (and not fingering any Burmese), he was abruptly pulled from the position as top dog. In other countries, including Thailand, if a top official gets started on an important assignment, he/she won't be pulled abruptly away unless that person is doing something very wrong. In this case, the initial top cop was focusing on the Headman's people as prime suspects - a complete no-no. It didn't help that a taxi driver popped up and accused cops of offering to pay Bt.300k to be a false witness, and knocking him around when he refused.

As for 'police already on the trail of the three Burmese' ....the truth is; police had DNA-tested hundreds of Burmese migrants prior, and claimed publicly that "all had been cleared." It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch. So, by them getting cleared, and then 'matched' a week later, is further evidence (if any were needed) of a frame-up, and a sloppy one, at that. Similar to the planted phone or the so-called investigation in general, Thai officials aren't even adept at framing up some Burmese migrants.

In the old days, such ruses were much easier to implement. Now, with pesky social media ("Let's sue them all !!") it's more difficult to pull the wool over hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears. Even so, the prosecution only needs to convince one or two judges - who are paid by the same people who pay the cops/officials/prosecution, and who know who wields political/military power in Thailand. Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up, I give the Burmese scapegoats a 50/50 chance of getting acquitted.

As usual, you make things up to cling to a narrative not supported by facts.

Your first paragraph is nothing but self serving make believe, easily disproven by facts such as Thais being in the list of suspects at some time or another, Panya's transfer being scheduled since before the murders, the three Burmese being suspects since before the change in the investigation leadership, etc, etc...

This is false: "It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch."

This is false too: "Similar to the planted phone"

This too is false: "Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up" As I explained to you many times, speculation is not evidence.

Before you talk about people pulling the wool over someones eyes, try some honesty in your arguments.

[stephen terry]

The police was already on the trail of the three Burmese before Panya's transfer... but don't let facts get on the way of a good conspiracy.

In a sense you're right. From the get-go, Thai officials have wanted to nail Burmese or, 2nd best was farang. Not Thai, and certainly not anyone connected to the headman (except his Burmese employees). Panya (the initial head cop) was doing a lukewarm job of leading the investigation. However, when it became clear he wasn't shielding the Headman's people (and not fingering any Burmese), he was abruptly pulled from the position as top dog. In other countries, including Thailand, if a top official gets started on an important assignment, he/she won't be pulled abruptly away unless that person is doing something very wrong. In this case, the initial top cop was focusing on the Headman's people as prime suspects - a complete no-no. It didn't help that a taxi driver popped up and accused cops of offering to pay Bt.300k to be a false witness, and knocking him around when he refused.

As for 'police already on the trail of the three Burmese' ....the truth is; police had DNA-tested hundreds of Burmese migrants prior, and claimed publicly that "all had been cleared." It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch. So, by them getting cleared, and then 'matched' a week later, is further evidence (if any were needed) of a frame-up, and a sloppy one, at that. Similar to the planted phone or the so-called investigation in general, Thai officials aren't even adept at framing up some Burmese migrants.

In the old days, such ruses were much easier to implement. Now, with pesky social media ("Let's sue them all !!") it's more difficult to pull the wool over hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears. Even so, the prosecution only needs to convince one or two judges - who are paid by the same people who pay the cops/officials/prosecution, and who know who wields political/military power in Thailand. Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up, I give the Burmese scapegoats a 50/50 chance of getting acquitted.

As usual, you make things up to cling to a narrative not supported by facts.

Your first paragraph is nothing but self serving make believe, easily disproven by facts such as Thais being in the list of suspects at some time or another, Panya's transfer being scheduled since before the murders, the three Burmese being suspects since before the change in the investigation leadership, etc, etc...

This is false: "It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch."

This is false too: "Similar to the planted phone"

This too is false: "Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up" As I explained to you many times, speculation is not evidence.

Before you talk about people pulling the wool over someones eyes, try some honesty in your arguments.

Actually, it's not false. Sorry to rain on your parade. And before you answer, prove it, buster, <deleted>

Edited January 9, 2015 by CharlieH

[AleG]

As usual, you make things up to cling to a narrative not supported by facts.

Your first paragraph is nothing but self serving make believe, easily disproven by facts such as Thais being in the list of suspects at some time or another, Panya's transfer being scheduled since before the murders, the three Burmese being suspects since before the change in the investigation leadership, etc, etc...

This is false: "It's certain that the 3 scapegoats were in that first batch."

This is false too: "Similar to the planted phone"

This too is false: "Even with so much evidence showing a blatant frame-up" As I explained to you many times, speculation is not evidence.

Before you talk about people pulling the wool over someones eyes, try some honesty in your arguments.

Actually, it's not false. Sorry to rain on your parade. And before you answer, prove it, buster or <deleted>

What part is not false?

I have already debunked those claims repeatedly, the same people keep bringing them up; how about for a change you ask Boomerangutang to prove any of his claims?