AirAsia flight QZ8501: Pilot was one of military academy's best

[webfact]

AirAsia pilot was one of military academy's best
The Jakarta Post
Asia News Network


Iriyanto

JAKARTA: -- The pilot of AirAsia Flight 8501, Iriyanto, 53, is described by colleagues and neighbours as a warm figure with an extraordinary performance as a jet-fighter pilot before taking early retirement to join commercial airlines.

Iriyanto started his career as an F-5 and F-16 fighter pilot after graduating from the Adisucipto air force pilot school in Yogyakarta in 1983.

He joined the 14th squadron at Iswahjudi Air Force Base in Madiun, East Java, staying for around 10 years.

"He was one of the best graduates," said former cabinet minister Djoko Suyanto, who once trained Iriyanto, as quoted by Tempo.co.

Adisucipto Air Base commander First Marshal Yadi I Sutanadika deemed Iriyanto a "smart pilot".

"Iriyanto was known as one of the flight leaders on F-5 Tigers, the leading fighter jet in the 1980s," Yadi, who once served with Iriyanto in the 14th squadron, said on Monday, as quoted by Antara news agency.

In the mid-1990s, Iriyanto took early retirement and landed a job with commercial airline Adam Air, which was forced to close in 2008 after a string of accidents.

Iriyanto also served with Merpati Airlines and Sriwijaya Air before joining AirAsia.

AirAsia said Iriyanto had logged a total of 20,537 flying hours, of which 6,053 were logged during his tenure with AirAsia, while the co-pilot, French national Remi Emmanual Plesel, had 2,247 hours.

Iriyanto, born on December 12, 1961, married Widya Sukati Putri before set?tling in Sidoarjo, East Java - an hour's drive from Surabaya in the same province where Flight QZ8501 departed for Singapore on Sunday.

The couple have two children - Angela Anggi Ranastianis, 25, and eight-year-old Arya Galih Gegana.

"Papa, come home, I still need you. Bring back my papa. Papa, please come home. Papa needs to be found. Papa should come home," Angela wrote on her Path page late on Sunday, begging for her father to come home after the aircraft, carrying 162 people, disappeared that morning.

Iriyanto, who has a penchant for classic motorcycles, is a member of the local-big motorcycle club MBC.

Three days before his last flight, he went to Yogyakarta to commemorate the seventh day of the death of his younger brother, Edi, as well as to take a vacation with his family. Edi died from illness.

"The last time I met Mas Ir [iriyanto] was three days ago," said Hendro Kusumo Broto, Iriyanto's cousin, as quoted in Kompas.com on Sunday.

According to Hendro, Iriyanto went to Yogyakarta with his two children, but later left that city for Surabaya to go to work, while his two children stayed in Yogyakarta on vacation.

Iriyanto reportedly was known to his neighbours for active social engagement and was active in the community in Sidoarjo where he lived, serving as a head of the neighbourhood unit for two years.

He "put potted plants on the sidewalks from the main entrance [of the neighbourhood unit] so that it looked green", said Bagianto Djojonegoro, an adviser to the community unit where his residence is located.

According to Bagianto, Iriyanto, who flew about four times a week, often spent his days off with his family and neighbours. The missing pilot was also known for being active in the mosque.

Iriyanto's neighbours gathered and conducted prayers for his safety at his house in Pondok Jati housing complex in Sidoarjo on Sunday evening.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/AirAsia-pilot-was-one-of-military-academys-best-30251022.html

-- The Nation 2014-12-31

[Scott]

Sadly, he has fought his last battle.

[neverdie]

I wonder if this crash will raise any questions about P2F airlines and the stupid rules/laws that allow airlines around the world to employ 'low hour' pilots to form part of a two crew flight deck on commercial passenger flights?

Captain Iriyanto may have been an excellent and well experienced pilot, however, even fantastic pilots make mistakes. I'm not saying that this Captain was responsible for what occurred on THIS OCCASSION, I don't know that at this point, nobody knows exactly what was going on in that flight deck, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. But I will say, during a phase of emergency in a cockpit, it's really benificial to have EXPERIENCED FLIGHT CREW, not one but two of them ,AS A MINIMUM. Of course the more experienced people you have around when one makes a mistake, the greater chance you have of the other people picking up on that mistake.

In years gone by, aircraft commonly use to fly with with a flight crew of three, usually two pilots and a flight engineer. Over the years flight engineers became redundant and most commercial planes out there now fly with two crew. The planes have changed and technology has reduced workload DURING NORMAL OPERATION allowing two pilots to easily fly the aircraft. BUT...

...BUT, when a flight encounters problems and then turns Into an emergency situation, it's very easy for task saturation to overwhelm two pilots, heck it's even possible for these situations to overload a team of pilots, such as the well publicised incident involving the Qantas A380 above Singapore.

Anyway, what I'm trying say (& be brief about it) is that pilots really start to earn their money when things start to go wrong. Even the worlds best pilot with 25,000 to 30,000 hours will really need help when all the holes in the cheese start to line up and the alarms and bells start ringing. These situations are really stressful, stressful beyond what most people understand and often just seconds in time and a few basic decisions and actions may result in the loss of hundreds of lives. Most pilots with barely 2000 hours wouldn't be the guy you would want sitting next to you when and if one of these situations occurs, although I accept there's always exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, that's what you can get with so e of these budget airlines, is low hour pilots with considerably less experience. Again, I'm not saying that's what caused this Air Asia crash but what I am saying is Experience is invaluable during emergencies. I cringe to think what might have occurred in that cockpit leading up to this crash.

What is P2F ? (I hear you say)

P2F, takes these issues to an even lower level. I'm not saying that Air Asia Indonesia has P2F piloting schemes, I'm not sure but there's quite a few budget airlines out there that do.

P2F is where the first officer on the flight has actually paid the airline to have his position on the flight deck. Commonly these P2F pilots sign a contract with an airline where they work with an airline for say 2 years and they pay the airline $70,000 to $100,000 (plus) to obtain the F.O. Position and occupy the first officers seat on the flight deck. These Pilots work unpaid and usually only have their uniforms and lay over accommodation supplied by the airline. In exchange for all this money and time they get to build their flight hours.....obviously with the hope of securing a paid position with either the airline they P2F with or another airline once they've built their hours.

So, it's entirely possible, that with P2F airlines, you may have a Captain with say 6-7000 hours flying the aircraft and his mate in the right hand seat has only several hundred hours, maybe 1000-2000 hours flying experience. I am talking TOTAL flying experience here. YOU WILL NOT find this with airlines like Emirates, Singapore, Qantas <insert airline name>. A 2000 hour pilot will not get a F.O. position with these major airlines.....but the budget airlines rely on these guys.

So it's not just the food, cheaper plane interiors and reduced level of service you get with the low cost carriers but it's also things which IMO are so what very serious, especially when it comes to emergency situations.

Anyway, it's slightly off topic,as there has been no suggestion that P2F has played a part in this Air Asia tragedy.....but I'm Not surprised that a guy with only 2000 hours was in the F.O.'s seat.....I might not be surprised BUT A FEW OF YOU should be worried.

It may be the case where something caused this crash other than the pilots actions and something completely isolated to their respective experience....but the PAX of the world out there should probably reconsider what is important about flying.

There's no sky hooks out there people, when push comes to shove, gravity always wins. Sadly aviation laws arnt protecting the general flying public. The aviation industry has been speeding down a very ugly road for many years now, it's come at a time when planes (apparently) have been made safer through technology but at the same time, certain airlines attempt to cut costs to compete, in order to acheive those low airfares....something has to give.... And the money is saved somewhere. THINK about it.

I could also talk about 'Automation' too but maybe I will save that for another time.

RIP Captain, RIP First Officer and RIP to all your crew and passengers.

Edited December 31, 2014 by neverdie

[Mosha]

I wonder if this crash will raise any questions about P2F airlines and the stupid rules/laws that allow airlines around the world to employ 'low hour' pilots to form part of a two crew flight deck on commercial passenger flights?

Captain Iriyanto may have been an excellent and well experienced pilot, however, even fantastic pilots make mistakes. I'm not saying that this Captain was responsible for what occurred on THIS OCCASSION, I don't know that at this point, nobody knows exactly what was going on in that flight deck, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. But I will say, during a phase of emergency in a cockpit, it's really benificial to have EXPERIENCED FLIGHT CREW, not one but two of them ,AS A MINIMUM. Of course the more experienced people you have around when one makes a mistake, the greater chance you have of the other people picking up on that mistake.

In years gone by, aircraft commonly use to fly with with a flight crew of three, usually two pilots and a flight engineer. Over the years flight engineers became redundant and most commercial planes out there now fly with two crew. The planes have changed and technology has reduced workload DURING NORMAL OPERATION allowing two pilots to easily fly the aircraft. BUT...

...BUT, when a flight encounters problems and then turns Into an emergency situation, it's very easy for task saturation to overwhelm two pilots, heck it's even possible for these situations to overload a team of pilots, such as the well publicised incident involving the Qantas A380 above Singapore.

Anyway, what I'm trying say (& be brief about it) is that pilots really start to earn their money when things start to go wrong. Even the worlds best pilot with 25,000 to 30,000 hours will really need help when all the holes in the cheese start to line up and the alarms and bells start ringing. These situations are really stressful, stressful beyond what most people understand and often just seconds in time and a few basic decisions and actions may result in the loss of hundreds of lives. Most pilots with barely 2000 hours wouldn't be the guy you would want sitting next to you when and if one of these situations occurs, although I accept there's always exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, that's what you can get with so e of these budget airlines, is low hour pilots with considerably less experience. Again, I'm not saying that's what caused this Air Asia crash but what I am saying is Experience is invaluable during emergencies. I cringe to think what might have occurred in that cockpit leading up to this crash.

What is P2F ? (I hear you say)

P2F, takes these issues to an even lower level. I'm not saying that Air Asia Indonesia has P2F piloting schemes, I'm not sure but there's quite a few budget airlines out there that do.

P2F is where the first officer on the flight has actually paid the airline to have his position on the flight deck. Commonly these P2F pilots sign a contract with an airline where they work with an airline for say 2 years and they pay the airline $70,000 to $100,000 (plus) to obtain the F.O. Position and occupy the first officers seat on the flight deck. These Pilots work unpaid and usually only have their uniforms and lay over accommodation supplied by the airline. In exchange for all this money and time they get to build their flight hours.....obviously with the hope of securing a paid position with either the airline they P2F with or another airline once they've built their hours.

So, it's entirely possible, that with P2F airlines, you may have a Captain with say 6-7000 hours flying the aircraft and his mate in the right hand seat has only several hundred hours, maybe 1000-2000 hours flying experience. I am talking TOTAL flying experience here. YOU WILL NOT find this with airlines like Emirates, Singapore, Qantas <insert airline name>. A 2000 hour pilot will not get a F.O. position with these major airlines.....but the budget airlines rely on these guys.

So it's not just the food, cheaper plane interiors and reduced level of service you get with the low cost carriers but it's also things which IMO are so what very serious, especially when it comes to emergency situations.

Anyway, it's slightly off topic,as there has been no suggestion that P2F has played a part in this Air Asia tragedy.....but I'm Not surprised that a guy with only 2000 hours was in the F.O.'s seat.....I might not be surprised BUT A FEW OF YOU should be worried.

It may be the case where something caused this crash other than the pilots actions and something completely isolated to their respective experience....but the PAX of the world out there should probably reconsider what is important about flying.

There's no sky hooks out there people, when push comes to shove, gravity always wins. Sadly aviation laws arnt protecting the general flying public. The aviation industry has been speeding down a very ugly road for many years now, it's come at a time when planes (apparently) have been made safer through technology but at the same time, certain airlines attempt to cut costs to compete, in order to acheive those low airfares....something has to give.... And the money is saved somewhere. THINK about it.

I could also talk about 'Automation' too but maybe I will save that for another time.

RIP Captain, RIP First Officer and RIP to all your crew and passengers.

I have a friend in our FS Group who flies cargo for Cathay Pacific, and what he told us about some Asian carriers makes one wonder about flying them. Korean Air are not the only ones that don't like the pilots actually flying the planes. He said some Chinese airlines actually fine their pilots for a go round.

[neverdie]

^ Mosha. It's long overdue that the aviation industry dirty secrets are brought out in the wash for all to see.

The general flying public need to make informed decisions, not ones just based on price Alone.

Some ppl will not understand.

[mrtoad]

I have a few friends who are Pilots, and a couple of retired pilots - all with the big name carriers. Put it this way, they are appalled at some of the sharp practices that a number of Asian airlines are pulling. I would not fly with any of The Chinese Airlines period, and none of the budget ones either.

Prefer to pay a few extra baht with the more established Airlines such as SQ, Emirates, Cathay, Etihad than chance it with a number of carriers. As far as I know though that Air Asia don't operate P2F, but a number of other low cost carrier in the region certainly do.

[robblok]

I have a few friends who are Pilots, and a couple of retired pilots - all with the big name carriers. Put it this way, they are appalled at some of the sharp practices that a number of Asian airlines are pulling. I would not fly with any of The Chinese Airlines period, and none of the budget ones either.

Prefer to pay a few extra baht with the more established Airlines such as SQ, Emirates, Cathay, Etihad than chance it with a number of carriers. As far as I know though that Air Asia don't operate P2F, but a number of other low cost carrier in the region certainly do.

Look, but that is why we got freedom of choice, personally given the amount of airplanes flying in the sky the amount of accidents are minor. I think I risk more in my car or on my bike in BKK traffic.

Sure there are risks but lets not blow it out of proportion. So if you want to even decrease your risk pay more, I seriously am not worried about air asia and many other airlines.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

Look at how the numbers have been decreasing over the years with more flights each year (i assume)

Edited December 31, 2014 by robblok

[neverdie]

I have a few friends who are Pilots, and a couple of retired pilots - all with the big name carriers. Put it this way, they are appalled at some of the sharp practices that a number of Asian airlines are pulling. I would not fly with any of The Chinese Airlines period, and none of the budget ones either.

Prefer to pay a few extra baht with the more established Airlines such as SQ, Emirates, Cathay, Etihad than chance it with a number of carriers. As far as I know though that Air Asia don't operate P2F, but a number of other low cost carrier in the region certainly do.

Look, but that is why we got freedom of choice, personally given the amount of airplanes flying in the sky the amount of accidents are minor. I think I risk more in my car or on my bike in BKK traffic.

Sure there are risks but lets not blow it out of proportion. So if you want to even decrease your risk pay more, I seriously am not worried about air asia and many other airlines.

Rob,

People make informed decisions everyday. For example, an acquaintance see you standing at the roadside awaiting a taxi. He stops and offers you a ride. You know this person well, he often speeds, drives recklessly and you can smell alcohol on his breath. You knows taxi ride to where you going is in $40 or do you take the risk and get in and go with your careless acquaintance? Of course, if you are smart......you ride the taxi.

The overseas or interstate flight to 'wherever' is a different story. You visit the travel agent or buy online, you look at the airfare ($), you look at flight times, departure points, is the flight direct ? ....the amount of luggage you are allowed and so forth. So e might even go off if they like the colour of the planes and or sexiness of the flight attendant. But are they making the right informed decision knowing everything about how the airline operates and what it practises?

What about pressures on the crew ? What about training? What about maintanance of the aircraft? What about pilot experience?

I could,d go on for hours, but my point is, it's very difficult to make an informed decision, unless you are either in the industry or in the know. It's not easy to examine all the information and make an informed choice & that's where the problem lies IMO.

At the end of the day, like I said before there's no sky hooks and when shiitttt hits the fan and push comes to shove impact with the ground/water or other hard objects usually results in the same thing. For me, when I fly, I want the best trained guys flying the best equipped and maintained planes. The seat, meals and bonuses are all extras from there.

IMO current aviation legislation and issues around self regulation of maintained and everything else doesn't go far enough as far as I'm concerned.

[robblok]

I have a few friends who are Pilots, and a couple of retired pilots - all with the big name carriers. Put it this way, they are appalled at some of the sharp practices that a number of Asian airlines are pulling. I would not fly with any of The Chinese Airlines period, and none of the budget ones either.

Prefer to pay a few extra baht with the more established Airlines such as SQ, Emirates, Cathay, Etihad than chance it with a number of carriers. As far as I know though that Air Asia don't operate P2F, but a number of other low cost carrier in the region certainly do.

Look, but that is why we got freedom of choice, personally given the amount of airplanes flying in the sky the amount of accidents are minor. I think I risk more in my car or on my bike in BKK traffic.

Sure there are risks but lets not blow it out of proportion. So if you want to even decrease your risk pay more, I seriously am not worried about air asia and many other airlines.

Rob,

People make informed decisions everyday. For example, an acquaintance see you standing at the roadside awaiting a taxi. He stops and offers you a ride. You know this person well, he often speeds, drives recklessly and you can smell alcohol on his breath. You knows taxi ride to where you going is in $40 or do you take the risk and get in and go with your careless acquaintance? Of course, if you are smart......you ride the taxi.

The overseas or interstate flight to 'wherever' is a different story. You visit the travel agent or buy online, you look at the airfare ($), you look at flight times, departure points, is the flight direct ? ....the amount of luggage you are allowed and so forth. So e might even go off if they like the colour of the planes and or sexiness of the flight attendant. But are they making the right informed decision knowing everything about how the airline operates and what it practises?

What about pressures on the crew ? What about training? What about maintanance of the aircraft? What about pilot experience?

I could,d go on for hours, but my point is, it's very difficult to make an informed decision, unless you are either in the industry or in the know. It's not easy to examine all the information and make an informed choice & that's where the problem lies IMO.

At the end of the day, like I said before there's no sky hooks and when shiitttt hits the fan and push comes to shove impact with the ground/water or other hard objects usually results in the same thing. For me, when I fly, I want the best trained guys flying the best equipped and maintained planes. The seat, meals and bonuses are all extras from there.

IMO current aviation legislation and issues around self regulation of maintained and everything else doesn't go far enough as far as I'm concerned.

N.D. Guess we won't agree here I believe in freedom to make decisions and its up to the person making the decision to inform himself. This information about crashes is available everywhere so you can make your decision. Did you see the webpage i posted. You have 50% less chance if you go with the best compared with the worst. But even the worst the chance is 1 in 2 million. (wonder what my chances are here on the roads in Thailand).

Your choice is to go with the best, good.. mine is not as I feel the risk is not that big (though of course there are airlines that I won't touch). What you are advertising is something I have always been against and that is to take the most stupid person around and protect him against himself. By doing this you limit the choices of others I hat this practice with a vengeance. For me its a matter of principle and the chance of 1 in 2 million or 1 in 4 million is not that bad. (though i would not fly with the worst of them)

I often also feel that these regulations are used to push the cheaper players out of the market. That is why I like freedom, just give them a sticker to make it easier to select.

[HeijoshinCool]

Back in my air force days, when some fighter jock augured in, everyone would publicly say, He was an excellent pilot. The best.

In private they'd say, He sure screwed the pooch.

[than]

The co-pilot was french citizen......

[EyesWideOpen]

I wonder if this crash will raise any questions about P2F airlines and the stupid rules/laws that allow airlines around the world to employ 'low hour' pilots to form part of a two crew flight deck on commercial passenger flights?

Captain Iriyanto may have been an excellent and well experienced pilot, however, even fantastic pilots make mistakes. I'm not saying that this Captain was responsible for what occurred on THIS OCCASSION, I don't know that at this point, nobody knows exactly what was going on in that flight deck, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. But I will say, during a phase of emergency in a cockpit, it's really benificial to have EXPERIENCED FLIGHT CREW, not one but two of them ,AS A MINIMUM. Of course the more experienced people you have around when one makes a mistake, the greater chance you have of the other people picking up on that mistake.

In years gone by, aircraft commonly use to fly with with a flight crew of three, usually two pilots and a flight engineer. Over the years flight engineers became redundant and most commercial planes out there now fly with two crew. The planes have changed and technology has reduced workload DURING NORMAL OPERATION allowing two pilots to easily fly the aircraft. BUT...

...BUT, when a flight encounters problems and then turns Into an emergency situation, it's very easy for task saturation to overwhelm two pilots, heck it's even possible for these situations to overload a team of pilots, such as the well publicised incident involving the Qantas A380 above Singapore.

Anyway, what I'm trying say (& be brief about it) is that pilots really start to earn their money when things start to go wrong. Even the worlds best pilot with 25,000 to 30,000 hours will really need help when all the holes in the cheese start to line up and the alarms and bells start ringing. These situations are really stressful, stressful beyond what most people understand and often just seconds in time and a few basic decisions and actions may result in the loss of hundreds of lives. Most pilots with barely 2000 hours wouldn't be the guy you would want sitting next to you when and if one of these situations occurs, although I accept there's always exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, that's what you can get with so e of these budget airlines, is low hour pilots with considerably less experience. Again, I'm not saying that's what caused this Air Asia crash but what I am saying is Experience is invaluable during emergencies. I cringe to think what might have occurred in that cockpit leading up to this crash.

What is P2F ? (I hear you say)

P2F, takes these issues to an even lower level. I'm not saying that Air Asia Indonesia has P2F piloting schemes, I'm not sure but there's quite a few budget airlines out there that do.

P2F is where the first officer on the flight has actually paid the airline to have his position on the flight deck. Commonly these P2F pilots sign a contract with an airline where they work with an airline for say 2 years and they pay the airline $70,000 to $100,000 (plus) to obtain the F.O. Position and occupy the first officers seat on the flight deck. These Pilots work unpaid and usually only have their uniforms and lay over accommodation supplied by the airline. In exchange for all this money and time they get to build their flight hours.....obviously with the hope of securing a paid position with either the airline they P2F with or another airline once they've built their hours.

So, it's entirely possible, that with P2F airlines, you may have a Captain with say 6-7000 hours flying the aircraft and his mate in the right hand seat has only several hundred hours, maybe 1000-2000 hours flying experience. I am talking TOTAL flying experience here. YOU WILL NOT find this with airlines like Emirates, Singapore, Qantas <insert airline name>. A 2000 hour pilot will not get a F.O. position with these major airlines.....but the budget airlines rely on these guys.

So it's not just the food, cheaper plane interiors and reduced level of service you get with the low cost carriers but it's also things which IMO are so what very serious, especially when it comes to emergency situations.

Anyway, it's slightly off topic,as there has been no suggestion that P2F has played a part in this Air Asia tragedy.....but I'm Not surprised that a guy with only 2000 hours was in the F.O.'s seat.....I might not be surprised BUT A FEW OF YOU should be worried.

It may be the case where something caused this crash other than the pilots actions and something completely isolated to their respective experience....but the PAX of the world out there should probably reconsider what is important about flying.

There's no sky hooks out there people, when push comes to shove, gravity always wins. Sadly aviation laws arnt protecting the general flying public. The aviation industry has been speeding down a very ugly road for many years now, it's come at a time when planes (apparently) have been made safer through technology but at the same time, certain airlines attempt to cut costs to compete, in order to acheive those low airfares....something has to give.... And the money is saved somewhere. THINK about it.

I could also talk about 'Automation' too but maybe I will save that for another time.

RIP Captain, RIP First Officer and RIP to all your crew and passengers.

Correct. This was certainly proven in the crash of United Airlines 232. And I would think

the this concept would not work very well if the FO was a low time pilot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232

"The accident has since become a prime example of successful Crew Resource Management.^[21] For much of aviation's history, the captain was considered the final authority, and crews were to respect the captain's expertise and not question him. This began to change in the 1970s, especially after the Tenerife airport disaster. Crew Resource Management, while still considering the captain the final authority, instructs crewmembers to speak up when they detect a problem, and instructs captains to listen to their concerns. United Airlines instituted a Crew Resource Management class in the early 1980s. The NTSB would later credit this training as valuable toward the success of United 232's crew in handling their emergency.^[1] The FAA made Crew Resource Training mandatory in the aftermath of the accident.

[khaosai]

I wonder if this crash will raise any questions about P2F airlines and the stupid rules/laws that allow airlines around the world to employ 'low hour' pilots to form part of a two crew flight deck on commercial passenger flights?

Captain Iriyanto may have been an excellent and well experienced pilot, however, even fantastic pilots make mistakes. I'm not saying that this Captain was responsible for what occurred on THIS OCCASSION, I don't know that at this point, nobody knows exactly what was going on in that flight deck, AT THIS POINT IN TIME. But I will say, during a phase of emergency in a cockpit, it's really benificial to have EXPERIENCED FLIGHT CREW, not one but two of them ,AS A MINIMUM. Of course the more experienced people you have around when one makes a mistake, the greater chance you have of the other people picking up on that mistake.

In years gone by, aircraft commonly use to fly with with a flight crew of three, usually two pilots and a flight engineer. Over the years flight engineers became redundant and most commercial planes out there now fly with two crew. The planes have changed and technology has reduced workload DURING NORMAL OPERATION allowing two pilots to easily fly the aircraft. BUT...

...BUT, when a flight encounters problems and then turns Into an emergency situation, it's very easy for task saturation to overwhelm two pilots, heck it's even possible for these situations to overload a team of pilots, such as the well publicised incident involving the Qantas A380 above Singapore.

Anyway, what I'm trying say (& be brief about it) is that pilots really start to earn their money when things start to go wrong. Even the worlds best pilot with 25,000 to 30,000 hours will really need help when all the holes in the cheese start to line up and the alarms and bells start ringing. These situations are really stressful, stressful beyond what most people understand and often just seconds in time and a few basic decisions and actions may result in the loss of hundreds of lives. Most pilots with barely 2000 hours wouldn't be the guy you would want sitting next to you when and if one of these situations occurs, although I accept there's always exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, that's what you can get with so e of these budget airlines, is low hour pilots with considerably less experience. Again, I'm not saying that's what caused this Air Asia crash but what I am saying is Experience is invaluable during emergencies. I cringe to think what might have occurred in that cockpit leading up to this crash.

What is P2F ? (I hear you say)

P2F, takes these issues to an even lower level. I'm not saying that Air Asia Indonesia has P2F piloting schemes, I'm not sure but there's quite a few budget airlines out there that do.

P2F is where the first officer on the flight has actually paid the airline to have his position on the flight deck. Commonly these P2F pilots sign a contract with an airline where they work with an airline for say 2 years and they pay the airline $70,000 to $100,000 (plus) to obtain the F.O. Position and occupy the first officers seat on the flight deck. These Pilots work unpaid and usually only have their uniforms and lay over accommodation supplied by the airline. In exchange for all this money and time they get to build their flight hours.....obviously with the hope of securing a paid position with either the airline they P2F with or another airline once they've built their hours.

So, it's entirely possible, that with P2F airlines, you may have a Captain with say 6-7000 hours flying the aircraft and his mate in the right hand seat has only several hundred hours, maybe 1000-2000 hours flying experience. I am talking TOTAL flying experience here. YOU WILL NOT find this with airlines like Emirates, Singapore, Qantas <insert airline name>. A 2000 hour pilot will not get a F.O. position with these major airlines.....but the budget airlines rely on these guys.

So it's not just the food, cheaper plane interiors and reduced level of service you get with the low cost carriers but it's also things which IMO are so what very serious, especially when it comes to emergency situations.

Anyway, it's slightly off topic,as there has been no suggestion that P2F has played a part in this Air Asia tragedy.....but I'm Not surprised that a guy with only 2000 hours was in the F.O.'s seat.....I might not be surprised BUT A FEW OF YOU should be worried.

It may be the case where something caused this crash other than the pilots actions and something completely isolated to their respective experience....but the PAX of the world out there should probably reconsider what is important about flying.

There's no sky hooks out there people, when push comes to shove, gravity always wins. Sadly aviation laws arnt protecting the general flying public. The aviation industry has been speeding down a very ugly road for many years now, it's come at a time when planes (apparently) have been made safer through technology but at the same time, certain airlines attempt to cut costs to compete, in order to acheive those low airfares....something has to give.... And the money is saved somewhere. THINK about it.

I could also talk about 'Automation' too but maybe I will save that for another time.

RIP Captain, RIP First Officer and RIP to all your crew and passengers.

Hi,

Pay to Fly I don't agree with. It is purely driven by airline executives minimising expenditure, but it does not necessarily end up with incompetent crews in the skies overhead.

Pilots with low hours are perfectly capable of flying large commercial aircraft. If they turn up with a good attitude to learning and have been given the proper training the end result is a safe competent operator.

[2fishin2]

Agree the low hour pilots are perfectly capable. Many of those low hour pilots have more time in a cockpit that the high hour guys do. You forget that MANY commercial pilots are former military pilots with thousands of hours under their wings in the military.

[Trouble]

Does it occur to anyone that a Captain could in fact have less hours flying a particular aircraft than the first officer but more total flying time. I am not saying this is the case here but this whole discussion is kind of foolish in relation to this particular crash because there is absolutely no information that there is anything untoward by Air Asia in the hiring of their pilots. The OP and discussion here tends to taint the reputation of Air Asia and the pilots. Until the investigation is complete what's the point? I have yet to see an actual aviation expert/pilot/ give any indication of what happened and what may have gone wrong. Until then why not stop coming up with such crap?

N.D. as you said in your post you have no idea what happened. If you want to discuss problems with the low fare airlines you might want to do it independently of the thread on this particular crash as starting a discussion under the article about the pilots does them a disservice.

[ozyjon]

In my 20's i took up flying, i've done so many other things that this filled in the gaps, 30 years later i still remember the excellent teachers but also many of the lessons, one of the most interesting lessons i had was about FOG, what is it and why it happens (low lying cloud / when the earth and air are the same temperature = fog) i still remember, and the other lesson that was also excellent but really scary (from a pilot's point of view) was about CLOUDS, from cute fluffy ones to big ugly black ones then to the resulting storm cells, cumulonimbus, what was hammered into us the students was, NEVER FLY INTO A THUNDERSTORM so what happened here ? i'm so sad at what happened, i'm also so scared as i have flown AirAsia so many times and now it's the third Malaysian based plane that's gone down, so many unanswered questions as to why? As a footnote, my neighbor is a pilot for Qantas and he was telling me stories quite similar to many posts here but one thing he told me was that the top airlines never employ pilots with previous military experience or that come from military/air force,, could there be a reason for that in civil aviation,,, interesting.

[Jay Sata]

Speaking as a pilot of 30 years plus experience let me give you my take.

First I should explain that no commercial airline pilot is allowed to hand fly the aircraft above 5,000ft.

Entering a storm cell is like riding a bucking bronco.

The instruments will be useless and the pilot has no outside reference.

Over the sea at night there are no visual references.

By the time the aircraft enters a stall spin the chances of recovery are zero if in cloud.

[wilgoster]

We all know he requested to climb 6000 ft. and change direction (fuel expense). Do we know that his request was granted? I read one reference that he was refused.

[khaosai]

Speaking as a pilot of 30 years plus experience let me give you my take.

First I should explain that no commercial airline pilot is allowed to hand fly the aircraft above 5,000ft.

Entering a storm cell is like riding a bucking bronco.

The instruments will be useless and the pilot has no outside reference.

Over the sea at night there are no visual references.

By the time the aircraft enters a stall spin the chances of recovery are zero if in cloud.

Just to clear up some points on the above discussions:

Commercial Airline Pilots are most certainly allowed to hand fly the aircraft above 5000ft. They are pilots first and foremost. Some may choose not to hand fly the aircraft and there will be many occasions where use of the autopilot is more appropriate, busy airspace for example.

Airlines around the world do employ many ex military pilots. There is no reason not to employ them. Airline pilots are made up from many different backgrounds.

On occasion the first officer may have more experience on a particular aircraft type than the Captain and on occasion the First Officer may have much more total flying hours than the Captain.

[2fishin2]

In my 20's i took up flying, i've done so many other things that this filled in the gaps, 30 years later i still remember the excellent teachers but also many of the lessons, one of the most interesting lessons i had was about FOG, what is it and why it happens (low lying cloud / when the earth and air are the same temperature = fog) i still remember, and the other lesson that was also excellent but really scary (from a pilot's point of view) was about CLOUDS, from cute fluffy ones to big ugly black ones then to the resulting storm cells, cumulonimbus, what was hammered into us the students was, NEVER FLY INTO A THUNDERSTORM so what happened here ? i'm so sad at what happened, i'm also so scared as i have flown AirAsia so many times and now it's the third Malaysian based plane that's gone down, so many unanswered questions as to why? As a footnote, my neighbor is a pilot for Qantas and he was telling me stories quite similar to many posts here but one thing he told me was that the top airlines never employ pilots with previous military experience or that come from military/air force,, could there be a reason for that in civil aviation,,, interesting.

Incorrect, I worked with USAF pilots for many years. A vast number go on to fly civilian airlines. In fact, their experience is perferred

[neverdie]

N.D. as you said in your post you have no idea what happened. If you want to discuss problems with the low fare airlines you might want to do it independently of the thread on this particular crash as starting a discussion under the article about the pilots does them a disservice.

Hello Trouble,

FYI the captain on this flight had some 6100 hrs on type & more than the FO. (You didn't state otherwise & may now already know this).

Regarding the above quote, my apologies as I wasn't trying to slag either of these guys off, wasn't my intent. The article was throwing up basically how wonderful the fd crew were and I was raising the issues I did. I can see a problem with having F.O's of 1000 - 2000 hrs on a 2 crew flight operating ac like this.....whilst I accept the f.o may of also had military experience.

My main point, generally you will find a lot lower hour captains & f.o.'s on budget airlines compared to the hrs of same with mobs like Cathay, Qantas,Ek etc. I realise there's exception to this as a few ex buds of mine are driving for Virgin oz and porn star.

5000hr commands & 500hr f.o.'s make me nervous.....period. Call me old fashion but I like my drivers to be experienced.

It may be along time ago now but I use to drive myself & I'm also lucky enuf to have survived a very poor landing once.....I think some boofhead actually classified it a 'crash' ....at a later point, the fact the landing wasn't at an airport might of had something to do with it.

Anyway, at this point, I'm not critising these poor men, although I am curious what they were doing in that big nasty system they were flying around in.

As I've said every time I've written anything, time will tell, hopefully the Orange boxes will be in investigators hands in the next week or so.

Sad to see so many lives snuffed out by something that will probably end up boiling down to one or three tiny issues or errors, as you know it's rarely one thing that results in tragedy like this.

Cheers.

[Mosha]

We all know he requested to climb 6000 ft. and change direction (fuel expense). Do we know that his request was granted? I read one reference that he was refused.

He was given permission to turn. His request to climb was amended by ATC with a final clearence to 380 later. However that final message from ATC did not get a response.