Army 'needs martial law to shield itself'

[Bob12345]

given Thailand's history and current trajectory, with all due respect, we already are in 'pre-coup' times. We just haven't hit the brief pause between military governments yet.

With all due respect, but that's a stupid remark. It's like saying "we're in pre-rainy season times while being in the rainy season, on the possibility there will be another rainy season after this one"

Maybe you should make an effort to read between the lines and try to understand what is being said.

[heybruce]

For someone not demanding anything you're demanding in getting answers to your questions. Questions I call less relevant to be friendly. That some of my posts offend you to the point of calling them 'foolish' and 'indefensible' only shows a certain lack of acceptance of free speech. IMHO.

Anyway, maybe I need protection, almost like the army needs the Martial Law, allegedly that is

Ok rubl, if you must be given examples, a few of your foolish and indefensible posts are:

In post #188, in your continued insistence that it was significant that the PTP government had asked the military for assistance in conducting elections, you wrote:

"The Yingluck remnant government had a fully functioning police force to deploy, didn't they? Why would someone try to drag the Army in an activity so important to 'real' democracy?"

I replied in post #199 with:

"Yingluck's police force was as fully functioning as Abhisit's in 2006. The biggest difference between 2006 and 2014 was that the military bloodily crushed protesters calling for elections in 2006, then toppled the government to accommodate protesters opposing elections in 2014."

I admit I screwed up the date, but you clearly knew I meant the 2010 unrest. Rather than give an intelligent defense you dropped the matter.

In reply to my query in post #177:

"Good point; why does this qualified General/PM need martial law to stay in office?"

You gave the somewhat puzzling reply in post #189:

"You mean apart from being elected by the NLA members and confirmed by H.M. the King?"

Surely you didn't expect to get away with suggesting the NLA election was legitimate. I replied to this foolish post with post #200 with:

"You mean being elected by the NLA members he appointed? You're really getting desperate."

You didn't attempt to defend this post either.

In post #190 you made me question if you had bothered to read the OP by posting:

"It would seem the army needs the Martial Law to protect itself from malicious rumours, 'agent provocateurs' and the like."

I pointed out in post #201:

"You really should read the OP before posting ruble, in this case the first three paragraphs:

"The military is expected to have increased political roles in this new year although there is a unity problem among top commanders in the Army, according to sources familiar with the armed forces.

Observers say martial law - imposed shortly before the coup in May - is likely to be retained for a long time, to help ensure that the military will have the power to deal with unexpected problems when they arise.

"There are uncertainties in the Army. The decision-making is done from many sources of power in the Army. So it is inevitable for martial law to be retained. The military needs some tool to deal with problems that may happen in the future," said one source, a high-ranking officer in the armed forces."

It would seem the junta needs martial law to protect junta from its own military."

Once again, you dropped this issue.

I could go on, but you should get the picture--you seemed to think Prayuth's NLA election was a real election, you think it's significant that Yingluck requested help from the military in conducting elections but don't want to address Abhisit's use of the military to crush protests, and it would seem you posted on the subject of martial law without bothering to read the OP. I consider these foolish and indefensible positions, if you disagree feel free to defend them.

Finally, you accuse me of posting questions that are "less relevant to be friendly." Perhaps you can explain how your questions in post #188 are relevant to the subject of the junta needing martial law to deal with dissent in the army.

To go on, you are like Pheu Thai spokesperson Prompong who accused and demanded "prove me wrong". Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer.

BTW my question in #188 was in relation to the post I replied to, with a few more posts embedded till mine with "you guys are drifting off again"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788719-army-needs-martial-law-to-shield-itself/page-8#entry8895271

"Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer."

I've noticed that. In fact you seem to be so busy posting off-topic comments on the amnesty bill and other subjects you have no time to defend your questionable posts or address the OP.

Regarding your link, I assume you are referring to your confidence the army will lift martial law prior to the next election, whenever that might be. This is marginally on-topic at best, there is no mention of elections in the OP, just discussion and speculation about army big-shots vying for power.

Edited January 8, 2015 by heybruce

[rubl]

given Thailand's history and current trajectory, with all due respect, we already are in 'pre-coup' times. We just haven't hit the brief pause between military governments yet.

With all due respect, but that's a stupid remark. It's like saying "we're in pre-rainy season times while being in the rainy season, on the possibility there will be another rainy season after this one"

Maybe you should make an effort to read between the lines and try to understand what is being said.

You probably mean "trying to understand what is being suggested or insinuated"

[Bob12345]

given Thailand's history and current trajectory, with all due respect, we already are in 'pre-coup' times. We just haven't hit the brief pause between military governments yet.

With all due respect, but that's a stupid remark. It's like saying "we're in pre-rainy season times while being in the rainy season, on the possibility there will be another rainy season after this one"

Maybe you should make an effort to read between the lines and try to understand what is being said.

You probably mean "trying to understand what is being suggested or insinuated"

I am missing the big difference...

[sjaak327]

The NLA members qualify as required in the Interim Constitution. The qualifications required are not really different from the qualifications one required of aspiring candidate MPs in the 2007 or even 1997 Constitution.

As for 'non-qualified cabinet members' name some.

Nepotism doesn't apply at all I think, not even with PM Prayut's little brother.

None of this has anything to do with needing Martial Law by the way.

You are forgetting that the MP's in the 2007 constitution were actually elected either through PL or constituency, so no appointment was involved. This is different from the NLA which are all appointed, hence bruce64 is correct.

Being able to elect people appointed by a criminal fugitive seems more like nepotism and cronyism than having NLA members appointed to help a program of reform not take too much time in order to make it possible to dissolve the NLA after a year. Furthermore said NLA members are NOT allowed to stand for a political position within three years.

Hence neither you nor bruce64 are correct.

No since Thaksin could appoint all he wants, those 'appointed' still have to gain enough votes to actually end up in parliament. The NLA members end up in the NLA because they are truly appointed and no member of the Thai electorate could do anything about it.

The fact that the NLA might be dissolved after a certain period, and it's members might not be allowed to stand for office, doesn't change the fact they ARE reforming without a mandate from the electorate.

[rubl]

With all due respect, but that's a stupid remark. It's like saying "we're in pre-rainy season times while being in the rainy season, on the possibility there will be another rainy season after this one"

Maybe you should make an effort to read between the lines and try to understand what is being said.

You probably mean "trying to understand what is being suggested or insinuated"

I am missing the big difference...

If "We just haven't hit the brief pause between military governments yet" surely "we already are in 'pre-coup' times" is incorrect or at least the suggestion doesn't make sense?

[rubl]

To go on, you are like Pheu Thai spokesperson Prompong who accused and demanded "prove me wrong". Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer.

BTW my question in #188 was in relation to the post I replied to, with a few more posts embedded till mine with "you guys are drifting off again"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788719-army-needs-martial-law-to-shield-itself/page-8#entry8895271

"Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer."

I've noticed that. In fact you seem to be so busy posting off-topic comments on the amnesty bill and other subjects you have no time to address the OP.

Regarding your link, I assume you are referring to your confidence the army will lift martial law prior to the next election, whenever that might be. Maybe, but only after the election has been fixed and the elected offices reduced to meaninglessness in the next constitution.

You are still trying to goad people in making remarks so you can go on and on with your obfuscation and twisting around. Very argumentative without bringing new insight.

BTW I only correct a common misunderstanding about the status of the "blanket amnesty bill" before the coup. Some keep on suggesting it was dead even if they should know better.

[rubl]

The NLA members qualify as required in the Interim Constitution. The qualifications required are not really different from the qualifications one required of aspiring candidate MPs in the 2007 or even 1997 Constitution.

As for 'non-qualified cabinet members' name some.

Nepotism doesn't apply at all I think, not even with PM Prayut's little brother.

None of this has anything to do with needing Martial Law by the way.

You are forgetting that the MP's in the 2007 constitution were actually elected either through PL or constituency, so no appointment was involved. This is different from the NLA which are all appointed, hence bruce64 is correct.

Being able to elect people appointed by a criminal fugitive seems more like nepotism and cronyism than having NLA members appointed to help a program of reform not take too much time in order to make it possible to dissolve the NLA after a year. Furthermore said NLA members are NOT allowed to stand for a political position within three years.

Hence neither you nor bruce64 are correct.

No since Thaksin could appoint all he wants, those 'appointed' still have to gain enough votes to actually end up in parliament. The NLA members end up in the NLA because they are truly appointed and no member of the Thai electorate could do anything about it.

The fact that the NLA might be dissolved after a certain period, and it's members might not be allowed to stand for office, doesn't change the fact they ARE reforming without a mandate from the electorate.

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties. How can a party democratically function in a democracy when it's owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive?

As for reform, the doctor proscribed it to the patient. The NRC is still open for suggestions on what and how, but it would seem some rather non-obstruct by non-cooperation in order to complain later that their views are not heard.

Don't worry though, we may get a referendum on the Constitution and in a years time elections. That is assuming the Thai people do not come to expect the NLA to take (immediate) action in any perceived wrong.

[tbthailand]

given Thailand's history and current trajectory, with all due respect, we already are in 'pre-coup' times. We just haven't hit the brief pause between military governments yet.

With all due respect, but that's a stupid remark. It's like saying "we're in pre-rainy season times while being in the rainy season, on the possibility there will be another rainy season after this one"

I respect your right to say so.

[heybruce]

To go on, you are like Pheu Thai spokesperson Prompong who accused and demanded "prove me wrong". Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer.

BTW my question in #188 was in relation to the post I replied to, with a few more posts embedded till mine with "you guys are drifting off again"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788719-army-needs-martial-law-to-shield-itself/page-8#entry8895271

"Well, a few dedicated posters can ask more 'interesting' questions than this poor lonely Dutch uncle can find time to answer."

I've noticed that. In fact you seem to be so busy posting off-topic comments on the amnesty bill and other subjects you have no time to address the OP.

Regarding your link, I assume you are referring to your confidence the army will lift martial law prior to the next election, whenever that might be. Maybe, but only after the election has been fixed and the elected offices reduced to meaninglessness in the next constitution.

You are still trying to goad people in making remarks so you can go on and on with your obfuscation and twisting around. Very argumentative without bringing new insight.

BTW I only correct a common misunderstanding about the status of the "blanket amnesty bill" before the coup. Some keep on suggesting it was dead even if they should know better.

You have yet to address the OP and you accuse me of obfuscating. I attempt to address a little of the misinformation and willful ignorance in ample evidence on this and other topics and you accuse me of goading. Are you trolling?

BTW, you apparently think the only way to truly kill the amnesty bill was for the military to overthrow the government and suspend the constitution written at the military's direction after their last coup. You also clearly enjoy posting this view. I won't argue whether this is or is not correct, but I will point out that it's off-topic.

Once again, after more times than I can remember, the OP is about the junta maintaining martial law because of dissension and power plays in the ranks of the army. There is no mention of Thaksin/Yingluck/PTP or elections. Am I goading and obfuscating by pointing this out? Do you have any on-topic comments?

[sjaak327]

No since Thaksin could appoint all he wants, those 'appointed' still have to gain enough votes to actually end up in parliament. The NLA members end up in the NLA because they are truly appointed and no member of the Thai electorate could do anything about it.

The fact that the NLA might be dissolved after a certain period, and it's members might not be allowed to stand for office, doesn't change the fact they ARE reforming without a mandate from the electorate.

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties. How can a party democratically function in a democracy when it's owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive?

As for reform, the doctor proscribed it to the patient. The NRC is still open for suggestions on what and how, but it would seem some rather non-obstruct by non-cooperation in order to complain later that their views are not heard.

Don't worry though, we may get a referendum on the Constitution and in a years time elections. That is assuming the Thai people do not come to expect the NLA to take (immediate) action in any perceived wrong.

At the very least, that party received a mandate, that mandate has an expiration date, after which that party could easily get a lesser mandate or no mandate at all. I understand you like to throw the term criminal around, but forget that the members of the NCPO also broke the law, and they control the NLA without anyone being able to chance this.

The doctor didn't prescribed anything, a small minority of people forced it down our throats, without even asking the electorate's opinion on either the need or the direction of those reforms.

The NRC might claim they are open to suggestions, yet they are not obliged to follow them. Furthermore many political parties (including the democrats) have pointed out that Martial Law prohibit them from actually suggesting or participating in the process.

The term 'may' says it all doesn't it. We may get a referendum, we may not. And even if we did, it will be a take it or leave it proposition, just as last time around.

[rubl]

What more can I say against the trinity of defenders of Democracy as they see it ?

Have fun, gentlemen.

[metisdead]

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[tbthailand]

You are forgetting that the MP's in the 2007 constitution were actually elected either through PL or constituency, so no appointment was involved. This is different from the NLA which are all appointed, hence bruce64 is correct.

Being able to elect people appointed by a criminal fugitive seems more like nepotism and cronyism than having NLA members appointed to help a program of reform not take too much time in order to make it possible to dissolve the NLA after a year. Furthermore said NLA members are NOT allowed to stand for a political position within three years.

Hence neither you nor bruce64 are correct.

No since Thaksin could appoint all he wants, those 'appointed' still have to gain enough votes to actually end up in parliament. The NLA members end up in the NLA because they are truly appointed and no member of the Thai electorate could do anything about it.

The fact that the NLA might be dissolved after a certain period, and it's members might not be allowed to stand for office, doesn't change the fact they ARE reforming without a mandate from the electorate.

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties. How can a party democratically function in a democracy when it's owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive?

As for reform, the doctor proscribed it to the patient. The NRC is still open for suggestions on what and how, but it would seem some rather non-obstruct by non-cooperation in order to complain later that their views are not heard.

Don't worry though, we may get a referendum on the Constitution and in a years time elections. That is assuming the Thai people do not come to expect the NLA to take (immediate) action in any perceived wrong.

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties.

Just as an aside, the US constitution doesn't mention political parties.

And democracy is, indeed, more than elections. I've never seen a non-junta-hugging-pro-democracy-poster ever claim otherwise on this forum... I have, however, seen some junta-hugging-anti-democracy-posters accuse non-junta-hugging-pro-democracy-posters of taking that position.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go off and make my 'ML-shield' gif so that we can all get back on topic.

[rubl]

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties. How can a party democratically function in a democracy when it's owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive?

As for reform, the doctor proscribed it to the patient. The NRC is still open for suggestions on what and how, but it would seem some rather non-obstruct by non-cooperation in order to complain later that their views are not heard.

Don't worry though, we may get a referendum on the Constitution and in a years time elections. That is assuming the Thai people do not come to expect the NLA to take (immediate) action in any perceived wrong.

Democracy is a bit more than just elections. It's also about the functioning of political parties.

Just as an aside, the US constitution doesn't mention political parties.

And democracy is, indeed, more than elections. I've never seen a non-junta-hugging-pro-democracy-poster ever claim otherwise on this forum... I have, however, seen some junta-hugging-anti-democracy-posters accuse non-junta-hugging-pro-democracy-posters of taking that position.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go off and make my 'ML-shield' gif so that we can all get back on topic.

Well, in that case let me help you with this link

http://shop.mlbadges.com/product/shield

[Now or Never]

Thais are very happy under General Prayuth's administration.

The General should use "martial Law " to imprison all the corrupt politicians

[Now or Never]

In Thailand

The word DEMOCRACY has joined the word PATRIOTISM in the phrase

" Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."