Swedes rally in support of mosques after arson attacks

[Steely Dan]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

There is a simple way to look at this. To condemn ISIS without condemning their interpretation of scripture carries no weight and could amount to nothing more than positioning between rival Islamist factions, I would categorize anything coming from CAIR in this camp. A prominent Saudi Imam condemned ISIS but over 90% of Saudis polled believe ISIS follow Islamic law and values.

Significantly none of the four major Sunni schools of jurisprudence has declared ISIS to be Takfir, in other words outside Islam. This is why Al Sisi imploring Al Azhar to modernize Islamic jurisprudence is far more significant than all the other condemnations put together. As it stands Al Azhar have refused to declare Takfir on ISIS, unless they do any condemnations of them based on scripture carry no weight.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/12/al-azhar-no-takfir-against-the-islamic-state/

Edited January 5, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Denouncing IS actions and/or their application of Islam ought to be enough, cannot realistically expect believers to renounce their faith as proof.

The process of a religion coming to terms with its scriptures takes a very long time, and is usually not something which can achieved wholesale.

Setting the bar of expectations too high will lead nowhere. Rather, encouraging what reasonable or semi-reasonable voices that are out there (while applying the big stick otherwise) may bear fruit somewhere down the line - even if it is a very long line indeed.

[Morch]

How is it unsafe to criticize Muslims in the Netherlands ? I know of only 1 guy who died because of it and they got the person who did it.

I can't think of anyone who has been murdered for criticizing Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. anywhere in the world.

It is usually unsafe to openly overly criticize religion (any religion) if one happens to be among zealots. So, as a general statement this is not exactly correct - try this in certain Hindu, Jewish or Christian communities at your own peril. Granted, this is far more common in countries where relevant religion is dominant. Most believers tend to be more careful in their ways when numbers are not in their favor (not a great display of faith there, coming to think about it....).

It could be, intuitively, at least, true that Muslims are show greater inclination for these kind of reactions even when they are a minority.

[JockPieandBeans]

Denouncing IS actions and/or their application of Islam ought to be enough, cannot realistically expect believers to renounce their faith as proof.

Words mean nothing. actions mean everything.

An Army could be realistically expected to defend its mother Country. What did the Iraqi Army do. Thats correct, dumped their kit and made a great Linford Christie impression when IS rolled into Iraq.

Faith stronger than the pull of the mother Country ? You decide.

[Steely Dan]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Denouncing IS actions and/or their application of Islam ought to be enough, cannot realistically expect believers to renounce their faith as proof.

The process of a religion coming to terms with its scriptures takes a very long time, and is usually not something which can achieved wholesale.

Setting the bar of expectations too high will lead nowhere. Rather, encouraging what reasonable or semi-reasonable voices that are out there (while applying the big stick otherwise) may bear fruit somewhere down the line - even if it is a very long line indeed.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk didn't exactly pussyfoot around, he abolished the Caliphate and separated religion from state. Al Sisi is trying to get the ball rolling in terms of reforming Islam. To be clear we don't have the luxury of time it took for Christianity to modernize, demographics would turn Europe into hell way before that. All the Imams who condemn ISIS have zero effect on reigning in violent Muslim street mobs In Europe, for example in France close on 1000 cars were burnt on New Year's Eve, which the press praised as the number was down from last year. Can you imagine what France would be like if the Muslim population rises to say 15% from its current 9%. As I stated there are no Liberal solutions left IMHO.

[Yahooka]

One of the fires seems to be accidental says the police.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the others are caused because of frictions in the Muslim community .

Edited January 5, 2015 by Yahooka

[jacky54]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Well it might be and should be if such passages were promoting worldwide violence, but as they are not it's not an issue.

[Sirpia]

Maybe you better do some studying about what Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot did to their own people. Communism was just as evil as radical Islam is today.

One does feel sorry for these American posters. Life just goes above their heads.

Nope we actually feel sorry for people like you there is just no hope for you

Being pitied by the not-so-bright, who cannot comprehend the reality of the situation, or even that the situation exists. It does amuse me. Thanks.

[Ulysses G.]

People that don't seem to even realize how many evil things that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot did to to their own people, should not be pointing the finger of not-so-brightness at others.

[MrWorldwide]

No surprises that these threads go downhill quickly, but this is my 2-cents worth. If every church/mosque/synagogue was converted into a homeless shelter and the clergy re-assigned to hands-on charity work, surely the world would be a better place. I feel like I've just written a cue card for a Miss World contestant ('World peace and, oh yeah, that thing about synagogues and stuff !'), but that's the best I can manage at such short notice.

I'm not a fan of the anti-Islam rhetoric, but i feel for the Jordanians - they worked hard to build an economy that is still the envy of many in the region (despite having no oil of their own) and the Arab world rewarded them by dumping millions of refugees on their doorstep. Refugees fleeing conflicts that are still being framed as Sunni vs Shia in Syria and Iraq : what hope does any moderate voice have in a world where the only 'solution' to their differences seems to be to kill one another ? The West has been there, and probably still would be if Oppenheimer and his band of merry men hadn't made large-scale conflict untenable, but even the threat of total annihilation doest seem to be a deterrent to people intent on reshaping the world to fit their own vision of how it 'should' be. When the Saudi princes start using their billions to house and feed refugees instead of funding extremists, I'll start listening to those who say that it's all US propaganda and the Islamic world is one of peace and tolerance - as of right now, I dont buy that.

[Morch]

Denouncing IS actions and/or their application of Islam ought to be enough, cannot realistically expect believers to renounce their faith as proof.

Words mean nothing. actions mean everything.

An Army could be realistically expected to defend its mother Country. What did the Iraqi Army do. Thats correct, dumped their kit and made a great Linford Christie impression when IS rolled into Iraq.

Faith stronger than the pull of the mother Country ? You decide.

What does the Iraqi army's pathetic performance got to do with the the partial quote of my post?

The Iraqi Army failed for more than one reason, some which got nothing to do with Islam, even. As for "defend its mother country"...national sentiment is not exactly the same in every country, Iraq might not be the best place to look for instances of national unity. And again, not exactly sure what it got to do with denouncing certain religious doctrines and practices?

[Morch]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Denouncing IS actions and/or their application of Islam ought to be enough, cannot realistically expect believers to renounce their faith as proof.

The process of a religion coming to terms with its scriptures takes a very long time, and is usually not something which can achieved wholesale.

Setting the bar of expectations too high will lead nowhere. Rather, encouraging what reasonable or semi-reasonable voices that are out there (while applying the big stick otherwise) may bear fruit somewhere down the line - even if it is a very long line indeed.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk didn't exactly pussyfoot around, he abolished the Caliphate and separated religion from state. Al Sisi is trying to get the ball rolling in terms of reforming Islam. To be clear we don't have the luxury of time it took for Christianity to modernize, demographics would turn Europe into hell way before that. All the Imams who condemn ISIS have zero effect on reigning in violent Muslim street mobs In Europe, for example in France close on 1000 cars were burnt on New Year's Eve, which the press praised as the number was down from last year. Can you imagine what France would be like if the Muslim population rises to say 15% from its current 9%. As I stated there are no Liberal solutions left IMHO.

Ataturk's achievements are being unraveled as we type. Al Sisi is not trying anything yet, he had a couple of statements which to date were not followed by anything monumental.

To be clear, what "we" wish is one thing, and what long term processes take place could be another. I tend to look at long term demographics, religions maturing and global warming as being more or less on the same category.

In essence, better controls and planning in regard to immigration are not, I think, something which is really that much of a big controversy, even if the debate seems heated at times.

The issues you describe got more to do with enforcing existing laws and keeping the order. I agree that in many instances these are sacrificed for political or politically correct considerations.

This does not contradict encouraging whatever reasonable elements there are, and bashing the others with that big stick.

[Morch]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Well it might be and should be if such passages were promoting worldwide violence, but as they are not it's not an issue.

Well, were relevant passages in the Old Testament ever openly and widely rejected?

That the Old Testament may not be as influential a rally flag as it used to be in the past, is accepted.

[Ulysses G.]

why don't they condemn the violent passages in the Koran that motivate Muslims to kill so much?

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Well it might be and should be if such passages were promoting worldwide violence, but as they are not it's not an issue.

Well, were relevant passages in the Old Testament ever openly and widely rejected?

That the Old Testament may not be as influential a rally flag as it used to be in the past, is accepted.

The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament for Christians, so those old passages have already been repealed and replaced.

[i claudius]

No, this was a Muslim rally, just look the pictures.

My question is only:

HOW MANY church are there in Muslim countries?

Uuppsss ....

They are the most most pushy and violent people.

Why don't they go home simply instead of any rally ???

How would you feel if you get pushed out of Thailand.. I take it Thailand is now your home ?

Can you understand that they are a bit pissed if their mosques get burned.. I am sure you would protest too if someone did stuff like that with you. You can hate Muslims all you want but this was a crime committed against them and they have every right to protest about that.

Yes, of course mi Amigo. You just go and hug them tightly.

Man, I'm fond of Amsterdam, but if I go to Amsterdam I have to cry about the liberalism, which destroys your nice and specially high valued country.

Sweden and Norway are all the same.

I asked you a question how would you feel if you got kicked out of Thailand ? You like me (presumably) made your home here build your life here. Then all of a sudden you are forced to exit.. bet you would not like it either. Same goes for those Muslims that build their life in The Netherlands and hold normal jobs and lives.

well both of those could stay

[i claudius]

I come from a town in the UK that 30 years ago had quite a few Muslims,they dressed like us and went about their business,no women wore burkhas or covered themselves from head to toe ,we all seemed to get along,eventually they built a mosque,and more came who did not dress in western clothes ,then they built two more mosques and started to demand their rights ,The Mecca bingo hall had to close,guess why ,then you could not have advertising boards with women on ,then they rioted(never got into the national news)now where they live looks like a foreign country, and is virtually a no go area ,Muslims don't ya just love how they integrate?

[JDGRUEN]

"Submission" - a tale about the future of France ... which envisions a future France ruled by a Muslim government, is not a far-right racist scare story.


A Muslim-run France? Novel sparks Islamophobia row

Philosopher Alain Finkielkraut, a member of France’s prestigious Academie Française, who described Houellebecq as a man, “with his eyes wide open and who is not intimidated by political correctness”.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150104-novelist-houellebecq-vision-muslim-governed-france-not-racist-islamaphobia/

Edited for formatting and fair usage...

Edited January 6, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[AyG]

The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament for Christians, so those old passages have already been repealed and replaced.

I think Jesus might disagree with you. After all, he did say

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

- Matthew 5:17

[Steely Dan]

"Submission" - a tale about the future of France ... which envisions a future France ruled by a Muslim government, is not a far-right racist scare story.

A Muslim-run France? Novel sparks Islamophobia row

Philosopher Alain Finkielkraut, a member of France’s prestigious Academie Française, who described Houellebecq as a man, “with his eyes wide open and who is not intimidated by political correctness”.

http://www.france24.com/en/20150104-novelist-houellebecq-vision-muslim-governed-france-not-racist-islamaphobia/

Edited for formatting and fair usage...

And here's a more local one, Sweden was once rich, now pensioners face cuts due to this.

[Ulysses G.]

The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament for Christians, so those old passages have already been repealed and replaced.

I think Jesus might disagree with you. After all, he did say

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

- Matthew 5:17

Perhaps that depends on how you interpret it. The Old Testament said not to touch the unclean, but Jesus did. It said to kill adulterers, but he forgave them. It said not to associate with sinners, but he welcomed them. It taught hatred of enemies, but he loved his. He made a lot of changes and they are all in the New Testament.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Is condemnation of violent passages appearing in the Old Testament something regularly done by religious Jews and Christians?

Well it might be and should be if such passages were promoting worldwide violence, but as they are not it's not an issue.

Well, were relevant passages in the Old Testament ever openly and widely rejected?

That the Old Testament may not be as influential a rally flag as it used to be in the past, is accepted.

The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament for Christians, so those old passages have already been repealed and replaced.

I don't believe even you believe what you just posted.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not a practicing Christian, but I was brought up one and I do believe that is what most Christians believe. I believe in some sort of Creator and that is the extent of my religious beliefs.

The smiley was referring to the phrase "repealed and replaced", which is what most Republicans want to do with Obamacare.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

I come from a town in the UK that 30 years ago had quite a few Muslims,they dressed like us and went about their business,no women wore burkhas or covered themselves from head to toe ,we all seemed to get along,eventually they built a mosque,and more came who did not dress in western clothes ,then they built two more mosques and started to demand their rights ,The Mecca bingo hall had to close,guess why ,then you could not have advertising boards with women on ,then they rioted(never got into the national news)now where they live looks like a foreign country, and is virtually a no go area ,Muslims don't ya just love how they integrate?

The only protests in the UK about Mecca Bingo were in Luton in November 1998 when the name of Top Rank Bingo was changed to Mecca Bingo.

The hall did not close; it's still there and it's still called Mecca Bingo! Welcome to Mecca Luton Skimpot Road.

Admittedly I haven't been to Luton for a while, but the last time I was there I did not notice any difference between advertising there and elsewhere; including other areas with a high Muslim population. Though, of course, advertisers are not going to pay for adverts in areas where there is no market for their products. You wont see many adverts for pork sausages or bacon in Stamford Hill, for example. (For those who don't know, Stamford Hill is an area of London with a majority population of Haredi Jews.)

Luton riots? Do you mean in 2009: Nine rioters arrested after 'Luton protest turned violent'

The crowd, which had gathered for a peaceful protest against Muslims who denounced troops returning from Iraq in March, was supposed to be escorted by police along a planned route.

But officers ended up fighting running battles with protesters after the some of mob bolted and began attacking Asian residents.

I have no truck with anyone who denounces our troops, and it is not just Muslims who do so. Protest against a war if your feel strongly against it; but not the soldiers who have to fight it; direct your ire at the politicians.

But attacking people merely for being Asian? It is obvious that certain elements in what was supposed to be a peaceful protest were intent on causing trouble.

Or the 2011 riots in many parts of the UK, including Luton, sparked by the police shooting of Mark Duggan? No Islamic connection.

Maybe you mean the Marsh Farm Estate riots in 1992 and again1995; both of which had no Islamic connection.

So called Muslim enforced no go areas in the UK have been discussed at length elsewhere. As has been repeatedly proven, those who try and enforce such are breaking the law, arrested, prosecuted and jailed. For example: Muslim vigilantes jailed for 'sharia law' attacks in London.

Islamaphobes; don't ya just love how they ignore facts!

[H1w4yR1da]

Well, were relevant passages in the Old Testament ever openly and widely rejected?

That the Old Testament may not be as influential a rally flag as it used to be in the past, is accepted.

Why keep bringing up the Old Testament?

Are terrorists murdering hundreds of children, killing soldiers in the street and bombing public transport while screaming passages from the Old Testament?

Just more deflection.

Edited January 6, 2015 by H1w4yR1da

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who think there is one cohesive "American point of view" is not very well informed.

[H1w4yR1da]

I have no truck with anyone who denounces our troops, and it is not just Muslims who do so.

Who else does so?

But attacking people merely for being Asian? It is obvious that certain elements in what was supposed to be a peaceful protest were intent on causing trouble.

You'll find at most demonstrations, it's the anti-anti-Islam bunch, like the UAF, Hope Not Hate etc. that have the most arrests.

Islamaphobes; don't ya just love how they ignore facts!

The so-called 'Islamophobes' have nothing on the far left oin this regard.

And why do you keep using the word 'Islamophobe'?

As if it is some kind of insult?

It's inaccurate anyway. A phobia is an irrational fear. There's nothing irrational about fearing Islam

Kind of like the word 'infidel'. To be worn with pride.

[i claudius]

I come from a town in the UK that 30 years ago had quite a few Muslims,they dressed like us and went about their business,no women wore burkhas or covered themselves from head to toe ,we all seemed to get along,eventually they built a mosque,and more came who did not dress in western clothes ,then they built two more mosques and started to demand their rights ,The Mecca bingo hall had to close,guess why ,then you could not have advertising boards with women on ,then they rioted(never got into the national news)now where they live looks like a foreign country, and is virtually a no go area ,Muslims don't ya just love how they integrate?

The only protests in the UK about Mecca Bingo were in Luton in November 1998 when the name of Top Rank Bingo was changed to Mecca Bingo.

The hall did not close; it's still there and it's still called Mecca Bingo! Welcome to Mecca Luton Skimpot Road.

Admittedly I haven't been to Luton for a while, but the last time I was there I did not notice any difference between advertising there and elsewhere; including other areas with a high Muslim population. Though, of course, advertisers are not going to pay for adverts in areas where there is no market for their products. You wont see many adverts for pork sausages or bacon in Stamford Hill, for example. (For those who don't know, Stamford Hill is an area of London with a majority population of Haredi Jews.)

Luton riots? Do you mean in 2009: Nine rioters arrested after 'Luton protest turned violent'

The crowd, which had gathered for a peaceful protest against Muslims who denounced troops returning from Iraq in March, was supposed to be escorted by police along a planned route.

But officers ended up fighting running battles with protesters after the some of mob bolted and began attacking Asian residents.

I have no truck with anyone who denounces our troops, and it is not just Muslims who do so. Protest against a war if your feel strongly against it; but not the soldiers who have to fight it; direct your ire at the politicians.

But attacking people merely for being Asian? It is obvious that certain elements in what was supposed to be a peaceful protest were intent on causing trouble.

Or the 2011 riots in many parts of the UK, including Luton, sparked by the police shooting of Mark Duggan? No Islamic connection.

Maybe you mean the Marsh Farm Estate riots in 1992 and again1995; both of which had no Islamic connection.

So called Muslim enforced no go areas in the UK have been discussed at length elsewhere. As has been repeatedly proven, those who try and enforce such are breaking the law, arrested, prosecuted and jailed. For example: Muslim vigilantes jailed for 'sharia law' attacks in London.

Islamaphobes; don't ya just love how they ignore facts!

Oh so Luton had these problems as well.

dont ya love how the PC left wing crowd ignore facts.

[Morch]

Well, were relevant passages in the Old Testament ever openly and widely rejected?

That the Old Testament may not be as influential a rally flag as it used to be in the past, is accepted.

Why keep bringing up the Old Testament?

Are terrorists murdering hundreds of children, killing soldiers in the street and bombing public transport while screaming passages from the Old Testament?

Just more deflection.

Because it is not a reasonable expectation that Muslims will denounce the Koran, as a show of good faith toward non-Muslims. I was not claiming that the Old Testament is currently being widely interpreted to service violent actions.

The evolution of religions is a lengthy process. I am pretty sure that no one, at the time, could have said just when Christianity stopped being a bloodthirsty warmongering religion (well, at least as far as things done in religion's name).

[i claudius]

I realise that religion has taken a long time to leave it's evil killing ways behind but we are now in the 21st century and an age where all people know how the world works,Islam seems to be the only faith that,still resides in the middle ages and doing the same evil things that Christianity did ,will they ever change? Doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting

[Steely Dan]

I come from a town in the UK that 30 years ago had quite a few Muslims,they dressed like us and went about their business,no women wore burkhas or covered themselves from head to toe ,we all seemed to get along,eventually they built a mosque,and more came who did not dress in western clothes ,then they built two more mosques and started to demand their rights ,The Mecca bingo hall had to close,guess why ,then you could not have advertising boards with women on ,then they rioted(never got into the national news)now where they live looks like a foreign country, and is virtually a no go area ,Muslims don't ya just love how they integrate?

The only protests in the UK about Mecca Bingo were in Luton in November 1998 when the name of Top Rank Bingo was changed to Mecca Bingo.

The hall did not close; it's still there and it's still called Mecca Bingo! Welcome to Mecca Luton Skimpot Road.

Admittedly I haven't been to Luton for a while, but the last time I was there I did not notice any difference between advertising there and elsewhere; including other areas with a high Muslim population. Though, of course, advertisers are not going to pay for adverts in areas where there is no market for their products. You wont see many adverts for pork sausages or bacon in Stamford Hill, for example. (For those who don't know, Stamford Hill is an area of London with a majority population of Haredi Jews.)

Luton riots? Do you mean in 2009: Nine rioters arrested after 'Luton protest turned violent'

The crowd, which had gathered for a peaceful protest against Muslims who denounced troops returning from Iraq in March, was supposed to be escorted by police along a planned route.

But officers ended up fighting running battles with protesters after the some of mob bolted and began attacking Asian residents.I have no truck with anyone who denounces our troops, and it is not just Muslims who do so. Protest against a war if your feel strongly against it; but not the soldiers who have to fight it; direct your ire at the politicians.

But attacking people merely for being Asian? It is obvious that certain elements in what was supposed to be a peaceful protest were intent on causing trouble.

Or the 2011 riots in many parts of the UK, including Luton, sparked by the police shooting of Mark Duggan? No Islamic connection.

Maybe you mean the Marsh Farm Estate riots in 1992 and again1995; both of which had no Islamic connection.

So called Muslim enforced no go areas in the UK have been discussed at length elsewhere. As has been repeatedly proven, those who try and enforce such are breaking the law, arrested, prosecuted and jailed. For example: Muslim vigilantes jailed for 'sharia law' attacks in London.

Islamaphobes; don't ya just love how they ignore facts!

Lol, if you want facts about Luton, here is the recollections of a Luton lad you may know. The authorities and press have told you what they think of him in the earnest hope you don't listen to what he has to say. Worth every single minute this IMHO.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Steely Dan