When is too old just too old or IOW, am I too old to be a Monk?

[n210mp]

I am in my 70th year and have a leaning towards the spiritual.

I Cannot get on with any of the religions of the world but can see that Buddhism in its natural form is possibly nearer to my heart than the way I was brought up, which was in the Methodist chapels of Lancashire.

I have a friend who is a Forest Monk and we have been friends for many years.

This last few years I have been aware of a feeling that I am really only passing time in my life, just waiting to die and that maybe I could do something with my life which would be better than existing in a world were the only thought process is for the seeking of pleasure or making a cushion against the inevitability of illness or incapacity.

Being unable to afford any proper health care I have already decided on a course of action in the event of a terminal illness.

My Monk friend has asked me to join him in the forest temple as his student.

He is a venerable Monk much respected by many many people both in Thailand and around the world, he was a Doctor before he was a Monk.

I am seeking I suppose some divine answer and yes even from the posters of Thai Visa.

Any of your experiences would be interesting for me to help with the decision I will take in the near future.

Thanks to all who may answer and also to those who may not answer

EDIT

It occurs to me that people may not wish to post their private thoughts on an open forum so please send me a private message, it would really be appreciated

Edited January 3, 2015 by n210mp

[ttthailand]

Sorry I can't give you any real info based on experience but I do think you are on the right track... I think cool !!!

[trd]

Have you not answered your own question?

[Brucenkhamen]

Normally I'd say 70 is far too old to start being a forest monk (especially for someone without prior experience), it's quite a tough life, Wat Pah Nanachat for example I understand has a cut off at 50.

However as your friend has invited you so presumably is willing to look out for you and knows what you are capable of I think it's worth a shot.

I wouldn't recommend ordaining in a hurry, live with him as a layman for a while to see how the lifestyle suits you.

[slipperylobster]

Only one way to find out...try it on for size. If it does not suit you, then come back, have a beer, and tell us about it all.

[Bakeman]

Let your inner spirit guide you.

[rockyysdt]

I'm also mindful of age and our impending finish in this body.

What I've learned from many is the importance being able to accept death without fear, something which practice is capable of achieving.

Definitely, as Bruce indicated, accept the invitation as a lay person, rather than diving into the deep end.

If you're able to develop a practice to a point where you live your life in tranquility free of fear and anxiety with potential for more, then this new phase in your life will be well worth it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by rockyysdt

[AlexRRR]

Your feeling of passing time is just that a feeling, its far from the truth the universe has its ways for us to continue a learning process all the way to passing, the very fact your still searching indicates that, your age is not a barrier to anything so if going with your monk friend appeals then just do it.

[slipperylobster]

If I were thinking hard about this, I might stuff alot of money in the jar at the temple.

That is what the locals do. I think this earns "Merit".

Just give away your money.

[VincentRJ]

This last few years I have been aware of a feeling that I am really only passing time in my life, just waiting to die and that maybe I could do something with my life which would be better than existing in a world were the only thought process is for the seeking of pleasure or making a cushion against the inevitability of illness or incapacity.Being unable to afford any proper health care I have already decided on a course of action in the event of a terminal illness.My Monk friend has asked me to join him in the forest temple as his student.He is a venerable Monk much respected by many many people both in Thailand and around the world, he was a Doctor before he was a Monk.

Sounds to me that you should take up the offer of your friend to join him in the forest temple.

One should always have interests and activities in life. One is never too old to learn. There should be no actual retirement from all forms of work, just a change of activities to suit one's circumstances as one ages. In other words, retirement is a great opportunity to do something different and perhaps more interesting and rewarding.

Some people are happy just to play golf and/or go fishing when they retire. I'm not one of them, and I suspect you are not. Best of luck!

[n210mp]

Thanks for the stimulating posts.

I will as one of my friends from the smoky mountains would say "Set a spell and think on it"

I have always been a "searcher" and never able to "set" too long without finding some project to do whether it's cleaning a clean car or reading and answering a post on TV, in other words anything to keep the mind from being bored.

Although I retired at the age of 65 I didn't really retire at all but just changed my work activity to one of play activity.

I have golf, (Cheap golf at the lowest cost golf course for Farangs in Pattaya) and cycling as activities that I both enjoy for their ability to keep my body and mind as fit as they can be and also for the satisfaction of the challenge. t\

These two hobbies I enjoy without the danger of obsession taking over and thus polluting the reason for being active in them.

Especially this last few months (and years) I seem to be thinking more about spiritual or philosophical matters.

I realised that I am not at the centre of the Universe and have tried without much success to place my self away from this position and become a more lateral thinker.

The daily lifestyle in a suburb on the darkside of of Pattaya whilst stimulating if you are a heavy drinker, addicted to sex or love the company of other people who love to congregate and talk the same, same talk day in and day out in the ladybars of the dark side does not encourage me to think laterally or even to think, hence the need for a better way or at least some knowledge of a better way

I returned from Sakon Nakhon today having spent some time with my wife's Uncles and Auntie, we also spent some time at Khao Sung Kwan just North of KK, near to where my friend the forest Monk lives and so I had time to go and meet him and to discuss the situation of my entering another stage of my life.

[Loptr]

The beauty of Buddhism is that technically it is not a religion, but a philosophy... No matter how some sects insist that it is... After studying theology for a number of years, Buddhism resonates with me more than any other "religion"... With over 5200+ separate deities worshipped on the planet today, it makes one wonder just what the hell people are thinking...

[VincentRJ]

I have golf, (Cheap golf at the lowest cost golf course for Farangs in Pattaya) and cycling as activities that I both enjoy for their ability to keep my body and mind as fit as they can be and also for the satisfaction of the challenge.

These two hobbies I enjoy without the danger of obsession taking over and thus polluting the reason for being active in them.

Physical exercise is very important as one gets older. Many folks seem to ignore that fact and think that exercise is only for the young. Doctors sometimes encourage this attitude when they make blanket statements that jogging is bad for the joints and that one should walk instead.

Provided one is not overweight or already suffering from significant arthritis or osteoporosis, and provided one adopts the Buddhist principle of 'everything in moderation', there's no reason why jogging should be harmful in any way, and plenty of reasons why it's more beneficial than mere walking.

Cycling is an excellent exercise, provided one has a comfortable saddle. Golf seems a rather inefficient way of getting exercise.

Generally, there are three 'spheres' of activity that are essential for good health and longevity: Regular physical exercise; a wholesome diet with an emphasis on high fibre carbohydrates (such as All Bran, wholemeal bread and brown rice), vegetables, fruit, protein (such as eggs, fish and chicken); and a calm mind free of the continuous worries and anxieties of 'so-called' normal living.

All of these three 'spheres' (for want of a better word) interact with each other. If one neglects any one of them, one's health and longevity inevitably suffers in some way, to some degree.

It seems to me that very few people get all three right. I was surprised when I first saw photos of the famous Thai ascetic philosopher, Buddhadasa. How did he become so fat? Did he have a weakness for sweet cakes that he never overcame? If so, that seems in conflict with the best Buddhist principles.

[n210mp]

VincentRJ

Great reply

May I make a couple of points in response to your post.

Golfing at the average golf course if you walk, means a walk of at least 6 Kilometers usually in testingly hot conditions, if you couple this walk with how many times a person of average ability is going to swing his club then golf becomes a good form of exercise for the elderly.

Walking every morning when the air is fresh and cool is an excellent way for an older person to begin a regime to make him or herself more supple with a view to doing other exercises like golf or cycling when they are a little fitter.

As you say moderation in anything one does is the best way of finding satisfaction but you still need even with walking to have a bit of self discipline and desire to stretch the boundaries.

With regard to the Fat monk, I being human, make the mistake of assuming that people in high places should have high moral virtues and should not be allowed to make any mistakes or have any character faults like morbid obesity or smoking.

I then consider my relationship with Scotch and my inability to stop drinking the stuff once and for all and so stay silent in making any comment or criticism on another person's moral fibre or lack of it (With the exception of Poster "Neversaydie"

[rockyysdt]

With regard to the Fat monk, I being human, make the mistake of assuming that people in high places should have high moral virtues and should not be allowed to make any mistakes or have any character faults like morbid obesity or smoking.

I then consider my relationship with Scotch and my inability to stop drinking the stuff once and for all and so stay silent in making any comment or criticism on another person's moral fibre or lack of it (With the exception of Poster "Neversaydie"

Although in agreement about criticism of others, Vincent's comments about Ajahn Buddhadasa revolve around him being awakened.

Many are of the view that Enlightened ones should be beyond reproach, although much has been said explaining that often this is not the case, due to the continuation of habitual responses of the body/mind.

In terms of the golf, great exercise but the benefits increase the faster you complete the 18 holes.

PS; Although Vincent is big on high fibre, in reality one should balance their soluble & insoluble fibre.

Too much insoluble (high) fibre has a scraping on the intestines and can remove its healthy lining over time.

Edited January 6, 2015 by rockyysdt

[n210mp]

Thanks Rockysdt for the insight but maybe I am too simplistic in my interpretations of what is right and what is wrong and maybe even what can be allowed for;

"Many are of the view that Enlightened ones should be beyond reproach, although much has been said explaining that often this is not the case, due to the continuation of habitual responses of the body/mind"

Immediately what comes to my mind is how can you be "enlightened" if your responses and the results of your responses in this case cause a person to make/do an action resulting in being seriously overweight?

Surely if one is still subject to the "continuation of the habitual responses of the body mind" then one cannot be "Enlightened" in the first place

I feel that you may well think that I am nitpicking.

This is not my intention at all but when I see many of the Monk Brethren obviously in need of some higher moral integrity then they display with their smoking and drinking habits I become unsure that they are any different from most of the other mind control organizations that abound in the world.

Or is it a case of the asylum being taken over by the residents and whilst a true person who follows the precepts of Buddha may well be in the minority, is there a case that the majority are sound and true but the minority make the most noise and therefore bring down the whole integrity of the house such as the Sexual predators with the Catholic Church have done so successfully (without trying)

Whilst, albeit Buddhism is not a religion it still makes the same mistakes and is as flawed as other cults or religions where mind control and the amassing of wealth seems to be the case.

Back on to the topic

With the Forest Monk I have been friends with for many years , I found a person both genuine and knowledgeable.

My inspiration for following the Buddhist precepts are encouraged because of meeting him and seeing for myself that maybe "enlightenment" or the path to discovering it may well be a journey worth making

Edited January 6, 2015 by n210mp

[rockyysdt]

Thanks Rockysdt for the insight but maybe I am too simplistic in my interpretations of what is right and what is wrong and maybe even what can be allowed for;

"Many are of the view that Enlightened ones should be beyond reproach, although much has been said explaining that often this is not the case, due to the continuation of habitual responses of the body/mind"

Immediately what comes to my mind is how can you be "enlightened" if your responses and the results of your responses in this case cause a person to make/do an action resulting in being seriously overweight?

Surely if one is still subject to the "continuation of the habitual responses of the body mind" then one cannot be "Enlightened" in the first place

I feel that you may well think that I am nitpicking.

This is not my intention at all but when I see many of the Monk Brethren obviously in need of some higher moral integrity then they display with their smoking and drinking habits I become unsure that they are any different from most of the other mind control organizations that abound in the world.

Or is it a case of the asylum being taken over by the residents and whilst a true person who follows the precepts of Buddha may well be in the minority, is there a case that the majority are sound and true but the minority make the most noise and therefore bring down the whole integrity of the house such as the Sexual predators with the Catholic Church have done so successfully (without trying)

Whilst, albeit Buddhism is not a religion it still makes the same mistakes and is as flawed as other cults or religions where mind control and the amassing of wealth seems to be the case.

Not nitpicking but a worthy point needing clarification.

This is precisely what I and many think, and perhaps use as a yardstick to gauge anothers level or status on the path to Awakening.

We all have preconceptions of what Awakening actually is.

We would all, probably be very surprised to experience what it actually is.

The Ven Maha Boowa broke into tears when he spoke of the moment of his Awakening at a Dharma talk many years after the event.

He explained the tears were due to the result of the skhandas, which were still in place and influenced by genetics and conditioning of the mind/body.

He further explained that although the skhandas continued, clinging no longer occurred leading to the collapse of the Ego which is an illusion.

The 5 Skhandas (aggregates):

1. Form or "matter" (Pāli rūpa): external and internal matter. Externally, rupa is the physical world. Internally, rupa includes the material body and the physical sense organs.
2. Sensation or "feeling" ( Pāli vedanā): sensing an object as either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.
3. Perception "conception", "apperception", "cognition", or "discrimination" ( Pāli saññā): registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).
4. Mental Formation "impulses", "volition", or "compositional factors" ( Pāli saṅkhāra): all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.
5. Consciousness or "discernment" (Pāli viññāṇa):

Form, leads to sensation, leads to perception, leads , leads to mental formation, leads to consciousness of I or ego.

These events automatically take place on a continuous basis and are shaped by our conditioning and genetics.

We are locked in Samsara due to our clinging or attachment to these, thus forming the I or Me or Ego.

When Awakening occurs, insight reveals that the I, Me, Ego is just a construct.

Thus clinging or attachment to the Skhandas is broken allowing liberation to take place.

Thoughts and ideas continue to arise and cease as a natural function of the Skhandhas, but nothing adheres.

A thought arises at one instant and ceases the next. Since there is nothing to contain them and no one to lay claim to them, thoughts simply move on and vanish.

The nature that knows this complete emptiness of self is fully contented within. This nature is true absolute purity, totally free of all burdens.

What Maha Boowa and others have said, is that the aggregates continue due to conditioning, but there is no longer an Ego, I or Me to lay claim to them.

Those who do change for the better (control of past bad habits), probably had this conditioning as part of their mind/body makeup and this continues.

The poor behavior you see is a continuation of the mind/body affected by Khamma until its death, but there is no clinging as there is nothing for it to cling to.

The change (which we don't see) is that the liberated one no longer clings to Ego.

The knower was everywhere, but nothing was known. Without characteristics and without source, emanating from no point in particular, knowing was simply a spontaneous happening of cosmic expanse. The radiant awareness had dissolved in an instant, leaving only purity of mind and the essential freedom of pure Dhamma — an absolutely unconditioned knowing that entirely transcended all forms of human conception.

Practice at the Samadhi level has the power to access insight into the truth leading to Awakening and liberation.

Practice used at the Conscious level (Mindfulness) has the power to provide you with the poise and calm to review things before acting automatically.

It's this second thing which has the power of personal improvement, but it totally depends on your existing beliefs.

Some don't think they need improvement.

Everyones beliefs/tastes differ.

Example: You can become liberated and still eat white rice, whereas others will insist of wholegrain.

Its consumption has nothing to do with: an absolutely unconditioned knowing that entirely transcended all forms of human conception.

Upon Awakening, you will eat to sustain the body, but no longer cling to liking, disliking etc.

If Awakened, I personally would work towards being exemplary.

.

Edited January 6, 2015 by rockyysdt

[jacky54]

We have a forest temple next to us, it certainly does not look physically hard. Give it a go and if it does not work out you can leave when ever you want, it's not like joining the army is it. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Hopefully your friend is rather more enlightened in Buddhism than some of the pompous posters on here who read a few books and think they know it all.

Edited January 6, 2015 by jacky54

[trd]

We have a forest temple next to us, it certainly does not look physically hard. Give it a go and if it does not work out you can leave when ever you want, it's not like joining the army is it. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Hopefully your friend is rather more enlightened in Buddhism than some of the pompous posters on here who read a few books and think they know it all.

Jacky, you make too many presumptions about what you think people know or don't know. I see no pompous posters here. Look to yourself first.

[n210mp]

My instinct tells me to read your post again and again and again before starting to type any reply!

However that wouldn't be me.

So in an attempt to fathom the depths of your excellent, interesting and educational post I feel that it is right to reply with a response, whilst not instinctive or reactive to your words but written however with just a little pre thoughtfulness.

I am unsure as to the concepts or rules of what you are talking about.

I feel that in some way the teachings are for "some" and not others.

The reason for me saying this is that it occurs to me that as with skilled artists and musicians there must be something in that person in the first place for them to achieve their end result, in the case of a musician it could be the making of music which soothes ,calms and even brings tears to the eyes of the listener.In other words a spiritual experience.

I appreciate that with all great artists the learning of the basics rules, laws and practice must be gone through as stepping stones to attain mastery of their discipline.

There will be some who like naturally born academics sail through their learning and formative years without even making any effort at all.

Then there will be those who stumble, fall and feel like giving up because they feel the effort too great for them to achieve their goal.

I knew of two brothers from a Musical orientated family, one an academic and the other completely non academic ( I am being kind here)

They both studied at the same music schools and had identical training from a very famous teacher.

You already know the answer to my next question, Who was the best musician of the two brothers to listen to?

Yes it was the non academic brother who played from his heart and felt and felt the music in his very essence.

His academic brother who technically played extremely well admitted that his music when compared to his brothers lacked soul.

I use the paradox above because I feel that sometimes for a nano second I have felt something similar to that feeling that made the monk cry when he remembered his past and the moment of awakening.

As a former professional pilot I can honestly say that when going out of Manchester airport on a typical dark, cold and stormy day the first glimpse of the blue sky with the clouds beneath also gives me a similar feeling that borders on the mystical, touching places in my heart that make me say a silent prayer to whomsoever up there is responsible for its making.

Throughout my life I have talked to many Holy men from many diverse and different cultures and religions, none of them brought doubt on any others way to achieve inner peace, tranquility and oneness with God or Nirvana.

I have also entered many spiritual cul de sacs on my journey to find the answers to my questions and feel let down by the "humanness" of those who in the way of their religions are tasked with helping others find their way spiritually within their own discipline, be it Church of England , the Catholics or dare I say it Islam.

My Forest Monk friend and teacher tells me that I should come and study under him. His comments on my spiritual position I will not through modesty quote him on but apart from my healthy cynicism I cannot get out of my mind the peace and contentment that I experience when sat quietly within the confines of the temple in the forest whilst attempting to meditate

Thanks for your kindness in answering my posts

[n210mp]

Jacky Thanks a million for your encouragement and I think that maybe you are talking about other posters, posting on other threads and not this one right?

[SOTIRIOS]

...sounds good.....brother.....

[jigagee]

Hi ,

Never too old ,

Fauja Singh, took up running in his 80's 103-Year-Old Marathon Runner,

http://bit.ly/1AzrKhS

[Nemesis7]

Follow your heart, as it may lead you to inner peace. And no Sir, its never late to begin.

The sense of comfort is an illusion.

[KhnomKhnom]

For sure, go live in that place with your friend. Be sure he can watch over you as you get used to everything.

What you are thinking of doing is definitely right for your age, because now is your time to get ready for a good death. Read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or commentaries on it to understand what I am saying.

There is a hint in your statement that you "want to do the world some good." Beware of this goal in the normal Westernized way of thinking like that because that is not exactly the goal of the life you will be entering. Monks traditionally do not wander around "doing good" like The Lone Ranger or a Christian missionary.

Definitely go give it a try, but you are starting at the most difficult situation, the most advanced. Send me a message if you want to talk; I took Bodhisattva vows.

[Rinrada]

Go ahead and do it...if for nothing more at least you get a free very short back and sides.

I did a short stint in our local wat a couple of years ago and have no regrets...enjoyed it but that one time was enough.

Found no problem with sleeping on the temple floor and being roused at 4-30 for meditation (sitting on my own monks square bit of carpet)

The basic food was OK as was the walking barefoot through our village with my bowl.

Also didnt mind fasting from midday onwards(cha-lon is/was permitted ...but no sugar)

One thing I did find a wee bit "mindfull" was during the evenings we would have visitors and as a monk you have to appear above everything...don't respond to a wai etc..On this one occasion I had a nice old couple ..obviously local rather poor farmers who just wanted to say hello and touch my orange robes for good luck.....a white monk...felt a bit like Jesus C (ex altar boy etc)

After prostrating themselves respectfully they left all smiles and happy as though a weight had been lifted from their shoulders....and headed off home. Felt quite good about that afterwards.....so as said go for it and chok dee na jao..

Time for a beer...

[jamiesilver]

I spent 4 weeks of constant meditation in Doe suthep about 10 years ago.
It was mind blowing! I cannot describe how amazing i felt afterwards and how clearly i could see life for what it really was.
What i suggest is - Absolutely do it.
Even if its not for the rest of your life, Just a few months will give you such an amazing insight and you dont have to put all your eggs in one basket.
But if you do commit - take it seriously and do the work and meditation, preferably on a constant level all day and every day.
The Thai monks are pretty lame and only study about 1 hour a day, dont get caught up with the wrong crowd.
Take it serious and you will appreciate your efforts.

[uptheos]

"The daily lifestyle in a suburb on the darkside of of Pattaya whilst stimulating if you are a heavy drinker, addicted to sex or love the company of other people who love to congregate and talk the same, same talk day in and day out in the ladybars of the dark side does not encourage me to think laterally or even to think, hence the need for a better way or at least some knowledge of a better way"

I don't think you have to go into the forest and be a monk to find a better existence than this............do you?

[n210mp]

For sure, go live in that place with your friend. Be sure he can watch over you as you get used to everything.

What you are thinking of doing is definitely right for your age, because now is your time to get ready for a good death. Read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" or commentaries on it to understand what I am saying.

There is a hint in your statement that you "want to do the world some good." Beware of this goal in the normal Westernized way of thinking like that because that is not exactly the goal of the life you will be entering. Monks traditionally do not wander around "doing good" like The Lone Ranger or a Christian missionary.

Definitely go give it a try, but you are starting at the most difficult situation, the most advanced. Send me a message if you want to talk; I took Bodhisattva vows.

Thanks for the post, once again my expectations have been overwhelmed by the responses in both this thread and PMs.

I just googled "Bodhisattva" and was struck by the meaning and its words about most people living their lives in Desire and not being fully "adult"

This certainly strikes a chord with my own personal standpoint and I will look into this further.

Thanks for the offer to PM you and I certainly will once I have digested all the content of the helpful advice and comments that have been given so freely

[YesWeCan]

Greetings from India. I am 55, German, I study here meditation, yoga and philosophy. I like Buddhism also, which I encountered in Sri Lanka and Thailand. Yet I don't think it is necessary to live in a forest. There is no jungle more dense and no cave deeper and darker than the human heart. There we always live till the very end. More important is a tranquil environment filled with harmony and peace, and also lasting and fulfilling relations with good people as a foundation for spiritual growth.