AirAsia flight QZ8501 was not cleared to fly route, says Indonesia

[neverdie]

Hopefully the victims of the crash won't die in vein. This could be the catalyst for big changes in the airline industry, especially after all the issues such as Pilot experience, Training, employment conditions, P2F, maintenance short cuts, Automation of flying, Pilots lack of 'hand flying' experience, dangerous SOPS which place saving money over airmanship and all the other little dodgy practises come to light.

.....in the meantime the masses will still line up to save $10 or $20 in a flight.

[impulse]

I think the fact that Air Asia (Indonesia) is 49% owned by Air Asia should give foreigners living in Thailand some insights into why they may have been violating their license.

Does that 49% foreign ownership sound familiar?

I suspect that scratching the surface will simply show some nationalist, protectionist measures limiting their operating times in favor of the local teams, and a few envelopes smoothed that over- until something went wrong and gave the locals an opportunity to oust the foreign devils stealing their business.

Does that also sound familiar?

Edited January 4, 2015 by impulse

[timewilltell]

What day of the week the crash occurred is nothing to do with this and whether or not a permit to fly on that particular route on that particular day is just a red herring to divert attention on where it should be focussed which is recovery and investigation into the cause.

Sounds like butt covering to me which is pretty obnoxious.

[rajyindee]

According to Bloomberg, the Singapore CAA disagrees ...

"AirAsia Bhd. (AIRA), operator of Flight 8501 that went down in the Java Sea almost a week ago, had the route involved in the crash suspended by Indonesia, raising questions about coordination between that government and Singapore.

AirAsia was only permitted to fly the Surabaya-to-Singapore route on four days of the week, not including Sunday when the crash occurred, Indonesia’s Transportation Ministry said yesterday. Singapore’s Civil Aviation Authority issued a directive today saying the airline had been authorized to run daily flights during the winter season under a bilateral air-services accord."

Edited January 4, 2015 by rajyindee

[SKguy]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

I don't think Air Asia is dodgy. Apart from this accident it has quite a good safety record. In fact, a better safety record than some non-budget airlines. Just look up the stats.

I only ever had one experience of dealing with Air Asia and that will surely be the last one.

[technologybytes]

Say what you like, but Air Asia has had an outstanding safety record and there is NOTHING so far to suggest this incident was the fault of Air Asia or that it's safety is questionable.

[tracklayer]

I am now very suspicious the the Indonesia air traffic. messed up. They are running for the last bastion of the officious and useless. A non vital piece of paper wasn't issued (or a bribe wasn't paid) Therefore the fact we failed is irrelevant. Please can we gave an inquiry that finds the truth and doesn't cover asses. Many lives are dependent on finding the truth.

[Cpkt8]

Sounds like Indo air traffic control trying to push all blames to AirAsia now.

If that AirAsia flight is not authorized to fly, how on earth in the first place did the plane manage to get clearance for take off?

[Arkady]

Shouldn't they be arresting the aviation officials who allowed Air Asia to fly on an unauthorised schedule?

[bridge2bridge]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

What about the Indonesian Authorities who allowed it ti take off.

Someone should have to take responsibility for this TERRIBLE UNPREVENTABLE INCIDENT.

Let the SUING begin.

[bridge2bridge]

Shouldn't they be arresting the aviation officials who allowed Air Asia to fly on an unauthorised schedule?

EXACTLY. Someone has to pay.

This should not have happened if those responsible were doing their job.

[bridge2bridge]

Sounds like Indo air traffic control trying to push all blames to AirAsia now.

If that AirAsia flight is not authorized to fly, how on earth in the first place did the plane manage to get clearance for take off?

Makes you wonder HOW MANY of these unauthorized flights have been allowed.

If any LUCKY none came down before this one.

[Roger Lee]

Indonesia has a history of crucifying airlines with accidents, probably a cultural thing more than anything else and not surprising to me anyway.

[bridge2bridge]

What day of the week the crash occurred is nothing to do with this and whether or not a permit to fly on that particular route on that particular day is just a red herring to divert attention on where it should be focussed which is recovery and investigation into the cause.

Sounds like butt covering to me which is pretty obnoxious.

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

The Plane SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FLYING on a Sunday.

Hence all these lives were for nothing and should not have happened.

[bridge2bridge]

Indonesia has a history of crucifying airlines with accidents, probably a cultural thing more than anything else and not surprising to me anyway.

Yes Indonesia will NEVER accept any blame.

[bridge2bridge]

Hopefully the victims of the crash won't die in vein. This could be the catalyst for big changes in the airline industry, especially after all the issues such as Pilot experience, Training, employment conditions, P2F, maintenance short cuts, Automation of flying, Pilots lack of 'hand flying' experience, dangerous SOPS which place saving money over airmanship and all the other little dodgy practises come to light.

.....in the meantime the masses will still line up to save $10 or $20 in a flight.

Or a $100 or MORE.

[rethaier]

So what. That did not cause the accident. Is this deflection?

[TechnikaIII]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Utter bullsh*t.

What we are now seeing is actually an institutional opportunity to blame the pilot. This sort of crap happens everywhere, even Scandinavia and especially the USA.

Budget airlines are not about dummies lining up to save money, because if you want all the extras, the prices are almost on a par with regular airlines. It's about the way one is able to book, and select the extras according precisely to what is required. It avoids masses of waste which is all costed in to the regular airline ticket. So much food is wasted on full price airline flights, food that is paid for by everyone, whether they want it or not. They have to carry a lot in order to provide choice. Every kilo of food that is carried, eaten or not, adds to the payload and therefor the fuel bill. Luggage, where do I start? ... I'll save my breath and simply say: "Clearly, you know nothing."

Air Asia is an excellent airline. I fly with them often, and will continue to do so.

If I were to be concerned about budget airlines cutting corners in the safety area, as far as the West is concerned, I'd rather walk than use a commuter airline in the USA.

[wilcopops]

I have steadfastly refused to fly air asia for several years now. this was because of the way they treated a planeload of passengers - including myself in Singapore.

I felt that their lack of concern for their customers; high-handed, off- handed and even under-handed, making us stay overnight in the airport after cancelling a flight was unacceptable.

It occurred to me that a airline prepared to treat its "cargo" like this was in the end going to take unnecessary shortcuts at the expense of their customers ..... looks like I may have been right.

[zaZa9]

Has this got anything to do with the crash???

Seems to me Indonesia which has a very poor air safety record is creating a smoke screen to hide behind.

I see the final conclusion (report) putting fault at many factors including The Pilot, the Co Pilot, Air Asia, Indonesia, Airbus, ATC, the weather and so on.

Nothing so far would stop me booking a flight with Air Asia again, I have flown with them before and found them to be a decent airline for the price and could see no cutting of corners on safety.

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

So please do not call me a Dummy, as the only reason I am not booking a flight right now (BKK-URT) for end of April is because I do not know if this airline will survive that long due to the diarrhoeic dribble that is being put about by others.

I dunno, but maybe best to place your life in the hands of those that follow or respect the rules. Book away. I would fly Air Asia if had to. Heck, I have flown on some Russian airlines and they are pitiful regarding safety. That does not mean SE Asia airlines and ATC cut a lot of corners that increases the risk, but the the risk is still very low.

Do not know if it was an oversight or they could not bother to get permission, or they were refused permission, but still see no possible connection with this accident, not unless they were overflying military firing range used on Sundays...

What is clear the Airport (a state owned enterprise) allowed them to load cargo and passengers last Sunday, if the flight had been unlawful surely the Airport would have stopped passengers from boarding?

I dont know either , but I will bet money the LANDING airport knew of the flight and had given permission.

[Norrad]

Anyone remember the Sukhoi Superjet that crashed in Indonesia? They were cleared by ATC to descend to an altitude far below the highest peaks in the area and ended up crashing into one of them.

I don't have the greatest respect for Indonesian ATC and I am a pilot.

Sent from my ASUS_T00I using Tapatalk 2

[Briggsy]

For those of you unfamiliar with Indonesia's government, it displays some similarities to Thailand's but with less efficiency and more corruption.

So, you can expect these contradictory statements from different government departments, ministries and entities as each of them tries to cover its arse and comes up with off-the-cuff statements which are superseded by different statements later. Just as you would see in Thailand.

[Camelot]

The lawyers, as well as the insurers, will be taking a keen interest in these latest developments.

[dotpoom]

They are only licensed to fly this route on a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, I think I have those days correct.

[Stekmer]

I've also read that Indonesia Air Transport Ministry is doing an audit of all of AirAsia routes and possible 'unauthorised schedules' across all routes and has mentioned It might be possible to revoke AirAsia's licence in Indonesia.

From: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-04/four-large-parts-of-airasia-jet-qz8501-found-authorities-say/5998888

Plane was flying on 'unauthorised schedule'

Meanwhile, Indonesia's transport ministry said the AirAsia plane was flying on an unauthorised schedule when it crashed, adding it had now frozen the airline's permission to fly the route.

The transport ministry said AirAsia was not permitted to fly the Surabaya-Singapore route on Sundays and had not asked to change its schedule.

"It violated the route permit given, the schedule given, that's the problem," said Djoko Murjatmodjo, the director general of air transport.

"AirAsia's permit for the route has been frozen because it violated the route permit given."

He later added: "We are going to investigate all AirAsia flight schedules.

"Hopefully we can start on Monday. We won't focus on licences, just schedules.

"It might be possible to revoke AirAsia's licence in Indonesia."

Indonesia AirAsia chief executive Sunu Widyatmoko said the company would cooperate with the government investigation but declined to elaborate.

[MaxYakov]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Utter bullsh*t.

What we are now seeing is actually an institutional opportunity to blame the pilot. This sort of crap happens everywhere, even Scandinavia and especially the USA.

Budget airlines are not about dummies lining up to save money, because if you want all the extras, the prices are almost on a par with regular airlines. It's about the way one is able to book, and select the extras according precisely to what is required. It avoids masses of waste which is all costed in to the regular airline ticket. So much food is wasted on full price airline flights, food that is paid for by everyone, whether they want it or not. They have to carry a lot in order to provide choice. Every kilo of food that is carried, eaten or not, adds to the payload and therefor the fuel bill. Luggage, where do I start? ... I'll save my breath and simply say: "Clearly, you know nothing."

Air Asia is an excellent airline. I fly with them often, and will continue to do so.

If I were to be concerned about budget airlines cutting corners in the safety area, as far as the West is concerned, I'd rather walk than use a commuter airline in the USA.

I don't about walking;one could possibly be a victim of a US commuter plane falling in an aerodynamic stall such as Colgan Air Flight 3407 or Air Midwest Flight 5481. Do you suppose their paperwork was in order?

[Suradit69]

How could they fly without permission?

To be serious, either one of two things are likely.

1) money changed hands to allow it. Quite likely regularly, if it works out cheaper for the company.

2) pure incompetence.

It would be akin to Michele Obama visiting Bangkok and being knocked down by two motosai taxis racing each other on the footpath outside a police station.

People would ask, how the <deleted> did that happen?

The answer, simply, is South-East Asia.

Don't think about it too much.

"The answer, simply, is South-East Asia."

Considering reports of major screw ups in Farang Land, including pilots flying drunk or high or allowing children to take the controls, I think the capacity for incompetence extends a bit further than SE Asia.

My favorite is the audio report between air control and pilots of a plane that landed at the wrong airport in the US.

Audio recordings released on Monday reveal confusion between air traffic controllers and the veteran crew of a Southwest Airlines jet after they landed at the wrong airport in Missouri in January.

"I assume I'm not at your airport," one of the pilots radioed to controllers at Branson Airport, the Boeing 737's intended destination.

"4013, um, have you landed?" comes the response, according to the recordings released by the Federal Aviation Administration.

"Yea," says the pilot, after a brief pause.

Then the controller calls to another air traffic facility for the area to inquire about the plane, and there is this exchange:

"Did you watch Southwest land?" "Yea, why?"

"Did you see it come here? They're saying it landed at the wrong airport."

"Are you kidding?"

"Yea, no, I'm not."

The plane from Chicago actually landed several miles away at a municipal airport in Taney County, which doesn't have a control tower.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/travel/wrong-airport-southwest/

Edited January 4, 2015 by Suradit69

[xygote]

Just a thought chaps, but in this day and age of multiple code shares, would the flight have been "legal" (for want of a better term) if they were code sharing with an airline that DID have permission to fly that route on the Sunday?

[fvw53]

It was already strange that Air Asia changed the flight's departure time to two hours earlier than the original time. I haven't seen any explanation given for that.

One possible explanation could be that at this peak period of the year the flight was overbooked and ground staff preferred to let it take off two hours before scheduled departure (indeed some people missed this flight due to the earlier departure and survived).

What is the meaning of "not cleared" : that this was a flight added before paperwork was done.... to cope with too high demand?

[jacksam]

Dodgy.

More aspects than 1 make these budget airlines dodgy......meanwhile dummies keep linng up to fly with them....you save a bit of cash though.

Contender for most stupid post. AirAsia safety record is better than most. As for not having authorised flight time. Separate issue. More about self interest. I fly AirAsia OFTEN. Brilliant service. Please come back with sensible stats with sensible post. And yes AirAsia just overflew run way days back in phillipines. So did Thai airways few months back in bkk