Israel withholds Palestinian tax revenues after ICC move

[Morch]

Morch wrote; (sorry.. missed quote button)

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them

The Oslo Accords of 1993 are dead. 22 years of negotiations have been a complete waste of time for the Palestinians. The Israelis have never had any intention of negotiating a peace agreement. Talks were just a smokescreen for Israel to steal more land.

A Palestinian state is unviable now anyway with the minuscule amount of land left. Let Israel fall into the one state solution trap, inheriting 4 million Palestinians.

Then Israel can then either resort to full blown apartheid or more ethnic cleansing to solve their "demographic problem".

At least the struggle for justice for the Palestinians will be clearer to a global audience, without all this deflection and shilly shallying about what human rights organizations the occupiers will allow the victims to join.

This is nothing more than a copy/paste of the recent message of the month.

Rather than relating to the main theme of the article (which was to show that the Israeli government's position is hardly a consensus one, even in Israel) somehow the focus is on anything that will enable posting an agenda driven talking point.

The point is not whether the Oslo Accords are "dead" or not. The Palestinians may choose to officially disengage from the framework postulated by the agreements and seek out alternative options. That such a decision would be accompanied by consequences is nothing to be surprised about.

To say that the Oslo Accords were a "complete waste of time" for the Palestinians is simply out there. What did the Palestinians have prior to the Oslo Accords? What did they manage to achieve up until then? Nothing much.

That the Oslo Accords did not bloom into the peace expected does not mean that the effort was worthless. The Palestinians do not claim to be in a generally worse off situation as a result of the Oslo Accords, but rather the complainant is things did not go as planned. Not quite the same thing as trashing the whole process as useless.

There was no need for Israel to sign the Oslo Accords as a "smokescreen". If there was a nefarious master plan, hard to see what would have been gained by allowing the Palestinians even partial control and autonomy on any relevant territory. It would be more correct to say that while the Israeli government at the time may have had reasonable intentions, things went awry later on. Therefore the "never" claim is just hyperbole.

A Palestinian state may not be viable due to many reasons, but "miniscule amount of land left" is untrue. The issues are less of size, more to do with territorial continuity. That any future agreement will need to include adjustments (by way of taking down of illegal Israeli settlements and/or land swaps) is a given.

[Morch]

Israel are only interested in the destruction of Palestine and making anything that ever has been Palestine part of Israel.

They will not stop or accept anything other than the complete destruction of Palestine.

Israel wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

[Morch]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

Is the complaint directed at the Palestinians for signing the Oslo Accords? They did not have to, it was a choice.

Parts of the agreements were obviously not to either side's liking, this is the nature of agreements. Going to the ICC is a clear violation, not debated, fact. It can be justified by more than one reason, fair enough, but it is still a violation. It does not absolve Israel of any wrongdoing, it does not mean Israel did not violate the agreements in turn.

There are many instances, over the years, of both sides not living up to their commitments.

To make your post slightly more accurate - the Palestinians are not prosecuting anything yet, and it will be the ICC who does so, if at all. Whether or not Israeli officials will be found guilty under such possible future trial is yet to be seen - until then, "criminals facing justice" is mere propaganda.

[Seastallion]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

Is the complaint directed at the Palestinians for signing the Oslo Accords? They did not have to, it was a choice.

Parts of the agreements were obviously not to either side's liking, this is the nature of agreements. Going to the ICC is a clear violation, not debated, fact. It can be justified by more than one reason, fair enough, but it is still a violation. It does not absolve Israel of any wrongdoing, it does not mean Israel did not violate the agreements in turn.

There are many instances, over the years, of both sides not living up to their commitments.

To make your post slightly more accurate - the Palestinians are not prosecuting anything yet, and it will be the ICC who does so, if at all. Whether or not Israeli officials will be found guilty under such possible future trial is yet to be seen - until then, "criminals facing justice" is mere propaganda.

This is the sort of thing where I have a problem taking you seriously. Most of the time, you make sense, but here you gloss over or even ignore one side wants justice, the other side steals life-giving water to fill swimming pools, and yet you make out that both infractions are equal, or at least the enormity of the infraction doesn't matter.

The enormity of the infraction does matter! Especially when one infraction seeks justice against alleged criminals and the other creates hardship for innocent people. They're just not in the same ball park....they're poles apart.

And who put it in the Oslo Accords that Palestine can never appeal to a global justice system? It's sort of like those tenancy contracts that make you sign to agree the landlord can go against the law and you have no recourse because you agreed he can, but you need a place to live so you sign.

[chuckd]

"the other side steals life-giving water to fill swimming pools,"

[Morch]

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

Is the complaint directed at the Palestinians for signing the Oslo Accords? They did not have to, it was a choice.

Parts of the agreements were obviously not to either side's liking, this is the nature of agreements. Going to the ICC is a clear violation, not debated, fact. It can be justified by more than one reason, fair enough, but it is still a violation. It does not absolve Israel of any wrongdoing, it does not mean Israel did not violate the agreements in turn.

There are many instances, over the years, of both sides not living up to their commitments.

To make your post slightly more accurate - the Palestinians are not prosecuting anything yet, and it will be the ICC who does so, if at all. Whether or not Israeli officials will be found guilty under such possible future trial is yet to be seen - until then, "criminals facing justice" is mere propaganda.

This is the sort of thing where I have a problem taking you seriously. Most of the time, you make sense, but here you gloss over or even ignore one side wants justice, the other side steals life-giving water to fill swimming pools, and yet you make out that both infractions are equal, or at least the enormity of the infraction doesn't matter.

The enormity of the infraction does matter! Especially when one infraction seeks justice against alleged criminals and the other creates hardship for innocent people. They're just not in the same ball park....they're poles apart.

And who put it in the Oslo Accords that Palestine can never appeal to a global justice system? It's sort of like those tenancy contracts that make you sign to agree the landlord can go against the law and you have no recourse because you agreed he can, but you need a place to live so you sign.

Admittedly, my post was not on par with refutations based on a single out of context sentence in a Wikipedia article.

Nevertheless, I do not see derailing the topic with an emotive evocation of another treaty violation to be the paragon of seriousness as well. Note that I was not even denying anything nor glossing it over - simply stating that there are numerous infractions of agreements by both sides. Guess even that is hard to accept, got to be all of nothing (or at the very least, someone needs to be shown to bear the lion's share of the blame). But you were going on about being serious...?

The problem with many posters commenting on these issues is that they cannot avoid straying into all directions. Next thing you know someone is bound to bring up suicide attacks, then someone else throws in illegal settlements, and so on and so forth.

As to who put it in the Oslo Accords, I couldn't say - wasn't there. Probably an Israeli or USA thing. What of it? The Palestinians were not forced to sign, there are numerous clauses which favor the interest of this side or another. The simplified analogy is, as usual, incorrect - the Palestinians can opt out of the Oslo Accords and seek alternative ways to achieve their goals. They could seek compensation, retribution, justice or whatever even for the current Israeli move (which by the way, they already did, Abbas complained to the UN about it).

Nothing in the OP regarding water issues, nothing in the linked article you replied to regarding water issues.

[Morch]

USA and Israel do not sign upto this court, and then they protest at the terror group wanting to sign upto this.

American lawyers are the best Jewish minds in the world.

Who are the best Jewish minds in the world (not Netanyahu that's for sure) is an interesting question. But I think not really so much a question for this thread any more than which are the best Arab minds in the world (not Abbas that's for sure).

Not to mention that the PA is not designated as a terrorist organization, by anyone.

What is often overlooked is that the UK does not consider Hamas a terror organisation, either. Just Hamas' military wing.

Well, it is also overlooked that neither the UK nor the Hamas are what the OP deals with, but there ya go...

[dexterm]

Israel are only interested in the destruction of Palestine and making anything that ever has been Palestine part of Israel.

They will not stop or accept anything other than the complete destruction of Palestine.

Israel wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians...stolen more land while supposedly negotiating for 22 years now! That's why it's deflection.

Whether Israelis support it or not, a one state solution is becoming inevitable...there's no land left for a viable Palestinian state. So much for Israeli intelligence.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians

That is because the Egyptians ACCEPTED the peace deal. The Palestinians keep REFUSING one. That is how it works.

[ggold]

It's blackmail. Don't sue us or expose our crimes, or we'll make life difficult for you.

I am not surprised at Israel's attitude; it's the same from bully's and criminals everywhere. I am, though, left wondering how the US can keep condoning this sort of blatantly aggressive behavior.

Join the ICC yourself, Israel, start following moral and legal practices, and sue those with whom you have a gripe, not perpetuate criminal and nasty activities.

the only ones who are perpetuating criminal behavior is the palestinians. funny though that you think the US have condoned this. obviously you don't know what you are talking about. how will joining the ICC or having the UN force a deadline for withdrawal on Israel actually create an atmosphere for peace, Abbas has deliberately done this to avoid making peace. They have pressed the self destruct button, Even the US are thinking of withholding they financial assistance they give the palestinians.

Also the palestinians owe over 1billion dollars for electricity to their towns, which they have not paid or show any sign of paying. Who says the ICC will accept the PA into the ICC, it is far from certain and even if they were accepted, by their own admission the Palestinians have done worse than the Israelis.

[ggold]

Isael wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians...stolen more land while supposedly negotiating for 22 years now! That's why it's deflection.

Whether Israelis support it or not, a one state solution is becoming inevitable...there's no land left for a viable Palestinian state. So much for Israeli intelligence.

here we go again with the return of land again. you are like a broken record. repeating the same old tripe. The Palestinians rejected four attempts at a peace deal. It is the Arabs who do not want peace. But who does Israel talk with the PA or Hamas, they don't even get on with themselves. There is no one on the arab side to talk with anymore.

But you are right about one thing it is now too late to consider a Palestinian state along side Israel. 43% of Gazans and 23% of west bank arabs want to immigrate. So Israel should help these arabs leave these areas to other arab states. It seams the arab on the street has just about as much trust with their own PA and Hamas as they do for Israel.

Don't think for one minute the arabs will want to stay in Israel, they won't.

[ggold]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

shame more palestinians aren't dying from thirst! please excuse me, Just going for a swim in one of the millions of swimming pools filled with stolen water!

[Morch]

Israel wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians...stolen more land while supposedly negotiating for 22 years now! That's why it's deflection.

Whether Israelis support it or not, a one state solution is becoming inevitable...there's no land left for a viable Palestinian state. So much for Israeli intelligence.

Yeah, but what you posted was "Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection" - so once again, how was Israel not serious with the Egyptians and the Jordanians, with which there are long standing peace agreements? If your comment was a limited reference to the Palestinians, than do stop with them exaggerations.

The Oslo Accords never stipulated that 100% of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip will be handed to the Palestinians.

And again, what you posted was "Israel should do what it intended all along...etc", without no support. Now, it seems that it does not matter if it was or wasn't Israel's plan, as long as it fits the agenda presented in the post. Well done.

As for repeating the "no land left", this is simply out of touch with reality. Can't recall the Palestinians making this claim even. The issues are more with territorial continuity, not quite the same thing.

There are so many real facts, issues and grievances one supporting the Palestinian side could use against Israel, it boggles the mind that there is any need to resort to half-truths, incorrect facts, exaggerations and hyperbole.

[Seastallion]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

shame more palestinians aren't dying from thirst! please excuse me, Just going for a swim in one of the millions of swimming pools filled with stolen water!

As in the other thread, but a different poster....there you go folks, the attitude of the pro-Zionist team that revel in children suffering.

[Morch]

It's blackmail. Don't sue us or expose our crimes, or we'll make life difficult for you.

I am not surprised at Israel's attitude; it's the same from bully's and criminals everywhere. I am, though, left wondering how the US can keep condoning this sort of blatantly aggressive behavior.

Join the ICC yourself, Israel, start following moral and legal practices, and sue those with whom you have a gripe, not perpetuate criminal and nasty activities.

the only ones who are perpetuating criminal behavior is the palestinians. funny though that you think the US have condoned this. obviously you don't know what you are talking about. how will joining the ICC or having the UN force a deadline for withdrawal on Israel actually create an atmosphere for peace, Abbas has deliberately done this to avoid making peace. They have pressed the self destruct button, Even the US are thinking of withholding they financial assistance they give the palestinians.

Also the palestinians owe over 1billion dollars for electricity to their towns, which they have not paid or show any sign of paying. Who says the ICC will accept the PA into the ICC, it is far from certain and even if they were accepted, by their own admission the Palestinians have done worse than the Israelis.

Saying that only the Palestinians have done wrong is out of touch with reality on many levels. The Palestinians may not be saints, but Israel definitely breached the agreements many a time. Even the fact that the Palestinians themselves violated the agreements by going to the UNSC and ICC, does not make Israel withholding their tax revenues any less of a violation.

Joining the ICC or trying to force a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal through the UN may not create an atmosphere of peace, but not as if the current atmosphere is peaceful. Abbas did not do this to avoid making peace - there are no peace negotiations for quite a while now (due to issues on both sides). It is not the case that had Abbas refrained from going to the UNSC or take the ICC move, the peace process would have seen progress.

The USA may be bound to cut its own aid to the Palestinians due to the letter of the law, and the current political conditions in the states. That is not to say that they are thrilled about it, and indeed they have expressed displeasure over Israel's move (which is not sanctioned in any relevant agreement or law).

The Palestinian debts to Israel are substantial, but do not reach the sum quoted.

The ICC indicated that it will accept Palestine as a member, the process takes about two months.

Not aware that the Palestinian admitted to doing worse than the Israelis.

[ggold]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

shame more palestinians aren't dying from thirst! please excuse me, Just going for a swim in one of the millions of swimming pools filled with stolen water!

As in the other thread, but a different poster....there you go folks, the attitude of the pro-Zionist team that revel in children suffering.

Well at least I won't accuse you of being off topic even when you are, What exactly has water to do with withholding of taxes? Even if you were on topic can you not see my sarcasm, You have so exagerated this rubbish about stealing water from under the feet of the arabs! you are trying to give the impression that palestinians are dying from thirst Just how many private swimming pools do you think there are in Israel? that it would effect the arabs?

Really hard to take anything you say seriously, when its rubbish.

[Morch]

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians...stolen more land while supposedly negotiating for 22 years now! That's why it's deflection.

Whether Israelis support it or not, a one state solution is becoming inevitable...there's no land left for a viable Palestinian state. So much for Israeli intelligence.

here we go again with the return of land again. you are like a broken record. repeating the same old tripe. The Palestinians rejected four attempts at a peace deal. It is the Arabs who do not want peace. But who does Israel talk with the PA or Hamas, they don't even get on with themselves. There is no one on the arab side to talk with anymore.

But you are right about one thing it is now too late to consider a Palestinian state along side Israel. 43% of Gazans and 23% of west bank arabs want to immigrate. So Israel should help these arabs leave these areas to other arab states. It seams the arab on the street has just about as much trust with their own PA and Hamas as they do for Israel.

Don't think for one minute the arabs will want to stay in Israel, they won't.

Not sure which four attempts rejected by the Palestinians are referred to. Not all peace deal offers made were viable, anyway. Certainly under Netanyahu nothing realistic was offered, if at all. Quite the contrary, Netanyahu did the best he could to prevent chances to promote peace. Needed to be said that the Palestinians supplied great excuses for this, first and foremost being the Fatah-Hamas split, which is indeed a major setback to any negotiations, no question there.

Not familiar with the figures claimed, but doubt that said Palestinians dream about moving to Arab states. As a comparison, it would be interesting to check just how many Israelis are fed up with things to the same degree. There was a decline in support for the Hamas on the general Arab public opinion, but this does not necessarily reflect on support to the Palestinians as a whole, or to the PA.

[ggold]

It's blackmail. Don't sue us or expose our crimes, or we'll make life difficult for you.

I am not surprised at Israel's attitude; it's the same from bully's and criminals everywhere. I am, though, left wondering how the US can keep condoning this sort of blatantly aggressive behavior.

Join the ICC yourself, Israel, start following moral and legal practices, and sue those with whom you have a gripe, not perpetuate criminal and nasty activities.

the only ones who are perpetuating criminal behavior is the palestinians. funny though that you think the US have condoned this. obviously you don't know what you are talking about. how will joining the ICC or having the UN force a deadline for withdrawal on Israel actually create an atmosphere for peace, Abbas has deliberately done this to avoid making peace. They have pressed the self destruct button, Even the US are thinking of withholding they financial assistance they give the palestinians.

Also the palestinians owe over 1billion dollars for electricity to their towns, which they have not paid or show any sign of paying. Who says the ICC will accept the PA into the ICC, it is far from certain and even if they were accepted, by their own admission the Palestinians have done worse than the Israelis.

Saying that only the Palestinians have done wrong is out of touch with reality on many levels. The Palestinians may not be saints, but Israel definitely breached the agreements many a time. Even the fact that the Palestinians themselves violated the agreements by going to the UNSC and ICC, does not make Israel withholding their tax revenues any less of a violation.

Joining the ICC or trying to force a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal through the UN may not create an atmosphere of peace, but not as if the current atmosphere is peaceful. Abbas did not do this to avoid making peace - there are no peace negotiations for quite a while now (due to issues on both sides). It is not the case that had Abbas refrained from going to the UNSC or take the ICC move, the peace process would have seen progress.

The USA may be bound to cut its own aid to the Palestinians due to the letter of the law, and the current political conditions in the states. That is not to say that they are thrilled about it, and indeed they have expressed displeasure over Israel's move (which is not sanctioned in any relevant agreement or law).

The Palestinian debts to Israel are substantial, but do not reach the sum quoted.

The ICC indicated that it will accept Palestine as a member, the process takes about two months.

Not aware that the Palestinian admitted to doing worse than the Israelis.

I'm certainly not saying that Israel hasn't gone against the Oslo accord, however in relation to the withholding of taxes and Americas displeasure (Obama's) at that move and even their own withholding of aid money, I am correct.

OK it might be a billion shekels the point is Israel would be justified in holding back some of these funds to pay off this debt.

As far as the ICC accepting or not accepting the PA as a member state, depending on who you read, there is a suggestion that the ICC might not accept them, then there is the question as to whether the ICC can investigate any of the claims made by the PA.

The Pali's UN envoy is on record as saying that it would be hard for the PA to charge Israel with anything when they, Hamas have fired thousands of rockets at civilian targets, in other words committing crimes against humanity, or attempting to! not to mention the use of human shields etc etc.

[ggold]

Are the long standing peace agreements between Israel and Egypt and Jordan are "deflection"?

Or was "neighbors" meant to imply only the Palestinians? What were the Oslo Accords a deflection of?

Amazing the amount of incorrect information that can go into one line....

Other than saying so, do you have any support that your vision for a one-state solution is something widely advanced and accepted in Israel? How does the claim that negotiations were a "deflection" goes along with this view? The Israelis could have just skipped this complication and get on with their nefarious "plan"?

Israel got peace in return for 100% of land with Egypt. The Israelis have done entirely the opposite with the Palestinians...stolen more land while supposedly negotiating for 22 years now! That's why it's deflection.

Whether Israelis support it or not, a one state solution is becoming inevitable...there's no land left for a viable Palestinian state. So much for Israeli intelligence.

here we go again with the return of land again. you are like a broken record. repeating the same old tripe. The Palestinians rejected four attempts at a peace deal. It is the Arabs who do not want peace. But who does Israel talk with the PA or Hamas, they don't even get on with themselves. There is no one on the arab side to talk with anymore.

But you are right about one thing it is now too late to consider a Palestinian state along side Israel. 43% of Gazans and 23% of west bank arabs want to immigrate. So Israel should help these arabs leave these areas to other arab states. It seams the arab on the street has just about as much trust with their own PA and Hamas as they do for Israel.

Don't think for one minute the arabs will want to stay in Israel, they won't.

Not sure which four attempts rejected by the Palestinians are referred to. Not all peace deal offers made were viable, anyway. Certainly under Netanyahu nothing realistic was offered, if at all. Quite the contrary, Netanyahu did the best he could to prevent chances to promote peace. Needed to be said that the Palestinians supplied great excuses for this, first and foremost being the Fatah-Hamas split, which is indeed a major setback to any negotiations, no question there.

Not familiar with the figures claimed, but doubt that said Palestinians dream about moving to Arab states. As a comparison, it would be interesting to check just how many Israelis are fed up with things to the same degree. There was a decline in support for the Hamas on the general Arab public opinion, but this does not necessarily reflect on support to the Palestinians as a whole, or to the PA.

Fearful of Israel and distrustful of their own leadership, 43% of Gazans and 23% of West Bankers seek emigration, poll finds; 77% back rocket attacks on Israel; Hamas popularity soaring

Read more: 'Most Palestinians believe Israel wants to destroy Al-Aqsa' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/most-palestinians-believe-israel-wants-to-destroy-al-aqsa/#ixzz3O2bdLGnb

Most if not all Israelis want peace, Just that there are different views of attaining that peace. I agree Netanyahu on the face of it hasn't done much to help that peace but then neither has Abbas! In fact I would say that he has succeeded in insuring Netanyahu will get re-elected, with the latest moves in the UN and ICC.

Abbas has miss calculated even his threats of handing back the keys to the occupiers? are empty threats with no real objective behind them other than confrontation. Who is there to make peace with? that is the real question.

Unfortunately I think there will be another war with Hamas, There will be no peace as long as Hamas refuse to tame their demands and accept Israel as a country.

The problem is that as much as the Pali's are losing patience, so is Israel losing patience with the arabs. So yes the time is up for a palestinian state if Abbas and Hamas continue on this path.

Israel has seen the hate (for want of better words) around the world because of the last Gaza conflict. The judgement next time around will be that of damned if we don't damned if we do. It is very likely the gloves will come off, Gaza will be returned to desert, no rebuilding possible.

Jordan is getting closer to being called Palestine than the west bank or Gaza ever will. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Edited January 6, 2015 by ggold

[Morch]

It's blackmail. Don't sue us or expose our crimes, or we'll make life difficult for you.

I am not surprised at Israel's attitude; it's the same from bully's and criminals everywhere. I am, though, left wondering how the US can keep condoning this sort of blatantly aggressive behavior.

Join the ICC yourself, Israel, start following moral and legal practices, and sue those with whom you have a gripe, not perpetuate criminal and nasty activities.

the only ones who are perpetuating criminal behavior is the palestinians. funny though that you think the US have condoned this. obviously you don't know what you are talking about. how will joining the ICC or having the UN force a deadline for withdrawal on Israel actually create an atmosphere for peace, Abbas has deliberately done this to avoid making peace. They have pressed the self destruct button, Even the US are thinking of withholding they financial assistance they give the palestinians.

Also the palestinians owe over 1billion dollars for electricity to their towns, which they have not paid or show any sign of paying. Who says the ICC will accept the PA into the ICC, it is far from certain and even if they were accepted, by their own admission the Palestinians have done worse than the Israelis.

Saying that only the Palestinians have done wrong is out of touch with reality on many levels. The Palestinians may not be saints, but Israel definitely breached the agreements many a time. Even the fact that the Palestinians themselves violated the agreements by going to the UNSC and ICC, does not make Israel withholding their tax revenues any less of a violation.

Joining the ICC or trying to force a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal through the UN may not create an atmosphere of peace, but not as if the current atmosphere is peaceful. Abbas did not do this to avoid making peace - there are no peace negotiations for quite a while now (due to issues on both sides). It is not the case that had Abbas refrained from going to the UNSC or take the ICC move, the peace process would have seen progress.

The USA may be bound to cut its own aid to the Palestinians due to the letter of the law, and the current political conditions in the states. That is not to say that they are thrilled about it, and indeed they have expressed displeasure over Israel's move (which is not sanctioned in any relevant agreement or law).

The Palestinian debts to Israel are substantial, but do not reach the sum quoted.

The ICC indicated that it will accept Palestine as a member, the process takes about two months.

Not aware that the Palestinian admitted to doing worse than the Israelis.

I'm certainly not saying that Israel hasn't gone against the Oslo accord, however in relation to the withholding of taxes and Americas displeasure (Obama's) at that move and even their own withholding of aid money, I am correct.

OK it might be a billion shekels the point is Israel would be justified in holding back some of these funds to pay off this debt.

As far as the ICC accepting or not accepting the PA as a member state, depending on who you read, there is a suggestion that the ICC might not accept them, then there is the question as to whether the ICC can investigate any of the claims made by the PA.

The Pali's UN envoy is on record as saying that it would be hard for the PA to charge Israel with anything when they, Hamas have fired thousands of rockets at civilian targets, in other words committing crimes against humanity, or attempting to! not to mention the use of human shields etc etc.

A billion NIS sounds more like it. While a substantial sum, it's been there for a long while, and the sky did not fall on Israel or on its power company. There was no urgency expressed in collecting this overdue debt (not that it is ok) a month earlier. There is also no clear mechanism for Israel to deduct the debt from the specific tax revenue collected. Call it yet another instance of the Oslo Accords which malfunctioned. There usually needs to be a proper legal process to allow appropriation of this sort, which seems to be lacking here. No wonder that Netanyahu was warned this could backfire and supply the Palestinians with another case against Israel.

Most of the sources I read which postulate great difficulties in the Palestinians getting accepted by the ICC tend to have right wing pro-Israeli leanings. The ICC itself, on the last occasion this was brought up, held the main issue to be getting assurances that all Palestinian factions will comply, this condition was satisfied (without getting into how much water it will holds). Barring some unforeseen crisis among Palestinians, or a tremendous amount of USA pressure being successfully brought to bear, it is more likely that the Palestinians will get their wish.

Yes, he did say that near the beginning of the Gaza fighting. However, if memory serves, that was prior to Israel's land move, while casualties among the Palestinians were still relatively low, and IDF actions more strictly controlled. Also, the rockets were fired by Hamas, not the PA, so the implications toward PA officials are unclear. There are later statements made, even by the same official which support the move. I think this got a lot to do with Hamas signing the assurances requested. Regardless, it was not that he said the Palestinians in general did worse than the Israelis, but rather that the Hamas did.

[Ulysses G.]

Jordan is getting closer to being called Palestine than the west bank or Gaza ever will. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Several Jordanian Kings have shared your sentiments. Over 70% of the 2.8 million population of Jordan are Palestinian Arabs and it's land was part of the Mandate for Palestine. There is no difference between them in language, ethnicity or social customs.

Palestine and Jordan are one - King Abdullah

The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,

-King Hussein of Jordan

[Morch]

here we go again with the return of land again. you are like a broken record. repeating the same old tripe. The Palestinians rejected four attempts at a peace deal. It is the Arabs who do not want peace. But who does Israel talk with the PA or Hamas, they don't even get on with themselves. There is no one on the arab side to talk with anymore.

But you are right about one thing it is now too late to consider a Palestinian state along side Israel. 43% of Gazans and 23% of west bank arabs want to immigrate. So Israel should help these arabs leave these areas to other arab states. It seams the arab on the street has just about as much trust with their own PA and Hamas as they do for Israel.

Don't think for one minute the arabs will want to stay in Israel, they won't.

Not sure which four attempts rejected by the Palestinians are referred to. Not all peace deal offers made were viable, anyway. Certainly under Netanyahu nothing realistic was offered, if at all. Quite the contrary, Netanyahu did the best he could to prevent chances to promote peace. Needed to be said that the Palestinians supplied great excuses for this, first and foremost being the Fatah-Hamas split, which is indeed a major setback to any negotiations, no question there.

Not familiar with the figures claimed, but doubt that said Palestinians dream about moving to Arab states. As a comparison, it would be interesting to check just how many Israelis are fed up with things to the same degree. There was a decline in support for the Hamas on the general Arab public opinion, but this does not necessarily reflect on support to the Palestinians as a whole, or to the PA.

Fearful of Israel and distrustful of their own leadership, 43% of Gazans and 23% of West Bankers seek emigration, poll finds; 77% back rocket attacks on Israel; Hamas popularity soaring

Read more: 'Most Palestinians believe Israel wants to destroy Al-Aqsa' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/most-palestinians-believe-israel-wants-to-destroy-al-aqsa/#ixzz3O2bdLGnb

Most if not all Israelis want peace, Just that there are different views of attaining that peace. I agree Netanyahu on the face of it hasn't done much to help that peace but then neither has Abbas! In fact I would say that he has succeeded in insuring Netanyahu will get re-elected, with the latest moves in the UN and ICC.

Abbas has miss calculated even his threats of handing back the keys to the occupiers? are empty threats with no real objective behind them other than confrontation. Who is there to make peace with? that is the real question.

Unfortunately I think there will be another war with Hamas, There will be no peace as long as Hamas refuse to tame their demands and accept Israel as a country.

The problem is that as much as the Pali's are losing patience, so is Israel losing patience with the arabs. So yes the time is up for a palestinian state if Abbas and Hamas continue on this path.

Israel has seen the hate (for want of better words) around the world because of the last Gaza conflict. The judgement next time around will be that of damned if we don't damned if we do. It is very likely the gloves will come off, Gaza will be returned to desert, no rebuilding possible.

Jordan is getting closer to being called Palestine than the west bank or Gaza ever will. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Thanks for the link. Still don't see that they dream about moving to Arab countries, though.

Saying that most Israelis want peace is not necessarily supported by election results. Nor does the it mean that what passes for peace in the eyes of Israelis would be considered as such by the Palestinians (and vice versa). More a case of many Israelis say they want peace, but not that keen on the compromises involved (and again, mirror image).

That Netanyahu "on the face it" derailed peace efforts must be one of them understatements, and he probably would have taken it as an insult. Abbas got way less political maneuvering space than Netanyahu. A somewhat proper equivalent would be trying to imagine a center/left Israeli government attempting to deal with the situation (shaky coalition, fiery opposition, and someone always with the lighter to the powder keg). More a case of leaders on both sides not being up to the task. Remains to be seen what effect this will have on the Israeli elections, so far polls do not reflect a dramatic effect.

As for the repeated threats to stop security cooperation with Israel and/or to hand back responsibility over the West Bank to Israel - these are obviously not in the best interests of Abbas/Fatah/Palestinians. Then again, Abbas going to the UNSC was discarded as not very realistic, at the time. IMO, it will take further pushing by Israel to get to this stage, hopefully it will not come to pass - too many people are likely to get hurt or come under even more hardship.

Another round of hostilities in Gaza is possible, but this could happen even regardless of things between Israel and the PA, so kinda difficult to make a good assessment. The situation in Gaza is pretty dire now, what with harsh winter (in Middle Eastern terms), and rehabilitation efforts going slowly (mostly due to Fatah-Hamas issues, and donors not living up to promises) which could lead to another eruption of violence.

Jordan as the new Palestinian state is a bad bad bad idea on many fronts which been dealt with on past posts. Really OT to take this up again, though.

[ggold]

Saying that only the Palestinians have done wrong is out of touch with reality on many levels. The Palestinians may not be saints, but Israel definitely breached the agreements many a time. Even the fact that the Palestinians themselves violated the agreements by going to the UNSC and ICC, does not make Israel withholding their tax revenues any less of a violation.

Joining the ICC or trying to force a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal through the UN may not create an atmosphere of peace, but not as if the current atmosphere is peaceful. Abbas did not do this to avoid making peace - there are no peace negotiations for quite a while now (due to issues on both sides). It is not the case that had Abbas refrained from going to the UNSC or take the ICC move, the peace process would have seen progress.

The USA may be bound to cut its own aid to the Palestinians due to the letter of the law, and the current political conditions in the states. That is not to say that they are thrilled about it, and indeed they have expressed displeasure over Israel's move (which is not sanctioned in any relevant agreement or law).

The Palestinian debts to Israel are substantial, but do not reach the sum quoted.

The ICC indicated that it will accept Palestine as a member, the process takes about two months.

Not aware that the Palestinian admitted to doing worse than the Israelis.

I'm certainly not saying that Israel hasn't gone against the Oslo accord, however in relation to the withholding of taxes and Americas displeasure (Obama's) at that move and even their own withholding of aid money, I am correct.

OK it might be a billion shekels the point is Israel would be justified in holding back some of these funds to pay off this debt.

As far as the ICC accepting or not accepting the PA as a member state, depending on who you read, there is a suggestion that the ICC might not accept them, then there is the question as to whether the ICC can investigate any of the claims made by the PA.

The Pali's UN envoy is on record as saying that it would be hard for the PA to charge Israel with anything when they, Hamas have fired thousands of rockets at civilian targets, in other words committing crimes against humanity, or attempting to! not to mention the use of human shields etc etc.

A billion NIS sounds more like it. While a substantial sum, it's been there for a long while, and the sky did not fall on Israel or on its power company. There was no urgency expressed in collecting this overdue debt (not that it is ok) a month earlier. There is also no clear mechanism for Israel to deduct the debt from the specific tax revenue collected. Call it yet another instance of the Oslo Accords which malfunctioned. There usually needs to be a proper legal process to allow appropriation of this sort, which seems to be lacking here. No wonder that Netanyahu was warned this could backfire and supply the Palestinians with another case against Israel.

Most of the sources I read which postulate great difficulties in the Palestinians getting accepted by the ICC tend to have right wing pro-Israeli leanings. The ICC itself, on the last occasion this was brought up, held the main issue to be getting assurances that all Palestinian factions will comply, this condition was satisfied (without getting into how much water it will holds). Barring some unforeseen crisis among Palestinians, or a tremendous amount of USA pressure being successfully brought to bear, it is more likely that the Palestinians will get their wish.

Yes, he did say that near the beginning of the Gaza fighting. However, if memory serves, that was prior to Israel's land move, while casualties among the Palestinians were still relatively low, and IDF actions more strictly controlled. Also, the rockets were fired by Hamas, not the PA, so the implications toward PA officials are unclear. There are later statements made, even by the same official which support the move. I think this got a lot to do with Hamas signing the assurances requested. Regardless, it was not that he said the Palestinians in general did worse than the Israelis, but rather that the Hamas did.

I am curious about you're comment regarding land move? Israel is only consolidating the land that they have already built on, they have not as far as I am aware taken over swaths of land that could be construed as Palestinian land considering there is agreement about possible land swaps. It could be said that the Pali's are crying wolf on that one.

In fact Netanyahu has to all intents and purposes put a stop to any building on the west bank even though there are others saying that the proposed building should go ahead. Though recently he may have given go ahead because of the PA moves.

Does it matter If there is a Palestinian unity government who fired the rockets, Which part of the unity government is responsible, surely that would be Abbas as head of that government?

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors.

Do you ever get anything right?

Since 2000, there have been three serious negotiations that culminated in offers to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Bill Clinton’s parameters in 2000, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s offer in 2008, and Secretary of State John Kerry’s efforts last year. In each case, a proposal on all the core issues was made to Palestinian leaders and the answer was either “no” or no response.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/opinion/stop-giving-palestinians-a-pass.html?src=me

[Morch]

Saying that only the Palestinians have done wrong is out of touch with reality on many levels. The Palestinians may not be saints, but Israel definitely breached the agreements many a time. Even the fact that the Palestinians themselves violated the agreements by going to the UNSC and ICC, does not make Israel withholding their tax revenues any less of a violation.

Joining the ICC or trying to force a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal through the UN may not create an atmosphere of peace, but not as if the current atmosphere is peaceful. Abbas did not do this to avoid making peace - there are no peace negotiations for quite a while now (due to issues on both sides). It is not the case that had Abbas refrained from going to the UNSC or take the ICC move, the peace process would have seen progress.

The USA may be bound to cut its own aid to the Palestinians due to the letter of the law, and the current political conditions in the states. That is not to say that they are thrilled about it, and indeed they have expressed displeasure over Israel's move (which is not sanctioned in any relevant agreement or law).

The Palestinian debts to Israel are substantial, but do not reach the sum quoted.

The ICC indicated that it will accept Palestine as a member, the process takes about two months.

Not aware that the Palestinian admitted to doing worse than the Israelis.

I'm certainly not saying that Israel hasn't gone against the Oslo accord, however in relation to the withholding of taxes and Americas displeasure (Obama's) at that move and even their own withholding of aid money, I am correct.

OK it might be a billion shekels the point is Israel would be justified in holding back some of these funds to pay off this debt.

As far as the ICC accepting or not accepting the PA as a member state, depending on who you read, there is a suggestion that the ICC might not accept them, then there is the question as to whether the ICC can investigate any of the claims made by the PA.

The Pali's UN envoy is on record as saying that it would be hard for the PA to charge Israel with anything when they, Hamas have fired thousands of rockets at civilian targets, in other words committing crimes against humanity, or attempting to! not to mention the use of human shields etc etc.

A billion NIS sounds more like it. While a substantial sum, it's been there for a long while, and the sky did not fall on Israel or on its power company. There was no urgency expressed in collecting this overdue debt (not that it is ok) a month earlier. There is also no clear mechanism for Israel to deduct the debt from the specific tax revenue collected. Call it yet another instance of the Oslo Accords which malfunctioned. There usually needs to be a proper legal process to allow appropriation of this sort, which seems to be lacking here. No wonder that Netanyahu was warned this could backfire and supply the Palestinians with another case against Israel.

Most of the sources I read which postulate great difficulties in the Palestinians getting accepted by the ICC tend to have right wing pro-Israeli leanings. The ICC itself, on the last occasion this was brought up, held the main issue to be getting assurances that all Palestinian factions will comply, this condition was satisfied (without getting into how much water it will holds). Barring some unforeseen crisis among Palestinians, or a tremendous amount of USA pressure being successfully brought to bear, it is more likely that the Palestinians will get their wish.

Yes, he did say that near the beginning of the Gaza fighting. However, if memory serves, that was prior to Israel's land move, while casualties among the Palestinians were still relatively low, and IDF actions more strictly controlled. Also, the rockets were fired by Hamas, not the PA, so the implications toward PA officials are unclear. There are later statements made, even by the same official which support the move. I think this got a lot to do with Hamas signing the assurances requested. Regardless, it was not that he said the Palestinians in general did worse than the Israelis, but rather that the Hamas did.

I am curious about you're comment regarding land move? Israel is only consolidating the land that they have already built on, they have not as far as I am aware taken over swaths of land that could be construed as Palestinian land considering there is agreement about possible land swaps. It could be said that the Pali's are crying wolf on that one.

In fact Netanyahu has to all intents and purposes put a stop to any building on the west bank even though there are others saying that the proposed building should go ahead. Though recently he may have given go ahead because of the PA moves.

Does it matter If there is a Palestinian unity government who fired the rockets, Which part of the unity government is responsible, surely that would be Abbas as head of that government?

The Israeli land move was a reference to the Gaza fighting, should have been ground move - as when the ground troops crossed the border.

Regardless, the claim that no further illegal building took place, or that no new illegals settlements were created is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to this effect, usually not from Israeli government sources though (but on this issue, the main NGOs active in the field are rather reliable). Netanyahu said he stopped building, but then he says a lot of things. The truth is buried under a hill of legal construction terms, budgets and governments decisions carried from previous years, unsanctioned or partially sanctioned actions by the illegal settlers.

Not a legal expert, and this is a tricky question on a good day. The thing is that the Palestinian Unity government is a construct which can be presented in several ways, depending on need. The Hamas representatives are third/fourth tier (legal worries by the PA and image considerations by Hamas), and not members of the military wing. There was no agreed solution (and there still isn't one) regarding control of the Hamas's armed wing, so it is dubious Abbas could be accountable for Hamas actions - bear in mind he did cooperate with Israel with regard to operations in the West Bank, and did speak up against the rocket thing.

[ggold]

here we go again with the return of land again. you are like a broken record. repeating the same old tripe. The Palestinians rejected four attempts at a peace deal. It is the Arabs who do not want peace. But who does Israel talk with the PA or Hamas, they don't even get on with themselves. There is no one on the arab side to talk with anymore.

But you are right about one thing it is now too late to consider a Palestinian state along side Israel. 43% of Gazans and 23% of west bank arabs want to immigrate. So Israel should help these arabs leave these areas to other arab states. It seams the arab on the street has just about as much trust with their own PA and Hamas as they do for Israel.

Don't think for one minute the arabs will want to stay in Israel, they won't.

Not sure which four attempts rejected by the Palestinians are referred to. Not all peace deal offers made were viable, anyway. Certainly under Netanyahu nothing realistic was offered, if at all. Quite the contrary, Netanyahu did the best he could to prevent chances to promote peace. Needed to be said that the Palestinians supplied great excuses for this, first and foremost being the Fatah-Hamas split, which is indeed a major setback to any negotiations, no question there.

Not familiar with the figures claimed, but doubt that said Palestinians dream about moving to Arab states. As a comparison, it would be interesting to check just how many Israelis are fed up with things to the same degree. There was a decline in support for the Hamas on the general Arab public opinion, but this does not necessarily reflect on support to the Palestinians as a whole, or to the PA.

Fearful of Israel and distrustful of their own leadership, 43% of Gazans and 23% of West Bankers seek emigration, poll finds; 77% back rocket attacks on Israel; Hamas popularity soaring

Read more: 'Most Palestinians believe Israel wants to destroy Al-Aqsa' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/most-palestinians-believe-israel-wants-to-destroy-al-aqsa/#ixzz3O2bdLGnb

Most if not all Israelis want peace, Just that there are different views of attaining that peace. I agree Netanyahu on the face of it hasn't done much to help that peace but then neither has Abbas! In fact I would say that he has succeeded in insuring Netanyahu will get re-elected, with the latest moves in the UN and ICC.

Abbas has miss calculated even his threats of handing back the keys to the occupiers? are empty threats with no real objective behind them other than confrontation. Who is there to make peace with? that is the real question.

Unfortunately I think there will be another war with Hamas, There will be no peace as long as Hamas refuse to tame their demands and accept Israel as a country.

The problem is that as much as the Pali's are losing patience, so is Israel losing patience with the arabs. So yes the time is up for a palestinian state if Abbas and Hamas continue on this path.

Israel has seen the hate (for want of better words) around the world because of the last Gaza conflict. The judgement next time around will be that of damned if we don't damned if we do. It is very likely the gloves will come off, Gaza will be returned to desert, no rebuilding possible.

Jordan is getting closer to being called Palestine than the west bank or Gaza ever will. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Thanks for the link. Still don't see that they dream about moving to Arab countries, though.

Saying that most Israelis want peace is not necessarily supported by election results. Nor does the it mean that what passes for peace in the eyes of Israelis would be considered as such by the Palestinians (and vice versa). More a case of many Israelis say they want peace, but not that keen on the compromises involved (and again, mirror image).

That Netanyahu "on the face it" derailed peace efforts must be one of them understatements, and he probably would have taken it as an insult. Abbas got way less political maneuvering space than Netanyahu. A somewhat proper equivalent would be trying to imagine a center/left Israeli government attempting to deal with the situation (shaky coalition, fiery opposition, and someone always with the lighter to the powder keg). More a case of leaders on both sides not being up to the task. Remains to be seen what effect this will have on the Israeli elections, so far polls do not reflect a dramatic effect.

As for the repeated threats to stop security cooperation with Israel and/or to hand back responsibility over the West Bank to Israel - these are obviously not in the best interests of Abbas/Fatah/Palestinians. Then again, Abbas going to the UNSC was discarded as not very realistic, at the time. IMO, it will take further pushing by Israel to get to this stage, hopefully it will not come to pass - too many people are likely to get hurt or come under even more hardship.

Another round of hostilities in Gaza is possible, but this could happen even regardless of things between Israel and the PA, so kinda difficult to make a good assessment. The situation in Gaza is pretty dire now, what with harsh winter (in Middle Eastern terms), and rehabilitation efforts going slowly (mostly due to Fatah-Hamas issues, and donors not living up to promises) which could lead to another eruption of violence.

Jordan as the new Palestinian state is a bad bad bad idea on many fronts which been dealt with on past posts. Really OT to take this up again, though.

I can't disagree with you, It has been difficult to understand Netanyahu, other than to say he might have been in a harder position had there not been a Pali unity government. It has sort of let him off the hook. Also with Abbas it has been hard to understand his reasoning for going to the UNSC and now the ICC because it puts him on a confrontational course with Israel and doesn't achieve anything for the arabs.

It has been as if he is helping Netanyahu win the next elections, as you say there has been no dramatic effect, That's because BiBi is virtually guaranteed to win. I would be surprised if that changed come election time.

I think the donor countries are also not to keen on giving funds to Hamas, So I don't expect that situation to improve anytime soon. But I would guess that suites Abbas as much as anyone else? As for political maneuvering, seems he has all the help he needs with the UN and soon the ICC. I think you underestimate his ability. It may appear he is playing to the domestic audience, But it has also effected Israels relations with other countries.

The fact is the Palestinians have been used by their arab brothers against Israel. They were all hoping up to 1973 that they would push the Jews into the sea, But that has not happened and never will. If a Pali wants to go live in an Arab country he has to take citizenship of that country, That's how much the other arabs think of them.

Now there are other priorities with Syria and Iraq etc. Even Iran is a worry for the gulf states. Hamas are no better than ISIS or Al Qeuda even in the eyes of other arabs.

From Israels point of view Jordan as Palestine is what it should be.The Jordan river as a protectable secure boarder. If that is bad, I don't know why it would be?

[ggold]

I'm certainly not saying that Israel hasn't gone against the Oslo accord, however in relation to the withholding of taxes and Americas displeasure (Obama's) at that move and even their own withholding of aid money, I am correct.

OK it might be a billion shekels the point is Israel would be justified in holding back some of these funds to pay off this debt.

As far as the ICC accepting or not accepting the PA as a member state, depending on who you read, there is a suggestion that the ICC might not accept them, then there is the question as to whether the ICC can investigate any of the claims made by the PA.

The Pali's UN envoy is on record as saying that it would be hard for the PA to charge Israel with anything when they, Hamas have fired thousands of rockets at civilian targets, in other words committing crimes against humanity, or attempting to! not to mention the use of human shields etc etc.

A billion NIS sounds more like it. While a substantial sum, it's been there for a long while, and the sky did not fall on Israel or on its power company. There was no urgency expressed in collecting this overdue debt (not that it is ok) a month earlier. There is also no clear mechanism for Israel to deduct the debt from the specific tax revenue collected. Call it yet another instance of the Oslo Accords which malfunctioned. There usually needs to be a proper legal process to allow appropriation of this sort, which seems to be lacking here. No wonder that Netanyahu was warned this could backfire and supply the Palestinians with another case against Israel.

Most of the sources I read which postulate great difficulties in the Palestinians getting accepted by the ICC tend to have right wing pro-Israeli leanings. The ICC itself, on the last occasion this was brought up, held the main issue to be getting assurances that all Palestinian factions will comply, this condition was satisfied (without getting into how much water it will holds). Barring some unforeseen crisis among Palestinians, or a tremendous amount of USA pressure being successfully brought to bear, it is more likely that the Palestinians will get their wish.

Yes, he did say that near the beginning of the Gaza fighting. However, if memory serves, that was prior to Israel's land move, while casualties among the Palestinians were still relatively low, and IDF actions more strictly controlled. Also, the rockets were fired by Hamas, not the PA, so the implications toward PA officials are unclear. There are later statements made, even by the same official which support the move. I think this got a lot to do with Hamas signing the assurances requested. Regardless, it was not that he said the Palestinians in general did worse than the Israelis, but rather that the Hamas did.

I am curious about you're comment regarding land move? Israel is only consolidating the land that they have already built on, they have not as far as I am aware taken over swaths of land that could be construed as Palestinian land considering there is agreement about possible land swaps. It could be said that the Pali's are crying wolf on that one.

In fact Netanyahu has to all intents and purposes put a stop to any building on the west bank even though there are others saying that the proposed building should go ahead. Though recently he may have given go ahead because of the PA moves.

Does it matter If there is a Palestinian unity government who fired the rockets, Which part of the unity government is responsible, surely that would be Abbas as head of that government?

The Israeli land move was a reference to the Gaza fighting, should have been ground move - as when the ground troops crossed the border.

Regardless, the claim that no further illegal building took place, or that no new illegals settlements were created is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to this effect, usually not from Israeli government sources though (but on this issue, the main NGOs active in the field are rather reliable). Netanyahu said he stopped building, but then he says a lot of things. The truth is buried under a hill of legal construction terms, budgets and governments decisions carried from previous years, unsanctioned or partially sanctioned actions by the illegal settlers.

Not a legal expert, and this is a tricky question on a good day. The thing is that the Palestinian Unity government is a construct which can be presented in several ways, depending on need. The Hamas representatives are third/fourth tier (legal worries by the PA and image considerations by Hamas), and not members of the military wing. There was no agreed solution (and there still isn't one) regarding control of the Hamas's armed wing, so it is dubious Abbas could be accountable for Hamas actions - bear in mind he did cooperate with Israel with regard to operations in the West Bank, and did speak up against the rocket thing.

Ok you mean ground incursion maybe! Yes Israel should have just sat there and let the rockets land where they will! Seriously? If I came over to your house and threw bottles at your windows, you would say something to me, Yes? If I was to continue to do that day in day out, how long before you want to punch my lights out?

The only real problem was the job was not finished, they should have destroyed Hamas. end of.

With respects until there is a settlement of some sort or another who owns the land is a mute point, Israel has as much of a claim as the Plai's do. Settlements that were built under government sanctions were built for a reason, there is a will to swap land if and when the Palestinians are willing to make peace. But as I have said the window is closing fast. Palestinians will be irrelevant in a dacades time if they don't show willing.

[ggold]

Jordan is getting closer to being called Palestine than the west bank or Gaza ever will. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Several Jordanian Kings have shared your sentiments. Over 70% of the 2.8 million population of Jordan are Palestinian Arabs and it's land was part of the Mandate for Palestine. There is no difference between them in language, ethnicity or social customs.

Palestine and Jordan are one - King Abdullah

The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,

-King Hussein of Jordan

Hussein's father declare the west bank as being part of Jordan back in the 40's, to the annoyance of the arab league! Even Abbas is Jordanian. So Israel needs to make peace with Jordan, not the pali's!

[Morch]

A billion NIS sounds more like it. While a substantial sum, it's been there for a long while, and the sky did not fall on Israel or on its power company. There was no urgency expressed in collecting this overdue debt (not that it is ok) a month earlier. There is also no clear mechanism for Israel to deduct the debt from the specific tax revenue collected. Call it yet another instance of the Oslo Accords which malfunctioned. There usually needs to be a proper legal process to allow appropriation of this sort, which seems to be lacking here. No wonder that Netanyahu was warned this could backfire and supply the Palestinians with another case against Israel.

Most of the sources I read which postulate great difficulties in the Palestinians getting accepted by the ICC tend to have right wing pro-Israeli leanings. The ICC itself, on the last occasion this was brought up, held the main issue to be getting assurances that all Palestinian factions will comply, this condition was satisfied (without getting into how much water it will holds). Barring some unforeseen crisis among Palestinians, or a tremendous amount of USA pressure being successfully brought to bear, it is more likely that the Palestinians will get their wish.

Yes, he did say that near the beginning of the Gaza fighting. However, if memory serves, that was prior to Israel's land move, while casualties among the Palestinians were still relatively low, and IDF actions more strictly controlled. Also, the rockets were fired by Hamas, not the PA, so the implications toward PA officials are unclear. There are later statements made, even by the same official which support the move. I think this got a lot to do with Hamas signing the assurances requested. Regardless, it was not that he said the Palestinians in general did worse than the Israelis, but rather that the Hamas did.

I am curious about you're comment regarding land move? Israel is only consolidating the land that they have already built on, they have not as far as I am aware taken over swaths of land that could be construed as Palestinian land considering there is agreement about possible land swaps. It could be said that the Pali's are crying wolf on that one.

In fact Netanyahu has to all intents and purposes put a stop to any building on the west bank even though there are others saying that the proposed building should go ahead. Though recently he may have given go ahead because of the PA moves.

Does it matter If there is a Palestinian unity government who fired the rockets, Which part of the unity government is responsible, surely that would be Abbas as head of that government?

The Israeli land move was a reference to the Gaza fighting, should have been ground move - as when the ground troops crossed the border.

Regardless, the claim that no further illegal building took place, or that no new illegals settlements were created is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to this effect, usually not from Israeli government sources though (but on this issue, the main NGOs active in the field are rather reliable). Netanyahu said he stopped building, but then he says a lot of things. The truth is buried under a hill of legal construction terms, budgets and governments decisions carried from previous years, unsanctioned or partially sanctioned actions by the illegal settlers.

Not a legal expert, and this is a tricky question on a good day. The thing is that the Palestinian Unity government is a construct which can be presented in several ways, depending on need. The Hamas representatives are third/fourth tier (legal worries by the PA and image considerations by Hamas), and not members of the military wing. There was no agreed solution (and there still isn't one) regarding control of the Hamas's armed wing, so it is dubious Abbas could be accountable for Hamas actions - bear in mind he did cooperate with Israel with regard to operations in the West Bank, and did speak up against the rocket thing.

Ok you mean ground incursion maybe! Yes Israel should have just sat there and let the rockets land where they will! Seriously? If I came over to your house and threw bottles at your windows, you would say something to me, Yes? If I was to continue to do that day in day out, how long before you want to punch my lights out?

The only real problem was the job was not finished, they should have destroyed Hamas. end of.

With respects until there is a settlement of some sort or another who owns the land is a mute point, Israel has as much of a claim as the Plai's do. Settlements that were built under government sanctions were built for a reason, there is a will to swap land if and when the Palestinians are willing to make peace. But as I have said the window is closing fast. Palestinians will be irrelevant in a dacades time if they don't show willing.

Not sure what the rage expressed in the first paragraph is all about - I was just saying that the Palestinian's official statement was made, if memory serves, prior to the Israeli ground incursion and before casualties mounted up. At that phase, which was mostly air strikes, the legal situation was somewhat different. It was not a comment regarding justification of the ground incursion.

The international law and world opinion seem to have different takes than yours regarding Israel's rights in the West Bank. One could ignore them, but as Israel itself agreed, on several occasions, to halt/limit/refrain from further building activities in the West Bank (since the Oslo Accords, that is, not just recently), and repeatedly breached those terms, perhaps not so easy to deny. On two separate reports commissioned by Israeli governments (and coming with politically opposite conclusions) one thing stood as a similarity - both reports regarding many of the settlements activities as being unlawful with regards to Israeli law itself. If this is not enough - the Israeli Supreme Court handed a few verdicts forcing governments to dismantle certain illegal settlements, for the most recent one Goggle Amona.

Sorry, not going to be pulled into further debate regarding fighting in Gaza or Jordan as Palestinian homeland as they are really OT.

[ggold]

I am curious about you're comment regarding land move? Israel is only consolidating the land that they have already built on, they have not as far as I am aware taken over swaths of land that could be construed as Palestinian land considering there is agreement about possible land swaps. It could be said that the Pali's are crying wolf on that one.

In fact Netanyahu has to all intents and purposes put a stop to any building on the west bank even though there are others saying that the proposed building should go ahead. Though recently he may have given go ahead because of the PA moves.

Does it matter If there is a Palestinian unity government who fired the rockets, Which part of the unity government is responsible, surely that would be Abbas as head of that government?

The Israeli land move was a reference to the Gaza fighting, should have been ground move - as when the ground troops crossed the border.

Regardless, the claim that no further illegal building took place, or that no new illegals settlements were created is incorrect. There is plenty of documentation to this effect, usually not from Israeli government sources though (but on this issue, the main NGOs active in the field are rather reliable). Netanyahu said he stopped building, but then he says a lot of things. The truth is buried under a hill of legal construction terms, budgets and governments decisions carried from previous years, unsanctioned or partially sanctioned actions by the illegal settlers.

Not a legal expert, and this is a tricky question on a good day. The thing is that the Palestinian Unity government is a construct which can be presented in several ways, depending on need. The Hamas representatives are third/fourth tier (legal worries by the PA and image considerations by Hamas), and not members of the military wing. There was no agreed solution (and there still isn't one) regarding control of the Hamas's armed wing, so it is dubious Abbas could be accountable for Hamas actions - bear in mind he did cooperate with Israel with regard to operations in the West Bank, and did speak up against the rocket thing.

Ok you mean ground incursion maybe! Yes Israel should have just sat there and let the rockets land where they will! Seriously? If I came over to your house and threw bottles at your windows, you would say something to me, Yes? If I was to continue to do that day in day out, how long before you want to punch my lights out?

The only real problem was the job was not finished, they should have destroyed Hamas. end of.

With respects until there is a settlement of some sort or another who owns the land is a mute point, Israel has as much of a claim as the Plai's do. Settlements that were built under government sanctions were built for a reason, there is a will to swap land if and when the Palestinians are willing to make peace. But as I have said the window is closing fast. Palestinians will be irrelevant in a dacades time if they don't show willing.

Not sure what the rage expressed in the first paragraph is all about - I was just saying that the Palestinian's official statement was made, if memory serves, prior to the Israeli ground incursion and before casualties mounted up. At that phase, which was mostly air strikes, the legal situation was somewhat different. It was not a comment regarding justification of the ground incursion.

The international law and world opinion seem to have different takes than yours regarding Israel's rights in the West Bank. One could ignore them, but as Israel itself agreed, on several occasions, to halt/limit/refrain from further building activities in the West Bank (since the Oslo Accords, that is, not just recently), and repeatedly breached those terms, perhaps not so easy to deny. On two separate reports commissioned by Israeli governments (and coming with politically opposite conclusions) one thing stood as a similarity - both reports regarding many of the settlements activities as being unlawful with regards to Israeli law itself. If this is not enough - the Israeli Supreme Court handed a few verdicts forcing governments to dismantle certain illegal settlements, for the most recent one Goggle Amona.

Sorry, not going to be pulled into further debate regarding fighting in Gaza or Jordan as Palestinian homeland as they are really OT.

the rage if any was, the way you used "land move" suggested you did not agree with it, or were against it (not important which) that Israel was wrong to go into Gaza. Maybe sarcastic rage!

Politicians say things for the international as well as the domestic audience, But until both sides actually sit down and agree the fine points of that agreement, Everything is on the table, So Netanyahu may freeze building activity, if the arabs agree to a detail. But that can and will be reversed If conditions aren't met. As has happened. That is a form of negotiation.

Fully aware of Amona, and the Israeli Supreme Court, But that is internal politics, the Supreme court in the control of leftist elements against a right wing Government. But it shows that Israel is a working democracy. In Gaza you get killed if you don't agree with Hamas.

Certainly wasn't trying to draw you in to a debate on Jordan. It would only be bad news for the arabs, For Israel it would be ideal.