US weighs cutting aid to Palestinians over court move

[chuckd]

More drama queens showing up today:

"Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat"

[dexterm]

" Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment. "

Enshrined in law??? I'm flabbergasted that a country that boasts that it is the land of the free and home of the brave, the world's great democracy, the global policeman, can put into law that should another state seek to prosecute criminal activities, that the plaintiff be punished!

It essentially sends the message that the US condones Israeli crimes.

Where else in the world is a plaintiff persecuted for seeking redress for a crime? I can think of only the world's most corrupt places.

What was the rationale behind legislating that piece of law? What was the national interest that forces the US to support crimes in Israel? And we're not talking about petty crimes, either.

And it seems this persecution is because some Israeli criminals may not be able to have a holiday in Europe.

Israel; "Lets steal their drinking water so we can fill the swimming pool and water the lawn, and lets get the US to cut off direly needed aid, so we can go skiing in Switzerland (and escape punishment for heinous crimes)."

Disgusting and highly immoral.

Shame, shame shame on you United States of America.

You'd think the USA would be praising and rewarding the Palestinian Authority and Abbas for choosing the path of peaceful protest.

The USA is just embarrassing itself with this nonsense.

[Steely Dan]

More drama queens showing up today:

"Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat"

Mock indignation can be so unbecoming

[Jay Sata]

Religion is the root of all evil in the Middle East.

[dexterm]

On the other hand it is extremely difficult for US to sit with one bum on two chairs. Can't decide on whose side they are on.

There has never been any doubt as to whose side the USA is on..3$billion in aid annually to a racist state that suppresses the freedom and self determination of a people occupied for 67 years now, repeated use of veto and No vote to support Israel in UNSC, and cutting off aid to the PA that is choosing diplomacy over violence.

Where the USA stands is crystal clear...in slavery to AIPAC. Hence today’s crazy threat from the world’s supposed leading advocate of freedom and democracy to sweep Israeli war crimes under the carpet.

But the times are a changing. More young American voters are becoming aware of the injustice their parents have sponsored for decades. Social media expressing an alternative narrative and YouTube publishing the brutal daily reality of the occupation is expanding exponentially and the truth is emerging.

A case in point this very forum. I spend a 50% of my time in Thailand every year, and chanced upon TVF. I knew a little about the Middle East and was appalled at the racist fascist attitudes expressed by some members. Which has prompted me to investigate the facts further. Every time a Zionist myth is mentioned I research to discover the truth. So thanks y’all.

Some of the Zionist rationalizations and justifications for suppressing the civil rights of Palestinians for over half a century are plain ludicrous. A few have been trotted again already on this thread.

Multiply my experience globally and it’s clear the truth will out ultimately.

[Ulysses G.]

This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat

The Palestinians already have too many people like you managing their strategy and writing their ridiculous false propaganda. That is why they are in the mess they are in, after all these decades.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat

The Palestinians already have too many people like you managing their strategy and writing their ridiculous false propaganda. That is why they are in the mess they are in, after all these decades.

He has yet to comment on the thousands of Palestinians killed in Syria, too bad for them they are as dark matter to the crazed anti Israel propagandists, who would think people are stupid enough to be fooled by their faux humanitarianism.

[ggold]

" Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment. "

Enshrined in law??? I'm flabbergasted that a country that boasts that it is the land of the free and home of the brave, the world's great democracy, the global policeman, can put into law that should another state seek to prosecute criminal activities, that the plaintiff be punished!

It essentially sends the message that the US condones Israeli crimes.

Where else in the world is a plaintiff persecuted for seeking redress for a crime? I can think of only the world's most corrupt places.

What was the rationale behind legislating that piece of law? What was the national interest that forces the US to support crimes in Israel? And we're not talking about petty crimes, either.

And it seems this persecution is because some Israeli criminals may not be able to have a holiday in Europe.

Israel; "Lets steal their drinking water so we can fill the swimming pool and water the lawn, and lets get the US to cut off direly needed aid, so we can go skiing in Switzerland (and escape punishment for heinous crimes)."

Disgusting and highly immoral.

Shame, shame shame on you United States of America.

It really is impossible to take anything you say seriously.

Don't you know this relates to the oslo accord and has nothing to do with American laws. OH wait a minute this isn't about facts for you is it?

Edited January 6, 2015 by ggold

[ggold]

" Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment. "

Enshrined in law??? I'm flabbergasted that a country that boasts that it is the land of the free and home of the brave, the world's great democracy, the global policeman, can put into law that should another state seek to prosecute criminal activities, that the plaintiff be punished!

It essentially sends the message that the US condones Israeli crimes.

Where else in the world is a plaintiff persecuted for seeking redress for a crime? I can think of only the world's most corrupt places.

What was the rationale behind legislating that piece of law? What was the national interest that forces the US to support crimes in Israel? And we're not talking about petty crimes, either.

And it seems this persecution is because some Israeli criminals may not be able to have a holiday in Europe.

Israel; "Lets steal their drinking water so we can fill the swimming pool and water the lawn, and lets get the US to cut off direly needed aid, so we can go skiing in Switzerland (and escape punishment for heinous crimes)."

Disgusting and highly immoral.

Shame, shame shame on you United States of America.

You'd think the USA would be praising and rewarding the Palestinian Authority and Abbas for choosing the path of peaceful protest.

The USA is just embarrassing itself with this nonsense.

So it's not about peace, Just confrontation, and the arabs should be rewarded for that. You don't think this action will hinder any chance of peace then?

[Seastallion]

" Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment. "

Enshrined in law??? I'm flabbergasted that a country that boasts that it is the land of the free and home of the brave, the world's great democracy, the global policeman, can put into law that should another state seek to prosecute criminal activities, that the plaintiff be punished!

It essentially sends the message that the US condones Israeli crimes.

Where else in the world is a plaintiff persecuted for seeking redress for a crime? I can think of only the world's most corrupt places.

What was the rationale behind legislating that piece of law? What was the national interest that forces the US to support crimes in Israel? And we're not talking about petty crimes, either.

And it seems this persecution is because some Israeli criminals may not be able to have a holiday in Europe.

Israel; "Lets steal their drinking water so we can fill the swimming pool and water the lawn, and lets get the US to cut off direly needed aid, so we can go skiing in Switzerland (and escape punishment for heinous crimes)."

Disgusting and highly immoral.

Shame, shame shame on you United States of America.

It really is impossible to take anything you say seriously.

Don't you know this relates to the oslo accord and has nothing to do with American laws. OH wait a minute this isn't about facts for you is it?

What does the quote from the OP say? "Under AMERICAN LAW"

And that's a fact.

[Seastallion]

Oh?? & yet how many times has the US used their Veto power at the UN Security Council to shied Israel from just claims of wrong doings?

That is because there is such an obvious and corrupt bias against Israel. In the 61th Session of the General Assembly, UN ambassadors enacted 22 anti-Israel resolutions and did not pass even ONE resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. That is beyond bizarre.

Well looking on the bright side such a move may help combat obesity in the Palestinian Territories.

Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat

Bravo. I was going to say something similar but decided to simply let the forum read it and decide for themselves.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[harryfrompattaya]

I know it is semi tongue in cheek but I would like to read someday what the factual reasons are.

I know the simple reasons but they are too tiny for what is given/swapped/forgiven etc.

I have a pretty good hunch/suspicion but would like to see the actual facts laid out.

It is more than having a best friend in the ME...

It has to be more than simple campaign funding or lobbying too.

Read this article and check out this Newspaper is Voice for Israel

http://www.jpost.com/International/Middle-Israel-Crude-awakening-in-Vienna-383719

[Morch]

" Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment. "

Enshrined in law??? I'm flabbergasted that a country that boasts that it is the land of the free and home of the brave, the world's great democracy, the global policeman, can put into law that should another state seek to prosecute criminal activities, that the plaintiff be punished!

It essentially sends the message that the US condones Israeli crimes.

Where else in the world is a plaintiff persecuted for seeking redress for a crime? I can think of only the world's most corrupt places.

What was the rationale behind legislating that piece of law? What was the national interest that forces the US to support crimes in Israel? And we're not talking about petty crimes, either.

And it seems this persecution is because some Israeli criminals may not be able to have a holiday in Europe.

Israel; "Lets steal their drinking water so we can fill the swimming pool and water the lawn, and lets get the US to cut off direly needed aid, so we can go skiing in Switzerland (and escape punishment for heinous crimes)."

Disgusting and highly immoral.

Shame, shame shame on you United States of America.

Why the faux indignation?

Is the USA obligated to unconditionally transfer aid to the Palestinians? (or to anyone, for that matter).

As far as I am aware, every USA foreign aid bill comes with similar clauses and conditions which if triggered could result in suspension or termination of funding (thing something of the sort was mentioned on the latest Nigeria topic). In some cases these clauses are used as the administration sees fit, under current political conditions in the USA, options for the Obama administration might be somewhat limited.

The USA itself, for various reason, is not a member of the ICC. Why would it be expected to regard it as an alternative arbiter or as a legal authority regarding these matters?

The Palestinians are not "persecuted for seeking justice". They may be denied a grant based on future actions. It is not the Palestinian's "right" to receive this funding, rather it is given at the USA's discretion. There's this thing said about gift horses...

It does not seem that this condition was very offensive for the Palestinians, at least can't recall them having half the tantrums seen on some of the posts here. If it was such a matter of principal they could have just said "No, thanks".

The rationale behind this condition was to discourage sides from taking their differences to court, instead of trying to come to terms and understanding through negotiations (something which was relevant, at the time). The bill does not force the USA to support war crimes by Israel (and no need to bother with the ICC, as you passed a conviction already) - if the USA does not recognize the ICC's authority, why would it wish to sponsor appeals to the court? The USA's interest would be have been to keep tabs over negotiations, simple as that.

Again with the water thing, which is not mentioned in the OP, and not related to the topic. Again with fantasies about vacations in Europe, when the obvious implications would be for Israeli officials on state related trips.

The Palestinians were well aware of this condition when they made the ICC move - any thoughts on that?

[Morch]

Well, well, well.

The Arab Brigade is out in force, ranks joined and no opposition.

Permit me a dissonance note. To quote our glorious Seastallion - "Shame, shame, shame on you, US"

for paying these Terrorists billions each year making their leaders rich on blood, buying rockets, digging tunnels and

sending their emissaries around the World to present their 'just cause'! Shame indeed!

On the other hand it is extremely difficult for US to sit with one obum on two chairs. Can't decide on whose side they are on.

As opposed to what is implied above, the USA aid does not go to the Hamas, but to the PA (for all intents and purposes, the Fatah). Neither the Fatah nor the PA are designated as terrorist organizations, and of course - the rockets and tunnels remark is off mark.

That there is massive corruption within the PA and the Fatah is nothing new, no idea if this currently got to do specifically with the USA aid funds, though.

[Morch]

Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support.

Very good news. They are our enemies. Why have we been giving them money in the first place?

How is the PA the USA's enemy?

[Morch]

Yes, yes, do that. The Zionists will love it, but guess what? They have been under occupation for decades, with threats of mass annihilation and famine. Decades, just like Cuba. Didn't stop them.

This next move will calm the women and children of Palestine. NOT!

What occupation? no one stops them from leaving and going back to where they came from,

i.e. one of the many Arab countries in the region...

there is no such thing as Palestinians people, the name Palestine was given to this piece of land

by the Romans 2,000 year ago, Jerusalem is never mentioned in The Quran not even one time,

while it's mention 685 times in the old testaments, the prophet Muhammad never set foot

in Jerusalem and the Palestinians people have no lineage or heritage to this piece of land

the call home, Yasser Arafat himself was born in Egypt to and Egyptians parents... and yet he claim

to be a ' Palestinian'.....

This is about as nonsensical, or baiting, as applying the same logic to the Jewish population of Israel.

While many, if not most, of the Palestinian roots can be traced to countries in the region, this is not quite the same as having an affiliation with a specific country an ancestor arrived from. Most relevant countries are not in the habit of allowing immigrants, and certainly not handing out citizenship.

People who say that there is no such thing as Palestinian people might be mistaking by one word. There wasn't. There is now. Deal with it. The Palestinians will not go away because of historical arguments, or linguistic acrobatics.

Yasser Arafat's lineage, apart from being a more complex story then the above short version, got nothing to do with the issue. Many of Israel's leaders belonging to the same era were not born in-country as well.

The USA bill obviously recognizes that the Palestinian people exist, and they possess certain rights regarding the area where they live.

[Morch]

Israel fears Palestinian membership there could lead to a rash of politically motivated prosecutions that further isolates the Jewish state and makes it hard for Israeli officials to travel abroad.

Gee thats rough eh? Kind of like house arrest? They should be so lucky

"We're deeply troubled by the Palestinian action," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters.

She said joining the court "is entirely counterproductive and does nothing to further the aspirations of the

Palestinian people for a sovereign and independent state. It badly damages the atmosphere with the very people with whom they ultimately need to make peace."

Oh?? & yet how many times has the US used their Veto power at the UN Security Council to shied Israel from just claims of wrong doings?

That was not damaging to the atmosphere of making peace???

Here are over 40 such Veto's & that is just 1972 till the start of 2011(February)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Come on US go ahead stop that 440 million & while your at it stop the silly money we the taxpayers of the US foot the bill for yearly to Israel which btw makes the 440 mill look like chump change as it it something like 8 Million every single day

Step back...Sit down...Abstain from any further veto's ....Cut aid to BOTH sides till peace prevails ....let peace happen because it is just as much you causing the riff & you know it.

The reasoning for the USA exercising its veto right on these matters can be summarized by the Negroponte Doctrine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine

If one looks at the number of resolutions, condemnations and proposals raised in the UN and its various bodies related to Israel, it can be noticed that there are an awful lot of them relative to Israel's global importance or to the magnitude of the conflict. The other thing to note is that many, if not most of these are phrased in a one-sided way. Some would say this reflects reality, others may think that these one-sided efforts help create a public impression.

As discussed on previous topics, and at the risk of running this topic of the rails as well - the difference between the aid given to Palestinians and Israel, is that latter is mostly spent in the USA on orders from USA firms. This is not much of a moral argument, but an economic one (well, by proxy it would be domestic politics related as well). I can certainly understand a view calling for cutting the USA aid to Israel on moral grounds, or even on economic grounds. Write your representatives if you feel strongly about it, but check if there's a major weapon firm benefiting from the funding - might save you the trouble.

[Morch]

Yes, yes, do that. The Zionists will love it, but guess what? They have been under occupation for decades, with threats of mass annihilation and famine. Decades, just like Cuba. Didn't stop them.

This next move will calm the women and children of Palestine. NOT!

What occupation? no one stops them from leaving and going back to where they came from,

i.e. one of the many Arab countries in the region...

there is no such thing as Palestinians people, the name Palestine was given to this piece of land

by the Romans 2,000 year ago, Jerusalem is never mentioned in The Quran not even one time,

while it's mention 685 times in the old testaments, the prophet Muhammad never set foot

in Jerusalem and the Palestinians people have no lineage or heritage to this piece of land

the call home, Yasser Arafat himself was born in Egypt to and Egyptians parents... and yet he claim

to be a ' Palestinian'.....

Israeli lineage is from Russia. If US is condemning Israel for stealing Palestine millions, why does it not withdraw aid to Israel? Oh yeh, AIPAC owns congress.

All of the Israeli lineage is from Russia? Seriously?

What I like is that there are some posters that can be counted upon to make outlandish one-liners on these topics.

Well done for consistency.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Morch

[chuckd]

I am thinking the law in question is this one...

22 U.S.C. 287e
United States Code, 2009 Edition
Title 22 - FOREIGN RELATIONS AND INTERCOURSE
CHAPTER 7 - INTERNATIONAL BUREAUS, CONGRESSES, ETC.
SUBCHAPTER XVI - UNITED NATIONS ORGANIZATION
Sec. 287e - Authorization of appropriations; payment of expenses
From the U.S. Government Printing Office, www.gpo.gov

Which contains the following amendment...

Membership of Palestine Liberation Organization in United Nations Agencies

Pub. L. 101–246, title IV, §414, Feb. 16, 1990, 104 Stat. 70, provided that:

“(a) Prohibition.—No funds authorized to be appropriated by this Act or any other Act shall be available for the United Nations or any specialized agency thereof which accords the Palestine Liberation Organization the same standing as member states.

However, there is absolutely no reason the US government cannot withdraw funding from any organization the State Department deems is no longer eligible to receive the funds.

All the wailing and gnashing of teeth on this forum simply doesn't change the fact the money is doled out from taxpayer funds collected from US citizens and is remitted in accordance with what is best for those citizens and not the recipients of the funds.

If the funds are stopped, some other grieving nation and their taxpayers can take up the slack.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2009-title22/html/USCODE-2009-title22-chap7-subchapXVI-sec287e.htm

[Morch]

Oh?? & yet how many times has the US used their Veto power at the UN Security Council to shied Israel from just claims of wrong doings?

That is because there is such an obvious and corrupt bias against Israel. In the 61th Session of the General Assembly, UN ambassadors enacted 22 anti-Israel resolutions and did not pass even ONE resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. That is beyond bizarre.

Well looking on the bright side such a move may help combat obesity in the Palestinian Territories.

Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat

The remark quoted was certainly in bad taste.

The comment in reply, however, is so worth bookmarking....pretty sure it would be useful as comedy relief next time someone pops an objection to hyperbolic generalizations of oh...I dunno...Muslims, Palestinians....

And really, Dexterm...after all those times you assured posters that you were in fact a friend to Israel - turns out you wish for its ultimate defeat? The heart breaks at such betrayal (if it wasn't too amusing, that is).

As a paraphrase on the Stark moto - "Brace yourself, a clueless post about definitions of Zionism is coming".

[NeverSure]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

[Lissos]

It appears that the Palestinian leadership believed they could make a chess move, without someone else moving a chess piece in response.

[Seastallion]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

1. Because it's a given and needs no explanation. The Philistines, the Falestini....same thing, just an anglicised version of the name. 100 years ago, there was no place called Thailand, and no people called Sri Lankans. Your point makes no point except to highlight that the vast majority of current Israelis can trace their roots to Israel by no more than 3 generations or 70 odd years, while the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestral ties to the land for countless generations and many many centuries.

They have a right to be there, and they are called Palestinians.

2. Moot. They live in the area called Palestine and always have done, and they are trying to have self-determination. The state of Palestine exists.

3. They don't. What's your point? The US chooses to give aid to a beleaguered state, partially no doubt because they, the US, may feel some guilt that the Palestinian's miserable state of affairs is due largely to US sponsored crimes and aggression of Israel.

[Seastallion]

Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support.

Very good news. They are our enemies. Why have we been giving them money in the first place?

How is the PA the USA's enemy?

As he's on "ignore", I only get to see UG's posts when he's quoted, but this one is interesting. Not for the topic at hand, but in understanding his position.

Plainly, his misapprehension of the state of the world is behind his loathing of all things Muslim.

[englishoak]

All I can say is... "the law is an ass"

[Steely Dan]

Oh?? & yet how many times has the US used their Veto power at the UN Security Council to shied Israel from just claims of wrong doings?

That is because there is such an obvious and corrupt bias against Israel. In the 61th Session of the General Assembly, UN ambassadors enacted 22 anti-Israel resolutions and did not pass even ONE resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. That is beyond bizarre.

Well looking on the bright side such a move may help combat obesity in the Palestinian Territories.

Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat

The remark quoted was certainly in bad taste.

The comment in reply, however, is so worth bookmarking....pretty sure it would be useful as comedy relief next time someone pops an objection to hyperbolic generalizations of oh...I dunno...Muslims, Palestinians....

And really, Dexterm...after all those times you assured posters that you were in fact a friend to Israel - turns out you wish for its ultimate defeat? The heart breaks at such betrayal (if it wasn't too amusing, that is).

As a paraphrase on the Stark moto - "Brace yourself, a clueless post about definitions of Zionism is coming".

Perhaps instead of frothing at the mouth our pro-Palestinian keyboard warriors could make up any aid money withheld by having a whip round. They seem so numerous it would probably cost what they spend on a months internet connection. Indeed by sacrificing a month of net access everyone's a winner, the Palestinian authority yet again don't suffer any sanction for self inflicted idiocy and we get a rest from the incessant whining of their supporters and the U.S saves some money for food stamps for its own.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Steely Dan

[NeverSure]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

1. Because it's a given and needs no explanation. The Philistines, the Falestini....same thing, just an anglicised version of the name. 100 years ago, there was no place called Thailand, and no people called Sri Lankans. Your point makes no point except to highlight that the vast majority of current Israelis can trace their roots to Israel by no more than 3 generations or 70 odd years, while the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestral ties to the land for countless generations and many many centuries.

They have a right to be there, and they are called Palestinians.

2. Moot. They live in the area called Palestine and always have done, and they are trying to have self-determination. The state of Palestine exists.

3. They don't. What's your point? The US chooses to give aid to a beleaguered state, partially no doubt because they, the US, may feel some guilt that the Palestinian's miserable state of affairs is due largely to US sponsored crimes and aggression of Israel.

1. The Philistines were nomadic wanderers with no land. There never was a state occupied by Philistines, so back to square one. There never was anything similar to a "Philistinia" either and these people, if they were Philistines didn't have a nation and they didn't have land.

2. The area called Palestine was a region that encompassed part or all of several countries in the area. It was never a nation, but a region. It went as far as and included Syria. I'll attach a very old map.

3. Your notion of US guilt is absurd.

Historical map of Palestine, called "Terra Sancta Palestina."

Edited January 7, 2015 by NeverSure

[dexterm]

Morch wrote..(sorry thread full)

And really, Dexterm...after all those times you assured posters that you were in fact a friend to Israel - turns out you wish for its ultimate defeat? The heart breaks at such betrayal (if it wasn't too amusing, that is).

I am indeed a friend of Israel, more so than many of the red necks on this forum who ironically will ultimately hasten Israel’s demise as any sort of Jewish state.

I want young Israelis to spend the best years of their lives sanuking rather than being brutalized for 3 years in the army risking having their heads blown off. I want Israel to be the financial, technological, tourist and cultural hub of the entire Middle East, rather than development forever stymied by being in a constant state of war, possible European boycotts and sanctions, and surrounded by people who wont trade with them.

IMO there are 2 ways of achieving this..

2 state solution

A lasting peace for Israel within secure, recognized borders would require a just agreement acceptable to the majority of Palestinians... the main elements being 100% return to 67 borders in principle (could include land swaps), East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital, compensation for refugees (incl Jewish refugees) and a token return of a few elderly ones if they wish.

Israeli security issues addressed sensibly and no shenanigans over population transfers eg Israeli Arabs

One state solution.

Israel annexes the whole of the West Bank and grants equal citizenship to the Palestinians it inherits. It is in effect that already. Israel controls every aspect of Palestinian lives including their taxes! All that's missing is citizenship.

A nuclear armed Israel can never be defeated militarily. The 2 state solution is the only way Israel can temporarily preserve anything of a state with a Jewish character...and time and land is rapidly running out for that.

Either way through the natural transmigration of people over the next 100 years Israel will cease to be a Jewish state.(That's the defeat I am talking about). No bad thing IMO. I much prefer living in a society where I don’t give a hoot about my neighbors’ color, race, or religion..just that they are decent human beings and good neighbors.

Edited January 7, 2015 by dexterm

[Seastallion]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

1. Because it's a given and needs no explanation. The Philistines, the Falestini....same thing, just an anglicised version of the name. 100 years ago, there was no place called Thailand, and no people called Sri Lankans. Your point makes no point except to highlight that the vast majority of current Israelis can trace their roots to Israel by no more than 3 generations or 70 odd years, while the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestral ties to the land for countless generations and many many centuries.

They have a right to be there, and they are called Palestinians.

2. Moot. They live in the area called Palestine and always have done, and they are trying to have self-determination. The state of Palestine exists.

3. They don't. What's your point? The US chooses to give aid to a beleaguered state, partially no doubt because they, the US, may feel some guilt that the Palestinian's miserable state of affairs is due largely to US sponsored crimes and aggression of Israel.

1. The Philistines were nomadic wanderers with no land. There never was a state occupied by Philistines, so back to square one. There never was anything similar to a "Philistinia" either and these people, if they were Philistines didn't have a nation and they didn't have land.

2. The area called Palestine was a region that encompassed part or all of several countries in the area. It was never a nation, but a region. It went as far as and included Syria. I'll attach a very old map.

3. Your notion of US guilt is absurd.

Historical map of Palestine, called "Terra Sancta Palestina."

1w-wo-pal-1759.jpg

You're going round in circles. Nobody is claiming that there existed a nation call Palestine. Everyone agrees the area was called Palestine. That area was inhabited by Palestinians, regardless of nomadic lifestyle, (which is not totally correct either as attested to by villages and towns). Ties to the land. Direct ties to the land. Whether your family was pitching a tent or built a house, makes no difference. Those ties are so much stronger than the "ties" a bunch of Europeans had 70 years ago.

But all that doesn't matter. As Morch has pointed out to you in a very recent post above.

There is no doubt that the US is guilty of sponsoring Israeli aggression towards the Palestinians. That notion of guilt could hardly be called absurd. What the motives are behind US aid to Palestine are, who knows.......