US weighs cutting aid to Palestinians over court move

[Seastallion]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

1. Because it's a given and needs no explanation. The Philistines, the Falestini....same thing, just an anglicised version of the name. 100 years ago, there was no place called Thailand, and no people called Sri Lankans. Your point makes no point except to highlight that the vast majority of current Israelis can trace their roots to Israel by no more than 3 generations or 70 odd years, while the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestral ties to the land for countless generations and many many centuries.

They have a right to be there, and they are called Palestinians.

2. Moot. They live in the area called Palestine and always have done, and they are trying to have self-determination. The state of Palestine exists.

3. They don't. What's your point? The US chooses to give aid to a beleaguered state, partially no doubt because they, the US, may feel some guilt that the Palestinian's miserable state of affairs is due largely to US sponsored crimes and aggression of Israel.

there was no falestini? 100 years ago. Again you show you don't know anything.

You need to learn to read, as do the people that like your silly posts that don't make sense.

[Morch]

How is the PA the USA's enemy?

As you said above, the PA is Fatah and Fatah still has many ties to terrorism, including cheering on the kidnapping of 3 Israeli teenagers that resulted in their deaths and was probably one of the main causes of the recent Gaza war. Fatah are not as nutty as Hamas, but they are hardly our friends, although we do cooperate with them, because they are the lesser of two evils.

What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?

That many Palestinians, including Fatah members expressed support for the kidnapping, for example, does not actively make them neither terrorists or enemies, certainly not enemies of the USA. Doesn't make them saints and buddies, as well.

Abbas, by the way, what pretty straightforward in condemning the kidnapping, and the PA cooperated with Israel on this matter.

Claiming lesser of two evils, regardless if this is how things are actually seen by the USA, is not the same as declaring that the PA is an enemy.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that “only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas” were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

The ability of posters to get sidetracked is rather impressive.

How does this interview (which, by the way, is actually a very partial version translated from the original) make the Palestinians an enemy of the USA?

I do not believe that there is a full version of the interview available in English, from memory, what he actually said was that Fatah members and their families died during the fighting, not that they died while fighting. This is probably correct, although the figures probably are not. Some of the Fatah casualties were said to be executions by Hamas. Cases of faked identity or claims for taking part in action are not an uncommon phenomenon with regards to Palestinians organizations.

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

And again, what does this have to do with the OP?

[MobileContent]

I just wait for the day the US cuts the funding to Israel but I doubt it will ever happened.

[ggold]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

1. Because it's a given and needs no explanation. The Philistines, the Falestini....same thing, just an anglicised version of the name. 100 years ago, there was no place called Thailand, and no people called Sri Lankans. Your point makes no point except to highlight that the vast majority of current Israelis can trace their roots to Israel by no more than 3 generations or 70 odd years, while the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestral ties to the land for countless generations and many many centuries.

They have a right to be there, and they are called Palestinians.

2. Moot. They live in the area called Palestine and always have done, and they are trying to have self-determination. The state of Palestine exists.

3. They don't. What's your point? The US chooses to give aid to a beleaguered state, partially no doubt because they, the US, may feel some guilt that the Palestinian's miserable state of affairs is due largely to US sponsored crimes and aggression of Israel.

there was no falestini? 100 years ago. Again you show you don't know anything.

You need to learn to read, as do the people that like your silly posts that don't make sense.

you just don't like looking the fool, which is the case 100% of the time.

[Ulysses G.]

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

You are being too literal. Joe Biden said that the Taliban are not our enemy too, but I'm pretty sure that they think otherwise. We have plenty of enemies that are not acknowledged officially for political reasons.

[Ulysses G.]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

More on Fatah's support for terrorism.

The Silwan branch of Fatah honors the heroic martyr Abdel Rahman Al-Shaludi, who executed the Jerusalem operation which led to the running over of settlers in the occupied city of Jerusalem, read the notice, posted on Fatahs official Facebook page.

Read more: Abbas's Fatah honors Jerusalem hit-and-run terrorist http://www.timesofisrael.com/fatah-honors-jerusalem-hit-and-run-terrorist/#ixzz3O811RlQU

Edited January 7, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[ggold]

As you said above, the PA is Fatah and Fatah still has many ties to terrorism, including cheering on the kidnapping of 3 Israeli teenagers that resulted in their deaths and was probably one of the main causes of the recent Gaza war. Fatah are not as nutty as Hamas, but they are hardly our friends, although we do cooperate with them, because they are the lesser of two evils.

What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?

That many Palestinians, including Fatah members expressed support for the kidnapping, for example, does not actively make them neither terrorists or enemies, certainly not enemies of the USA. Doesn't make them saints and buddies, as well.

Abbas, by the way, what pretty straightforward in condemning the kidnapping, and the PA cooperated with Israel on this matter.

Claiming lesser of two evils, regardless if this is how things are actually seen by the USA, is not the same as declaring that the PA is an enemy.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that “only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas” were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

The ability of posters to get sidetracked is rather impressive.

How does this interview (which, by the way, is actually a very partial version translated from the original) make the Palestinians an enemy of the USA?

I do not believe that there is a full version of the interview available in English, from memory, what he actually said was that Fatah members and their families died during the fighting, not that they died while fighting. This is probably correct, although the figures probably are not. Some of the Fatah casualties were said to be executions by Hamas. Cases of faked identity or claims for taking part in action are not an uncommon phenomenon with regards to Palestinians organizations.

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

And again, what does this have to do with the OP?

You asked, "What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?"

I answered. The fact that you allowed yourself to be side tracked to the question of who might be an enemy of the USA, which has nothing to do with the OP is not my problem? Again maybe ask yourself "what does this have to do with the OP?"

I think it is accepted that fatah fired rockets into Israel from Gaza. The fight between Hamas and Fatah was a side show, Hamas showing they controlled Gaza. But then it shows up the unity government for what it isn't.

[mania]

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

You are being too literal. Joe Biden said that the Taliban are not our enemy too, but I'm pretty sure that they think otherwise. We have plenty of enemies that are not acknowledged officially for political reasons.

Perhaps but it is this kind of separating the wheat from the chaff that would actually help both sides

eventually talk about a solution. Rather than who did what when, who came first etc etc etc

[Morch]

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

You are being too literal. Joe Biden said that the Taliban are not our enemy too, but I'm pretty sure that they think otherwise. We have plenty of enemies that are not acknowledged officially for political reasons.

Yeah....so the PA is the same as the Taliban? Seriously?

[Morch]

What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?

That many Palestinians, including Fatah members expressed support for the kidnapping, for example, does not actively make them neither terrorists or enemies, certainly not enemies of the USA. Doesn't make them saints and buddies, as well.

Abbas, by the way, what pretty straightforward in condemning the kidnapping, and the PA cooperated with Israel on this matter.

Claiming lesser of two evils, regardless if this is how things are actually seen by the USA, is not the same as declaring that the PA is an enemy.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that “only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas” were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

The ability of posters to get sidetracked is rather impressive.

How does this interview (which, by the way, is actually a very partial version translated from the original) make the Palestinians an enemy of the USA?

I do not believe that there is a full version of the interview available in English, from memory, what he actually said was that Fatah members and their families died during the fighting, not that they died while fighting. This is probably correct, although the figures probably are not. Some of the Fatah casualties were said to be executions by Hamas. Cases of faked identity or claims for taking part in action are not an uncommon phenomenon with regards to Palestinians organizations.

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

And again, what does this have to do with the OP?

You asked, "What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?"

I answered. The fact that you allowed yourself to be side tracked to the question of who might be an enemy of the USA, which has nothing to do with the OP is not my problem? Again maybe ask yourself "what does this have to do with the OP?"

I think it is accepted that fatah fired rockets into Israel from Gaza. The fight between Hamas and Fatah was a side show, Hamas showing they controlled Gaza. But then it shows up the unity government for what it isn't.

The Fatah-Hamas conflict is just a side show.

It is "accepted" that Fatah launched rockets on Israel from Gaza (during the last round of fighting, presumably).

Throwing in the Palestinian Unity government for good measure (even if without clear context).

So much nonsense one can deal with at a time. I'll pass.

[Ulysses G.]

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

You are being too literal. Joe Biden said that the Taliban are not our enemy too, but I'm pretty sure that they think otherwise. We have plenty of enemies that are not acknowledged officially for political reasons.

Yeah....so the PA is the same as the Taliban? Seriously?

Who said that they were the same? The USA does not officially consider them enemies, but they are.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Morch wrote..(sorry thread full)

And really, Dexterm...after all those times you assured posters that you were in fact a friend to Israel - turns out you wish for its ultimate defeat? The heart breaks at such betrayal (if it wasn't too amusing, that is).

I am indeed a friend of Israel, more so than many of the red necks on this forum who ironically will ultimately hasten Israel’s demise as any sort of Jewish state.

I want young Israelis to spend the best years of their lives sanuking rather than being brutalized for 3 years in the army risking having their heads blown off. I want Israel to be the financial, technological, tourist and cultural hub of the entire Middle East, rather than development forever stymied by being in a constant state of war, possible European boycotts and sanctions, and surrounded by people who wont trade with them.

IMO there are 2 ways of achieving this..

2 state solution

A lasting peace for Israel within secure, recognized borders would require a just agreement acceptable to the majority of Palestinians... the main elements being 100% return to 67 borders in principle (could include land swaps), East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital, compensation for refugees (incl Jewish refugees) and a token return of a few elderly ones if they wish.

Israeli security issues addressed sensibly and no shenanigans over population transfers eg Israeli Arabs

One state solution.

Israel annexes the whole of the West Bank and grants equal citizenship to the Palestinians it inherits. It is in effect that already. Israel controls every aspect of Palestinian lives including their taxes! All that's missing is citizenship.

A nuclear armed Israel can never be defeated militarily. The 2 state solution is the only way Israel can temporarily preserve anything of a state with a Jewish character...and time and land is rapidly running out for that.

Either way through the natural transmigration of people over the next 100 years Israel will cease to be a Jewish state.(That's the defeat I am talking about). No bad thing IMO. I much prefer living in a society where I don’t give a hoot about my neighbors’ color, race, or religion..just that they are decent human beings and good neighbors.

I see, so you are a friend of Israel, but also profess that your "motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat". Can almost see how this works, but not quite. Ultimate defeat does not sound like compromise or peace, though.

One reads your possible solutions and got to wonder about some of the hidden pearls found there.

For example, talking about a two state solution, it is deemed necessary that an agreement will be is deemed to be "acceptable to the majority of Palestinians" but no mention is made of how acceptable it needs to be for Israelis. The faux 100% 1967 territory return is not even a condition which the Palestinians really insist upon, Compensation for Jewish refugees is not something which was ever agreed upon or even discussed at detail - relevant countries are less than thrilled with the notion. Sensible security arrangements are an easy way to gloss over certain core issues, on which sides repeatedly find it hard to reach a middle ground.

There is no one in a position of relevance suggesting Israel will annexe the whole of the West Bank (certainly not the Gaza Strip) and grant Israeli citizenship to all of the Palestinians.

Not too bothered about things a 100 years down the line, really. Won't be around anyway, and if the rest of history is any indication, attempting predictions that far in the future is an exercise in futility.

Basically, then, you are a friend of Israel, who wishes it cease being Israel. My guess is that most Israelis would be hard pressed to appreciate this notion of friendship. Obviously, this may not be correct for Muslims, as your main beef seems to be with Israel ceasing to be predominantly Jewish, with less reservations expressed toward the direction it would take with a Palestinians majority. If the defeat envisaged is through demographic changes, and if these are indeed inevitable, why all the drama, anguish and violence? Just ban Durex.

Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat.

Ahh..now I see where your confusion lies.

Read exactly what I wrote again...I clearly stated I am motivated to activate for the defeat of Zionists, particularly ones with this callous mentality...those people who think they have a God given right to steal Palestinian land. You and others conveniently substituted Israel in place of Zionists. NB no mention of Israel in my sentence. It’s only the Zionist bullies and racists whom I despise.

I accept Israel within the 67 borders. That’s a huge compromise already for the Palestinians. Israel gets to keep the land they occupied in 1948.

Re my peace plan you are finding a problem for every solution. Both sides have almost covered all my points twice already. Think outside the envelope a bit more.

Yes, of course Israelis would have to endorse a peace agreement too. But they don’t really have much choice...depends if they want a future for their state or stagnation. The Palestinians have been struggling for almost 100 years now for a state... a few more years wont make much difference.

I think you ought to look which way the wind is blowing. As Kerry said "the status quo is unsustainable". The world is changing and becoming more aware of the Zionist injustice. The USA may not always be in the pockets of AIPAC. Pressure for change is already emerging from Europe, Israel’s largest trading partner too.

I suppose it’s hard not to feel anguish or feelings of violent revenge when you see your children or parents beaten up or killed by Zionist thugs, or your centuries old Palestinian land confiscated to build a Zionist colony or a so called archaeological theme park such as in Silwan. Then there is an immediate need to protest and make others and my politicians aware of the crimes. But in the long run I am not too worried. As I have said before, all Palestinians need to do is practise passive resistance, join institutions such as ICC and UN, flood the social media with images of the brutal injustices perpetrated against them daily. The world will do the rest when they go viral.

Israel will one day be a multi cultural, multi faith country....don't care who's in the majority provided all have equal human and political rights. I am a friend of Israel, because I would like to see that transition happen with the least possible violence.

Edited January 7, 2015 by dexterm

[ggold]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that “only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas” were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

The ability of posters to get sidetracked is rather impressive.

How does this interview (which, by the way, is actually a very partial version translated from the original) make the Palestinians an enemy of the USA?

I do not believe that there is a full version of the interview available in English, from memory, what he actually said was that Fatah members and their families died during the fighting, not that they died while fighting. This is probably correct, although the figures probably are not. Some of the Fatah casualties were said to be executions by Hamas. Cases of faked identity or claims for taking part in action are not an uncommon phenomenon with regards to Palestinians organizations.

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

And again, what does this have to do with the OP?

You asked, "What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?"

I answered. The fact that you allowed yourself to be side tracked to the question of who might be an enemy of the USA, which has nothing to do with the OP is not my problem? Again maybe ask yourself "what does this have to do with the OP?"

I think it is accepted that fatah fired rockets into Israel from Gaza. The fight between Hamas and Fatah was a side show, Hamas showing they controlled Gaza. But then it shows up the unity government for what it isn't.

The Fatah-Hamas conflict is just a side show.

It is "accepted" that Fatah launched rockets on Israel from Gaza (during the last round of fighting, presumably).

Throwing in the Palestinian Unity government for good measure (even if without clear context).

So much nonsense one can deal with at a time. I'll pass.

careful now Morch you're mantel of impartiality is slipping!

If you cannot see the context of Hamas killing Fatah members against the backdrop of a unity government between the PA and Hamas then why do you even bother trying to stay impartial?

[harryfrompattaya]

I love it to watch the European talk about how bad the Jews treat the Muslims while these lovely Muslims are over running all of Europe. And most of their family in Europe have a problem today and now with Muslims

Forget about the Jews In Israel or the Muslims in area around it and worry about the country that sends your retirement money

Well Look what just happen in Paris the poor Muslims are destroying faster and faster

Edited January 7, 2015 by harryfrompattaya

[Morch]

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

You are being too literal. Joe Biden said that the Taliban are not our enemy too, but I'm pretty sure that they think otherwise. We have plenty of enemies that are not acknowledged officially for political reasons.

Yeah....so the PA is the same as the Taliban? Seriously?

Who said that they were the same? The USA does not officially consider them enemies, but they are.

[Morch]

Morch wrote..(sorry thread full)

And really, Dexterm...after all those times you assured posters that you were in fact a friend to Israel - turns out you wish for its ultimate defeat? The heart breaks at such betrayal (if it wasn't too amusing, that is).

I am indeed a friend of Israel, more so than many of the red necks on this forum who ironically will ultimately hasten Israel’s demise as any sort of Jewish state.

I want young Israelis to spend the best years of their lives sanuking rather than being brutalized for 3 years in the army risking having their heads blown off. I want Israel to be the financial, technological, tourist and cultural hub of the entire Middle East, rather than development forever stymied by being in a constant state of war, possible European boycotts and sanctions, and surrounded by people who wont trade with them.

IMO there are 2 ways of achieving this..

2 state solution

A lasting peace for Israel within secure, recognized borders would require a just agreement acceptable to the majority of Palestinians... the main elements being 100% return to 67 borders in principle (could include land swaps), East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital, compensation for refugees (incl Jewish refugees) and a token return of a few elderly ones if they wish.

Israeli security issues addressed sensibly and no shenanigans over population transfers eg Israeli Arabs

One state solution.

Israel annexes the whole of the West Bank and grants equal citizenship to the Palestinians it inherits. It is in effect that already. Israel controls every aspect of Palestinian lives including their taxes! All that's missing is citizenship.

A nuclear armed Israel can never be defeated militarily. The 2 state solution is the only way Israel can temporarily preserve anything of a state with a Jewish character...and time and land is rapidly running out for that.

Either way through the natural transmigration of people over the next 100 years Israel will cease to be a Jewish state.(That's the defeat I am talking about). No bad thing IMO. I much prefer living in a society where I don’t give a hoot about my neighbors’ color, race, or religion..just that they are decent human beings and good neighbors.

I see, so you are a friend of Israel, but also profess that your "motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat". Can almost see how this works, but not quite. Ultimate defeat does not sound like compromise or peace, though.

One reads your possible solutions and got to wonder about some of the hidden pearls found there.

For example, talking about a two state solution, it is deemed necessary that an agreement will be is deemed to be "acceptable to the majority of Palestinians" but no mention is made of how acceptable it needs to be for Israelis. The faux 100% 1967 territory return is not even a condition which the Palestinians really insist upon, Compensation for Jewish refugees is not something which was ever agreed upon or even discussed at detail - relevant countries are less than thrilled with the notion. Sensible security arrangements are an easy way to gloss over certain core issues, on which sides repeatedly find it hard to reach a middle ground.

There is no one in a position of relevance suggesting Israel will annexe the whole of the West Bank (certainly not the Gaza Strip) and grant Israeli citizenship to all of the Palestinians.

Not too bothered about things a 100 years down the line, really. Won't be around anyway, and if the rest of history is any indication, attempting predictions that far in the future is an exercise in futility.

Basically, then, you are a friend of Israel, who wishes it cease being Israel. My guess is that most Israelis would be hard pressed to appreciate this notion of friendship. Obviously, this may not be correct for Muslims, as your main beef seems to be with Israel ceasing to be predominantly Jewish, with less reservations expressed toward the direction it would take with a Palestinians majority. If the defeat envisaged is through demographic changes, and if these are indeed inevitable, why all the drama, anguish and violence? Just ban Durex.

Read carefully the above folks...this is the Zionist mind at work that takes delight in the malnutrition of children. This is my motivation to activate for their ultimate defeat.

Ahh..now I see where your confusion lies.

Read exactly what I wrote again...I clearly stated I am motivated to activate for the defeat of Zionists, particularly ones with this callous mentality...those people who think they have a God given right to steal Palestinian land. You and others conveniently substituted Israel in place of Zionists. NB no mention of Israel in my sentence. It’s only the Zionist bullies and racists whom I despise.

I accept Israel within the 67 borders. That’s a huge compromise already for the Palestinians. Israel gets to keep the land they occupied in 1948.

Re my peace plan you are finding a problem for every solution. Both sides have almost covered all my points twice already. Think outside the envelope a bit more.

Yes, of course Israelis would have to endorse a peace agreement too. But they don’t really have much choice...depends if they want a future for their state or stagnation. The Palestinians have been struggling for almost 100 years now for a state... a few more years wont make much difference.

I think you ought to look which way the wind is blowing. As Kerry said "the status quo is unsustainable". The world is changing and becoming more aware of the Zionist injustice. The USA may not always be in the pockets of AIPAC. Pressure for change is already emerging from Europe, Israel’s largest trading partner too.

I suppose it’s hard not to feel anguish or feelings of violent revenge when you see your children or parents beaten up or killed by Zionist thugs, or your centuries old Palestinian land confiscated to build a Zionist colony or a so called archaeological theme park such as in Silwan. Then there is an immediate need to protest and make others and my politicians aware of the crimes. But in the long run I am not too worried. As I have said before, all Palestinians need to do is practise passive resistance, join institutions such as ICC and UN, flood the social media with images of the brutal injustices perpetrated against them daily. The world will do the rest when they go viral.

Israel will one day be a multi cultural, multi faith country....don't care who's in the majority provided all have equal human and political rights. I am a friend of Israel, because I would like to see that transition happen with the least possible violence.

And that is why I posted this earlier - As a paraphrase on the Stark moto - "Brace yourself, a clueless post about definitions of Zionism is coming".

Being, apparently, a self-appointed expert on Zionism, could you name a single Israeli political party (excluding Arab/Jewish orthodox/fringe) which does not define itself, one way or the other as Zionist or identified with basic Zionist ideas? Your personal perception of Zionism is narrow and warped, out of touch with reality and yet it keeps being touted as some official version. If one assumes that Zionism is everything you say it is, then who is there to make peace with on the Israeli side? Some people seem unable to accept that there is an overlap between Israelis and Zionists, and that being a Zionist is not necessarily a monolithic concept or even an easily defined one. Shades of. Like most things in life.

I find faults with your imaginary peace programs when they are based on heaps of inaccuracies (like the Palestinians struggling for almost 100 years for a state) and as they continuously ignore inconvenient realities on the ground.

[Morch]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Fatah-members-killed-in-Gaza-during-war-Abbas-reveals-374661

Mahmoud Abbas announced that “only 50 martyrs belonging to Hamas” were killed during Operation Protective Edge.

Abbas revealed that 861 Fatah members were killed during the operation.

Armed groups belonging to Fatah claimed during the war that they, too, had been involved in the fighting against the IDF and the firing of rockets at Israel.

Hope the above answers your question!

The ability of posters to get sidetracked is rather impressive.

How does this interview (which, by the way, is actually a very partial version translated from the original) make the Palestinians an enemy of the USA?

I do not believe that there is a full version of the interview available in English, from memory, what he actually said was that Fatah members and their families died during the fighting, not that they died while fighting. This is probably correct, although the figures probably are not. Some of the Fatah casualties were said to be executions by Hamas. Cases of faked identity or claims for taking part in action are not an uncommon phenomenon with regards to Palestinians organizations.

The USA does not consider the PA an enemy.

And again, what does this have to do with the OP?

You asked, "What current ties do Fatah have to recent terrorist actions against Israel or the USA?"

I answered. The fact that you allowed yourself to be side tracked to the question of who might be an enemy of the USA, which has nothing to do with the OP is not my problem? Again maybe ask yourself "what does this have to do with the OP?"

I think it is accepted that fatah fired rockets into Israel from Gaza. The fight between Hamas and Fatah was a side show, Hamas showing they controlled Gaza. But then it shows up the unity government for what it isn't.

The Fatah-Hamas conflict is just a side show.

It is "accepted" that Fatah launched rockets on Israel from Gaza (during the last round of fighting, presumably).

Throwing in the Palestinian Unity government for good measure (even if without clear context).

So much nonsense one can deal with at a time. I'll pass.

careful now Morch you're mantel of impartiality is slipping!

If you cannot see the context of Hamas killing Fatah members against the backdrop of a unity government between the PA and Hamas then why do you even bother trying to stay impartial?

Unlike some, I do not view this as a football match or a trial, with clear winners and losers. Impartiality does not come into it. There are facts, there is personal experience, there is learning - these shape my views. Not any need to come out as impartial on an internet forum. Apologies if I lack the online emotive responses some seem to cherish.

As posted to another member, many people commenting on these topics are even worse than sports fans. Fans can at least admit their team plays poorly at times. Not into this whole for us/against us mentality, sorry about that too.

One day I will get a translator which can figure out the meaning of some of your posts (like the previous one) and then I might be able to relate. Simply no idea what you're on about.

[dexterm]

Morch wrote:

Being, apparently, a self-appointed expert on Zionism, could you name a single Israeli political party (excluding Arab/Jewish orthodox/fringe) which does not define itself, one way or the other as Zionist or identified with basic Zionist ideas?

Your personal perception of Zionism is narrow and warped, out of touch with reality and yet it keeps being touted as some official version. If one assumes that Zionism is everything you say it is, then who is there to make peace with on the Israeli side? Some people seem unable to accept that there is an overlap between Israelis and Zionists, and that being a Zionist is not necessarily a monolithic concept or even an easily defined one. Shades of. Like most things in life.

I find faults with your imaginary peace programs when they are based on heaps of inaccuracies (like the Palestinians struggling for almost 100 years for a state) and as they continuously ignore inconvenient realities on the ground.

"Zionism is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the reestablishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (also referred to as Palestine, Canaan or the Holy Land)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel." [displacing the resident population of Palestinians in the process]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

Yes, I am anti Zionist.

I don't believe that all Israelis want Jewish sovereignty in the whole of [Mandatory] Palestine. If that is your definition of Zionism, and most political parties believe that then Israel is doomed. That is if sovereignty means Jews are the 1st class citizens, and everyone else are merely non voting guest workers.I do not object to a one state solution with equal citizenship for all.

I wish Israel had never been established in any part of Palestine. IMO the early Zionists had no right to the land. But there is no turning back the clock, and I would like to see present Israeli Jews living peacefully alongside Palestinian Muslims and Christians in a secular democracy.

I object to Netanyahu's and others insistence on a racist supremacist Jewish State of Israel. So does the President of Israel and members of Netanyahu's cabinet such as Tzipi Livni which precipitated the forthcoming elections.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.622795

I like some of the policies of the anti Zionist Hadash party.

I wish there were more Jews in Israeli politics with the beliefs of Miko Peled and Uri Avnery.

Palestinian nationalist movements began around 1914 to counter the early Zionist land grabbers, and some commentators take it even further back to the Arab revolt of 1834...is that close enough to 100 years for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism#History

[NeverSure]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

There is no imperative to show anything.

If a large enough mass of people decide that they are a "people" then that's it. Helps if they share certain things in common, but the extant of this is not something which is set in stone.

Objectively, most of the world accepts the Palestinians as "people, "nation" "state" or whatever. Countries and organizations could have differing levels of acknowledging the

"Objectively, most of the world accepts the Palestinians as "people, "nation" "state" or whatever."

Wrong. The so-called "Palestine" has been trying hard to get international recognition as a nation and has failed. There has been the name "Palestine" recognized for those people only since 1988.

"On 22 November 1974, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236 recognised the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty in Palestine. It also recognised the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, and accorded it observer status in the United Nations. The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system."

LINK

So a terrorist organization, the PLO, was recognized as the legitimate representative of the so-called "Palestinian" people, but "Palestine" has no formal status as a nation.

[Morch]

Morch wrote:

Being, apparently, a self-appointed expert on Zionism, could you name a single Israeli political party (excluding Arab/Jewish orthodox/fringe) which does not define itself, one way or the other as Zionist or identified with basic Zionist ideas?

Your personal perception of Zionism is narrow and warped, out of touch with reality and yet it keeps being touted as some official version. If one assumes that Zionism is everything you say it is, then who is there to make peace with on the Israeli side? Some people seem unable to accept that there is an overlap between Israelis and Zionists, and that being a Zionist is not necessarily a monolithic concept or even an easily defined one. Shades of. Like most things in life.

I find faults with your imaginary peace programs when they are based on heaps of inaccuracies (like the Palestinians struggling for almost 100 years for a state) and as they continuously ignore inconvenient realities on the ground.

"Zionism is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the reestablishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (also referred to as Palestine, Canaan or the Holy Land)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel." [displacing the resident population of Palestinians in the process]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

Yes, I am anti Zionist.

I don't believe that all Israelis want Jewish sovereignty in the whole of [Mandatory] Palestine. If that is your definition of Zionism, and most political parties believe that then Israel is doomed. That is if sovereignty means Jews are the 1st class citizens, and everyone else are merely non voting guest workers.I do not object to a one state solution with equal citizenship for all.

I wish Israel had never been established in any part of Palestine. IMO the early Zionists had no right to the land. But there is no turning back the clock, and I would like to see present Israeli Jews living peacefully alongside Palestinian Muslims and Christians in a secular democracy.

I object to Netanyahu's and others insistence on a racist supremacist Jewish State of Israel. So does the President of Israel and members of Netanyahu's cabinet such as Tzipi Livni which precipitated the forthcoming elections.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.622795

I like some of the policies of the anti Zionist Hadash party.

I wish there were more Jews in Israeli politics with the beliefs of Miko Peled and Uri Avnery.

Palestinian nationalist movements began around 1914 to counter the early Zionist land grabbers, and some commentators take it even further back to the Arab revolt of 1834...is that close enough to 100 years for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism#History

Re: And that is why I posted this earlier - As a paraphrase on the Stark moto - "Brace yourself, a clueless post about definitions of Zionism is coming". .

Other than quoting definitions, the post above does not show much insight into how things are in reality.

What you believe or do not believe matters not. The fact remains that most Israelis (apart from Arabs and Orthodox Jews) identify with Zionist notion, which cover a much wider range of interpretations and realistic application than is suggested in the simplistic view above. For most Israelis, it would probably be correct to say that it is a matter of degrees, rather than adhering to a definition pulled from a website.

Since you go on so much about Israel, one would have expected that you were at least somewhat familiar with the its domestic politics and public attitudes. Instead, it seems that the opinions presented are based on reading certain websites, with wishful thinking and biased agenda to boot.

Does Rivlin's and Livni's rejection of Netanyahu & Co. proposed rules makes them anti-Zionists? Pretty sure both would object to this claim. Hadash can hardly be said to be a Jewish party but could be considered fringe among Jewish voters. The other two names thrown in are pretty much as fringe as it gets - this is not a comment on their political opinions, just on the support they represent. So with most Israeli Jews (excluding Orthodox religious) obviously identifying with Zionist political parties, and as shown by an example from your own post, Zionism is not a monolithic racist-supremacist ideology - perhaps it is time to accept that reality is a wee bit more complex than presented by clear cut definitions.

Yeah, about them early roots of Palestinian nationalism. The earliest bits would be Palestinian nationalism as part of a pan-Arab movement or Greater Syria movement. While there were expressions of nationalism later on, relying on the Wikipedia article in this case could be misleading. Checking actual sources (some, I believe, even appearing in the article itself) would present a somewhat different picture - one having more to do with powerful families (or clans) and landowners vying for advantage within the Palestinians, and using the masses as a tool. But if it warms someones heart to believe that there was actually a grassroots popular nationalistic movement that early on, that's fine. A national narrative main purpose is not accuracy.

Going back to the topic at hand - any chance of getting a comment, other than faux indignation, dreary pseudo-historical lecture or long term future prediction, on the Palestinians actually going forward with this move while knowing the consequences? Are they intending to simply write the USA aid off? Do they believe that it will not be cut off? Will they stop short of going after Israel once they join the ICC?

[Morch]

After all of these posts:

1. No one has attempted to show that there ever were any "Palestinians" before the 1980's with Yasser Arafat.

2. No one has attempted to show that there is now or ever has been a nation called Palestine.

3. No one has attempted to show why the USA owes the so-called "Palestinians" any money at any time, for any reason, whatsoever.

There is no imperative to show anything.

If a large enough mass of people decide that they are a "people" then that's it. Helps if they share certain things in common, but the extant of this is not something which is set in stone.

Objectively, most of the world accepts the Palestinians as "people, "nation" "state" or whatever. Countries and organizations could have differing levels of acknowledging the

"Objectively, most of the world accepts the Palestinians as "people, "nation" "state" or whatever."

Wrong. The so-called "Palestine" has been trying hard to get international recognition as a nation and has failed. There has been the name "Palestine" recognized for those people only since 1988.

"On 22 November 1974, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236 recognised the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty in Palestine. It also recognised the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, and accorded it observer status in the United Nations. The designation "Palestine" for the PLO was adopted by the United Nations in 1988 in acknowledgment of the Palestinian declaration of independence, but the proclaimed state still has no formal status within the system."

LINK

So a terrorist organization, the PLO, was recognized as the legitimate representative of the so-called "Palestinian" people, but "Palestine" has no formal status as a nation.

Other than failing to demonstrate that there is an imperative to show anything of the sort, the post above is nothing but a cry of "It ain't so".

Whether the Palestinians are acknowledged as a state, a nation, a people - the matter stands that one way or another, most of the world currently sees them as a distinct group. The USA and Israel obviously do to, or there would not be any Oslo Accords to begin with, for example. It can be very annoying when one's government takes decisions which are contrary to one's beliefs - my sympathies, happens to us all.

What designation the Palestinian go under and since when is hardly germane. Israelis were not always called Israelis as well.

If all on offer are mere linguistic acrobatics... .

[mania]

Other than failing to demonstrate that there is an imperative to show anything of the sort, the post above is nothing but a cry of "It ain't so".

Whether the Palestinians are acknowledged as a state, a nation, a people - the matter stands that one way or another, most of the world currently sees them as a distinct group. The USA and Israel obviously do to, or there would not be any Oslo Accords to begin with, for example. It can be very annoying when one's government takes decisions which are contrary to one's beliefs - my sympathies, happens to us all.

What designation the Palestinian go under and since when is hardly germane. Israelis were not always called Israelis as well.

If all on offer are mere linguistic acrobatics... .

I will say that you are a very patient man.

[Morch]

Senator introduces bill to cut aid to Palestinians

.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican Sen. Rand Paul introduced a bill on Wednesday that would immediately halt U.S. aid to the Palestinians until they halt their effort to join the International Criminal Court to pursue war-crimes charges against Israel.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' recent turn to the international court at The Hague marked a major policy shift and transformed his relations with Israel from strained to openly hostile. Abbas has been under heavy domestic pressure to take stronger action against Israel after a 50-day war between the Jewish state and militants in Gaza over the summer, tensions over holy sites in Jerusalem and the failure of the last round of U.S.-led peace talks.

While Palestinian membership in the court doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment, existing law says any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. The Kentucky senator's bill would ban assistance until the Palestinians stop their move to become a member of the court.

http://news.yahoo.com/senator-introduces-bill-cut-aid-palestinians-165949896--politics.html

Edited January 8, 2015 by Morch

[Kudel]

Sell weapons to isreal and give aid to palistine:-(

[H1w4yR1da]

I just wait for the day the US cuts the funding to Israel but I doubt it will ever happened.

Yep. It's not going to happen.

Israel is a major ally against Islamic terror. The Palestinians are a producer of it.

In light of recent events, we need Israel more than ever.

[Ulysses G.]

Hear hear!