12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[MJP]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

This guy is shocking......the arrogance....only about....SELF....pity that the interviewer was biassed as.....he should have let the guy talk and talk......listening through the veneer....

Looks like severe mental illness to me.

[Bakeman]

R.I.P. to those that fell and quick recoveries to the others who survived.

In 1801, when Thomas Jefferson was the U.S. president, the Pasha (Muslim Leader) of Tripoli suddenly demanded a massive payment from the United States, along with an increased annual tribute, in order to secure safe passage for American ships through the Mediterranean.

Jefferson refused the demands of the Pasha, and instead of sending more money and acquiescing to the angry and demanding Muslims, he sent naval warships bearing the newly created U.S. Marine Corps.

This was the first war by the American nation on foreign soil, and is where the line “to the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corps hymn comes from. It is also believed that the term “Leathernecks,” which refers to Marines, comes from the thick leather neck coverings that the Marines wore to protect themselves from being beheaded by the giant swords wielded by the Barbary pirates.

Thomas Jefferson showed how a U.S. president should respond to threats from radical Islamists, and that is by confronting and defeating them.

All Administrations could certainly stand to learn a lesson from Jefferson.

[Partigo]

Hi Dragonfly94 - incorrect the koran does talk about murder: it says if you kill one innocent man - it is as if you have killed the whole world...and...if you save one life - it is as if you have saved the whole world ..............................................................................................................religious books eh.........in the bible it says beat you ploughshares into swords (OT) and beat your swords into ploughshares (NT) ....

[lannarebirth]

25 per cent of the them more like

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/09/11/2602361/poll-majority-muslims-worldwide-reject-extremism/

[wooloomooloo]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

This guy is shocking......the arrogance....only about....SELF....pity that the interviewer was biassed as.....he should have let the guy talk and talk......listening through the veneer....

Looks like severe mental illness to me.

I don't need to say that if I went on live TV in the UK and insisted people should die for their transgressions against Islam then I'd be nicked and have my day in court.

Ram Jam Choudary is free to spew vile propaganda whilst resident in the UK and well aware that he is above the law. The Establishment won't dare touch him, as it stands.

If anyone's in any doubt about this despicable piece of junk, then google "Anjem Choudary Channel 4 Lee Rigby".

I'm considering a UKIP vote at the next election in the vague hope that this turd is ejected from the UK along with all his extended family.

These types are the enemy within and need sorting.

Edited January 10, 2015 by wooloomooloo

[lannarebirth]

I would really prefer to be a liberal. But in the face of Islamic Jihad being a liberal makes you dead. It's time for Europe to wake up to that. It's probably TOO LATE though.

Nothing wrong with a liberal value system. This isn't happening because of liberalism. It's happening because or Progressevism, which is often confused with and labeled as liberalism. Liberalism brought you the "melting pot". Progressevism brought you "multiculturalism" and the politicians that pander to voting blocks that may or may not be consistent with a harmonious society.

[Steely Dan]

To get to the nub of the problem there has been a concerted worldwide effort by the likes of Qatar and some in Saudi Arabia to sponsor the spread of Wahabism and Salafism throughout the West. The question as to how large the problem of radicalization is can be approximated by the prevalence of these sects. At a minimum both should be banned and all their Mosques close and Imams deported or silenced.

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/islamization-france-2012

[Kitsune]

fools, crooks, fraudsters, you name it, same as anywhere really

But we don't give up our civil rights

Yet you stay in a country where freedom of speech is ....well....somewhat, to put it politely, limited. By reading many of your comments on this topic.....i am baffled....you are just PC IMO.....good for you. Or you booked your ticket already ?

Yes I am here, and that makes me realize how important freedom of speech and democracy are.

[Tep]

Of course far right wing true haters of diversity in all its forms will be strengthened by this news.

But, how to process events like this can be especially challenging to the liberal and tolerant. Is intolerance of intolerance intolerance?

This is a question not only for Europe.

There is something Islamic in these terror events. Does it help to deny that obvious truth?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/01/europe_s_confused_debate_about_islam_and_terrorism_europeans_are_both_too.html

Those who advocate for a more diverse Europe tend to have a lot of fun pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of liberal Islamophobia. But, all too often, these tolerant souls are guilty of an equally dangerous hypocrisy of their own. They rightly lament that there’s a lot of prejudice against Muslims, but they wrongly infer that we should refrain from criticizing any manifestation of Islam—and consequently deny that there is anything Islamic about the kind of terrorism that has just left a Paris magazine’s offices riddled with bullets.

You identify an important issue for liberals. I do think that some people have difficulty in separating genuine commentary or criticism from stereotyping. I am a huge fan of Bill Maher and I understand what he says about the Muslim thing but I wonder if he too is stereotyping. Or if not stereotyping, then I am not able to distinguish genuine commentary from bigotry. I look forward to his return on Friday evening US time as he will surely have more to say and I want to hear it and think about it.

There is a difference between statements like 'Islam cannot exist in or is incompatible with a Democracy' (which I have had thrown at me) and 'I do not support the ban on women drivers in Saudi Arabia'. Apart from the social, political and cultural contexts, I think the first is clearly an over generalisation and easily disproved (i.e. Indonesia etc) and to me represents bigotry. The 2nd statement is more specific and can be dissected and argued.

The other concern is general ignorance, including mine. I have not read the texts. I don't know what Sharia Law says. I think many people do not. Some people claim they do but clearly get the information from ideologically driven sources that presents that information accordingly. I have no access to information channels that convey the latest in Islamic thought, the latest Fatwas or interpretation of scripture. I am told by non Muslims that such interpretation is forbidden anyway. In fact almost all my information does from non Muslims. I would prefer to hear comments from a Muslim woman on the face covering issue than on some old white Christian male.

Many, most if not all these terror events have some connection to Islam. I wonder about the meaning of such connections. I wonder about the causation of the events and the role of other, political mainly but also possibly social and economic, issues. How to deal with this? Information. Respect. Engagement. The alternatives are to horrible to contemplate.

Allow me to wonder, again, why is it that calls for "Information. Respect. Engagement." are almost universally directed (whether by Westerners or Muslims) at the West?

It seems like an acknowledgment that Western culture is (relatively, at least) more capable of accommodating foreign notions, and it is somehow implied that this attribute makes it the responsibility of the West to make head-ways toward Muslims. Another thing implied is that these attempts are not being made, or that efforts made are not enough. Accepting immigrants and refugees would seem like an indication of good intentions to begin with. Allowances made to cultural, social and religious needs are way beyond anything on offer elsewhere in the world. What exactly is missing? Were other immigrant communities afforded better attitudes and conditions?

It is not that there are no instances of the "Information. Respect. Engagement." approach among Muslims, mostly to do with those living in Western countries. But can these be said to be a true representation of their communities? Would "Information. Respect. Engagement." be an accurate description of general Muslim attitudes?

One response could be to follow the idea of the 'moral high ground' but this could be dangerous and bring up issues of cultural and moral equivalency with which I am not equipped to deal. Plus it is possibly a little pompous.

I was exploring the issue of separating legitimate commentary from the general noise of hate speech against Muslims and my focus is on how to 'deal' with muslim populations resident in Western liberal democracies. I don't touch on immigration as I don't think it appropriate on this type of thread. But anti-muslim sentiment is rife. So my issue is the practicality of what to do with those migrant muslim populations that already reside in our home countries. I do not subscribe to the kill them all school of non thinking. Nor with the send them all back him mob who ridiculously ignore the fact that the terrorists in Paris were French nationals.

So how to adopt a liberal approach to living with muslim immigrant populations or their descendants? Information. Respect. Engagement. I propose these as practical strategies. I am extremely proud of Australian culture. But I am not a chauvinist and I don't believe assimilation is a one way street. Bot the host and immigrant culture changes through engagement. This is my experience anyway with how multiculturalism in Australia has worked and been quite successful.

So my thoughts are mere suggestions for strategies to address the integration issue. It need not require people to subjugate themselves to others or give up closely held ideals and principles but it may provide some way of allowing different people with different ideals to live together.

[Tep]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

This is political theatre not to be taken seriously. A real journalist or a more talented interviewer would have picked Choudary apart. Hannity is a blunt, unsubtle instrument in the manufactured culture wars, pretty much confined to the US context. This is meant to drive ratings and income for the corporation behind this media outlet.

Rushdie started to talk about this on Bill Maher's Real Time the other day. I listen to Salman Rushdie. He has been engaged deeply on these issues for a long time.

Choudary is difficult to listen to but basically a provocateur. The trick is to not be provoked. If you believe in free speech, then you have to let him speak. People like this have little moderation. If you have well crafted laws and strong institutions, generally you can give them enough rope to hang themselves. If they stray into hate speech or actual incitement of actions to aid and support terrorist activities then you can get them. Just like Abu Hamza.

[Ulysses G.]

R.I.P. to those that fell and quick recoveries to the others who survived.

In 1801, when Thomas Jefferson was the U.S. president, the Pasha (Muslim Leader) of Tripoli suddenly demanded a massive payment from the United States, along with an increased annual tribute, in order to secure safe passage for American ships through the Mediterranean.

Jefferson refused the demands of the Pasha, and instead of sending more money and acquiescing to the angry and demanding Muslims, he sent naval warships bearing the newly created U.S. Marine Corps.

This was the first war by the American nation on foreign soil, and is where the line “to the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corps hymn comes from. It is also believed that the term “Leathernecks,” which refers to Marines, comes from the thick leather neck coverings that the Marines wore to protect themselves from being beheaded by the giant swords wielded by the Barbary pirates.

Thomas Jefferson showed how a U.S. president should respond to threats from radical Islamists, and that is by confronting and defeating them.

All Administrations could certainly stand to learn a lesson from Jefferson.

And the U.S. Marine Corps...

Ooh Rah

[Tep]

fools, crooks, fraudsters, you name it, same as anywhere really

But we don't give up our civil rights

Yet you stay in a country where freedom of speech is ....well....somewhat, to put it politely, limited. By reading many of your comments on this topic.....i am baffled....you are just PC IMO.....good for you. Or you booked your ticket already ?

Yes I am here, and that makes me realize how important freedom of speech and democracy are.

Some people are here to exploit Thailand. Others are here to contribute to its development. We have made careers and lives here. Sometime progress is positive. Sometimes otherwise. But we continue. Those here to exploit are the ones who clear off when things don't go so well. The rest of us stick it out. We PC crowd put our money where our mouths are.

[slipperylobster]

R.I.P. to those that fell and quick recoveries to the others who survived.

In 1801, when Thomas Jefferson was the U.S. president, the Pasha (Muslim Leader) of Tripoli suddenly demanded a massive payment from the United States, along with an increased annual tribute, in order to secure safe passage for American ships through the Mediterranean.

Jefferson refused the demands of the Pasha, and instead of sending more money and acquiescing to the angry and demanding Muslims, he sent naval warships bearing the newly created U.S. Marine Corps.

This was the first war by the American nation on foreign soil, and is where the line “to the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corps hymn comes from. It is also believed that the term “Leathernecks,” which refers to Marines, comes from the thick leather neck coverings that the Marines wore to protect themselves from being beheaded by the giant swords wielded by the Barbary pirates.

Thomas Jefferson showed how a U.S. president should respond to threats from radical Islamists, and that is by confronting and defeating them.

All Administrations could certainly stand to learn a lesson from Jefferson.

And the U.S. Marine Corps...

Ooh Rah

You sure those leather collars were not designed to just hold the chin up? Good posture and all that.

Captain Samuel Nicholas, the first recruiter (I, being one of the latter) usually hung out at Tun Tavern, Philadelphia...buying beer for young customers at the bar. When they woke up, they would be on the ship. Thus, the requirement for the leather collar. Poor posture. Those swords cut through almost any leather you could put on a neck, by the way. And why not just go for something two inches up or down?

Semper Fi....

[benalibina]

fools, crooks, fraudsters, you name it, same as anywhere really

But we don't give up our civil rights

Yet you stay in a country where freedom of speech is ....well....somewhat, to put it politely, limited. By reading many of your comments on this topic.....i am baffled....you are just PC IMO.....good for you. Or you booked your ticket already ?

Yes I am here, and that makes me realize how important freedom of speech and democracy are.

Some people are here to exploit Thailand. Others are here to contribute to its development. We have made careers and lives here. Sometime progress is positive. Sometimes otherwise. But we continue. Those here to exploit are the ones who clear off when things don't go so well. The rest of us stick it out. We PC crowd put our money where our mouths are.

Are you a cartoonist ?

[Fab5BKK]

7by7

Who is interested in moderate Muslims? It is the 25 per cent that hate everything and they need to be put down

Where do you get that 25% from?

Approximately 1.57 billion people worldwide are Muslim.

Are you seriously suggesting that 392.5 million of them are terrorist murderers or supporters of same?

It is important for people to realise that the vast majority of Muslims no more support terrorism than you or I.

This is because marginalising ordinary Muslims, demonising them, attacking them for the crimes committed by the terrorists will only radicalise more of them; especially among the young living in the West; as can be seen by those misguided youths from Europe traveling to join ISIS.

Do you really want to act as a recruiting sergeant for ISIS?

The moderate 90% are free to stand with the rest of the world to fight the 10? (157 mn, a frightening thought), or even 99% versus 15.7mn

Condemning, stating or talking isn't enough...

You are right

Only proper education arms you against the Jihad recruiters.

In Paris suburbs some kids are telling them to fxxx off. Not everyone gets lured into Islamist bullshit

France has to stop neglecting its youth's education

France neglecting its youth's education? Since when? Education is where taxpayers in France spend the most.

Education is mandatory and free until 16. Scholarships and other financial aids are well developped.

University is one of the cheapest among OECD countries

Even better, the best graduate schools (Polytechnique, ENA, ...), are free and students get paid.

Performing well at school does require efforts from students, not only from the state.

When you come from a social group which rejects the French values (incl. French language, laws, etc) and adhere to "community" values there's a problem...

Generations of immigrants coming from Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, SE Asia, etc. integrated very well.

Plse get your facts right.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Fab5BKK

[Tep]

R.I.P. to those that fell and quick recoveries to the others who survived.

In 1801, when Thomas Jefferson was the U.S. president, the Pasha (Muslim Leader) of Tripoli suddenly demanded a massive payment from the United States, along with an increased annual tribute, in order to secure safe passage for American ships through the Mediterranean.

Jefferson refused the demands of the Pasha, and instead of sending more money and acquiescing to the angry and demanding Muslims, he sent naval warships bearing the newly created U.S. Marine Corps.

This was the first war by the American nation on foreign soil, and is where the line “to the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corps hymn comes from. It is also believed that the term “Leathernecks,” which refers to Marines, comes from the thick leather neck coverings that the Marines wore to protect themselves from being beheaded by the giant swords wielded by the Barbary pirates.

Thomas Jefferson showed how a U.S. president should respond to threats from radical Islamists, and that is by confronting and defeating them.

All Administrations could certainly stand to learn a lesson from Jefferson.

And the U.S. Marine Corps...

Ooh Rah

I do not think this was a religious war. It was economic as alluded in the original post. It was also inspired by the desire to free western, white prisoners of the Pasha and to put a stop to the piracy and enslavement of westerners. It is important to know this history but I can't see what lessons it has for the current ideological conflicts.

I did not know about the origin of the term leatherneck. That is interesting. As well as contributing to the Marine Crops hymn, I understand that this campaign is referenced in the Star Spangled Banner, the US national anthem written by Francis Scott Key. Specifically the reference to 'the rocket's red glare'.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Tep

[slipperylobster]

Demonstrations in Germany, demonstrations in France. Who will be the next to stand up for freedom?

[Tep]

Yes I am here, and that makes me realize how important freedom of speech and democracy are.

Some people are here to exploit Thailand. Others are here to contribute to its development. We have made careers and lives here. Sometime progress is positive. Sometimes otherwise. But we continue. Those here to exploit are the ones who clear off when things don't go so well. The rest of us stick it out. We PC crowd put our money where our mouths are.

Are you a cartoonist ?

I wish I was. A political cartoonist at least. It is a rare and exquisite skill. The world lost a great deal last week.

[Kitsune]

You are right

Only proper education arms you against the Jihad recruiters.

In Paris suburbs some kids are telling them to fxxx off. Not everyone gets lured into Islamist bullshit

France has to stop neglecting its youth's education

France neglecting its youth's education? Since when? Education is where taxpayers in France spend the most.

Education is mandatory and free until 16. Scholarships and other financial aids are well developped.

University is one of the cheapest among OECD countries

Even better, the best graduate schools (Polytechnique, ENA, ...), are free and students get paid.

Performing well at school does require efforts from students, not only from the state.

When you come from a social group which rejects the French values (incl. French language, laws, etc) and adhere to "community" values there's a problem...

Generations of immigrants coming from Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, SE Asia, etc. integrated very well.

Plse get your facts rights

I worked in colleges in France as a teacher.

And I maintain, education money is not well used at all.

We as teachers are becoming targets of incivilities, abuses and crimes.

It is now impossible to teach most schools because teachers have become the only republican port left. The parents have given up, the social services don't have the founds and the rest of society is despising them

We as teachers had to double as social workers, psychologists and parents for kids who were pretty much abandoned by everyone else.

I am not surprised some turn to Jihad

[slipperylobster]

This could turn the tide....

France fighting for Liberty once again. I hope it will be like old times past, when they gave America the Statue.

Liberty comes at a price....as we can see. Many have paid that price, and it is our duty to honor and hold that...as our inherent right. Once it is lost, it will come at even a higher price.

Edited January 11, 2015 by slipperylobster

[mrtoad]

Could you guys stop making this about religion. Muslims communities have condemned the attack

Every single one of these attacks that the words " Alluha Ahkbar " are shouted loud and proud are about religion.

Alluha Ahkbar is not Arabic for the " Pork Pies are on me ".

I'm not denying these morons use Islam as an excuse.

I'm denying they are a majority

I don't think anyone is claiming they are a majority.

[Fab5BKK]

You are right

Only proper education arms you against the Jihad recruiters.

In Paris suburbs some kids are telling them to fxxx off. Not everyone gets lured into Islamist bullshit

France has to stop neglecting its youth's education

France neglecting its youth's education? Since when? Education is where taxpayers in France spend the most.

Education is mandatory and free until 16. Scholarships and other financial aids are well developped.

University is one of the cheapest among OECD countries

Even better, the best graduate schools (Polytechnique, ENA, ...), are free and students get paid.

Performing well at school does require efforts from students, not only from the state.

When you come from a social group which rejects the French values (incl. French language, laws, etc) and adhere to "community" values there's a problem...

Generations of immigrants coming from Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, SE Asia, etc. integrated very well.

Plse get your facts rights

I worked in colleges in France as a teacher.

And I maintain, education money is not well used at all.

We as teachers are becoming targets of incivilities, abuses and crimes.

It is now impossible to teach most schools because teachers have become the only republican port left. The parents have given up, the social services don't have the founds and the rest of society is despising them

We as teachers had to double as social workers, psychologists and parents for kids who were pretty much abandoned by everyone else.

I am not surprised some turn to Jihad

Schools are not supposed to replace parents.

Family aids, housing allowances, scholarships... are paid.

Quality social housing exists. For whatever reasons (?), after a while you'll find broken elevators, graffitis, letterboxes destroyed... and guess by who?

Healthcare is cheap and still one of the best among OECD.

BTW, I've got some of my degrees from France... and spent a number of years living / working there...

Additional note, when you immigrate to a country you've to adapt yourself to the country and its rules / customs You can not expect the host country to adapt to your "values".

Edited January 11, 2015 by Fab5BKK

[dragonfly94]

Hi Dragonfly94 - incorrect the koran does talk about murder: it says if you kill one innocent man - it is as if you have killed the whole world...and...if you save one life - it is as if you have saved the whole world ..............................................................................................................religious books eh.........in the bible it says beat you ploughshares into swords (OT) and beat your swords into ploughshares (NT) ....

The koran contains at least 109 verses either calling for violence or praising it. The comparison with Christianity based on two or three old testament verses is completely fatuous. Islam does not consider the murder of blasphermers (cartoonists in this case) as 'innocent' so that sura is not applicable. Other non innocents according to the koran would be unbelievers wherever you find them, gays and apostates of course. The only innocents in islam are muslims of the same ilk and kaffirs who want to convert or live second class lives.

[micmichd]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

This guy is shocking......the arrogance....only about....SELF....pity that the interviewer was biassed as.....he should have let the guy talk and talk......listening through the veneer....

?

I get an ad for a tablet. ...

[zydeco]

Interesting to see the responses play out. There seems to be a hierarchy of concern, when it comes to who was killed in this attack. Not only in the international press but also on this board.

First and foremost, the cartoonists. Lots of "je suing" and the like over the murdered cartoonists. Some posters have adopted as part of their very identity.

Secondly, the muslim policeman. CNN in particular harped on that and secondarily the female policeman. About the others, not very much.

Last, the four Jews killed in the kosher market. Referrals to as "hostages" only, for the most part. Don't want to let on that there has been a gradual purge of Jews in France through terror? Of course, not. This is all about cartoonists. Nobody else targeted or effected. How many muslim condomenations of the four Jews killed at the kosher market?

[Mosha]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

Ah but it is constantly rammed down our throats people like him are not true muslims.

[stat088]

http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/radical-islam-and-western-values-cannot-coexist-peacefully/story-e6freon6-1227178804093

[slipperylobster]

Anjem Choudary . . .

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3976707999001/radical-imam-anjem-choudary-on-charlie-hebdo-attack/?#sp=show-clips

Ah but it is constantly rammed down our throats people like him are not true muslims.

Do "True" Muslims hate this man as well, and disagree with his "interpretation" of their religion?

I hope so.

Edited January 11, 2015 by slipperylobster

[mrtoad]

12 people murdered by radical muslims. Whatever race or religion they were. It is another hate filled attack by muslims against the West. No other way of dressing it up.

[mania]

12 people murdered by radical muslims. Whatever race or religion they were. It is another hate filled attack by muslims against the West. No other way of dressing it up.

No need too....It is as you say murder.

Same as the collateral thousands killed on a regular basis elsewhere in the countries pounded by drones etc.

They obviously feel no need to dress it up. They just know they lost family & it probably feels like

some form of hate to them too.

Edited January 11, 2015 by mania