12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[JockPieandBeans]

Make of this what you will

British hate preacher Mizanur Rahman’s sick sermon backing jihadists hours after the Paris bloodbath could be a driving force for further killings, an expert has warned.

In a speech to a London audience, and streamed online to thousands of followers, Rahman ranted “Britain is the enemy of Islam” and defended the slaughter of the 12 Charlie Hebdo victims.

He later said: “Insulting Islam... they can’t expect a different result.”

Critics have called for an urgent probe into Rahman, now on police bail after he and others were arrested last year on ­suspicion of terror offences.

He tells followers in the video: “Clearly what happened in France is a war. These cartoons is part of their own war, is part of the pyschological warfare.

"You can’t have that attitude. You know what happens when you insult Muhammad.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paris-shootings-british-hate-preachers-4957281#rlabs=1

[F430murci]

Bigotry is the real sickness.

Is denouncing Nazism and opposing Nazi immigration bigotry too ? If so, call me a bigot.

bigotry is being intolerant to those with a different view/opinion, so if you aren't supporting terrorism then these people will see you as a bigot.

Screw em. I find it hilarious that some consider me a bigot because I am intolerable toward rageful, Islamic losers that target and kill innocent civilians, but the loser Islamists killing innocent civilians are not bigots. Whateva.

I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate all loser human waste garbage that targets innocent civilians in an effort to create fear, terror and hurt those living happy and productive lives.

[H1w4yR1da]

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

[F430murci]

Wow, big surprise that the loser terrorist brothers were unemployed . . . yet they have money for automatic weapons, food, shelter and etc. The entire family and extended family should be forced to pay back any money they took from France and deported immediately. One way ticket to Syria . . . or Nigeria.

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

[Morch]

Imagine...inviting these "people" in to a liberal country, then having them setup independent sectors within that country that are governed by radical laws. (Sharia).

This is increasing...exponentially.

So in which country is that happening? It's certainly not happening in any European one; where those who try to impose Sharia law are arrested and suitably punished; in the UK, for example, by imprisonment.

Additionally, they still say we are stifling their religion....by grouping "Normal" muslims with "Weirdo" type muslims.

Eh?

Where do they say that?

Many Muslims do say that they are not terrorists and do not support terrorists. Is that what you mean?

It does not matter whether no-go zones are actually established, it does matter whether Sharia courts actually replace the law of the land. The mere attempt to make this a reality, even if futile - does matter. The mere suggestion that this is how things should be, - does matter. These even being not a single instances, but repeated calls - matters.

This is simply not how one behaves toward one's host country. Basic Manners 101.

[lannarebirth]

Wow, big surprise that the loser terrorist brothers were unemployed . . . yet they have money for automatic weapons, food, shelter and etc. The entire family and extended family should be forced to pay back any money they took from France and deported immediately. One way ticket to Syria . . . or Nigeria.

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

[F430murci]

Wow, big surprise that the loser terrorist brothers were unemployed . . . yet they have money for automatic weapons, food, shelter and etc. The entire family and extended family should be forced to pay back any money they took from France and deported immediately. One way ticket to Syria . . . or Nigeria.

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

I had absolutely no clue it was that bad there until all if this happened. Can you imagine if some yanks tried to pull that off in Thailand and at the same time expected Thailand to pay them government assistance so they don't have to work.

[F430murci]

Here is the problem I have with all of this. These terrorist types operate surreptitiously. These guys could be out in the streets holding a sign of peace and love proclaiming Islam is a religion of peace one day and the very next day be plotting attacks or preaching divisiveness. No-go zones are about as divisive as one can get.

[MrTee]

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

Clearly you've never understood Charlie Hebdos's cartoons.

well played again!

[JockPieandBeans]

Wow, big surprise that the loser terrorist brothers were unemployed . . . yet they have money for automatic weapons, food, shelter and etc. The entire family and extended family should be forced to pay back any money they took from France and deported immediately. One way ticket to Syria . . . or Nigeria.

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

7x7 will be along shortly to tell you that the French Government are lying.

He has stated numerous times on this forum, that there is no such things as no-go areas anywhere in Europe.

Anyone who says that these no-go areas do exist are immediately branded racist Islamaphobes or other such niceties.

Must be amazing living in his world.

[F430murci]

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

7x7 will be along shortly to tell you that the French Government are lying.

He has stated numerous times on this forum, that there is no such things as no-go areas anywhere in Europe.

Anyone who says that these no-go areas do exist are immediately branded racist Islamaphobes or other such niceties.

Must be amazing living in his world.

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

Edited January 11, 2015 by F430murci

[MrTee]

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

Where are these no go zones?

I'd like to see that in my home country - I'd put on my cleanest Union-Jack teeshirt, grab a beer and march on straight through these no go zones - only I wouldn't because they only exist in your mind.

[Tep]

*posts removed to allow reply*

Well, one would have to swallow the implication that there were no issues at all with Muslim immigrant communities and them confines of the law. Taking the latest duo of law abiding citizens as representing the whole of Muslims immigrant communities is naturally misguided. Taking them as representing an element of Muslim immigrant communities, is not. We could then go on into debate regarding the role this element plays within Muslim immigrant communities and its effect on the relationship with the host majority. I would venture that this role is being downplayed - by certain media outlets, political interest groups, and by Muslims as well.

Obeying the laws of the land is indeed a minimal requirement for "fitting in". The same applies to changes regarding dress code and culinary choices. There would be instances where these would collide with host culture, and if a satisfactory solution which allows the minority to uphold its traditions without infringing on the host culture and rules - more power to both. The issues are more evident when "not fitting in" is involved - hanging on to cultural practices and traditions which are at odds with the host's, or attempting to limit host population freedoms and rights in favor of minority cultural practices will lead to friction. These attempts need not even be successful in order to cause issues, merely repeated and offensive. Muslims are not required nor asked to drop all of their cultural and religious ideas, just the bits that do not conform to host countries' standards of acceptable social conduct. This was something which, I believe, was applied in turn to any immigrant group.

Immigrant communities may become tourist attractions and culinary destination if and when they embrace the notion of capitalizing on their ethnicity by engaging the host population. Standoffish or isolationist communities will not fare as well on this department.

Whether a community leans toward integration or assimilation is not that important, as long as certain niceties are observed. Upholding cultural and religious traditions can be achieved (at least for some minorities) with lesser amounts of antagonism, confrontation and animosity.

I do not think that our views on the issue of information are that opposed. In agreement that many Westerners do not really know a whole lot about Islam and Muslims. This could be equally applied without much prejudice as to opinion regarding Islam and Muslims, more a general thing. On the same note, it could be said that many Muslims lack accurate information (or as some may put it - "simply don't get") regarding Western culture, practices, religions and values. The difference is that whereas I see the lack of information as being exhibited by all relevant parties, the appeal made in your post seems to be directed at Western societies.

The question of engaging Muslims goes a bit further than whether the "right people" are engaged. It is also a question regarding the general willingness exhibited by Muslims to engage Westerns in general and host populations specifically. It could be suggested that "If it is indeed true that "If you scream obscenities at a person based on their ideology, then you are not going to get far in trying to influence them" is a correct observation, but that it cuts both ways. There are loud voices heard against Islam and Muslims, there are loud Muslim voices against Western values and Westerners. Respect cannot be a one way street.

Immigrants, especially those coming from poorer quarters of the world, those with different appearance, and markedly different cultural habits are sometimes treated badly by officials and populations of host countries. This is not unique to Muslims, rather a sad reality worldwide. It could be said that relative to other countries (not to mention Muslim immigrants countries of origin) this is less of an issue in modern day Western countries. This is not imply that things are perfect, but offered an opinion that Muslims are not generally treated worse than other minorities (the beginning of the post may serve as a qualifying statement).

There could be many factors contributing to either "radicalization" (which could mean a whole lot of things) or "creation of terrorists" (a somewhat more straightforward concept). The whole gamut of social, economical and psychological factors could be dropped in and there will be room for more. Failures by authorities are a given as well. All this does not quite answer why do Muslims exhibit a greater tendency to turn to terrorism compared with other minorities facing similar difficulties.

I agree with much of what you have written. I was clumsy in my expression to say that we were opposed on the Information issue. As you observed and what I meant was that we looked at it from opposite ends. In an attempt to find, define or describe a liberal response to the 'Muslim Question', I believe I have gone as far as I can at this stage on my original postulation of Information, Respect and Engagement for muslim migrant populations attempting to live productively and successfully within Western Liberal Democracies. But then we come to you last question of why do Muslims exhibit a greater tendency to turn to terrorism? How to answer this without resorting to stereotyping?

Perhaps a start could be to look at examples of ethnic immigration in recent history and also to look at elements that cause people to turn into terrorists.

Sicilian and Calabrese immigrants to the US drew on their cultural customs to survive in a new and often hostile environment which in some cases led to the creation of organised crime that has now been largely defeated in the US through RICO legislation since the 70's and 80's. Many Irish immigrants to the US joined law enforcement. Greek and Italian immigrants to my part of Australia went into market gardening, including marijuana cultivation. From these and other examples, can you say there is a cultural bias towards how an immigrant population will act in their host country? Not all Sicilians were mafia. Not all irish were cops and not all Greeks and Italians in my home state grew dope. Plenty of cultural stereotypes are reinforced by such observations. So are all Muslim immigrants susceptible to becoming terrorists?

What is the experience with terrorism? I don't touch Northern Ireland in this discussion because I don't think you can define Northern Ireland as an ethnicity from which to draw parallels. I look at 2 examples, both of which come from the Balkans. Most people are familiar with the historic cause of WWI being generally accepted as the assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand by a Serbian nationalist. Apparently these types of nationalist terrorists were quite common in the early 20th Century and it is quite interesting to research them. I remember a movie from the 70's starring Oliver Reed on that very issue. What put an end to these types of nationalist terrorists? Clearly the First World War had an impact, but probably the Versailles Treaty and subsequent developments also contributed. The other example is from my home country where Serbian and Croat immigration in the 50's resulted in the establishment of para-military training camps to train fighters against the Yugoslav regime. This did not manifest itself in my state so much as the Eastern States. Local football (soccer) clubs were the fronts for a number of these para-military societies. What happened? Yugoslavia collapsed and the vicious Balkans War took place and we got that wonderful concept introduced to our language now of Ethnic Cleansing. But that too is now past and while not a perfect situation, the problems seem contained and systems in place seem to be operating to deal with them.

From my examples, I think that while some ethnic traits contribute to how migrant populations engage with their host country, you cannot really generalise and say that an entire culture will act in a certain way. Also that the causes of terrorism are rooted in time and place to clear political or ideological circumstances and once those circumstances changer, then the causes of such terrorism disappear.

So in answer to your question, why do Muslims exhibit a greater tendency towards terrorism, I would answer that it would predominantly be the religious component. I know this would surprise many here who have hurled the apologist slur at me frequently in the past, but I do believe that Islam is an ideology that has not benefited from the rationalist, humanist and liberal experience of the West. What we are seeing are clashes between this un-reconstructed faith of the migrant population and the values of the host population. My argument is that a liberal approach allows for the illiberal aspects of Islam to be moderated to enable muslim immigrant populations to integrate (not assimilate) into host populations. Illiberal responses to the issue I think are a contributing factor to the creation of terrorists and that Muslims by nature are not more susceptible to becoming terrorists but the inability of their religion in its unreconstructed form to accommodate liberal beliefs is a contributing factor. As always there will be caveats to that view as well as other contributing factors but I do think that in this case, it is fairly obvious that the religious issue is a predominant factor in addressing your question.

[alanrchase]

They are French.

Born in Paris

What do you mean they are French? These idiots live in No-Go zones governed by Sharia law.

They are French solely for purposes of living off French government, but they effectively set up their own little countries inside France that refuses to recognize French laws and where non-Muslims may not be permitted to go. Mind boggling.

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

7x7 will be along shortly to tell you that the French Government are lying.

He has stated numerous times on this forum, that there is no such things as no-go areas anywhere in Europe.

Anyone who says that these no-go areas do exist are immediately branded racist Islamaphobes or other such niceties.

Must be amazing living in his world.

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

If my memory serves the West has been bombing the Muslim communities for the last 15 or so years. Should they up the payload on the bomber aircraft? A static to ponder. More weight of bombs were dropped by the anti Vietcong forces during that "conflict" than were dropped in WWE. Frightening.

[H1w4yR1da]

2010 in the US there were 39,518 deaths caused by self harm.. deport the selfs!

This thread maybe not the best place for stupid jokes.

so you now feel the need to shutup any satire on this sacred of all sacred threads

well played - you just joined the ranks of those you despise.

You really are an idiot. Your post wasn't satire. Far from it. You're not humorous in the slightest. Just another sad little Islamist stinking up this thread.

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

Actually I did understand them, once they were translated. Care to tell me what was stupid about them?

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

wait, you are the same bellend that posted a link to BONNI INTALL's hate site and you say my comments are stupid..

Hats off to you - well played that man!

Glad you enjoyed the link.

And there's a reason there're so many anti-Islam hate sites. Can you guess?

[Morch]

(some quotes removed to comply with forum software)

Although extremist groups such as ISIS have supported this horrendous crime, these evil terrorist murderers do not represent the majority of Muslims and have been condemned by them.

Charlie Hebdo killings condemned by Arab states – but hailed online by extremists

Moderate Muslims Use #JeSuisCharlie To Condemn Charlie Hebdo Attack In Paris

Not in our name – Muslims respond in revulsion to Charlie Hebdo massacre

Paris Murders are a Greater Insult to Islam: Muslim Council of Britain Statement on Charlie Hebdo Massacre

Muslim Council of Britain Express Solidarity With Jewish Community After Paris Kosher Supermarket Deaths

Of course, those whose closed minds tar all Muslims with the terrorist brush will no doubt, yet again, call me an 'apologist for terrorists' for posting this, even though I have never sought to defend or apologise for any act of terrorism, no matter who commits it.

But that is the only reaction these people can come up with when confronted with facts which don't suit their prejudice.

I have posted a similar list earlier, so not contesting that there are were and are official statements from Muslim organizations and heads of state condemning the attack.

What I do wonder about is how much public support among Muslim communities and nations do these statements represent? Westerners are quite at home denying that their leader's statements conform to their own views (this can be evident in about any semi-political topic on TVF). Would it not be the same for Muslims?

When people feel strongly about issues, there is often a public display of their discontent - be it demonstrations, marches, strikes and what not (limiting the reference to relatively non-violent means of expression), or nowadays, social media campaigns. There is relatively less public outrage expressed by Muslims over Islam-related terrorist attacks than one could have expected, going by some of the claims repeatedly raised. If these statements indeed represent a majority, then this majority either feels less than directly involved or threatened, is either passive or restricted in its reactions.

There are instances when the above happens, but there is a disparity of numbers showing up for similar occasions to do with protesting (real or imagined) wrongdoing against Islam or Muslims. This could be attributed to many factors, non of which shed a very favorable light on the issue.

As shown; Muslims are taking to social media, such as Twitter, to condemn this attack.

I understand that prayers for the murdered were said at many mosques on Friday; I'm told by a Muslim friend that was certainly the case at my local one.

Arifa Akbar makes some very a valid points in Paris attacks: No, Mr Murdoch. I am not responsible

This week, I'm told I haven't apologised enough. Not nearly enough – being a British Muslim, and confining my expressions of disbelief, alarm and anger, to only my circle of friends, colleagues and family – when in Paris, 17 are dead, Europe is in mourning, and the freedoms enshrined in my own profession have been barbarically violated.

The sub heading to that article is "Christians were not expected to say sorry for the Oklahoma City bombing, yet Muslims are being asked to apologise."

A good point; no one demanded Christians apologise for or condemn that atrocity. No one criticised Christians for not taking to the streets to demonstrate their horror at the bombings.

No one demanded that Jews apologise for the murders committed by self described "far right Zionist" Anders Behring Breivik in Sweden in 2011.

Ditto for atrocities by other terrorists; the IRA, ETA for example.

Why is it only when the terrorists are Muslim that people demand ordinary people take to the streets to condemn them?

You simply repeat that some Muslim leaders expressed condemnation for the attack, which is something I do not contest and in fact mentioned way back when this topic was young. Seeing as I was a good boy, could I ask to be spared from further links to individual instances of the same? Thanks.

Muslims taking to social media is a bit dramatic, as shown in response to a previous post, this does not always mean mass support. Just to put things in perspective, the anti-Choudary FB page linked had under 3k followers, while in comparison the Sydney Lindt guy had about 15k....Go figure. And stuff like that sure gives "taking to social media" a whole different meaning:

http://www.news.com.au/national/paris-terror-at-charlie-hebdo-newspaper-aussies-justify-attack/story-fncynjr2-1227178984136

The Oklahoma bombing was not carried out as a part of an ongoing terrorist attack wave citing religious justification. If it had been, public reaction would have been different.

Breivik actually cited several ideological influences, Zionism not being the foremost. Regardless, Zionism and Jewish religion are not quite the same thing. Once again, the attack was not part of an ongoing terrorist attack wave citing religious justification and if it had been, public reaction would have been different.

Muslims are put on the spot because that there are relatively many terrorist attacks by Muslims who cite Islam as justification.

Had these attacks been isolated, relatively rare events, then public opinion would have been different.

When these attacks are seen as carried out by immigrants against their host countries or by "homegrown" terrorists seen as acting in the interests of foreign (not as in foreign country) influence - things are taken more seriously. When Muslims display a rather impressive capacity for protesting certain issues, this relatively fails to materialize in connection with such terror attacks.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Morch

[F430murci]

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

Where are these no go zones?

I'd like to see that in my home country - I'd put on my cleanest Union-Jack teeshirt, grab a beer and march on straight through these no go zones - only I wouldn't because they only exist in your mind.

Sorry my man, you guys are losing all credibility and the truth or reality of the situation is percolating to the top.

---------

A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.

France has Europes largest population of Muslims, some of whom talk openly of ruling the country one day and casting aside Western legal systems for harsh, Islam-based Shariah law.

. . .

While not a complete safe-haven for al Qaeda-type operatives, Paris and other French cities have become more fertile places for Muslim extremists in the past decade. City leaders have allowed virtual Islamic mini-states to thrive as Muslims gain power to govern in their own way.

There are no-go areas not just in Paris, but all over France, where they are effectively in control, said Robert Spencer, who directs JihadWatch.org, a nonprofit that monitors Muslim extremists.

Theyre operating with impunity, apparently secure in the knowledge that authorities cannot or will not act decisively to stop them, he said. And with the universal denial and obfuscation of the clear motive for the Charlie Hebdo attack, they have good reason to think that.

. . .

Over 1,000 French supermarkets are selling Islamic books that call for jihad and the killing of non-Muslims.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/#ixzz3OX0mCuxd

[MrTee]

2010 in the US there were 39,518 deaths caused by self harm.. deport the selfs!

This thread maybe not the best place for stupid jokes.

so you now feel the need to shutup any satire on this sacred of all sacred threads

well played - you just joined the ranks of those you despise.

You really are an idiot. Your post wasn't satire. Far from it. You're not humorous in the slightest. Just another sad little Islamist stinking up this thread.

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

Actually I did understand them, once they were translated. Care to tell me what was stupid about them?

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

wait, you are the same bellend that posted a link to BONNI INTALL's hate site and you say my comments are stupid..

Hats off to you - well played that man!

Glad you enjoyed the link.

And there's a reason there're so many anti-Islam hate sites. Can you guess?

Let me guess.. um because idiots?

There are a lot of sites saying Niburu - Earth's sister planet - is hiding behind the sun and about to cause a global reversal of the magnetic poles and we'll float off into space..

There are idiots on the internet - who knew?

[F430murci]

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

7x7 will be along shortly to tell you that the French Government are lying.

He has stated numerous times on this forum, that there is no such things as no-go areas anywhere in Europe.

Anyone who says that these no-go areas do exist are immediately branded racist Islamaphobes or other such niceties.

Must be amazing living in his world.

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

If my memory serves the West has been bombing the Muslim communities for the last 15 or so years. Should they up the payload on the bomber aircraft? A static to ponder. More weight of bombs were dropped by the anti Vietcong forces during that "conflict" than were dropped in WWE. Frightening.

Sorry, but you are barely coherent.

US has taken desperate measures to protect its homeland in the wake of 911. National security is our top priority. If not kept in check, we see crap like Boko Haram, ISIS, Syria and etc. and we need to do whatever is in our power to keep that crap off US streets.

[micmichd]

Religion has a strong binding effect, but other institutions (eg labour unions) have it, too.

Give people good jobs so they can stand on their own feet. It's not the final solution to it all, but it helps a lot.

Just saying, from a liberal country with very low unemployment.

[MrTee]

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

Where are these no go zones?

I'd like to see that in my home country - I'd put on my cleanest Union-Jack teeshirt, grab a beer and march on straight through these no go zones - only I wouldn't because they only exist in your mind.

Sorry my man, you guys are losing all credibility and the truth or reality of the situation is percolating to the top.

---------

A backdrop to the massacre in Paris on Wednesday by self-professed al Qaeda terrorists is that city officials have increasingly ceded control of heavily Muslim neighborhoods to Islamists, block by block.

France has Europes largest population of Muslims, some of whom talk openly of ruling the country one day and casting aside Western legal systems for harsh, Islam-based Shariah law.

. . .

While not a complete safe-haven for al Qaeda-type operatives, Paris and other French cities have become more fertile places for Muslim extremists in the past decade. City leaders have allowed virtual Islamic mini-states to thrive as Muslims gain power to govern in their own way.

There are no-go areas not just in Paris, but all over France, where they are effectively in control, said Robert Spencer, who directs JihadWatch.org, a nonprofit that monitors Muslim extremists.

Theyre operating with impunity, apparently secure in the knowledge that authorities cannot or will not act decisively to stop them, he said. And with the universal denial and obfuscation of the clear motive for the Charlie Hebdo attack, they have good reason to think that.

. . .

Over 1,000 French supermarkets are selling Islamic books that call for jihad and the killing of non-Muslims.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/#ixzz3OX0mCuxd

Easy enough to Copy/Pasta from Washtimes.. of course they wouldn't want to grind an axe would they...

sadly for the bigots - reality is a different thing.

There are stupid that'll tell me there are no go zones in London. but hey hun, they do not exists..

Your whole premise for you assertion comes from the likes Fox news and WashTimes its a pile of crap and if you want to buy into that then I feel for you sunshine

Oh dear.

but.. you are right about certain things percolating to the top though.

Edited January 11, 2015 by MrTee

[MrTee]

Sorry, but you are barely coherent.

US has taken desperate measures to protect its homeland in the wake of 911. National security is our top priority. If not kept in check, we see crap like Boko Haram, ISIS, Syria and etc. and we need to do whatever is in our power to keep that crap off US streets.

barely - but answer me this "my man" why do you allow terrorism on a scale much larger to exist on your own doorstep?

I'm not going to lecture you on US gun crime you know the statistics.. but you'll fight tooth and nail to keep your "amendments" even if that means you children get terrorised but other children.

Edited January 11, 2015 by MrTee

[Morch]

<snip>

There were and there are many immigrants in Europe who did not turn to terrorism even after being attacked, demonized and marginalized. How come suddenly signing up with IS (or the current flavor of the month terrorist outfit) became a default option?

It isn't. Only a tiny minority of European Muslims have done so or attempted to do so.

The highest estimate I can find comes from the EU's anti-terrorism chief quoted in this BBC article; "more than 3,000."

Which obviously means less than 4,000; but let's take that figure.

In 2010, according to the Pew Forum, the Muslim population of Europe, excluding Turkey, was 44 million (source); I'll take that figure, even though nearly 5 years later it must be higher.

4000 out of 44 million. I make that 0.009%!

Still 0.009% too many; but not the hordes that some would have us believe.

If memory serves, the post originally replied to included a bit about marginalizing Muslims leading to them taking up with IS.

Hence the reference to "default option".

Terrorists are almost by definition a small group.

Allow me to repeat things posted earlier - most of the attempts at estimating numbers of terrorists, supporters and whatnoters are not very reliable. This includes your own extrapolation - the article says more than 3000 (not how many more), the number refers to those joining IS (not to those remaining in Europe).

Relative to other minorities in Europe, do Muslims display greater chances of joining terrorist organizations? Before this gets out of hand - no, citing IRA examples and the like is not relevant. We're talking about here and now.

[alanrchase]

2010 in the US there were 39,518 deaths caused by self harm.. deport the selfs!

This thread maybe not the best place for stupid jokes.

so you now feel the need to shutup any satire on this sacred of all sacred threads

well played - you just joined the ranks of those you despise.

You really are an idiot. Your post wasn't satire. Far from it. You're not humorous in the slightest. Just another sad little Islamist stinking up this thread.

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

Actually I did understand them, once they were translated. Care to tell me what was stupid about them?

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

wait, you are the same bellend that posted a link to BONNI INTALL's hate site and you say my comments are stupid..

Hats off to you - well played that man!

Glad you enjoyed the link.

And there's a reason there're so many anti-Islam hate sites. Can you guess?

No need to guess. Are they helpful or a place to vent? TV has people with some strange views compared to me. Great, that is what it is about.

[MrTee]

2010 in the US there were 39,518 deaths caused by self harm.. deport the selfs!

This thread maybe not the best place for stupid jokes.

so you now feel the need to shutup any satire on this sacred of all sacred threads

well played - you just joined the ranks of those you despise.

You really are an idiot. Your post wasn't satire. Far from it. You're not humorous in the slightest. Just another sad little Islamist stinking up this thread.

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

Actually I did understand them, once they were translated. Care to tell me what was stupid about them?

Except C E's jokes weren't stupid. Dangerous maybe...

wait, you are the same bellend that posted a link to BONNI INTALL's hate site and you say my comments are stupid..

Hats off to you - well played that man!

Glad you enjoyed the link.

And there's a reason there're so many anti-Islam hate sites. Can you guess?

try to get over your rage - maybe then you'll be able to post without screwing up the quotes.

Edited January 11, 2015 by MrTee

[alanrchase]

According to the French government there are 751 such zones inside France, more in other European nations. Mail carriers, police, firefighters do not enter.

7x7 will be along shortly to tell you that the French Government are lying.

He has stated numerous times on this forum, that there is no such things as no-go areas anywhere in Europe.

Anyone who says that these no-go areas do exist are immediately branded racist Islamaphobes or other such niceties.

Must be amazing living in his world.

No go zones don't exist, Islam is the religion of peace . . .

People with an ounce of sense are starting to see through this bs. All of this has been really eye opening. Fat chance of no go zones ever happening in US now. Things here will be changing soon once we get an effective President with cojones in 2016. All these nutty terrorist acts all over the world are all but assuring a change in Public sentiment.

If my memory serves the West has been bombing the Muslim communities for the last 15 or so years. Should they up the payload on the bomber aircraft? A static to ponder. More weight of bombs were dropped by the anti Vietcong forces during that "conflict" than were dropped in WWE. Frightening.

Sorry, but you are barely coherent.

US has taken desperate measures to protect its homeland in the wake of 911. National security is our top priority. If not kept in check, we see crap like Boko Haram, ISIS, Syria and etc. and we need to do whatever is in our power to keep that crap off US streets.

Barely coherent? Boko Haram? Point was you can bomb the cr*p out of a country and basically achieve nothing.

[Lissos]

Earlier I was watching rolling footage of this mass gathering in Paris, on al Jazzera (incidentally, the rolling news bar below it was a case of one after another news of the latest Islamist atrocity carried out somewhere across an expanse as large as from North / West Africa, Syria to Afghanistan). In Paris, call me cynical but most of it was a cringeworthy act of theatre, focused on so called 'world leaders' who allegedly cherish free expression. While 100s of 1000s of people gathered round some totem pole of 'freedom of expession' and democracy, one of the reporters mentioned that some survivors of the attack on the office were not at all impressed by the march itself, claiming that in recent days suddenly they have all these new friends who were ambigous at best or deeply against them and their work before the attack. In the make up of 'world leaders' we also saw Gulf leaders, who I am confident don't give a toss about democracy nor support the freedom of expression to mock the prophet of Islam, but were concerned with maintaining business links lest the atmosphere turn a bit sour. Reporters mentioned that many Parisians, particularly in the Muslim community, were angry at Benjamin Netanyahu being present among the leaders in Paris. Reason? Because, they say this march is supposedly about unity and they claim Netanyahu is not about unity but division.

In the same breath, these people didn't want Netanyahu there at all, a clear sign of 'division' if you ask me. Was Netanyahu there with an agenda? Of course, all the present leaders were there with an agenda and Netanyahu was open about the other side of his reason for being there. He openly invitged that if French Jews want a safe haven then come to Israel after what has been happening to Jewish communities in France in recent years. However, so did Abbas who was there, have an agenda, looking rather chilly in the cold paris air. Abbas needs the French so badly in his connections.

European leaders jostled to get their face seen the most clearly at the front of the 'walk for freedom'. Netanyahu didn't appear at the front until several minutes into the march, probably down to security risks given how unwelcome he is said to be in Paris today. Snipers were on rooftops allegedly, but given the general hostility to Israel in France, still a wise decision if you ask me. Occasionally I'd flip over to BBC to see how they portrayed it all. One reporter interviewed an Iranian dissident in the crowd who immediately said these attacks had nothing 'whatsoever' to do with Islam, and then used the rest of her time on camera as an open forum to slam the Iranian Regime. Overall the meme of the day seemed to be that - "the pen is mightier than the sword" (a huge pencil was held aloft to illustrate), a nice ideal but in reality our western nations do not hold freedom of expression to be an absolute because it probably isn't realistic, yet the claim is still made. We too have our 'no go' subjects that can get you into trouble with law, and we know it well. Internet comments can get people arrested and charged, the police admit to monitoring social media and if certain statutes don't prevent people mocking aspects of Islam in publications or television, then a general fear that you or your family might be slaughtered for doing so, remains and self censors many comedians and editors of publications. At times I fell for the spirit of the whole thing,but then again I attended a march for 'free expression' years ago and found the British police taking photos and video footage of everyone present, also checking the plackards before hand and during it all to ensure that nobody was writing things that controvened a plethora of laws. I saw the paris march as grand theatre.

[Morch]

I saw this - wondered what other posters may think

Ahmed the policeman died in the line of duty.

I have no idea if he was a devout Muslim or what were his opinions on the civilians he was tasked to keep safe.

Actually think it is a bit low to use such a manipulation (but willing to take it back if there is something to show otherwise).

Basically the above is painting Ahmed the policeman along the lines of the stereotypical generic Muslim image - religiously devout, culturally rooted in a foreign land. Doesn't sound like a good multicultural point of view. For all I know (and again, could be wrong, of course) Ahmed the policeman could have led rather sacrilegious life, was more interested in things French than wherever his family originated from and might have even sniggered at the cartoons drawn by the people he guarded.

Is the tweeter guy who posted this family, close friend, fellow police officer?

I cannot speak for the person that tweeted it, but what his family said today was surely the voice of reason.. had it been my brother I may just have been a bit more outraged, but come on you bigots here is a muslim standing up for the very same principles that you claim to subscribe to.

either you are for bigotry or you are against it..

Please feel free to express you self .

Is it funny that the pigs that unleashed this atrocity are no different from the pigs now calling for the murder of all muslims?

These evilldooers believe they speak for the whole of the Islamic world, are you going to put them on a pedestal by agreeing with them ?

No idea what his family said, and nothing I said was even remotely bigoted.

But you were going on about loving each other and bacon?

No idea what you're on about with calls for murdering all Muslims and pedestals.

Have some bacon and chill.

[MrTee]

I saw this - wondered what other posters may think

Ahmed the policeman died in the line of duty.

I have no idea if he was a devout Muslim or what were his opinions on the civilians he was tasked to keep safe.

Actually think it is a bit low to use such a manipulation (but willing to take it back if there is something to show otherwise).

Basically the above is painting Ahmed the policeman along the lines of the stereotypical generic Muslim image - religiously devout, culturally rooted in a foreign land. Doesn't sound like a good multicultural point of view. For all I know (and again, could be wrong, of course) Ahmed the policeman could have led rather sacrilegious life, was more interested in things French than wherever his family originated from and might have even sniggered at the cartoons drawn by the people he guarded.

Is the tweeter guy who posted this family, close friend, fellow police officer?

I cannot speak for the person that tweeted it, but what his family said today was surely the voice of reason.. had it been my brother I may just have been a bit more outraged, but come on you bigots here is a muslim standing up for the very same principles that you claim to subscribe to.

either you are for bigotry or you are against it..

Please feel free to express you self .

Is it funny that the pigs that unleashed this atrocity are no different from the pigs now calling for the murder of all muslims?

These evilldooers believe they speak for the whole of the Islamic world, are you going to put them on a pedestal by agreeing with them ?

No idea what his family said, and nothing I said was even remotely bigoted.

But you were going on about loving each other and bacon?

No idea what you're on about with calls for murdering all Muslims and pedestals.

Have some bacon and chill.

Apologies.. I never meant to call you a bigot.. I was referring to some of the other posts I've read on this topic.

Reading back on my comment it does appear that I was directing my comments at you, but that wasn't my intention.

I am sorry If I offended you

[Morch]

This is political theatre not to be taken seriously. A real journalist or a more talented interviewer would have picked Choudary apart. Hannity is a blunt, unsubtle instrument in the manufactured culture wars, pretty much confined to the US context. This is meant to drive ratings and income for the corporation behind this media outlet.

Rushdie started to talk about this on Bill Maher's Real Time the other day. I listen to Salman Rushdie. He has been engaged deeply on these issues for a long time.

Choudary is difficult to listen to but basically a provocateur. The trick is to not be provoked. If you believe in free speech, then you have to let him speak. People like this have little moderation. If you have well crafted laws and strong institutions, generally you can give them enough rope to hang themselves. If they stray into hate speech or actual incitement of actions to aid and support terrorist activities then you can get them. Just like Abu Hamza.

Could a non-Muslim carry on like Choudary and get away with it in the UK?

Is there an equivalent non-Muslim minority figure going on in the same style and getting away with it?

How would either of the above fare in any Muslim country if trying something of the sort?

It would not be allowed. But isn't that the great thing about Western democracies? Free speech.

It is allowed; you only have to look at the activities of people like Tommy Robinson and Pat Condell to see that!

Yes, free speech is one of the cornerstones of Western democracy.

"I abhor what you have to say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." (Original source unknown, but often attributed to Voltaire.)

*posts removed to allow reply*

As much as I am not a fan of Pat Condell, do you actually believe that his clips are anything close to Choudary's level?

Or this? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paris-shootings-british-hate-preachers-4957281#rlabs=1 Or Hamza?

Just wondering if we could get some perspective here.