Buddism & Iced Cappuchino...

[SiSePuede419]

Just saw three young monks enjoying an iced cappuchino this afternoon. And it's not even particularly hot here today.

I thought one of the rules was no food after noon.

OK, coffee has no calories, so technically it's not a food (but it is an "intoxicant" or stimulant, right?).

But sugar, milk and cream all have calories. Not food?

[Brucenkhamen]

Coffee is allowable at any time (it's stimulant not an intoxicant), as are coffeemate and sugar.

Milk is not allowable in the afternoon depending on how strict the monastery they are from interprets the rules. If this is the worst they've been up to then they are doing pretty good.

[SiSePuede419]

"Coffee is allowable at any time (it's stimulant not an intoxicant)"

Ohhh.

So, green tea, black tea, yaa baa, diet pills, cocaine and crack are all OK, since they're stimulants?

I'm guessing the Monks underwear drawers must be very organized...

[RichCor]

Contrary to many assumed beliefs, Monks don't wear underwear and instead tend to go 'commando' (sans underwear) so lack underwear drawers with which to organize, or to hide contraband.

How many years does a Monk need to practice before you believe they should be totally pure of your bad habits?

I have yet to meet a perfect Monk. I've met some really 'nice' ones, but most seem to start off as flawed as I am.

[Brucenkhamen]

So, green tea, black tea, yaa baa, diet pills, cocaine and crack are all OK, since they're stimulants?

I really don't think that caffeine (whether in tea, coffee, or chocolate etc) is comparable to yaa baa, cocaine, and crack.

I don't see the relevancy of diet pills either.

[SiSePuede419]

So, green tea, black tea, yaa baa, diet pills, cocaine and crack are all OK, since they're stimulants?

I really don't think that caffeine (whether in tea, coffee, or chocolate etc) is comparable to yaa baa, cocaine, and crack.

I don't see the relevancy of diet pills either.

Chemically, everything I quoted is classified as a 'stimulant'.

Chemistry is based on physical facts, not opinions.

555

[rockyysdt]

Quote:

Just saw three young monks enjoying an iced cappuchino this afternoon. And it's not even particularly hot here today.
I thought one of the rules was no food after noon.
OK, coffee has no calories, so technically it's not a food (but it is an "intoxicant" or stimulant, right?).
But sugar, milk and cream all have calories. Not food?

Then what do you deduce from this?

[Brucenkhamen]

Chemically, everything I quoted is classified as a 'stimulant'.

Chemistry is based on physical facts, not opinions.

You are right, from a chemistry point of view the drugs we are talking about come under both stimulants and intoxicants, thanks for the clarification. However the precept is more interested in the affect on the mind and the behaviour than on the chemistry.

The wording of the precept is Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā which literally means "fermented drinks which cause heedlessness" ie alcohol. It's generally accepted that other drugs that have similar affects to alcohol should also be abstained from under this precept.

I haven't heard of anyone getting into a brawl because of too much iced cappucinno, or having unprotected sex because of too much iced cappucinno, or commiting domestic violence because of too much iced cappucinno, or having a car accident because of too much iced cappucinno, or waking up next to a total stranger and wondering what happened last night because of too much iced cappucinno, or dying from an overdose of iced cappucinno.

[SiSePuede419]

"I haven't heard of anyone getting into a brawl because of too much iced cappucinno, or having unprotected sex because of too much iced cappucinno, or commiting domestic violence because of too much iced cappucinno, or having a car accident because of too much iced cappucinno, or waking up next to a total stranger and wondering what happened last night because of too much iced cappucinno, or dying from an overdose of iced cappucinno."

Cool!

Then ganja & shrooms should be OK, too.

Since they promote 'mindfulness, self-awareness and introspection'.

Now, that little thing about "celibacy", 555

And the shaved head. Currently I have long hair. Is long hair prohibited?

[SiSePuede419]

Quote:

Just saw three young monks enjoying an iced cappuchino this afternoon. And it's not even particularly hot here today.

I thought one of the rules was no food after noon.

OK, coffee has no calories, so technically it's not a food (but it is an "intoxicant" or stimulant, right?).

But sugar, milk and cream all have calories. Not food?

Then what do you deduce from this?

You're right I don't know for sure if they had sugar, but if you ever drink an iced cappuchino, you'll notice some white at the top of the ice remaining after the coffee is consumed...

[Mr Somtam]

Criticising others is NOT the path to nibbana....

[SiSePuede419]

Criticising others is NOT the path to nibbana....

You make thousands of judgements everyday about people, places and things.

If you make no judgements, you are technically 'dead'...

[sfokevin]

The point was well made that you are not on a path to nibbana...

[Mr Somtam]

Paying attention to OTHER PEOPLE not following the precepts has never helped anyone progressing towards understanding of dhamma...

Just saying.

[SiSePuede419]

"The point was well made that you are not on a path to nibbana.

See? That statement is a judgement, 555.

"Paying attention to OTHER PEOPLE not following the precepts has never helped anyone progressing towards understanding of dhamma."

In your opinion? Another judgement.

Many beliefs are irrational, limiting and destructive.

It's just dogma that milk and cream contains no calories and is not food.

It's not a fact.

But religious nutters, Blissninnies, Conservatives and many TVF members apparently has shields around their minds, which prevents facts from entering.

555

Edited January 15, 2015 by SiSePuede419

[Mr Somtam]

BTW, Buddha never shaved his head. That's just Dogma:

"The first thing Gautam Buddha did after leaving his father's palace was to severe his long and beautiful hair with his princely blade. He thought, "These locks of mine are not suited to a monk; but there is no one to cut the hair of a future Buddha. Therefore I will cut them off myself with my sword." And grasping a scimitar with his right hand, he seized his top-knot with his left hand, and cut it off, together with his jewelled turban. His hair thus became two finger-breadths in length, and curling to the right, lay close to his head. As long as he lived it remained of that length."

Two fingers length. And wavy. Just like Jesus's hair--wooly.

That's a "Jew-fro", 555

Stop goosestepping to mindless Dogma and learn to think for yourselves, 555

I think the buddha was talking about "thinking for yourself" in the Kalama Sutta:

Kalama Sutta

The people of Kalama asked the Buddha who to believe out of all the ascetics, sages, venerables, and holy ones who, like himself, passed through their town. They complained that they were confused by the many contradictions they discovered in what they heard. The Kalama Sutta is the Buddha's reply.

– Do not believe anything on mere hearsay. – Do not believe in traditions merely because they are old and have been handed down for many generations and in many places. – Do not believe anything on account of rumors or because people talk a a great deal about it. – Do not believe anything because you are shown the written testimony of some ancient sage. – Do not believe in what you have fancied, thinking that, because it is extraordinary, it must have been inspired by a god or other wonderful being. – Do not believe anything merely because presumption is in its favor, or because the custom of many years inclines you to take it as true. – Do not believe anything merely on the authority of your teachers and priests. – But, whatever, after thorough investigation and reflection, you find to agree with reason and experience, as conducive to the good and benefit of one and all and of the world at large, accept only that as true, and shape your life in accordance with it.

The same text, said the Buddha, must be applied to his own teachings.

– Do not accept any doctrine from reverence, but first try it as gold is tried by fire.

Just saying...

[rockyysdt]

"The point was well made that you are not on a path to nibbana.

See? That statement is a judgement, 555.

"Paying attention to OTHER PEOPLE not following the precepts has never helped anyone progressing towards understanding of dhamma."

In your opinion? Another judgement.

Many beliefs are irrational, limiting and destructive.

It's just dogma that milk and cream contains no calories and is not food.

It's not a fact.

But religious nutters, Blissninnies, Conservatives and many TVF members apparently has shields around their minds, which prevents facts from entering.

555

Don't forget S P.

Anyone attempting to follow the path is subject to the same issues as everyone else.

The only difference is, that some have become acquainted with the challenges ahead (Dharma) and have some kind of path to attempt to navigate.

Acknowledging such a path doesn't bestow special powers.

We are all vulnerable to greed aversion and delusion.

Whether a Monk, or not all are exposed to the three poisons.

Unless awakened, over time, we all err.

Do such events diminish the teaching, or are they just examples of how difficult the path is?

Does pointing these out make you feel special?

PS: I'm glad you were able to find examples which support your beliefs.

Humans begin with beliefs and look for evidence to support their position.

Yes, I am governed (conditioning) just as you are.

Embracing Buddhism doesn't eliminate my conditioning, just as it doesn't the Monks you observed.

Does this mitigate the teaching?

Edited January 15, 2015 by rockyysdt

[Mr Somtam]

"The point was well made that you are not on a path to nibbana.

See? That statement is a judgement, 555.

"Paying attention to OTHER PEOPLE not following the precepts has never helped anyone progressing towards understanding of dhamma."

In your opinion? Another judgement.

Many beliefs are irrational, limiting and destructive.

It's just dogma that milk and cream contains no calories and is not food.

It's not a fact.

But religious nutters, Blissninnies, Conservatives and many TVF members apparently has shields around their minds, which prevents facts from entering.

555

Don't forget S P.

Anyone attempting to follow the path is subject to the same issues as everyone else.

The only difference is, that some have become acquainted with the challenges ahead (Dharma) and have some kind of path to attempt to navigate.

Acknowledging such a path doesn't bestow special powers.

We are all vulnerable to greed aversion and delusion.

Whether a Monk, or not all are exposed to the three poisons.

Unless awakened, over time, we all err.

Do such events diminish the teaching, or are they just examples of how difficult the path is?

Does pointing these out make you feel special?

PS: I'm glad you were able to find examples which support your beliefs.

Humans begin with beliefs and look for evidence to support their position.

Yes, I am governed (conditioning) just as you are.

Embracing Buddhism doesn't eliminate my conditioning, just as it doesn't the Monks you observed.

Does this mitigate the teaching?

WISE words

[sabaijai]

So, green tea, black tea, yaa baa, diet pills, cocaine and crack are all OK, since they're stimulants?

I really don't think that caffeine (whether in tea, coffee, or chocolate etc) is comparable to yaa baa, cocaine, and crack.

I don't see the relevancy of diet pills either.

Agreed. Even if we were to relate them conceptually, monks live within the laws of the land.

[sabaijai]

"The point was well made that you are not on a path to nibbana.

See? That statement is a judgement, 555.

"Paying attention to OTHER PEOPLE not following the precepts has never helped anyone progressing towards understanding of dhamma."

In your opinion? Another judgement.

Many beliefs are irrational, limiting and destructive.

It's just dogma that milk and cream contains no calories and is not food.

It's not a fact.

But religious nutters, Blissninnies, Conservatives and many TVF members apparently has shields around their minds, which prevents facts from entering.

555

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[infinity11]

I too was surprised to find out that Thai Buddhist monks are allowed to drink coke, not what i call conducive to higher paths, but different strokes...

They also can eat meat they just aren't allowed to kill it.

Correct me if i am wrong.

[rockyysdt]

I too was surprised to find out that Thai Buddhist monks are allowed to drink coke, not what i call conducive to higher paths, but different strokes...

They also can eat meat they just aren't allowed to kill it.

Correct me if i am wrong.

My understanding is that Monks eat from food offered during Alms rounds.

If Coke is not offered during alms, then it's technically not possible for a Monk to drink it.

As far as Monks going to a shop and buying Coke to drink, firstly they shouldn't be handling money, and secondly this goes against Alms being the way to obtain food.

I would say it would be very unwise for a Monk to walk into a shop and buy a Coke.

If this was observed, perhaps it was a young person who has entered Monkhood for a temporary period as a novice in order to please his family.

As his stint is a right of passage rather than a chosen path, drinking a Coke or Cappuccino won't cause him to have sleepless nights.

Edited February 17, 2015 by rockyysdt

[pinkpanther99]

Coffee? That's nothing.

I regularly see monks in the Apple store in Hua Hin buying iPhones, iPads, as well as buying all manner of gadgets at one of the many mobile phones shops on the third floor of Market Village.

I saw a monk sporting a pair of Beats by Dre headphones the other day.

How does this work with Buddhism? Excuse my ignorance but I thought monks were meant to live a life without material goods? Or does this not extend to state of the art gadgets from the world's most profitable company?

To be fair, who can blame them. The new iPhone is great.

Joking aside, this is a serious question.

There are so many things I don't understand about Buddhism, and many other religions for that matter.

Edited February 20, 2015 by pinkpanther99

[hookedondhamma]

I don't think many westerners will ever get the way things work in thailand, let alone the different takes on Buddhism there are here. Some busybodies are so caught up, doing THE most with THE least.

It would just be easier to realize their sense of entitlement and privilege they had in their own countries doesn't apply here.

It's somewhat nice seeing thais not give a damn about what foreigners think, for the most part.

I remember meeting one of these foreign pundit nutters. It's one of the reasons thai temples rarely ordain foreigners. Unfortunate really, but the actions of one entitled foreigner block the road for others in the future who actually want to work on themselves from the inside out.

[camerata]

As long as the laity shower monks with money, some of the monks will use it to buy cool gadgets. After all, many of them are only in the monkhood temporarily.

[loong]

Contrary to many assumed beliefs, Monks don't wear underwear and instead tend to go 'commando' (sans underwear) so lack underwear drawers with which to organize, or to hide contraband.

How many years does a Monk need to practice before you believe they should be totally pure of your bad habits?

I have yet to meet a perfect Monk. I've met some really 'nice' ones, but most seem to start off as flawed as I am.

I'm surprised. I understood that it is against the law to go out without underwear in Thailand.

[RichCor]

Contrary to many assumed beliefs, Monks don't wear underwear and instead tend to go 'commando' (sans underwear) so lack underwear drawers with which to organize, or to hide contraband.

How many years does a Monk need to practice before you believe they should be totally pure of your bad habits?

I have yet to meet a perfect Monk. I've met some really 'nice' ones, but most seem to start off as flawed as I am.

I'm surprised. I understood that it is against the law to go out without underwear in Thailand.

Buddhist Monks have their own unique set of rules. And dress code.

[anon4546543]

I am a newbie, so I probably should not enter this debate. But I find the original complaint to be a tad pedantic if not divisive. Not all young monks are in for the long haul, but nearly all live a quite restrictive and demanding lifestyle. But My village is in the boonies (sorry, picked up that term from the yanks) and I have yet to find a "bad" monk. And who is to say that the iced coffee was not given to these young blokes freely by the shop owner. If this is the worst that they do on their search for the ultimate truth, then they can line up at my place every afternoon for an iced coffee

[Classic Ray]

All this from an iced cappuccino? This forum never ceases to amaze me!

[KhnomKhnom]

What is with grumpy foreigners, non Buddhists, near hate for monks? Seems raw jealousy over their idealized kneejerk idea of monks' lives.