'Third gender' will be acknowledged in the new Thai constitution

[webfact]

CONSTITUTION WATCH
'Third gender' will be acknowledged in the new constitution
NITIPOL KIRAVANICH
THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- THE CONSTITUTION Drafting Committee (CDC) agreed yesterday to note the "third gender" or people of different sexuality in the new Constitution, a move likely to empower transgender people so they have rights equal to others in society under the law.

It will be the first time the gender will be acknowledged in a constitution.

The second day of charter drafting, article by article, included the section on civilian, citizens' and people's rights stipulated by the charter as under the 2007 Constitution.

Article 4 stipulates that the rights of human beings, dignity or freedom of people will be provided protection under the law.

It is followed by Article 5, which states that a Thai person no matter where they were born, what gender or religion they are, should be protected equally.

In the above article, many CDC members proposed to add the term "third gender or different sexualities" so such people have rights stipulated clearly in the new charter as well.

A CDC member explained that previous charters never stated this term or inserted it in any related articles. But it was mentioned in the intent of law under the 2007 Constitution, which by adding the term could mean it empowers this group of people to have rights equal to others in society under the law.

Another CDC member voiced support for the proposal, adding that it would be clearer to clarify who such people are in the charter as well.

CDC president Borwornsak Uwanno granted that the term "third gender" would be inserted in the draft, but said if they explained more on who such people were or stated the term further than "different sexualities" it could affect the proportionality of |the charter more than was necessary.

He said people already understood who they were with the term "third gender".

Further, in regard to civil rights, one member suggested that the draft should include the meaning "the rights of every civilian", stating that every citizen has rights equal from one to another.

He said there were issues in some occupations that showed discrimination towards those who were overweight, too tall or short, and the charter should cover this important topic seriously.

Therefore the CDC president agreed to the suggestion, but explained that in regard to this topic it was mentioned clearly in previous charters and that the concept of this charter was for everyone have the same rights and freedom under the law.

Borwornsak said that in the real world there was discrimination that could not be eliminated, but there were two kinds - one was fair discrimination and the other was unfair discrimination.

For instance, if 500 people applied to be government officials, but an agency only accepted one of them, that was fair discrimination that could be accepted in society, the CDC president explained.

Other scenarios were a woman not being allowed to be veterinarian, or a person who wanted to be a nurse who was under 150 centimetres tall being disqualified from such jobs - that was unfair discrimination, Borwornsak said.

He said "fair" discrimination was not accepted by the Constitution but condoned by society, while unfair discrimination could not be tolerated.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Third-gender-will-be-acknowledged-in-the-new-const-30251845.html


-- The Nation 2015-01-14

[Thai at Heart]

I don't understand the need to define a third gender to prevent discrimination.

Will discrimination magically disappear because of this definition? If so, maybe everyone should change their gender to get better protection.

A person is a person, there is no need to create genders to protect people.

[Jingthing]

Thailand might be wise to look at the ground breaking constitution of SOUTH AFRICA:

Under the heading "Equality", the section states:

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Nine_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa

From guidelines in constitutions, I would assume later court cases can be argued to clarify more details of law, such as the right of transgender people to change the gender on their ID card, the right of same sex marriages, etc., etc.

Somewhat bizarrely, the awareness of civil rights issues of transgender persons is much higher here than interest in gay and lesbian issues. The former is about gender identity and the latter is about sexual orientation identity.

From a human rights POV in Thailand and globally, of course BOTH are important.

From the article in the OP, it is sounding like the Thai obsession with the culturally specific idea of "third gender" (instead of just transgender persons) is all they are willing to deal with now ... and to leave out gay and lesbian equality language.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[JeremyBowskill]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

[HeijoshinCool]

For instance, if 500 people applied to be government officials, but an agency only accepted one of them, that was fair discrimination that could be accepted in society, the CDC president explained.

[Jingthing]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

It's more about what is in the brain of transgender persons than how they dress really. Some people strongly feel they were born into the wrong sex and can never be fulfilled as human beings until they do all they can to fix what they see as a mistake. Merely dressing in drag is not the same thing. That activity is sometimes enjoyed by both gay and straight men who have no gender identity issues at all.

It is my understanding that Thailand is the leading country in the world in gender reassignment surgical procedures (BOTH ways) with Iran being the number two spot.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jeremy50]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

Let's hope your children will be more enlightened than you are.

[BSJ]

Sounds like BS to me. The constitution should be about an individual's rights and obligations not their sexual preferences.

[JeremyBowskill]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

It's more about what is in the brain of transgender persons than how they dress really. Some people strongly feel they were born into the wrong sex and can never be fulfilled as human beings until they do all they can to fix what they see as a mistake. Merely dressing in drag is not the same thing. That activity is sometimes enjoyed by both gay and straight men who have no gender identity issues at all.

It is my understanding that Thailand is the leading country in the world in gender reassignment surgical procedures (BOTH ways) with Iran being the number two spot.

Yup, well I met a fella once who believed in his own brain that he was Genghis Khan (turns out he had just done way too much acid). Just because the brain believes something, I'm not sure that makes it so......

You can grow up and chop off your wedding tackle if you like, it doesn't move you to a third gender, it simply makes a step closer to the other gender.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JeremyBowskill

[Jingthing]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

[JeremyBowskill]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

[Somtamnication]

They need to add a fourth: farang. We need rights, too!

[Commerce]

They need to add a fourth: farang. We need rights, too!

x2 post

Edited January 14, 2015 by Commerce

[Commerce]

Nearly hit the nail. The OP states the constituion refers to all Thais, and not humans in general - so it is, in effect, racist!

[englishoak]

Im curious where they are going to put all the extra toilets ?

[TomYumpoochai]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

[maidee]

"Article 4 stipulates that the rights of human beings, dignity or freedom of people will be provided protection under the law."

still 2015 ... farangs are only ALIENS, not human beings, so normal rights for thais, do not apply to those ALIENS

[Gentmartin]

Unfortunately, because of strong discrimination, there is still a need to specify this '3rd gender', If in a perfect world, everyone was a humanist and treated everyone else with equal respect despite race, sexuality, gender then there would be no need for specifics. We could just use the term people. To the posters who ask why there should be a 3rd gender specified, I ask, " why should be ANY gender specific mentions in law or constitution at all ?

This Thai law is clumsily written, but Thailand is a leader in anti discriminatory efforts against the LGBT community. Their stance and mindset regarding sexism however is sadly lacking.

Either way, this should be praised as a good effort and a move in the right direction. All prejudice based on race, gender, sexuality or ethnicity is wrong. Lets all try to be a bit more tolerant today :-)

[Bakeman]

Think of the costs just for "Third gender" bathrooms?

[JeremyBowskill]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Silly me, here's me thinking it was man chopping of their <deleted> and turning the sausage inside out. I stand corrected.

[Alan653]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Seriously? How is that?

Were they "magically" born with a penis and testicles and a set of 34b breasts?

God created TWO (2) genders, male and feamale, not both in the same body.

And just how did "nature" create ladyboys?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Alan653

[Johnnie99]

There is no third gender. Very simple concept really.

If you think there is, can you explain to me what is 'down below'?

[berybert]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

You don't believe a person should believe what their brain is telling them Then you mention god. So there endeth your argument.

[Mitker]

Thailand might be wise to look at the ground breaking constitution of SOUTH AFRICA:

Under the heading "Equality", the section states:

(...) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, (...)

the difference between "sex" and "gender"?

[Gentmartin]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Seriously? How is that?

Were they "magically" born with a penis and testicles and a set of 34b breasts?

God created TWO (2) genders, male and feamale, not both in the same body.

And just how did "nature" create ladyboys?

Apologies for being a hypocrite after my previous post, i should of mentioned I am prejudiced against small minded unintelligent god bothering bigots..........

Lest we forget, In the beginning, (following your 'god created' logic).....god created hermaphrodites, androgony, acne, autism, muslim terrorists and justin Beiber..........and god was pleased with what he had created, even though 'man' was not so pleased, especially with Justin Beiber......

Parrot fish are sequential hermaphrodites, some types of snail are true hermaphrodites.........have fun with google....(god created that too )

Thank you god, amen.

[DM07]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Seriously? How is that?

Were they "magically" born with a penis and testicles and a set of 34b breasts?

God created TWO (2) genders, male and feamale, not both in the same body.

And just how did "nature" create ladyboys?

Yeah...your imaginary friend in the sky did that!

Why would anyone debate a 3rd gender, with people who might as well believe in a 900 year old dude with a big boat full of animals, talking snakes, guys who walk on water and that dinosaurs pooped on Adams lawn! #science , duh!

Actually, I find a 3rd gender much more believable!

Edited January 14, 2015 by DM07

[gemini81]

Well it's up to the Thais.

I'm sure it won't be anything nearly as good as the South Africa constitution and it remains to be seen if there will be any such language at all in the final document. This has come up before and led to nothing.

So those opposed to equality language for gender and sexuality minorities in Thailand, I doubt you have much to worry about.

Not opposed to it, doesn't effect me one way or the other. Do Believe god/nature creates genders, not man though.

Youre not really "grasping" the ladyboy concept, are you? Man doesnt 'make' ladyboys... nature does.

Get real, you sound like such a Trendy! Chicks with dicks are men. Just as the chromosomes suggest.

Edited January 14, 2015 by gemini81

[Sviss Geez]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

Let's hope your children will be more enlightened than you are.

Let's hope your children will be more normal than you're making yourself seem.

[granuaile]

Thailand might be wise to look at the ground breaking constitution of SOUTH AFRICA:

Under the heading "Equality", the section states:

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Nine_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa

From guidelines in constitutions, I would assume later court cases can be argued to clarify more details of law, such as the right of transgender people to change the gender on their ID card, the right of same sex marriages, etc., etc.

Somewhat bizarrely, the awareness of civil rights issues of transgender persons is much higher here than interest in gay and lesbian issues. The former is about gender identity and the latter is about sexual orientation identity.

From a human rights POV in Thailand and globally, of course BOTH are important.

From the article in the OP, it is sounding like the Thai obsession with the culturally specific idea of "third gender" (instead of just transgender persons) is all they are willing to deal with now ... and to leave out gay and lesbian equality language.

I agree and I really don't like the term "third gender" or even "transgender" over all... I think that protection AND recognition should be provided to all, and equal rights in all areas assured regardless of "gender identity or sexual orientation". I am not against someone self-labeling but I think such terms more often than not muddy the waters in distinguishing gender identity and sexual orientation and I think it would push many who are gay or lesbian into gender expressions that really are not who they are (I think that happens a lot with lesbian women being pushed towards being toms and gay men pushed towards being ladyboys - people should just be allowed to be themselves)...

[alex8912]

Some of these issues can affect each one of us. Take for example the case of Robert/ Cheryl Kosilek. Massachusetts tax payers have already paid for this prisoners psychotherapy , hormone treatment and electrolysis. They have also paid for huge lawyer fees and he/ she wants a sex change also to be paid for by Massachusetts taxpayers. There are appeals pending now. Oh I forgot to mention he/ she murdered his wife and is in jail for life. Just sayin.