'Third gender' will be acknowledged in the new Thai constitution

[DM07]

@JeremyBowskill

If you liked my post, I would assume, you didn't understand it!

...and I am not surprised!

[JeremyBowskill]

@JeremyBowskill

If you liked my post, I would assume, you didn't understand it!

...and I am not surprised!

Nope, I like sausages. Italian sausage, Polish sausage, German sausage, English sausage and hell even empty ladyboy sausage. Its a sausage thing.

I can unlike it, if its going to weigh heavy on yer mind..........

Edited January 15, 2015 by JeremyBowskill

[raybal5]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

[Jingthing]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

I agree. For some with calcified views, it's a waste of energy. But lots of people read stuff and never post.

[JeremyBowskill]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

I would answer but wet liberal will always be.......... you can fill in the rest!

Edited January 15, 2015 by JeremyBowskill

[JeremyBowskill]

So 7 countries out of 196 recognize a third gender and some how my view is the odd one out, don't make me laugh. Exactly who's views are twisted I'm wondering........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

Edited January 15, 2015 by JeremyBowskill

[Gentmartin]

So 7 countries out of 196 recognize a third gender and some how my view is the odd one out, don't make me laugh. Exactly who's views are twisted I'm wondering........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

........add attention whore to your CV...........

[JeremyBowskill]

So 7 countries out of 196 recognize a third gender and some how my view is the odd one out, don't make me laugh. Exactly who's views are twisted I'm wondering........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

........add attention whore to your CV...........

actually, nah if that's you most compelling argument, well I think we could be done here.

Edited January 15, 2015 by JeremyBowskill

[h90]

Thailand might be wise to look at the ground breaking constitution of SOUTH AFRICA:

Under the heading "Equality", the section states:

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Nine_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa

From guidelines in constitutions, I would assume later court cases can be argued to clarify more details of law, such as the right of transgender people to change the gender on their ID card, the right of same sex marriages, etc., etc.

Somewhat bizarrely, the awareness of civil rights issues of transgender persons is much higher here than interest in gay and lesbian issues. The former is about gender identity and the latter is about sexual orientation identity.

From a human rights POV in Thailand and globally, of course BOTH are important.

From the article in the OP, it is sounding like the Thai obsession with the culturally specific idea of "third gender" (instead of just transgender persons) is all they are willing to deal with now ... and to leave out gay and lesbian equality language.

I think the gender shouldn't be in the laws at all. The same for marriage.

Have only persons in the laws, no matter if male, female, third or fourth gender, all the same. No marriage in the laws. If you want to marry do it private and sign a contract. The country can offer 1 or several different approved marriage contracts. Gender doesn't matter.

Call it partnership contract. Strip the word marry from any meaning in laws.

Problem solved.

At the South African:

"(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth."

that means I can go to the South African embassy and demand a SA passport? Else they would discriminate me for not being born from SA parents.

[Seastallion]

Thailand might be wise to look at the ground breaking constitution of SOUTH AFRICA:

Under the heading "Equality", the section states:

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Nine_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa

From guidelines in constitutions, I would assume later court cases can be argued to clarify more details of law, such as the right of transgender people to change the gender on their ID card, the right of same sex marriages, etc., etc.

Somewhat bizarrely, the awareness of civil rights issues of transgender persons is much higher here than interest in gay and lesbian issues. The former is about gender identity and the latter is about sexual orientation identity.

From a human rights POV in Thailand and globally, of course BOTH are important.

From the article in the OP, it is sounding like the Thai obsession with the culturally specific idea of "third gender" (instead of just transgender persons) is all they are willing to deal with now ... and to leave out gay and lesbian equality language.

You're right. There's no need to mention any gender, just a need to say regardless of gender, sexual orientation, religion etc. People, regardless of blah blah, is all that needs to be said.

[Seastallion]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

I'd go further and say that "third gender" is not enough, and may even be deceiving and wrong.. Any gender, sexual identity or orientation should cover it.

[h90]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

Yes someone is not comfortable with the gender he/she was born and want to be the other gender. Or maybe want to be no gender at all.

But that still makes it 2 gender and not three. If a man get to be operated to look like a woman, you can either say now he is a woman or you can say he is still a man up to your political view. But there is no magical 3rd gender.

[Jingthing]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

Yes someone is not comfortable with the gender he/she was born and want to be the other gender. Or maybe want to be no gender at all.

But that still makes it 2 gender and not three. If a man get to be operated to look like a woman, you can either say now he is a woman or you can say he is still a man up to your political view. But there is no magical 3rd gender.

This "third gender" thing is deeply rooted in Thai traditional culture. I'm sure there are other traditional cultures with similar social structures to explain gender identity issues. I personally think Thailand would be better off ditching that model ... but it's their constitution and I don't see that the Thai mindset is going to change about that anytime soon.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[Caitrin]

Get off yer soapbox, whoever said life was going to be fair? Interesting that you don't think I live as a minority in Thailand, I have lived as a minority all my adult life! I don't wish people to make special dispensations for me, just to treat me the same as everyone else (not that it generally happens). I don't know if you are a transwhatever, so these operations are of some relevance to you, but as I quite like my sausage (although wouldn't mind a couple extra inches, just like every other man) so the hows and wherefore's are both of no consequence or interest to me. Yes it would be " great if we just magically didn't have to put up with discrimination because of equal rights for all humans" but its unlikely to pan out that way, so just deal with it without the need to add to natures gender numbers.

No. I get paid for being on this soapbox. I also happen to, you know, believe in what I say while on it. I didn't say you aren't a minority, I said your comments reminded me of people who aren't. I don't know that you aren't, but if you are a minority (and again, I mean globally, and white people are not a minority globally in terms of colonialist history, current wealth, or current political power), then it becomes harder for me to understand why you would not extend your own experience as a marginalised individual to other marginalised individuals.

Whether I am trans or not is really irrelevant to this discussion. If I was, and it made a difference to you, that just proves everything I've already written about cisgender people (you) being shitty. I made it clear that I am a journalist and academic who specialises in LGBT topics. That includes the T. That includes knowledge of these procedures. Whether I am cis or trans, my job would still require me to know this stuff in detail. And even then, obviously, I have the job because I believe in seeking equality for LGBT people, of which I happen to be one, so even without a job, a whole bunch of details on all sorts of LGBT topics would be personally important to me.

Gender and sex are not the same thing, although they do interact as was already repeatedly explained to you. The recognition of a third gender is recognising that individuals who are totally dimorphic (and many people are not, as mentioned, about 1 in 1000) can disagree with their designation at birth. Furthermore, if you are talking about nature's sex numbers, go back to that 1 in 1000, because there sure as heck are a lot more possibilities than cursory textbook definitions of "male" and "female." Nature loves diversity, that's how we get evolution. Nature won't just try everything once, it'll keep trying things. Yay for genetic and developmental variation. Welcome to the human condition.

[Caitrin]

Pointless exercise, there are only two genders male and female. A man who dresses as a chicken doesn't magically become a chicken does he, he's still just a man dressed as a chicken.

I would try to enlighten you but stupid ignorant is always stupid ignorant no matter how you try to educate it. Your ignorance is breathtakingly stupid. You clearly have never met anyone who was born one gender but is not at all comfortable with that gender. You clearly have no compassion. You are part of the reason why people feel compelled to legally define the rights of the third gender.

Yes someone is not comfortable with the gender he/she was born and want to be the other gender. Or maybe want to be no gender at all.

But that still makes it 2 gender and not three. If a man get to be operated to look like a woman, you can either say now he is a woman or you can say he is still a man up to your political view. But there is no magical 3rd gender.

Wrong. Genderqueer people are not women or men. They're both, or neither, or they fluctuate. See Native American two-spirit people, or see the Hidjra, or plenty of possibilities in Thailand who are non-binary. Third gender recognises these non-binary possibilities.

A binary trans woman (whose proper pronoun is she not he) is not a third gender. She's a woman. She fits in the binary. To properly respect her means having an administrative means of allowing her to change her assigned gender marker from M to F.

Don't confuse binary folks with non-binary folks. Most folks are binary, that's cisgender and transgender. Third gender is a valid but different conceptualisation.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Caitrin

[Jingthing]

Third gender may well be "valid" but if the Thai government thinks their model of "third gender" is the ONLY valid way of looking at differences in both sexual orientation AND gender identify, that leaves OUT a lot of people from their consideration. In case I haven't been clear, I think that really stinks. Maybe better than nothing ... but I'm not even sure about that in the long run as far as the bigger picture.

[jdinasia]

Some of these issues can affect each one of us. Take for example the case of Robert/ Cheryl Kosilek. Massachusetts tax payers have already paid for this prisoners psychotherapy , hormone treatment and electrolysis. They have also paid for huge lawyer fees and he/ she wants a sex change also to be paid for by Massachusetts taxpayers. There are appeals pending now. Oh I forgot to mention he/ she murdered his wife and is in jail for life. Just sayin.

I am not in Massachusetts.

[Caitrin]

Jingthing, it's a step in the right direction, but that's all it is; a single step. Not good, just better.

I really hate when people pull out examples like Kosilek. Here's the thing, we don't deny necessary medical care to cisgender prisoners, why should we deny it to transgender prisoners? In the US system, which Massachusetts is part of, denial of medical care is considered cruel and unusual punishment. Are there criminals who happen to be transgender? Sure. But if you're going to go down that road, let me just point out that the vast majority of prisoners everywhere are cisgender. And no one is using the cisgender status of ninety nine point somethingsomething percent of inmates to cast aspersion on the entire cisgender population. Because it would be absurd. It's equally absurd to base opinions of transgender people on the tiny portion of criminals, especially violent criminals who are transgender. And no, there is not a higher rate of criminality among trans people, either.

[losworld]

South Africa race issues:

Don't hide behind the race card please. Don't twist this for sake of your argument. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with acceptance of all people regardless of their color. No one should kill others. It is about equality and acceptance why can you not see this?

Edited January 15, 2015 by losworld

[Jingthing]

South Africa race issues:

Don't hide behind the race card please. Don't twist this for sake of your argument. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with acceptance of all people regardless of their color. No one should kill others. It is about equality and acceptance why can you not see this?

What I can see is that THIS topic has nothing to with race. Duh, I am most certainly not playing a race card. I am playing the OFF TOPIC card.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, it's a step in the right direction, but that's all it is; a single step. Not good, just better.

I really hate when people pull out examples like Kosilek. Here's the thing, we don't deny necessary medical care to cisgender prisoners, why should we deny it to transgender prisoners? In the US system, which Massachusetts is part of, denial of medical care is considered cruel and unusual punishment. Are there criminals who happen to be transgender? Sure. But if you're going to go down that road, let me just point out that the vast majority of prisoners everywhere are cisgender. And no one is using the cisgender status of ninety nine point somethingsomething percent of inmates to cast aspersion on the entire cisgender population. Because it would be absurd. It's equally absurd to base opinions of transgender people on the tiny portion of criminals, especially violent criminals who are transgender. And no, there is not a higher rate of criminality among trans people, either.

I think I might disagree with you on this.

Why?

Well, in normal countries constitutions last a long time and have major impact on the long term future of any country.

While that has not been the case in Thailand, who knows, maybe THIS new constitution will be the "final" constitution of this country.

If so, then codifying "third sex" as the ONLY model the most important document of the country recognizes could actually be a major handicap to looking at further legal reforms regarding orientation and gender identity in different ways.

My fear would be the Thai traditional culture concept of third sex could then be SET IN STONE ... and yes even force many Thais of different orientation or gender identity to FORCE themselves into that box against their will.

So of course nobody can see the future, but it can be argued and yes I am arguing it that this "step in the right direction" might appear good for the short term for SOME Thais, but in the longer term could very well be harmful for many MORE Thais.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[JeremyBowskill]

Get off yer soapbox, whoever said life was going to be fair? Interesting that you don't think I live as a minority in Thailand, I have lived as a minority all my adult life! I don't wish people to make special dispensations for me, just to treat me the same as everyone else (not that it generally happens). I don't know if you are a transwhatever, so these operations are of some relevance to you, but as I quite like my sausage (although wouldn't mind a couple extra inches, just like every other man) so the hows and wherefore's are both of no consequence or interest to me. Yes it would be " great if we just magically didn't have to put up with discrimination because of equal rights for all humans" but its unlikely to pan out that way, so just deal with it without the need to add to natures gender numbers.

No. I get paid for being on this soapbox. I also happen to, you know, believe in what I say while on it. I didn't say you aren't a minority, I said your comments reminded me of people who aren't. I don't know that you aren't, but if you are a minority (and again, I mean globally, and white people are not a minority globally in terms of colonialist history, current wealth, or current political power), then it becomes harder for me to understand why you would not extend your own experience as a marginalised individual to other marginalised individuals.

Whether I am trans or not is really irrelevant to this discussion. If I was, and it made a difference to you, that just proves everything I've already written about cisgender people (you) being shitty. I made it clear that I am a journalist and academic who specialises in LGBT topics. That includes the T. That includes knowledge of these procedures. Whether I am cis or trans, my job would still require me to know this stuff in detail. And even then, obviously, I have the job because I believe in seeking equality for LGBT people, of which I happen to be one, so even without a job, a whole bunch of details on all sorts of LGBT topics would be personally important to me.

Gender and sex are not the same thing, although they do interact as was already repeatedly explained to you. The recognition of a third gender is recognising that individuals who are totally dimorphic (and many people are not, as mentioned, about 1 in 1000) can disagree with their designation at birth. Furthermore, if you are talking about nature's sex numbers, go back to that 1 in 1000, because there sure as heck are a lot more possibilities than cursory textbook definitions of "male" and "female." Nature loves diversity, that's how we get evolution. Nature won't just try everything once, it'll keep trying things. Yay for genetic and developmental variation. Welcome to the human condition.

You never use 1 word when you can use 10 do you. I am unlikely to change your views and vice versa, lets just call the whole thing of eh. xx

[jcisco]

Keep it simple in the constitution and use people to refer to any human being. No need to specifically break down society in various constructs or assign special rights to any person. Doing so perpetuates the small minded and those who feel progressive and claim others don't get it, and demand special recognition.

K.I.S.S

Keep It Simple Stupid

[Caitrin]

You never use 1 word when you can use 10 do you. I am unlikely to change your views and vice versa, lets just call the whole thing of eh. xx

Words are important. Use the number of words necessary to get important details across. You are unlikely to change incorrect and outdated understanding of these issues, sure. However, this isn't really about you. It's about offering a counterpoint to other readers and stopping your spread of misinformation.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Caitrin

[timendres]

This topic has brilliantly demonstrated how governments leverage so-called "special interests" to divide the people and conquer them. Never fails.

Instead of simply accepting the simple and obvious concept that we are all human beings, and we all deserve to be free to pursue our life in the way that maximizes our happiness without hindering the ability of our fellow citizens to likewise pursue their happiness, we devolve into arguments over "junk" and "packages" and "genders" and "toilets".

Some time ago, some rather brilliant guys said it best, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (read human beings) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator (be it God or Nature) with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

That succinct statement still stands as one of the most well conceived concepts of human rights and the origin and purpose of government.

[Jingthing]

This topic has brilliantly demonstrated how governments leverage so-called "special interests" to divide the people and conquer them. Never fails.

Instead of simply accepting the simple and obvious concept that we are all human beings, and we all deserve to be free to pursue our life in the way that maximizes our happiness without hindering the ability of our fellow citizens to likewise pursue their happiness, we devolve into arguments over "junk" and "packages" and "genders" and "toilets".

Some time ago, some rather brilliant guys said it best, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (read human beings) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator (be it God or Nature) with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

That succinct statement still stands as one of the most well conceived concepts of human rights and the origin and purpose of government.

Easy for you to say.

Under the rule of that wording. black people were slaves, etc., etc.

[neverdie]

Sweet baby Jesus there's a lot of ignorance about being trans in this thread. Well, that, and blatant transphobia. I'll work my way backwards.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder according to the experts. That's precisely why the DSM designation was changed. The designation change is so that dysphoria, which comes from external sources can be successfully dealt with. It's not that there is anything inherently disordered about the transgender person's gender identity, but rather it's the fact that being transgender in a cisgender (that's most of you folks, if not all of you folks in this discussion) world causes stress. Why? Because as this thread proves, most cisgender people, and certainly cisgender institutions which is, you know, most institutions in every nation on the planet, tend to react badly to transgender people. You're proving it right now! The change was made because GID (D being for disorder) unfairly and incorrectly pathologised the natural reaction of trans people to a cis world: y'all stress trans people out, and you should really be better about that. It's not them, cis people; it's you.

Now, to physicality, as was pointed out, there are a number of potential chromosomal variances. But even more than that, sex and how we tie to the concept of gender (and gender is a social construction, a give and take between an internal identity and an externally recognised identity, not a biological fact) is made up of way more than chromosomes. There's genitalia, sure, but there is also hormone levels, brain structure, environmental factors affecting both, etc, etc. Truth is, there are a lot of "mutants" when you consider the widest possible definition of non-dimorphism. At least 1 in 1000. That's an awful lot of people when you consider absolute numbers. Some may have mild non-dimorphism, others may have very obvious non-dimorphism (intersex children with ambiguous genitalia at birth for example), but how these differences in "sex" affect an individual's understanding of their "gender," we're only starting to scratch the surface of the reality of their lived experiences. What we do know is that these lived experiences are real and they have some biological and physiological facets.

Now, as gender is a social construction, an identity which is a balance between internal identification and external identification, they idea of a third gender or a third sex is one which has long been recognised in many cultures, including Western European ones (although not so much after modern Christianity swept through). This is not new. Not new for Thailand, not new for the West, not new for humanity. As most people tend to look and act according to their society's binary gendering, some cultures have attempted to accommodate these individuals (individuals we might label as transgender or intersex or both in our modern Western terminology) by providing them with a third space. In truth, we probably need something more like a spectrum of human gender variance, or even a sphere, accounting for multiple axes of identification, recognition, expression, and presentation.

tl;dr Humans are complicated. Complicated isn't bad. Trans people are uncommon, but uncommon doesn't mean abnormal. Certainly not disordered.

On topic: this is a step in the right direction, but Thailand, which was rightly pointed out as one of the premiere countries for sex reassignment surgery both in technique and in numbers performed (not to mention in terms of affordability), needs to provide a way for individuals to change their gender marker. Right now binary trans people in Thailand (that is they do not see themselves as a third sex or third gender, but rather wholly male or wholly female, regardless of the original assignment at birth) cannot change their gender markers. Having the option of a third box is a good step, but it shouldn't be the only one.

That is the best post I've ever read on this form about this 'condition'. This should be Pinned by the mods. Perhaps some of the forums ignorant sods should read this and try to understand it. On second thoughts, why bother with these bigots & meatheads anyway.

Well done Caitrin. ?

[simonuk]

They need to add a fourth: farang. We need rights, too!

Will not ever ever happen

[jcisco]

tl;dr Humans are complicated. Complicated isn't bad. Trans people are uncommon, but uncommon doesn't mean abnormal. Certainly not disordered.

Very well said, and entirely wasted on most of the audience unfortunately, but I for one appreciated it. It make a rather compelling one sided argument so at least that piece of the discourse isn't any different.

One small thing to pick at, is your tl:dr Specifically uncommon is a synonym of abnormal in all facets barring the historical negativity associated with the word abnormal. I would suggest perhaps you utilize another word in making this argument a bit clearer, and to keep close to your own thoughts, again these I think are all synonymous with uncommon.

Just a suggestion, as all normal brings to mind for me is statistics and standard deviations. And in this abnormal is way off the mark as are most of the words below, but they aren't statistically charged (for some) and used so more flexible and accurate..

bizarre

deviant

exceptional

freakish

nontypical

perverse

perverted

strange,

unhealthy

unnatural

weird

And the take away from your post for me was, let me tell you, not let me chose from the choices you have offered. Seems reasonable in this case.

[raybal5]

So 7 countries out of 196 recognize a third gender and some how my view is the odd one out, don't make me laugh. Exactly who's views are twisted I'm wondering........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

The point I was making is that people like you have no compassion or empathy. You're probably a christian or some other religious hater. I wonder why morons like you are so interested in other peoples bedroom activities. Possibly because you are scared your own repressed sexuality might come out