US will send 400 troops to train moderate Syrian opposition

[Morch]

Funny. Some comedy is appreciated once in a while, even dark. All the previous posts have one thing in common- we tend to think this is a bad idea, and most seem to think this is a new idea. I will share something with you: The US has been training "moderate" jihadis from Syria at the King Abdullah Training Center outside of Amman. This facility teaches sniper, close quarter combat, house clearing, command and control, integration of forces, basic skills like mortar, small arms, call for fire, and direct action door kicking. I believe most of the instructors were former military, contractors. I know because I know the men. Nearly all of these trained "moderates" pledged allegiance or truce with al nursa/IS sometime after. (In defense of the center, they do train allied Jordanian Special Forces primarily. Few know King Abdullah was Special Forces and US special forces trained. A friend of mine used to HALO jump with him personally in training).

The same thing happened in Iraq at Camp Dublin. Soldiers were trained to execute high value missions under the ERT program, Emergency Response Teams. A great many of these "soldiers" immediately turned over into the al mahdi army. Will we ever learn?

All this latest fiasco does it take the same absurdity out of Jordan and officially place military special forces into the mix, like the guy above who noted the slippery slope of Vietnam- great analogy, and it applies. This is an intentional escalation. Anyone with the remotest knowledge of this region knows there are no moderates, this is an invention of for western consumption. "Moderates" would have zero legitimacy in the sunni world. This is also a very good example of islamic Taqiyya- deceit.

The following URL provides much better info on the intent and timing for the training program that complements existing training facilities in places such as Jordan and Iraq. Note it claims it is expected those approved for training will likely take up to a year to be ready for deployment. As usual there is not any commentary on who is expected to govern re-captured territory nor the long term plan for Assad’s regime.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/16/us/syria-rebel-training/

I have to admit I get somewhat confused with the thrust of your posts. You seem to make it clear in your opinion US attempts to achieve regional balance of power with various Islamic extremist groups has been a strategic error. It’s very easy to critic, correct me if I’m wrong, yet given your background, you do not appear to present any solutions.

Yes, I was called on this yesterday, much less politely than you have. Why do I offer facts and opinions but shy away from solutions? Fair. I answered this but will do again more simply.

First, it is a strategic error to seek any balance of power in the region using any islamic extremists groups. You may think you are sharing a path for mutual benefit, but most certainly they are not going to the same place the West is going. A cursory review of relevant, core, islamic doctrine reveals its a fool's errand to seek to employ islamic jihadists in the cause of the west; in alliances. Islam has a highly evolved blueprint for when, how, if to enter into treaties and alliances and all the mechanics of abusing them, manipulating, and exiting the alliance when the notion suits the islamist. They may join you, take training and money, but they will never serve you. The central islamic concept of taqiyya allows just this. I am uncertain you could even call this a strategic error without first defining a Western strategy- there is none declared. By the West's own admission, repeatedly, there is no strategic policy; only local, reactionary efforts. Ostensibly, a plan called Which Path to Persia outlines a possible blueprint, but if so, the West has screwed this up as well. Herein the effort is to cripple the shia with insurgency all around it. The blowback is already legendary. http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2009/6/iran%20strategy/06_iran_strategy.pdf

Second, it may be easy for others to critique this or that, it is not easy for me. The complexities, overlapping alliances, tribal allegiances, and shifting sides make this a terribly complex mess. From the Israeli/Palestinian problem to the strongmen holding jihadists in check, from impairing Iranian hegemony, to ousting Assad without confronting Russia, from Turkish cleansing of Kurds, to Turkish help sought to help Kurds---- nothing in this region is easy to critique. But some things remain true- The West is unleashing forces for regional ends without likewise adjusting policies at home which then enable these forces to seamlessly wed the battlefield with Antwerp, London, New York, or Paris. There is no "strategy." It is not easy to critique but there are a series of valid observations and historical facts that can enlighten the morass.

I don't offer solutions because I am waiting for others to offer the solutions I think are required; its that simple, and that evasive. My comments have no less validity because some standard- "I don't offer solutions" is not being met. In a very short amount of time previously unlikely solutions will quickly appear to be the only solutions. It is not my place to offer these here. I can do nothing useful by musing here.

Edit: I watched the link; this only legitimizes training that has already been ongoing with contractors and allies. This legitimizes, retrospectively, the assinine arms transfers from Libya, to caucauses, the Turkey, to al Nursa. This policy now openly invites uniformed Special Forces and others to train an impossibly weak and unmotivated minority force (if one can be cobbled together) to tackle both Assad, while what? marginalizing or managing the combined rebel threat on the battlefield? No, this will not work. This is a quagmire. (Reminds me of the movie Wag The Dog).

Agree with a number of points you raise. As you rightly highlight issues are so complex and interwined. Very challenging to seperate the trees from the woods to put in-place co-ordinated policy objectives. Have to say I am dismayed by the number of posters who heavily critique every move by Western leaders without any reasonable alternate view or put up, in my opinion, extreme right wing 'solutions'.

On the issue of Taqiyya, surely Western policy / decision makers are professionally briefed by subject matter experts on Islamic ideology / philosophy and plan accordingly. Is not Taqiyya no different to dissimulation that Western thinking is well versed in for national security matters?

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

[arjunadawn]

The following URL provides much better info on the intent and timing for the training program that complements existing training facilities in places such as Jordan and Iraq. Note it claims it is expected those approved for training will likely take up to a year to be ready for deployment. As usual there is not any commentary on who is expected to govern re-captured territory nor the long term plan for Assad’s regime.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/16/us/syria-rebel-training/

I have to admit I get somewhat confused with the thrust of your posts. You seem to make it clear in your opinion US attempts to achieve regional balance of power with various Islamic extremist groups has been a strategic error. It’s very easy to critic, correct me if I’m wrong, yet given your background, you do not appear to present any solutions.

Yes, I was called on this yesterday, much less politely than you have. Why do I offer facts and opinions but shy away from solutions? Fair. I answered this but will do again more simply.

First, it is a strategic error to seek any balance of power in the region using any islamic extremists groups. You may think you are sharing a path for mutual benefit, but most certainly they are not going to the same place the West is going. A cursory review of relevant, core, islamic doctrine reveals its a fool's errand to seek to employ islamic jihadists in the cause of the west; in alliances. Islam has a highly evolved blueprint for when, how, if to enter into treaties and alliances and all the mechanics of abusing them, manipulating, and exiting the alliance when the notion suits the islamist. They may join you, take training and money, but they will never serve you. The central islamic concept of taqiyya allows just this. I am uncertain you could even call this a strategic error without first defining a Western strategy- there is none declared. By the West's own admission, repeatedly, there is no strategic policy; only local, reactionary efforts. Ostensibly, a plan called Which Path to Persia outlines a possible blueprint, but if so, the West has screwed this up as well. Herein the effort is to cripple the shia with insurgency all around it. The blowback is already legendary. http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2009/6/iran%20strategy/06_iran_strategy.pdf

Second, it may be easy for others to critique this or that, it is not easy for me. The complexities, overlapping alliances, tribal allegiances, and shifting sides make this a terribly complex mess. From the Israeli/Palestinian problem to the strongmen holding jihadists in check, from impairing Iranian hegemony, to ousting Assad without confronting Russia, from Turkish cleansing of Kurds, to Turkish help sought to help Kurds---- nothing in this region is easy to critique. But some things remain true- The West is unleashing forces for regional ends without likewise adjusting policies at home which then enable these forces to seamlessly wed the battlefield with Antwerp, London, New York, or Paris. There is no "strategy." It is not easy to critique but there are a series of valid observations and historical facts that can enlighten the morass.

I don't offer solutions because I am waiting for others to offer the solutions I think are required; its that simple, and that evasive. My comments have no less validity because some standard- "I don't offer solutions" is not being met. In a very short amount of time previously unlikely solutions will quickly appear to be the only solutions. It is not my place to offer these here. I can do nothing useful by musing here.

Edit: I watched the link; this only legitimizes training that has already been ongoing with contractors and allies. This legitimizes, retrospectively, the assinine arms transfers from Libya, to caucauses, the Turkey, to al Nursa. This policy now openly invites uniformed Special Forces and others to train an impossibly weak and unmotivated minority force (if one can be cobbled together) to tackle both Assad, while what? marginalizing or managing the combined rebel threat on the battlefield? No, this will not work. This is a quagmire. (Reminds me of the movie Wag The Dog).

Agree with a number of points you raise. As you rightly highlight issues are so complex and interwined. Very challenging to seperate the trees from the woods to put in-place co-ordinated policy objectives. Have to say I am dismayed by the number of posters who heavily critique every move by Western leaders without any reasonable alternate view or put up, in my opinion, extreme right wing 'solutions'.

On the issue of Taqiyya, surely Western policy / decision makers are professionally briefed by subject matter experts on Islamic ideology / philosophy and plan accordingly. Is not Taqiyya no different to dissimulation that Western thinking is well versed in for national security matters?

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

Read up on taqiyya. Really, it is worth reading but objective facts about it and various observations. I have seen it at work both individually, and see it at work in the behavior of nations (Observing). In its most simplistic fashion it is ok to lie, steal, cheat, injure, harm, hide, evade, murder if necessary, make friends, betray friends, enter treaties, exit treaties "when a better opportunity comes along (no more than that), and all sorts of other moral acts that the west, would find unimaginable. I choose that word carefully because the blindness of the west to this islamic authority distilled all the way down to the individual is causing the west endless danger and strife.

The highly evolved doctrine of deceit in politics and battle extends way into the diplomatic and personal space. (This single point alone should alert the reader that they are not dealing with just another religion- this is a political ideology crafted from inception on domination and submission, not the forum of competing ideas).

Such caveats as "if you think it (The act) furthers islam, than it is ok" are the only rule to guide. Therefore, any believer warrants his actions, vices, desires, and needs the extension of islam- we see this everywhere. This taqiyya is utterly not some ancient nomadic code. Are you kidding? There is not a shred of proof to that antiquated nonsense but the evidence of taqiyya is present everywhere today (Indeed, various recent court proceedings have introduced taqiyya as both defense and cautionary tale). And, if you are tired of looking, just listen to muslims! Muslims tell us this. Many muslims who hate us tell us exactly how they will deceive us and that by their declaring the method we still wont see it coming.

Taiqyya is real because the prophet had no respect for anyone, not even his beloved patron friend Abu Bakr, who's daughter he repeatedly coveted until... surprise! Al Lah told the prophet to take the 6 year old daughter as his wife! Taiqiyya? Taiqyya informs every action we have with islam at the state level for sure. If it does not, in a friend perhaps, you are an exception. (I have had muslim friends who actually have risked their lives for me- repeatedly; yet I still realize what I saw above is true).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm with permission

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/

Training allies of the West because... they say they are? We ask them to be? We tell them they are? Its utter nonsense. Taqiyya requires smarter people to deal with it then the entire western field of minds presently in power. IMO, this short video by this muslim imam best sums up the inherent dangers of this regressive ideology. Watch the Muslim and Jew story. Is this really the characteristics of something remotely ethical? This cleric does not even realize what he describes is antithetical to most of the remainder of the world- why? Because in islam, deciet for islam is a very noble thing. Much terror and horror gets swept up in this theological net. There are too numerous to count examples but some light video searching should wake up the sleeping.

Ok, so a Muslim and a Jew were neighbors . ...the joke begins. The jew had a shred of what appeared decent and human remaining in his heart but as we find out was crippled by obsession and dependence on vice/alcohol. Islam must save the jew, even if it means lying, hijacking his self identity, and betraying all social norms of honor- Islam does not have these.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&vid=e47b5fed700afc0eadda1c62af0fedba&l=1%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608012424309835022%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEMFSfiseaJY&tit=Taqiyya+-+I+swear+to+Allah%2C+Muslims+are+not+dangerous&c=20&sigr=11ae2pqdv&sigt=11le7n7th&sigi=11rgv00ur&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&ct=p&age%5B0%5D=1290939952&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViN3brtUWiYAm2olnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&tnr=21&vid=501A10A87F51AD238D6B501A10A87F51AD238D6B&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608024248344447444%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdbIrWj6gDDk&sigr=11aj546n2&tt=b&tit=Taqiyya+-+Islamic+Deception&sigt=10ri1jouv&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

[Prbkk]

The moderate Syrian opposition are something akin to dark matter. The experts seem to be convinced they do exist, but we are still yet to find them.

And that is why the Russians were right, for once, in cautioning Hilary Clinton to be careful what you wish for as she was thrashing around in an anti Assad frenzy

[Morch]

Agree with a number of points you raise. As you rightly highlight issues are so complex and interwined. Very challenging to seperate the trees from the woods to put in-place co-ordinated policy objectives. Have to say I am dismayed by the number of posters who heavily critique every move by Western leaders without any reasonable alternate view or put up, in my opinion, extreme right wing 'solutions'.

On the issue of Taqiyya, surely Western policy / decision makers are professionally briefed by subject matter experts on Islamic ideology / philosophy and plan accordingly. Is not Taqiyya no different to dissimulation that Western thinking is well versed in for national security matters?

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

Read up on taqiyya. Really, it is worth reading but objective facts about it and various observations. I have seen it at work both individually, and see it at work in the behavior of nations (Observing). In its most simplistic fashion it is ok to lie, steal, cheat, injure, harm, hide, evade, murder if necessary, make friends, betray friends, enter treaties, exit treaties "when a better opportunity comes along (no more than that), and all sorts of other moral acts that the west, would find unimaginable. I choose that word carefully because the blindness of the west to this islamic authority distilled all the way down to the individual is causing the west endless danger and strife.

The highly evolved doctrine of deceit in politics and battle extends way into the diplomatic and personal space. (This single point alone should alert the reader that they are not dealing with just another religion- this is a political ideology crafted from inception on domination and submission, not the forum of competing ideas).

Such caveats as "if you think it (The act) furthers islam, than it is ok" are the only rule to guide. Therefore, any believer warrants his actions, vices, desires, and needs the extension of islam- we see this everywhere. This taqiyya is utterly not some ancient nomadic code. Are you kidding? There is not a shred of proof to that antiquated nonsense but the evidence of taqiyya is present everywhere today (Indeed, various recent court proceedings have introduced taqiyya as both defense and cautionary tale). And, if you are tired of looking, just listen to muslims! Muslims tell us this. Many muslims who hate us tell us exactly how they will deceive us and that by their declaring the method we still wont see it coming.

Taiqyya is real because the prophet had no respect for anyone, not even his beloved patron friend Abu Bakr, who's daughter he repeatedly coveted until... surprise! Al Lah told the prophet to take the 6 year old daughter as his wife! Taiqiyya? Taiqyya informs every action we have with islam at the state level for sure. If it does not, in a friend perhaps, you are an exception. (I have had muslim friends who actually have risked their lives for me- repeatedly; yet I still realize what I saw above is true).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm with permission

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/

Training allies of the West because... they say they are? We ask them to be? We tell them they are? Its utter nonsense. Taqiyya requires smarter people to deal with it then the entire western field of minds presently in power. IMO, this short video by this muslim imam best sums up the inherent dangers of this regressive ideology. Watch the Muslim and Jew story. Is this really the characteristics of something remotely ethical? This cleric does not even realize what he describes is antithetical to most of the remainder of the world- why? Because in islam, deciet for islam is a very noble thing. Much terror and horror gets swept up in this theological net. There are too numerous to count examples but some light video searching should wake up the sleeping.

Ok, so a Muslim and a Jew were neighbors . ...the joke begins. The jew had a shred of what appeared decent and human remaining in his heart but as we find out was crippled by obsession and dependence on vice/alcohol. Islam must save the jew, even if it means lying, hijacking his self identity, and betraying all social norms of honor- Islam does not have these.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&vid=e47b5fed700afc0eadda1c62af0fedba&l=1%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608012424309835022%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEMFSfiseaJY&tit=Taqiyya+-+I+swear+to+Allah%2C+Muslims+are+not+dangerous&c=20&sigr=11ae2pqdv&sigt=11le7n7th&sigi=11rgv00ur&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&ct=p&age%5B0%5D=1290939952&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViN3brtUWiYAm2olnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&tnr=21&vid=501A10A87F51AD238D6B501A10A87F51AD238D6B&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608024248344447444%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdbIrWj6gDDk&sigr=11aj546n2&tt=b&tit=Taqiyya+-+Islamic+Deception&sigt=10ri1jouv&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

*posts removed to allow response*

Not every Muslim is devout and secretly (or openly) dedicates his whole being to furthering the cause of Islam. Some do, some do when it suits them or when it seems the thing other Muslims do. Not denying that Taqiyya is a reality, just asserting that it is not the core guiding principal of each and every Muslim. Even when it is, I think that it could be shown to be in-tune with other self--serving ideas. We could disagree on this, of course, and links supporting alternate view supplied.

It is interesting to note, by the way, that the same principals underlying Taqiyya are applied by Muslims when dealing with other Muslims (if modern day international relationship between Muslim countries is an acceptable template). By extension, these are also the hallmarks of realpolitik exhibited by other nations' conduct, albeit perhaps in a more refined manner.

My point was not that Taqiyya does not exist, or is not real (even if we differ as to the extent to which it is actively and consciously practiced by all Muslims), but that Westerners often have trouble accepting even the above "toned down" version as a reality. The full-blown description advocated in your post is simply too out of step with modern Western concepts of social behavior, and that makes it harder, if not impossible, to digest. The reference to conspiracy theory thinking was along these lines - it is not that there are no conspiracies, just that when they get too all-inclusive in their scope, people tend to disregard them as unreal. Without getting into the problematic issue of proof, one reason such notions are rejected is that they threat common held views which make the World comprehensible.

Assuming the West's leaders possessed both the inclination and the will to wholly accept the full-blown notion of Taqiyya - what then? How could anything short of extreme measures (both in and out of country) even be considered as an option? How would openly embracing such a point of view enhance the ability to counter perceived threats? IMO, the difficulties presented by openly taking this path are such, that they may overcome the benefits of a more discreet approach.

[ggold]

They are Killing each other isn't that enough! Let tham get on with it they don't need the help of the US.

[Morch]

The moderate Syrian opposition are something akin to dark matter. The experts seem to be convinced they do exist, but we are still yet to find them.

And that is why the Russians were right, for once, in cautioning Hilary Clinton to be careful what you wish for as she was thrashing around in an anti Assad frenzy

While the Russians continue to support Assad's regime....

[ggold]

Agree with a number of points you raise. As you rightly highlight issues are so complex and interwined. Very challenging to seperate the trees from the woods to put in-place co-ordinated policy objectives. Have to say I am dismayed by the number of posters who heavily critique every move by Western leaders without any reasonable alternate view or put up, in my opinion, extreme right wing 'solutions'.

On the issue of Taqiyya, surely Western policy / decision makers are professionally briefed by subject matter experts on Islamic ideology / philosophy and plan accordingly. Is not Taqiyya no different to dissimulation that Western thinking is well versed in for national security matters?

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

Read up on taqiyya. Really, it is worth reading but objective facts about it and various observations. I have seen it at work both individually, and see it at work in the behavior of nations (Observing). In its most simplistic fashion it is ok to lie, steal, cheat, injure, harm, hide, evade, murder if necessary, make friends, betray friends, enter treaties, exit treaties "when a better opportunity comes along (no more than that), and all sorts of other moral acts that the west, would find unimaginable. I choose that word carefully because the blindness of the west to this islamic authority distilled all the way down to the individual is causing the west endless danger and strife.

The highly evolved doctrine of deceit in politics and battle extends way into the diplomatic and personal space. (This single point alone should alert the reader that they are not dealing with just another religion- this is a political ideology crafted from inception on domination and submission, not the forum of competing ideas).

Such caveats as "if you think it (The act) furthers islam, than it is ok" are the only rule to guide. Therefore, any believer warrants his actions, vices, desires, and needs the extension of islam- we see this everywhere. This taqiyya is utterly not some ancient nomadic code. Are you kidding? There is not a shred of proof to that antiquated nonsense but the evidence of taqiyya is present everywhere today (Indeed, various recent court proceedings have introduced taqiyya as both defense and cautionary tale). And, if you are tired of looking, just listen to muslims! Muslims tell us this. Many muslims who hate us tell us exactly how they will deceive us and that by their declaring the method we still wont see it coming.

Taiqyya is real because the prophet had no respect for anyone, not even his beloved patron friend Abu Bakr, who's daughter he repeatedly coveted until... surprise! Al Lah told the prophet to take the 6 year old daughter as his wife! Taiqiyya? Taiqyya informs every action we have with islam at the state level for sure. If it does not, in a friend perhaps, you are an exception. (I have had muslim friends who actually have risked their lives for me- repeatedly; yet I still realize what I saw above is true).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm with permission

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/

Training allies of the West because... they say they are? We ask them to be? We tell them they are? Its utter nonsense. Taqiyya requires smarter people to deal with it then the entire western field of minds presently in power. IMO, this short video by this muslim imam best sums up the inherent dangers of this regressive ideology. Watch the Muslim and Jew story. Is this really the characteristics of something remotely ethical? This cleric does not even realize what he describes is antithetical to most of the remainder of the world- why? Because in islam, deciet for islam is a very noble thing. Much terror and horror gets swept up in this theological net. There are too numerous to count examples but some light video searching should wake up the sleeping.

Ok, so a Muslim and a Jew were neighbors . ...the joke begins. The jew had a shred of what appeared decent and human remaining in his heart but as we find out was crippled by obsession and dependence on vice/alcohol. Islam must save the jew, even if it means lying, hijacking his self identity, and betraying all social norms of honor- Islam does not have these.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&vid=e47b5fed700afc0eadda1c62af0fedba&l=1%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608012424309835022%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEMFSfiseaJY&tit=Taqiyya+-+I+swear+to+Allah%2C+Muslims+are+not+dangerous&c=20&sigr=11ae2pqdv&sigt=11le7n7th&sigi=11rgv00ur&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&ct=p&age%5B0%5D=1290939952&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViN3brtUWiYAm2olnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&tnr=21&vid=501A10A87F51AD238D6B501A10A87F51AD238D6B&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608024248344447444%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdbIrWj6gDDk&sigr=11aj546n2&tt=b&tit=Taqiyya+-+Islamic+Deception&sigt=10ri1jouv&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

*posts removed to allow response*

Not every Muslim is devout and secretly (or openly) dedicates his whole being to furthering the cause of Islam. Some do, some do when it suits them or when it seems the thing other Muslims do. Not denying that Taqiyya is a reality, just asserting that it is not the core guiding principal of each and every Muslim. Even when it is, I think that it could be shown to be in-tune with other self--serving ideas. We could disagree on this, of course, and links supporting alternate view supplied.

It is interesting to note, by the way, that the same principals underlying Taqiyya are applied by Muslims when dealing with other Muslims (if modern day international relationship between Muslim countries is an acceptable template). By extension, these are also the hallmarks of realpolitik exhibited by other nations' conduct, albeit perhaps in a more refined manner.

My point was not that Taqiyya does not exist, or is not real (even if we differ as to the extent to which it is actively and consciously practiced by all Muslims), but that Westerners often have trouble accepting even the above "toned down" version as a reality. The full-blown description advocated in your post is simply too out of step with modern Western concepts of social behavior, and that makes it harder, if not impossible, to digest. The reference to conspiracy theory thinking was along these lines - it is not that there are no conspiracies, just that when they get too all-inclusive in their scope, people tend to disregard them as unreal. Without getting into the problematic issue of proof, one reason such notions are rejected is that they threat common held views which make the World comprehensible.

Assuming the West's leaders possessed both the inclination and the will to wholly accept the full-blown notion of Taqiyya - what then? How could anything short of extreme measures (both in and out of country) even be considered as an option? How would openly embracing such a point of view enhance the ability to counter perceived threats? IMO, the difficulties presented by openly taking this path are such, that they may overcome the benefits of a more discreet approach.

As with all silent majorities, the majority of muslims are just that? It is the radical elements that are pushing, I am sure they use Taqiyya as an element to further their aims. Though when I hear Islam is a religion of peace, and then read about churches being burned and people being killed in protests over Charlie Hebdo cartoons, I wonder if Taqiyya is a way of life for all muslims.

I agree that western politicians are not prepared or able to deal with what will be a problem for them in the not to distant future. They have no comprehention of the problem and they are too blind or unwilling to see the reality that will effect them.

It is probably to late for any real measures that might reverse the situation. Which could mean there will be civil conflict, I don't see the people sitting idly by even if the politicians do! Would that force the politicians to do something about it?

[arjunadawn]

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

Read up on taqiyya. Really, it is worth reading but objective facts about it and various observations. I have seen it at work both individually, and see it at work in the behavior of nations (Observing). In its most simplistic fashion it is ok to lie, steal, cheat, injure, harm, hide, evade, murder if necessary, make friends, betray friends, enter treaties, exit treaties "when a better opportunity comes along (no more than that), and all sorts of other moral acts that the west, would find unimaginable. I choose that word carefully because the blindness of the west to this islamic authority distilled all the way down to the individual is causing the west endless danger and strife.

The highly evolved doctrine of deceit in politics and battle extends way into the diplomatic and personal space. (This single point alone should alert the reader that they are not dealing with just another religion- this is a political ideology crafted from inception on domination and submission, not the forum of competing ideas).

Such caveats as "if you think it (The act) furthers islam, than it is ok" are the only rule to guide. Therefore, any believer warrants his actions, vices, desires, and needs the extension of islam- we see this everywhere. This taqiyya is utterly not some ancient nomadic code. Are you kidding? There is not a shred of proof to that antiquated nonsense but the evidence of taqiyya is present everywhere today (Indeed, various recent court proceedings have introduced taqiyya as both defense and cautionary tale). And, if you are tired of looking, just listen to muslims! Muslims tell us this. Many muslims who hate us tell us exactly how they will deceive us and that by their declaring the method we still wont see it coming.

Taiqyya is real because the prophet had no respect for anyone, not even his beloved patron friend Abu Bakr, who's daughter he repeatedly coveted until... surprise! Al Lah told the prophet to take the 6 year old daughter as his wife! Taiqiyya? Taiqyya informs every action we have with islam at the state level for sure. If it does not, in a friend perhaps, you are an exception. (I have had muslim friends who actually have risked their lives for me- repeatedly; yet I still realize what I saw above is true).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm with permission

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/

Training allies of the West because... they say they are? We ask them to be? We tell them they are? Its utter nonsense. Taqiyya requires smarter people to deal with it then the entire western field of minds presently in power. IMO, this short video by this muslim imam best sums up the inherent dangers of this regressive ideology. Watch the Muslim and Jew story. Is this really the characteristics of something remotely ethical? This cleric does not even realize what he describes is antithetical to most of the remainder of the world- why? Because in islam, deciet for islam is a very noble thing. Much terror and horror gets swept up in this theological net. There are too numerous to count examples but some light video searching should wake up the sleeping.

Ok, so a Muslim and a Jew were neighbors . ...the joke begins. The jew had a shred of what appeared decent and human remaining in his heart but as we find out was crippled by obsession and dependence on vice/alcohol. Islam must save the jew, even if it means lying, hijacking his self identity, and betraying all social norms of honor- Islam does not have these.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&vid=e47b5fed700afc0eadda1c62af0fedba&l=1%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608012424309835022%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEMFSfiseaJY&tit=Taqiyya+-+I+swear+to+Allah%2C+Muslims+are+not+dangerous&c=20&sigr=11ae2pqdv&sigt=11le7n7th&sigi=11rgv00ur&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&ct=p&age%5B0%5D=1290939952&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViN3brtUWiYAm2olnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&tnr=21&vid=501A10A87F51AD238D6B501A10A87F51AD238D6B&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608024248344447444%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdbIrWj6gDDk&sigr=11aj546n2&tt=b&tit=Taqiyya+-+Islamic+Deception&sigt=10ri1jouv&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

*posts removed to allow response*

Not every Muslim is devout and secretly (or openly) dedicates his whole being to furthering the cause of Islam. Some do, some do when it suits them or when it seems the thing other Muslims do. Not denying that Taqiyya is a reality, just asserting that it is not the core guiding principal of each and every Muslim. Even when it is, I think that it could be shown to be in-tune with other self--serving ideas. We could disagree on this, of course, and links supporting alternate view supplied.

It is interesting to note, by the way, that the same principals underlying Taqiyya are applied by Muslims when dealing with other Muslims (if modern day international relationship between Muslim countries is an acceptable template). By extension, these are also the hallmarks of realpolitik exhibited by other nations' conduct, albeit perhaps in a more refined manner.

My point was not that Taqiyya does not exist, or is not real (even if we differ as to the extent to which it is actively and consciously practiced by all Muslims), but that Westerners often have trouble accepting even the above "toned down" version as a reality. The full-blown description advocated in your post is simply too out of step with modern Western concepts of social behavior, and that makes it harder, if not impossible, to digest. The reference to conspiracy theory thinking was along these lines - it is not that there are no conspiracies, just that when they get too all-inclusive in their scope, people tend to disregard them as unreal. Without getting into the problematic issue of proof, one reason such notions are rejected is that they threat common held views which make the World comprehensible.

Assuming the West's leaders possessed both the inclination and the will to wholly accept the full-blown notion of Taqiyya - what then? How could anything short of extreme measures (both in and out of country) even be considered as an option? How would openly embracing such a point of view enhance the ability to counter perceived threats? IMO, the difficulties presented by openly taking this path are such, that they may overcome the benefits of a more discreet approach.

Simple1 post removed to allow posting

I agree mostly with your first two of four paragraphs. However, it is to this refuge, this divine blueprint that adversaries of the west turn to facilitate their double speak, their insinuation into various aspects of western life, and in this refuge pose considerable threats. As example I note CAIR, truly a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood and indeed, banned as a terrorist group elsewhere by US allie. It is taqiyya that enables their mimicking assimilation.

No other religion has as a blueprint deceit to proselytize and conduct the affairs of civil society. This alone is deeply troubling.

I am uncertain what conspiracy theory you refer to. If i stated such or suggested such, I usually try to avoid conspiracy theories, preferring open source information. Your last paragraph actually informs why I resist offering solutions to the problems so often discussed in Thai Visa World Forum. In the absence for a deep appreciation that "realpolitik" is a operating philosophy of a religion, mind you- taqiyya- policy advisers will always be reactionary and one step behind the curve. The alternative, as you suggest, is a very stern approach which may indeed have its own unintended consequences.

I think this entire fiasco of modern islam reasserting its 1400 year jihad quest is profoundly troubling. The foundations do not exist any longer to rally a cry, establish a threat, declare an option, and take action. It is a threat very much amongst and within us. It is simply mind-numbing how this all works out well without such motivations as al-Sisi and others really acting a modern reformation.

[arjunadawn]

The moderate Syrian opposition are something akin to dark matter. The experts seem to be convinced they do exist, but we are still yet to find them.

And that is why the Russians were right, for once, in cautioning Hilary Clinton to be careful what you wish for as she was thrashing around in an anti Assad frenzy

While the Russians continue to support Assad's regime....

The west's quest to depose all those who stand in the way of jihadists wrought this debacle in Syria. Russia was right because Russia is aware the US and its proxies are employing jihad to unseat the status quo; an utterly dangerous policy. I do not like Assad but I like the results less. Whether policy intentionally enables jihadists or not really doesn't matter; in practice it does so everywhere.

[Morch]

Many Westerners have issues accepting Taqiyya as a real life thing rather than an abstract construct. As opposed to some, I do not suggest that all Muslims practice it, but surely, it is not a myth. The problems with accepting it as a real proposition is that it borders on the notions of conspiracy theory thinking. Sort of trust-no-one, believe-nothing sort of thing. Taking an extreme view would be very difficult within the context of international diplomacy.

Having informed advisers versed in things Muslim is not an issue. Which advisers get picked. which assessment make it to the leadership's attention and how they are received - a whole different ball game.

Read up on taqiyya. Really, it is worth reading but objective facts about it and various observations. I have seen it at work both individually, and see it at work in the behavior of nations (Observing). In its most simplistic fashion it is ok to lie, steal, cheat, injure, harm, hide, evade, murder if necessary, make friends, betray friends, enter treaties, exit treaties "when a better opportunity comes along (no more than that), and all sorts of other moral acts that the west, would find unimaginable. I choose that word carefully because the blindness of the west to this islamic authority distilled all the way down to the individual is causing the west endless danger and strife.

The highly evolved doctrine of deceit in politics and battle extends way into the diplomatic and personal space. (This single point alone should alert the reader that they are not dealing with just another religion- this is a political ideology crafted from inception on domination and submission, not the forum of competing ideas).

Such caveats as "if you think it (The act) furthers islam, than it is ok" are the only rule to guide. Therefore, any believer warrants his actions, vices, desires, and needs the extension of islam- we see this everywhere. This taqiyya is utterly not some ancient nomadic code. Are you kidding? There is not a shred of proof to that antiquated nonsense but the evidence of taqiyya is present everywhere today (Indeed, various recent court proceedings have introduced taqiyya as both defense and cautionary tale). And, if you are tired of looking, just listen to muslims! Muslims tell us this. Many muslims who hate us tell us exactly how they will deceive us and that by their declaring the method we still wont see it coming.

Taiqyya is real because the prophet had no respect for anyone, not even his beloved patron friend Abu Bakr, who's daughter he repeatedly coveted until... surprise! Al Lah told the prophet to take the 6 year old daughter as his wife! Taiqiyya? Taiqyya informs every action we have with islam at the state level for sure. If it does not, in a friend perhaps, you are an exception. (I have had muslim friends who actually have risked their lives for me- repeatedly; yet I still realize what I saw above is true).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm with permission

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/taqiyya-about-taqiyya/

Training allies of the West because... they say they are? We ask them to be? We tell them they are? Its utter nonsense. Taqiyya requires smarter people to deal with it then the entire western field of minds presently in power. IMO, this short video by this muslim imam best sums up the inherent dangers of this regressive ideology. Watch the Muslim and Jew story. Is this really the characteristics of something remotely ethical? This cleric does not even realize what he describes is antithetical to most of the remainder of the world- why? Because in islam, deciet for islam is a very noble thing. Much terror and horror gets swept up in this theological net. There are too numerous to count examples but some light video searching should wake up the sleeping.

Ok, so a Muslim and a Jew were neighbors . ...the joke begins. The jew had a shred of what appeared decent and human remaining in his heart but as we find out was crippled by obsession and dependence on vice/alcohol. Islam must save the jew, even if it means lying, hijacking his self identity, and betraying all social norms of honor- Islam does not have these.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&vid=e47b5fed700afc0eadda1c62af0fedba&l=1%3A40&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608012424309835022%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEMFSfiseaJY&tit=Taqiyya+-+I+swear+to+Allah%2C+Muslims+are+not+dangerous&c=20&sigr=11ae2pqdv&sigt=11le7n7th&sigi=11rgv00ur&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&ct=p&age%5B0%5D=1290939952&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViN3brtUWiYAm2olnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N25ndmVnBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?p=youtube+muslims+on+taqiyya&tnr=21&vid=501A10A87F51AD238D6B501A10A87F51AD238D6B&l=242&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608024248344447444%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdbIrWj6gDDk&sigr=11aj546n2&tt=b&tit=Taqiyya+-+Islamic+Deception&sigt=10ri1jouv&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Bmuslims%2Bon%2Btaqiyya%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=136o98763&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

*posts removed to allow response*

Not every Muslim is devout and secretly (or openly) dedicates his whole being to furthering the cause of Islam. Some do, some do when it suits them or when it seems the thing other Muslims do. Not denying that Taqiyya is a reality, just asserting that it is not the core guiding principal of each and every Muslim. Even when it is, I think that it could be shown to be in-tune with other self--serving ideas. We could disagree on this, of course, and links supporting alternate view supplied.

It is interesting to note, by the way, that the same principals underlying Taqiyya are applied by Muslims when dealing with other Muslims (if modern day international relationship between Muslim countries is an acceptable template). By extension, these are also the hallmarks of realpolitik exhibited by other nations' conduct, albeit perhaps in a more refined manner.

My point was not that Taqiyya does not exist, or is not real (even if we differ as to the extent to which it is actively and consciously practiced by all Muslims), but that Westerners often have trouble accepting even the above "toned down" version as a reality. The full-blown description advocated in your post is simply too out of step with modern Western concepts of social behavior, and that makes it harder, if not impossible, to digest. The reference to conspiracy theory thinking was along these lines - it is not that there are no conspiracies, just that when they get too all-inclusive in their scope, people tend to disregard them as unreal. Without getting into the problematic issue of proof, one reason such notions are rejected is that they threat common held views which make the World comprehensible.

Assuming the West's leaders possessed both the inclination and the will to wholly accept the full-blown notion of Taqiyya - what then? How could anything short of extreme measures (both in and out of country) even be considered as an option? How would openly embracing such a point of view enhance the ability to counter perceived threats? IMO, the difficulties presented by openly taking this path are such, that they may overcome the benefits of a more discreet approach.

Simple1 post removed to allow posting

I agree mostly with your first two of four paragraphs. However, it is to this refuge, this divine blueprint that adversaries of the west turn to facilitate their double speak, their insinuation into various aspects of western life, and in this refuge pose considerable threats. As example I note CAIR, truly a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood and indeed, banned as a terrorist group elsewhere by US allie. It is taqiyya that enables their mimicking assimilation.

No other religion has as a blueprint deceit to proselytize and conduct the affairs of civil society. This alone is deeply troubling.

I am uncertain what conspiracy theory you refer to. If i stated such or suggested such, I usually try to avoid conspiracy theories, preferring open source information. Your last paragraph actually informs why I resist offering solutions to the problems so often discussed in Thai Visa World Forum. In the absence for a deep appreciation that "realpolitik" is a operating philosophy of a religion, mind you- taqiyya- policy advisers will always be reactionary and one step behind the curve. The alternative, as you suggest, is a very stern approach which may indeed have its own unintended consequences.

I think this entire fiasco of modern islam reasserting its 1400 year jihad quest is profoundly troubling. The foundations do not exist any longer to rally a cry, establish a threat, declare an option, and take action. It is a threat very much amongst and within us. It is simply mind-numbing how this all works out well without such motivations as al-Sisi and others really acting a modern reformation.

Apologies if I was unclear.

The reference to conspiracy theory was not to imply that the view you presented is a conspiracy theory, but that it could easily be perceived as such. This, in turn, could be used to make the position easier to dismiss out of hand as "yet another one of them conspiracy theories", even though t isn't quite one. People have trouble accepting notions which say things are not the way they seem or the way they ought to be. The bigger the adjustment required, the harder the resistance.

[Credo]

It makes virtually no difference what the West does or doesn't do, we will be blamed for it. When we do nothing, we allow radicalism to spread; when we do something we are accused of causing people to be radicalized.

Extremism and Jihad are their default positions. It is how they respond to everything and to nothing.

[Morch]

The moderate Syrian opposition are something akin to dark matter. The experts seem to be convinced they do exist, but we are still yet to find them.

And that is why the Russians were right, for once, in cautioning Hilary Clinton to be careful what you wish for as she was thrashing around in an anti Assad frenzy

While the Russians continue to support Assad's regime....

The west's quest to depose all those who stand in the way of jihadists wrought this debacle in Syria. Russia was right because Russia is aware the US and its proxies are employing jihad to unseat the status quo; an utterly dangerous policy. I do not like Assad but I like the results less. Whether policy intentionally enables jihadists or not really doesn't matter; in practice it does so everywhere.

We'll have to remain disagreed on the West's grand policy regarding this.

As for the Russians, they are mostly interested in keeping their last remaining foothold in the region, and prop up a long term customer. If they could have cut a sound deal with whomever, they would toss Assad Junior aside. If they had no interests and assets in Syria, they might have actually support the USA blundering again. Wonder how the Ukraine thing would have gone if the USA & Co. were bogged in Syria.

[arjunadawn]

And that is why the Russians were right, for once, in cautioning Hilary Clinton to be careful what you wish for as she was thrashing around in an anti Assad frenzy

While the Russians continue to support Assad's regime....

The west's quest to depose all those who stand in the way of jihadists wrought this debacle in Syria. Russia was right because Russia is aware the US and its proxies are employing jihad to unseat the status quo; an utterly dangerous policy. I do not like Assad but I like the results less. Whether policy intentionally enables jihadists or not really doesn't matter; in practice it does so everywhere.

We'll have to remain disagreed on the West's grand policy regarding this.

As for the Russians, they are mostly interested in keeping their last remaining foothold in the region, and prop up a long term customer. If they could have cut a sound deal with whomever, they would toss Assad Junior aside. If they had no interests and assets in Syria, they might have actually support the USA blundering again. Wonder how the Ukraine thing would have gone if the USA & Co. were bogged in Syria.

There is no policy from the USA. This is evident in the consistent demands of congress to provide a policy; it is evident from the increasingly disgruntled high military men stating there is no policy, and it is evident in the sterilization of the lexicon that best describe the threat. By omission of commission, the jihadists are aided and abetted. It is really not a stretch at all. Just look to the suppression of the bergdhel report following the release of the Afghanistan battlefield commanders during a time of war. There is no policy unless one concludes the absence of a policy is indeed the policy.

[Yahooka]

"Moderate syrian opposition" ?? Most of this opposition is unfortunately abroad.We better start to support President Assad.

[simple1]

"Moderate syrian opposition" ?? Most of this opposition is unfortunately abroad.We better start to support President Assad.

There are many who accuse Assad of policies that in affect provide a continuum for the Islamic extremists in Syria, not the least his regime buying oil from ISIS and other extremist groups.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10585391/Syrias-Assad-accused-of-boosting-al-Qaeda-with-secret-oil-deals.html

Another example...“Assad and Isil are symbiotic,” added Kerry. “Isil presents itself as the only alternative to Assad. Assad purports to be the last line of defence against Isil. Both are stronger as a result.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/john-kerry-isis-bashar-assad-symbiotic

And...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/18/is-al-qaeda-aiding-bashar-al-assad.html

[Morch]

The west's quest to depose all those who stand in the way of jihadists wrought this debacle in Syria. Russia was right because Russia is aware the US and its proxies are employing jihad to unseat the status quo; an utterly dangerous policy. I do not like Assad but I like the results less. Whether policy intentionally enables jihadists or not really doesn't matter; in practice it does so everywhere.

We'll have to remain disagreed on the West's grand policy regarding this.

As for the Russians, they are mostly interested in keeping their last remaining foothold in the region, and prop up a long term customer. If they could have cut a sound deal with whomever, they would toss Assad Junior aside. If they had no interests and assets in Syria, they might have actually support the USA blundering again. Wonder how the Ukraine thing would have gone if the USA & Co. were bogged in Syria.

There is no policy from the USA. This is evident in the consistent demands of congress to provide a policy; it is evident from the increasingly disgruntled high military men stating there is no policy, and it is evident in the sterilization of the lexicon that best describe the threat. By omission of commission, the jihadists are aided and abetted. It is really not a stretch at all. Just look to the suppression of the bergdhel report following the release of the Afghanistan battlefield commanders during a time of war. There is no policy unless one concludes the absence of a policy is indeed the policy.

Well, then to put it more accurately. perhaps - we will have to remain disagreed on the underlying reasons for this apparent lack of policy.