10 arrests in Paris, bomb threat closes train station

[Ulysses G.]

I replied regarding CAIR in another post but thought it as well to add that Manuel Vallis, the French interior minister observed that the word Islamophobia was being systematically used by those wishing to avoid legitimate discussion of Islam. I guess everyone knows this, but I would merely point out that your habitual use, or should I say misuse of the word does no good for your credibility.

Misuse indeed.

[Morch]

It not surprising that when the resident Islamaphobes wander off topic that is fine, but when I do in order to answer a question I am accused of twisting and changing the subject!

It is all they can do when presented with facts event their prejudice cannot refute.

As for Steely Dan's poster; Does CAIR tell Muslims not to talk to the FBI?

In 2011, there was a huge uproar about a poster that had been placed on a local CAIR chapter website in California. The poster said “Build a wall of resistance. Don’t talk to the FBI”. As soon as CAIR National found out about this, they asked them to remove the poster from their website......

CAIR also issued a public response:

A 30-year old image that is inconsistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally-informed cooperation with law enforcement agencies was placed on the local events page of a CAIR chapter web site. Once it was brought to our attention it was removed. The image was not designed by CAIR and the event it promotes was not organized by CAIR.

As you will see from reading the whole article, the controversial poster wasn't even designed for an Islamic event!

The poster has a long history; originally being designed in support of a Puerto Rican movement being harassed by the FBI.

Last time I checked, Puerto Rica was not a Muslim!

Before anyone says "Well, they would say that; they're Muslims!" have a look at the many non Muslim sources and articles they quote and link to.

I didn't use that article because it is on a Muslim website, I used it as it contains all the information in one place.

I replied regarding CAIR in another post but thought it as well to add that Manuel Vallis, the French interior minister observed that the word Islamophobia was being systematically used by those wishing to avoid legitimate discussion of Islam. I guess everyone knows this, but I would merely point out that your habitual use, or should I say misuse of the word does no good for your credibility.

That might as well be applied to "apologist", "enabler", "antisemitic" and a whole lot of other ways posters tag others. Not that these things are not in evidence, but tossing them all over the place does not make arguments stronger nor contribute much to discussions.

[7by7]

I replied regarding CAIR in another post but thought it as well to add that Manuel Vallis, the French interior minister observed that the word Islamophobia was being systematically used by those wishing to avoid legitimate discussion of Islam. I guess everyone knows this, but I would merely point out that your habitual use, or should I say misuse of the word does no good for your credibility.

Misuse indeed.

Do you have the same opinion of the many times the word 'Judeophobia' has been used by some posters whenever someone criticises the Israeli government or IDF?

As shown many times, Islamaphobia is a legitimate word; look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me.

That some people may 'misuse' the word does not change it's legitimacy.

The same, of course, applies to Judeophobia.

[Ulysses G.]

No I don't. I am pretty sure that Jingthing is the only person to ever use the word 'Judeophobia' and he has no problem with criticizing the Israeli government or IDF, when it is warranted. There has been plenty of anti-Semitic rhetoric on the forum and Jingthing has been pretty spot on about pointing it out, while not indulging in the same type of hate speech himself. .

Edited January 21, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Back to the poster for a moment.

Those who actually read the article I linked to and follow the links to their sources will find this piece from Davi Barker in the Examiner (which the article I linked to quotes from and links to).

I happen to know a little something about this poster because I received the first email blast that went out in mid January. Just one problem... it didn’t come from CAIR. It came the Arab Resource & Organizing Center. Their website describes them as a “grassroots organization” devoted to opposing, among other things, “religious discrimination,” “economic exploitation” and “homophobia.” Other events advertised in the e-mail were “Anarchists Against the Wall,” a video presentation by Israeli anarchists, “US Tour Of Queer Palestinian Activists,” featuring two members of Al-Qaws, an advocacy organization for LGBT rights in Palestinian society, and “Never Again for Anyone,” with Holocaust survivor

Of course, if you read people like Pamela Gellar you will find that they hate Mr. Barker for his views.

But as her, and similar sites, regularly make ridiculous, unfounded claims like the one that a driver in Manchester recently charged with causing death by dangerous driving must be a jihadist because he has a Muslim sounding name (conveniently not mentioning that three other drivers were also arrested following the incident; although not yet charged), how can anyone take them seriously?

Edited January 21, 2015 by Scott

[Ulysses G.]

Back to the poster for a moment.

Reading the back story on CAIR, their support for Islamic terrorism and the incident with the poster is quite illuminating.

CAIR's Deceptive Spin on FBI Support

While he acknowledged it should not have been posted, Hooper "refused to renounce the artwork," instead blaming "a cottage industry of Muslim bashers" for the poster controversy.

Even if their cited reasons for removing the poster were genuine, generalizations by Saylor and Hooper about a healthy relationship between CAIR and law enforcement are less than accurate.

CAIR has a long track record of criticizing terrorism financing and support cases brought by the US government. Its officials called the conviction of the Holy Land Foundation for funneling money to Hamas "based on fear-mongering," despite the evidence.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/2515/cair-deceptive-spin-on-fbi-support#

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed along with a post in violation of Fair Use Policy.

[7by7]

Interesting, Ulysses G, that you used a website often criticised for its anti Islamic bias and unreliability to 'prove' the bias and unreliability of my source!

Although I accept that CAIR do support organisations such as Hamas and so may be viewed with some suspicion

But the facts remain:

• The poster was removed by the CAIR national organisation from their local chapter's website as soon as it was brought to their attention.
• The event was not promoted nor organised by CAIR but by the Arab Resource and Organising Center.
• Events organised by the Arab Resource & Organizing Center are supported and attended by people of all faiths; the one thing they had in common being their, for the US, left wing politics.
• They have organised events such as “Anarchists Against the Wall,” a video presentation by Israeli anarchists, “US Tour Of Queer Palestinian Activists,” featuring two members of Al-Qaws, an advocacy organization for LGBT rights in Palestinian society, and “Never Again for Anyone,” with Holocaust survivor Dr. Hajo Meyer sharing his experiences in Auschwitz . Are these promoting extreme Islamic jihadism? Do they sound like the sort of events extreme Islamic jihadists would ever organise?
• The keynote speaker at the actual event the poster was used to promote does have an Arabic name; but he is a peace activist, not a radical Islamic jihadist.

[Steely Dan]

Interesting, Ulysses G, that you used a website often criticised for its anti Islamic bias and unreliability to 'prove' the bias and unreliability of my source!

Although I accept that CAIR do support organisations such as Hamas and so may be viewed with some suspicion

But the facts remain:

• The poster was removed by the CAIR national organisation from their local chapter's website as soon as it was brought to their attention.
• The event was not promoted nor organised by CAIR but by the Arab Resource and Organising Center.
• Events organised by the Arab Resource & Organizing Center are supported and attended by people of all faiths; the one thing they had in common being their, for the US, left wing politics.
• They have organised events such as “Anarchists Against the Wall,” a video presentation by Israeli anarchists, “US Tour Of Queer Palestinian Activists,” featuring two members of Al-Qaws, an advocacy organization for LGBT rights in Palestinian society, and “Never Again for Anyone,” with Holocaust survivor Dr. Hajo Meyer sharing his experiences in Auschwitz . Are these promoting extreme Islamic jihadism? Do they sound like the sort of events extreme Islamic jihadists would ever organise?
• The keynote speaker at the actual event the poster was used to promote does have an Arabic name; but he is a peace activist, not a radical Islamic jihadist.

As per usual you are sending the topic into ever decreasing circles, one might be tempted to conclude this was for the sole purpose of obfuscation. As a reminder, this entire exchange is concerned with the likelihood of Muslim populations aiding police investigations. The CAIR poster is a side branch within that and whatever the case may be with that CAIR are, by your own admission linked with Hamas. An internal CAIR document was leaked talking about 'sabotaging the wests miserable house from within' is that consistent with cooperation with the police.

As for the UK example, you may well choose not to go down that line because a Telegraph article mentioned half of UK mosques are run by extreme sects of Islam, which makes the indignation at mosques being asked to cooperate with the authorities all the more transparent.

[7by7]

It was you, Steely Dan, who brought up this poster; not I!

It is not a CAIR poster.

It was not used to promote a CAIR event.

I notice that you have ignored the actual organisers of that event; no doubt because not even you can accuse supporters of LGBT rights and campaigners for same in countries like Palestine, hosts to a holocaust survivor etc. of being radical Islamist terrorists!

I have previously said that I will be happy to discuss Pickles' letter and the response to it in the appropriate topic.

Any attempt by me to do so here will no doubt be cause of you and your mates resorting to your usual tactic when presented with facts you don't like but can't refute: accusations of obfuscation, twisting facts (you are a master of that!) going round in circles etc. Even the oft repeated calumny that I support, or at least apologise for, terrorists.

I note that you have yet to take up that invitation; will you now do so?

Edited January 22, 2015 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

It is not a CAIR poster.

The anti-FBI poster was advertising an Islamic event , was only taken down from CAIR'S website AFTER they were confronted about it by the media and CAIR refused to renounce the artwork. That pretty much says it all.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/2515/cair-deceptive-spin-on-fbi-support#

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

How many more times!

The 30 year old poster, originally designed and used by Puerto Ricans, was used on this occasion to promote an Arab Resource and Organising Center event, without their knowledge.

It was used by the local chapter of CAIR on their website, not the national one, and the national organisation made them remove it as soon as it was brought to their attention.

Stephen Emerson is the founder and executive director of your source; The Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Is this the same Stephen Emerson who claimed the 1995 Oklahoma bombing was the work of Muslim terrorists (it wasn't)?

Yes, it is.

Is this the same Stephen Emerson who was investigated by the IRS for funnelling profits from his for profit company through the supposedly non profit charity IPT?

Yes, it is; though he somehow got off that one.

Is this the same Stephen Emerson who recently made a laughing stock of himself by stating that Birmingham was 100% Muslim and a no go area for non Muslims?

Yes, it is.

Is this Stephen Emerson a reliable source?

No, he is not.

[Ulysses G.]

The 30 year old poster, originally designed and used by Puerto Ricans, was used on this occasion to promote an Arab Resource and Organising Center event, without their knowledge.

Who cares who designed it originally? No matter how you try to spin it, the anti-FBI poster - "Build a wall of resistance. Don't talk to the FBI" - was only taken down from CAIR'S website AFTER they were confronted about it by the media and CAIR refused to renounce the anti-FBI artwork. Those are the facts.

CAIR has a long track record of criticizing terrorism financing and support cases brought by the US government. Its officials called the conviction of the Holy Land Foundation for funneling money to Hamas "based on fear-mongering," despite the evidence.

http://www.investiga...on-fbi-support#

Edited January 24, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Do you know what's good about banging one's head against a brick wall?

The feeling when one stops; so last word on this from me:-

Ulysses G; it is obvious that you prefer the word of a man who has previously proven that his prejudice leads him to make ridiculously false statements to that of

• a man who was actually at the event in question,
• the organisers of that event and
• the CAIR national organisation.

You claim, in big bold letters, as if that added validity, that CAIR have refuse to renounce the poster.

Wrong; as I posted before

The following statement was issued over CAIR’s national e-distribution list on January 14, 2011, shortly after the poster was brought to the attention of national staff:

CLARIFICATION: A 30-year old image that is inconsistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally-informed cooperation with law enforcement agencies was placed on the local events page of a CAIR chapter web site. Once it was brought to our attention it was removed. The image was not designed by CAIR and the event it promotes was not organized by CAIR.

Additionally, CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor appeared on Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor to reaffirm CAIR’s policy.

[Ulysses G.]

Do you ever stop the deceptive spin? From Fox News about CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor's appearance on the show:

Hooper conceded the poster “crosses the line” but refused to renounce the artwork and blamed critics for fomenting what he called a manufactured controversy.

http://radio.foxnews.com/2011/01/13/muslim-event-dont-talk-to-the-fbi/

[7by7]

OK, since you asked, I will reply.

CAIR described the poster as

A 30-year old image that is inconsistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally-informed cooperation with law enforcement agencies

If that is not renouncing the poster; what is it?

As for your quote above; yet again you have proven you are the master of quoting out of context! Read what else he said.

Including his conclusion

As for the content of the conference, Hooper said if anything negative is said about the FBI, it won’t come from their group.

“We have a consistent policy of positive and constructive engagement with law enforcement officials,” he said.

You really are getting desperate; I'll let you keep on digging the hole you are in deeper and deeper.

[Ulysses G.]

You mean I forgot to include Hooper's lie about "positive engagement with law enforcement" after conceding the poster “crosses the line” and refusing to renounce the anti-FBI artwork? YOU are the desperate one.

CAIR has a long track record of criticizing terrorism financing and support cases brought by the US government. Its officials called the conviction of the Holy Land Foundation for funneling money to Hamas "based on fear-mongering," despite the evidence.
http://www.investiga...on-fbi-support#

[Steely Dan]

You mean I forgot to include Hooper's lie about "positive engagement with law enforcement" after conceding the poster “crosses the line” and refusing to renounce the anti-FBI artwork? YOU are the desperate one.

CAIR has a long track record of criticizing terrorism financing and support cases brought by the US government. Its officials called the conviction of the Holy Land Foundation for funneling money to Hamas "based on fear-mongering," despite the evidence.

http://www.investiga...on-fbi-support#

The Muslim brotherhood spawned CAIR, MAS and sundry western mouthpieces for Islam purporting to be moderates, they are also the root of just about all radical Islamist terror groups. And yet we are debating a minute detail concerning one Taqiyya distribution center. Even, for the sake of argument, if the poster was nothing to do with CAIR HQ there are sundry other examples to choose demonstrating exactly what is representative of their behavior. I note still no reply on the indignation of UK mosques being asked to inform on extremists, which is because 50% of them are infact extremist.

The Emperor has no clothes, everyone can see that, people at the back are pissing themselves laughing, yet in our case the Emperor expects a write up in vogue from cowed and clueless buffoons in the MSM, until even they can no longer carry water so all debate will be closed down.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Ulysses G.]

The Muslim brotherhood spawned CAIR, MAS and sundry western mouthpieces for Islam purporting to be moderates, they are also the root of just about all radical Islamist terror groups. And yet we are debating a minute detail concerning one Taqiyya distribution center.

Exactly and typical of 7by7's relentless attempts to distort and distract from every issue concerning radical Islam.

[7by7]

I note still no reply on the indignation of UK mosques being asked to inform on extremists

Every time you bring that up I have said that as I do not wish to drag this topic further off topic that I wont discuss it here; but will be happy to do so in the relevant topic.

You have yet to take up that invitation.

You and your mates are very good at throwing accusations about based on ill informed, prejudiced commentators like Emerson and Gellar, convicted violent thugs like Yaxely-Lennon and the moronic websites who make claims like that saying the recent fatal road collision in Manchester was a jihadist attack because one of the four drivers arrested has a Muslim sounding name!

Like your sources, though, when it comes to looking at the facts in detail you either wont or you try to show the facts prove you're right by your usual cherry picking, quoting out of context and similar tactics.

The twisting and turning you lot have done over this poster is a prime example of that.

This is obviously because 9 times out of 10 those facts show your sources to be the load of old pony they are.

End of, as far as I'm concerned.

If Steely Dan, or anyone else, wishes to discuss the reaction to Pickles' letter in the appropriate topic, I'll see them there.

[Ulysses G.]

Additionally, CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor appeared on Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor to reaffirm CAIR’s policy.

Twisting and turning? Actually Fox News was YOUR source and they dispute your claim that CAIR renounced the artwork that was displayed on the CAIR website until they were confronted by the media.

From Fox News about CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor's appearance on the show:

Hooper conceded the poster “crosses the line” but refused to renounce the artwork and blamed critics for fomenting what he called a manufactured controversy.

http://radio.foxnews...alk-to-the-fbi/

Edited January 25, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

I have already responded to this; but you have ignored it and produced, yet again, a cherry picked, out of context quote!

OK, since you asked, I will reply.

CAIR described the poster as

A 30-year old image that is inconsistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally-informed cooperation with law enforcement agencies

If that is not renouncing the poster; what is it?

As for your quote above; yet again you have proven you are the master of quoting out of context! Read what else he said.

Including his conclusion

As for the content of the conference, Hooper said if anything negative is said about the FBI, it won’t come from their group.

“We have a consistent policy of positive and constructive engagement with law enforcement officials,” he said.

You really are getting desperate; I'll let you keep on digging the hole you are in deeper and deeper.

[Ulysses G.]

It is not out of context and you were the one who falsely claimed that CAIR renounced the anti-FBI artwork on Fox News. They DIDN'T. IN fact, they REFUSED to.


From Fox News about CAIR Legislative Director Corey Saylor's appearance on the show:

Hooper conceded the poster “crosses the line” but refused to renounce the artwork and blamed critics for fomenting what he called a manufactured controversy.

http://radio.foxnews...alk-to-the-fbi/

Edited January 25, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

I did not claim CAIR renounced the poster on Fox.

I said, correctly, that Hooper appeared on Fox to explain the CAIR position; which he did and from which you have quoted out of context.

Earlier CAIR issued a statement, from which I also quoted, renouncing the poster as "A 30-year old image that is inconsistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally-informed cooperation with law enforcement agencies."

Your desperation is getting pathetic; I wont be responding to it further.

[Ulysses G.]

If that is not renouncing the poster; what is it?

What is that other than you implying that CAIR renounced the poster?

So they DID NOT renounce the anti-FBI artwork - as I have said all along. It is about time that you admitted it.

[7by7]

I know I said I would not respond again; but I have to ask; what anti FBI network are you on about?

It's not CAIR.

It's not the actual organisers of the conference in question.

So who do you think it is?

Why should CAIR renounce a network which has nothing to do with them; especially when they have already made it clear that they have a policy of cooperation with the law enforcement authorities and the poster was inconsistent with that policy?

Edited January 25, 2015 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

I know I said I would not respond again

Don't worry. You say this constantly and then continue spinning. You don't seem to be able to help yourself.

The anti-FBI poster was advertising an Islamic event, was only taken down from CAIR'S website AFTER they were confronted about it by the media and CAIR refused to renounce the artwork. They should have renounced it because it was on THEIR website and their claim of policy of "cooperation with law enforcement" was nonsense.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

If you don't want me to post; stop asking me direct questions!

Once more:-

1) The poster appeared on a local CAIR chapter's website.

The national organisation made them remove it as soon as it was brought to their attention.

2) As shown, the national organisation have renounced it as inconsistent with their policies. That you don't understand the plain English in their statement is your problem, not theirs.

3) As shown, the event was not organised by CAIR, though representatives from them did attend.

4) As shown, the event was not an Islamic one; it was a civil liberties one.

5) As shown, even though one of the speakers at the event does have an Arabic name, he is a civil liberties campaigner, not a radical Islamic jihadist.

6) As shown, the organisers of the event were the Arab Resource & Organizing Center.

They have also organised events such as “Anarchists Against the Wall,” a video presentation by Israeli anarchists, “US Tour Of Queer Palestinian Activists,” featuring two members of Al-Qaws, an advocacy organization for LGBT rights in Palestinian society, and “Never Again for Anyone,” with a Holocaust survivor.

So even you will have trouble branding them as radical Islamic jihadists!

[Ulysses G.]

You said that you were not going to post. Not me, but you have proven yet again that honesty is not your strong suit.

The poster on CAIRs website promoted a conference that encouraged people not to talk to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The poster ITSELF, displayed on the CAIR website, ALSO encouraged people not to talk to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They did not need to even visit the conference for this bit of propaganda,

The anti-FBI poster was advertising an Islamic event and was only taken down from CAIR'S website AFTER they were confronted about it by the media. CAIR refused to renounce the artwork.

The event was organized by a Palestinian activist whose two brothers-in-laws were Islamic terrorists. He has been under criminal investigation at least twice since 2010, when FBI agents raided his home as part of an investigation into terror-related financing.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Hatem Abudayyeh, a speaker at, not organiser of, at the event has had his home raided by the FBI and has been subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury due to his anti war activities.

This was part of an investigation into such activities, and others, many of whom are not Muslim, were also investigated.

No charges have ever been brought.

Source.

He is, of course, not responsible for whatever activities his brothers in law may get up to.