West speeding towards point of no return with Russia: Opinion

[F430murci]

Nobody produced any proof in the form of satellite images, videos, nothing!

Only American propaganda, blah blah blah...

.........

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

Oh, really? It must be a very hot news I missed somehow...

Was it reported on the news?

Lol, your just a hot head that might actually learn something if you spent more time listening and less time being pissy.

Yep, its in the news.

[Barin]

Would you please mention the source of this news.

[theslime]

Nobody produced any proof in the form of satellite images, videos, nothing!

Only American propaganda, blah blah blah...

.........

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

Oh, really? It must be a very hot news I missed somehow...

Was it reported on the news?

Lol, your just a hot head that might actually learn something if you spent more time listening and less time being pissy.

Yep, its in the news.

No its not, the ukraine and US officials haven,t confirmed it. try Google.

[Barin]

...

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

This is a myth fabricated by Doug Schoen, a well known Spin Doctor.

How can we trust his words? He did not provide any evidence neither he provided the source of this information.

This is nothing but lies.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Barin

[car720]

Nobody produced any proof in the form of satellite images, videos, nothing!

Only American propaganda, blah blah blah...

Lol, satellite images? Do real Russian soldiers have "I am a real Russian" written in red on the tops of their helmets capable of being read by satellite . . . Why do you expect CIA to share top secret satellite images with you? I am not sure they really care what people like you believe. Even if they showed satellite images, you would still say it proves nothing. Too funny.

I have many Ukrainanian friends whose families back home are all saying "We fukkked, Russians are here."

Certain Tanks, GRAD multiple rocket systems, BUK and SMERCH systems, radio electronic intelligence systems are not sold at local Donetsk street markets. Only the Russian army and Defense Ministry have them

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

Just one exception.

I think you will find that CNN or one of those probably has more satellite than they do (CIA and FSB).

If they don't then google sure as hell does.

[mania]

How much do you know about the US? Hawaii was not part of the US. I don't know if the people had guns. The US had military installations there which was a strategy to defend westward.

Hawaii didn't become part of the US until August of 1959 by obtaining statehood. It became the latest and the 50th state of the US. Alaska was #49, obtaining statehood a few months earlier in January of 1959.

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor they weren't attacking the US. They were attacking US military installations on foreign soil.

Geez 2nd time in 2 days you approach one of my posts with disregard for

the context in which it was meant .......

Did I say Hawaii was attacked or Pearl Harbor?

Was Pearl Harbor a US military installation?

After all when was the last time the US proper was ever invaded?

That would be never right?

Which is the point I was trying to make to the poster I was replying to

who said....

"The US has defended itself several times from invasion."

So yes Hawaii was not yet a State...Proper.....

I was throwing the post I was replying to a bone

But do YOU know When Hawaii was overthrown by the US? When they became a formal U.S. territory??....Yeah didn't think so

Edited January 24, 2015 by mania

[F430murci]

...

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

This is a myth fabricated by Doug Schoen, a well known Spin Doctor.

How can we trust his words? He did not provide any evidence neither he provided the source of this information.

This is nothing but lies.

You are too funny. Call him a spin doctor just because he writes something you don't want to hear. It is quiet possibly he has better and more informed sources than you.

I am not taking sides in this conflict. My wife is Russian and most of our friends seem to Ukraine and Russian these days. They all say Russia is there and are not buying the Putin spin.

Our little hottie 26 year old friend from Ukraine was just saying tonight that her 50 year old parents back home were saying they were going to join the army to fight the "Russians" and become hereos. They there.

[F430murci]

Nobody produced any proof in the form of satellite images, videos, nothing!

Only American propaganda, blah blah blah...

Lol, satellite images? Do real Russian soldiers have "I am a real Russian" written in red on the tops of their helmets capable of being read by satellite . . . Why do you expect CIA to share top secret satellite images with you? I am not sure they really care what people like you believe. Even if they showed satellite images, you would still say it proves nothing. Too funny.

I have many Ukrainanian friends whose families back home are all saying "We fukkked, Russians are here."

Certain Tanks, GRAD multiple rocket systems, BUK and SMERCH systems, radio electronic intelligence systems are not sold at local Donetsk street markets. Only the Russian army and Defense Ministry have them

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

Just one exception.

I think you will find that CNN or one of those probably has more satellite than they do (CIA and FSB).

If they don't then google sure as hell does.

Lol .. . All of those high resolution CNN spy satellites. I bet they read the soldiers name off their uniforms.

Edited January 24, 2015 by F430murci

[Barin]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

...
Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

This is a myth fabricated by Doug Schoen, a well known Spin Doctor.

How can we trust his words? He did not provide any evidence neither he provided the source of this information.

This is nothing but lies.

You are too funny. Call him a spin doctor just because he writes something you don't want to hear. It is quiet possibly he has better and more informed sources than you.

I am not taking sides in this conflict. My wife is Russian and most of our friends seem to Ukraine and Russian these days. They all say Russia is there and are not buying the Putin spin.

Our little hottie 26 year old friend from Ukraine was just saying tonight that her 50 year old parents back home were saying they were going to join the army to fight the "Russians" and become hereos. They there.

Nobody has seen a single Russian Army soldier in Donetsk or Lugansk area. This is a pure Ukrainian propaganda. We have heard so much lies from the Ukraine already. We can not trust them. Your wife's friends probably watch only the official Ukrainian TV and fall the victims of official Ukrainian mass media propaganda.

So far nobody was able to provide any real proof of the fact that the Russian Army is sending its soldiers to Donetsk and Lugansk to fight the Ukrainian Army.

Equipment and arms is another story.

Like America has been supplying arms and ammunition to rebels in many countries on the other side of the Globe.

But Ukraine is near Russia. And it wants to become a NATO member. A real threat to Russia.

[F430murci]

NATO released satellite images on Thursday of what it said were Russian artillery, vehicles and troops in and around eastern Ukraine, just as Ukrainian officials said Russian troops in armored vehicles captured the Ukrainian town of Novoazovsk, along its southeastern coastline.

The satellite photos appear to show Russian vehicles and troops in numerous locations. NATO officials said that the first image below shows a convoy with self-propelled artillery in the area of Krasnodon, Ukraine, inside territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists on Aug. 21. The Ukrainian military has not moved this far inside separatist-controlled territory, so NATO officials said they are confident the equipment is Russian:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/28/nato-these-new-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-in-and-around-ukraine/

[Barin]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Nobody produced any proof in the form of satellite images, videos, nothing!

Only American propaganda, blah blah blah...

Lol, satellite images? Do real Russian soldiers have "I am a real Russian" written in red on the tops of their helmets capable of being read by satellite . . . Why do you expect CIA to share top secret satellite images with you? I am not sure they really care what people like you believe. Even if they showed satellite images, you would still say it proves nothing. Too funny.

I have many Ukrainanian friends whose families back home are all saying "We fukkked, Russians are here."

Certain Tanks, GRAD multiple rocket systems, BUK and SMERCH systems, radio electronic intelligence systems are not sold at local Donetsk street markets. Only the Russian army and Defense Ministry have them

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

Just one exception.
I think you will find that CNN or one of those probably has more satellite than they do (CIA and FSB).
If they don't then google sure as hell does.

Lol .. . All of those high resolution CNN spy satellites. I bet they read the soldiers name off their uniforms.

But they are failing to provide any satellite images to prove the fact that any of the Russian troops have crossed the border and invaded Ukraine. Only blah blah blah...

[Ulysses G.]

...

Russia recently moved two battalions of regular troops across the border, with three more battalions of motorized infantry and an artillery division on the way.

This is a myth fabricated by Doug Schoen, a well known Spin Doctor.

He is not a "well known spin doctor". He is someone that you do not like, for your own reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Schoen

[umbanda]

This has been a major worry of mine for a long time now and I can see the EU and US are itching for a war with Russia so they can get their world domination.

China and Russia and probably the BRICS nations along with most of the middle east will be a formidable coalition.

I can see Europe being wiped out by the Russians, and the US will likely back down.

I want the UK out of the EU.... we have fought enough of "other peoples battles". Time to look after ourselves.

The US will NOT win a world war........ They are deluded.

That's is the problem...The US will win a World War..is acting now. In more 5 years not only Russia and China will be strong enough to win a global war, most US enemies will be more powerful, including Muslim countries....Obama is just setting the stage for the next US President to declare war, even knowing that will be nuclear and devastating.. I hope Thailand and most Asean countries will keep neutral, but Phili, Japan and Australia are already getting "reinforced" by the US. Sad like is..war is coming again..and BIG.

Edited January 24, 2015 by umbanda

[marcusd]

There will be no major war just conflicts controlled to control the majority of people

[Gonki]

It is my opinion that the Westerners have been asking, no: begging, for a war with Russia for ages. It is through their contempt and humiliation of Russian nationals. One can not simply say "beat you Russian" to a man's face without expecting a war. As much as I hate Putin as the president it looks to me that he is doing something right in firing up this mud pit of hell called Donbass.

I hope that it will not be long, rather months than years, for NATO forces to get involved. Russia has problems too. Specifically violent idiots ready to fill the rebel ranks. Have you read any accounts of what their so called army and its methods are like? Some of them wear real uniforms and this helps fan the illusions that the reg Russian army is involved. It further serves the purpose of sucking the NATO in ASAP.

I don't think the conflict will spill over to Russian territory. But if it does all ya all are free to think that Russia is not prepared hardware-wise. No one knows, really. Many of those hi tech toys that the Russian mil has have never been battle tested. Russians design one effective weapon and mass produce it in infinite quantities while NATO presents an assortment like wartime is same as shopping in a supermarket.

Good luck pounding the dirt, my Western comrades!

[Publicus]

Just the military analysis of the fighting in the Donbas throughout all of 2014 produces the decisive conclusion that regular Russian military forces are operating there. I'm obviously not an analyst at Nato but I know what I see happening in the Donbas and it isn't some ad hoc gang of rebels that are operating there. If I know this, then how much more have the military analysts at Nato and in the Pentagon concluded about it ....

For instance, the so-called rebels who favor Russia have main battle tanks, heavy and super heavy artillery, sophisticated weapons systems such as missiles which are surface to air missiles and surface point to point missiles. These ostensible rebel forces move in both large and small units and they move with order, formation, discipline, purpose,...a definable regular military order and discipline..

They seize and occupy whole and entire cities and swathes of land area, they have a consistent, organized and steady supply stream, they are highly trained, they have skilled and competent leadership. Neither are these rebels al Qaeda taking over a village in Somalia. The rebels are fighting the regular and standing Army of the Ukraine with its own heavy weapons of main battle tanks and other tanks, artillery, missiles, divisions of troops commanded and led by trained and skilled officers, to include of course air and naval forces.

It takes more than a gang of rebels with a cause to hold its own or do better against a standing armed force of a nation state in Europe. The forces engaged in the conflict in and around Donbas are in fact the armed forces of two nation states and everyone knows they are Russia and Ukraine.

[Pakboong]

If the press could prove Russian involvement, they would not have to use terms like "Russian backed Separatist".I checked out all of the photos from the radio free Europe sites as well as Reuters and Tass and plenty of pictures. Obviously, no Russian uniforms. If the Russians are there, they are not stupid enough to wear Russian uniforms and carry a Russian flag. I did see a couple of 'Separatist" who were wearing pieces of uniforms with some Russian markings but they appeared to be make shift attempts at putting together an Olive drab uniform.

The Hungarians sold Kiev a bunch of T-72 tanks which are still used by Russia but not the Ukraine. Kiev paid the scap metal price of $8,500 each probably in an attempt to prove Russian invasion. Anyone who would think Russians would drive their Russian marked tanks into the Ukraine is an idiot. If they are there, they are not marked.

Lots of command and control issues trying to manage 9,000 covert Russians. The mere statement that there are Russians involved is of course true. There are Americans involved but the nature of the involvement does not constitute an invasion. Are they operating as intact units or are they replacements, trainers, ect..? Americans love to use trainers as a loose term which means there are Americans involved. We did that with the Afganis in the 80's but we clearly were not training Afganis. They had no intention of fighting using our tactics.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

Of course we can read a coke can from space but there may be nothing to read. There are Russians involved, at issue is the number and what they are actually doing.

[F430murci]

You gotta love the fact that some, outside of Russia, believe Putin propoganda. Russians no longer buy it even in the more industrial cut off areas such as my wife's home town of Novosibirisk. Our friends in Moscow and St. Petersburg working in finical sectors or in large multinational companies have gotten it for a while.

Putin and his government controlled media blitz including Twitter and Facebook trolls are still running stories that MH17 was full of dead bodies. That Ukraine and the US shot down the plane to garner public support against Russua.

Putin accused Kiev of blowing up the trolley/bus full of elderly people to sway public opinion against Russua.

Too many Russia soldier funerals for soldiers mysteriously dying while away from their families on "vacation" or during border exercises. Russians talk and are smart enough to figure this one out.

There are too many living in Russia and Ukraine that are close friends so the truth has been bleeding out.

Even my wife's family in Novisibirsk who were once angered by any insinuation that Russia was in Ukraine are now all saying that Russia should have never gone in and they need to get out. My wife cannot discuss this without becoming emotional and literally prays out loud in her little weird Russian way that Russia stops this and gets out.

[F430murci]

Here is a great article on Putin's use of Internet trolls to posts 1o post tens of thousands media reports,, Twitter accounts or Facebook entries daily.

You gotta be very guillable or a troll to write or believe some of Putin's insane, alternate reality bs.

----------

Putin's New Weapon In The Ukraine Propaganda War: Internet Trolls

Putins Alice-in-Wonderland can be wacky, mind boggling, irritating, disgusting, cynical, and incorrigible, but underlying it is a sinister narrative of an alternate reality, cleverly designed to promote Putins goals and head off effective Western actions.

. . .

According to a Buzzfeed account, each troll is expected to post 50 news articles daily and maintain six Facebook and ten Twitter accounts, with 50 tweets per day. At these rates, a small army of one thousand trolls will post 100,000 news articles and tweets per day. The Kremlin does not spare the cash. In a time of austerity, the budget for participation in the international information space is scheduled to rise to some $250 million in the next couple of years.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

Edited January 25, 2015 by Scott
Edited for fair use

[midas]

You gotta love the fact that some, outside of Russia, believe Putin propoganda. Russians no longer buy it even in the more industrial cut off areas such as my wife's home town of Novosibirisk. Our friends in Moscow and St. Petersburg working in finical sectors or in large multinational companies have gotten it for a while.

Putin and his government controlled media blitz including Twitter and Facebook trolls are still running stories that MH17 was full of dead bodies. That Ukraine and the US shot down the plane to garner public support against Russua.

Putin accused Kiev of blowing up the trolley/bus full of elderly people to sway public opinion against Russua.

Too many Russia soldier funerals for soldiers mysteriously dying while away from their families on "vacation" or during border exercises. Russians talk and are smart enough to figure this one out.

There are too many living in Russia and Ukraine that are close friends so the truth has been bleeding out.

Even my wife's family in Novisibirsk who were once angered by any insinuation that Russia was in Ukraine are now all saying that Russia should have never gone in and they need to get out. My wife cannot discuss this without becoming emotional and literally prays out loud in her little weird Russian way that Russia stops this and gets out.

And yet it is Ukraine not Russia that seems to want to continue the aggression?

And I hope you are not going to imply that Reuters is not credible

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KR0VX20150118?irpc=932

[midas]

Maybe it's because this only weeks left before Ukraine is bankrupt

Edited January 24, 2015 by midas

[F430murci]

You gotta love the fact that some, outside of Russia, believe Putin propoganda. Russians no longer buy it even in the more industrial cut off areas such as my wife's home town of Novosibirisk. Our friends in Moscow and St. Petersburg working in finical sectors or in large multinational companies have gotten it for a while.

Putin and his government controlled media blitz including Twitter and Facebook trolls are still running stories that MH17 was full of dead bodies. That Ukraine and the US shot down the plane to garner public support against Russua.

Putin accused Kiev of blowing up the trolley/bus full of elderly people to sway public opinion against Russua.

Too many Russia soldier funerals for soldiers mysteriously dying while away from their families on "vacation" or during border exercises. Russians talk and are smart enough to figure this one out.

There are too many living in Russia and Ukraine that are close friends so the truth has been bleeding out.

Even my wife's family in Novisibirsk who were once angered by any insinuation that Russia was in Ukraine are now all saying that Russia should have never gone in and they need to get out. My wife cannot discuss this without becoming emotional and literally prays out loud in her little weird Russian way that Russia stops this and gets out.

And yet it is Ukraine not Russia that seems to want to continue the aggression?

And I hope you are not going to imply that Reuters is not credible

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0KR0VX20150118?irpc=932

Oh my God. You don't get it. First off, Ukraine is pissed. They want their country back and they are pissed at Russia.

Just today, Rebels shelled Mariupol civilian neighborhoods killing a bunch of civilians and rebels are completely ignoring the cease fire. This really benefits only Purin.

As I stated before, a Ukrainian friend just last night said her 50 year old mother and father are saying they will join the army to fight the Russians and become hereos.

. . . And who just overran the airport (after alleged cease fire) where the Ukraine heroes known as Cyborgs had been holed up in what had became a symbol of national pride. Putin wanted that done to break moral.

There would be no "rebel" resistance right now without Russua support and encouragement.

Not sure how anyone could be so blind to think Russia wants peace here just because that is what Putin says in his media propaganda.

Edited January 24, 2015 by F430murci

[Choctastic]

Here is a great article on Putin's use of Internet trolls to posts 1o post tens of thousands media reports,, Twitter accounts or Facebook entries daily.

You gotta be very guillable or a troll to write or believe some of Putin's insane, alternate reality bs.

Likewise with Israel's 'Hasbara' trolls.

Can you give some examples of 'insane, alternate reality bs' because, I haven't seen anything that merits such language, unless it's fake pandemics or Iraq WMDs. AFAIK the 'rebels' asked to become part of a Russian Federation and Putin turned them down. Do you think Russia doesn't have the right to stand up for the Russian-speaking Eastern Ukraine? Do you think it is okay that a Russian-leaning President should be ousted in a violent coup by Neo-Nazis and Jew haters, instead of democratically in an election?

[F430murci]

Well speak some facts.

This is reality or facts. Rebels are escalating violence and targeting civilians in spite if cease fire. Do you dispute these attacks or do you think this is Kiev blowing up their own civilians to keep conflict going as Putin states?

This stuff is no joke. Ukraine wants a cease fire so they can get IMF funds and start rebuilding their own country. Putin wants to avoid that at all costs so who really has incentive here to escalate conflict?

--------

DONETSK, Ukraine Unexpectedly, at the height of the Ukrainian winter, war has exploded anew on a half-dozen battered fronts across eastern Ukraine, accompanied by increasing evidence that Russian troops and Russian equipment have been pouring into the region again.

A shaky cease-fire has all but vanished, with rebel leaders vowing fresh attacks. Civilians are being hit by deadly mortars at bus stops. Tanks are rumbling down snowy roads in rebel-held areas with soldiers in unmarked green uniforms sitting on their turrets, waving at bystanders a disquieting echo of the little green men whose appearance in Crimea opened this stubborn conflict in the spring.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/world/europe/ukraine-violence.html?referrer=

Edited January 24, 2015 by F430murci

[Choctastic]

Rebels are escalating violence and targeting civilians in spite if cease fire.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/world/europe/ukraine-violence.html?referrer=

The fact you would reference the NY Times, says it all. Don't you have a more credible source?

[thaibeachlovers]

Nobody wins in a world war, end of story. What will happen I have no idea, but I hope saner heads prevail on both sides.

Nobody wins in any war, but it seems to be the one thing that keeps populations down. Imagine what the world population would be now if not for WW1 and 2. With population now exceeding the ability of the planet to sustain it, it may be Gaia's way of pest control.

Might have been better to have had good population control measures after WW2.

[thaibeachlovers]

Here is a great article on Putin's use of Internet trolls to posts 1o post tens of thousands media reports,, Twitter accounts or Facebook entries daily.

You gotta be very guillable or a troll to write or believe some of Putin's insane, alternate reality bs.

----------

Putin's New Weapon In The Ukraine Propaganda War: Internet Trolls

Putins Alice-in-Wonderland can be wacky, mind boggling, irritating, disgusting, cynical, and incorrigible, but underlying it is a sinister narrative of an alternate reality, cleverly designed to promote Putins goals and head off effective Western actions.

. . .

According to a Buzzfeed account, each troll is expected to post 50 news articles daily and maintain six Facebook and ten Twitter accounts, with 50 tweets per day. At these rates, a small army of one thousand trolls will post 100,000 news articles and tweets per day. The Kremlin does not spare the cash. In a time of austerity, the budget for participation in the international information space is scheduled to rise to some $250 million in the next couple of years.

But remember: In Putins parallel universe, there is no troll army. They are a fantasy of Western paranoia. It is, however, a fact that these non-existent trolls overwhelm comments sections of media to render meaningful dialogue impossible. The Guardians editor reported 40,000 comments a day by an orchestrated pro-Kremlin campaign of pro-Russia trolling on Ukraine stories. Harassed by the flood, some publications have decided to close their comments sections, as the Moscow Times informed its readers:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

They can troll away to their hearts content on facecrap and twatter. I never use them. Biggest load of twaddle ever published in the history of mankind. "Here is a picture of what I'm eating"- give me strength

[F430murci]

Here is a great article on Putin's use of Internet trolls to posts 1o post tens of thousands media reports,, Twitter accounts or Facebook entries daily.

You gotta be very guillable or a troll to write or believe some of Putin's insane, alternate reality bs.

----------

Putin's New Weapon In The Ukraine Propaganda War: Internet Trolls

Putins Alice-in-Wonderland can be wacky, mind boggling, irritating, disgusting, cynical, and incorrigible, but underlying it is a sinister narrative of an alternate reality, cleverly designed to promote Putins goals and head off effective Western actions.

. . .

According to a Buzzfeed account, each troll is expected to post 50 news articles daily and maintain six Facebook and ten Twitter accounts, with 50 tweets per day. At these rates, a small army of one thousand trolls will post 100,000 news articles and tweets per day. The Kremlin does not spare the cash. In a time of austerity, the budget for participation in the international information space is scheduled to rise to some $250 million in the next couple of years.

But remember: In Putins parallel universe, there is no troll army. They are a fantasy of Western paranoia. It is, however, a fact that these non-existent trolls overwhelm comments sections of media to render meaningful dialogue impossible. The Guardians editor reported 40,000 comments a day by an orchestrated pro-Kremlin campaign of pro-Russia trolling on Ukraine stories. Harassed by the flood, some publications have decided to close their comments sections, as the Moscow Times informed its readers:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/12/09/putins-new-weapon-in-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

They can troll away to their hearts content on facecrap and twatter. I never use them. Biggest load of twaddle ever published in the history of mankind. "Here is a picture of what I'm eating"- give me strength

No doubt. I don't have a twitter account and don't use facebook. Completely stupid &lt;deleted&gt; full of psychos and spam . . . oops, I just described the place.

[Publicus]

If the press could prove Russian involvement, they would not have to use terms like "Russian backed Separatist".I checked out all of the photos from the radio free Europe sites as well as Reuters and Tass and plenty of pictures. Obviously, no Russian uniforms. If the Russians are there, they are not stupid enough to wear Russian uniforms and carry a Russian flag. I did see a couple of 'Separatist" who were wearing pieces of uniforms with some Russian markings but they appeared to be make shift attempts at putting together an Olive drab uniform.

The Hungarians sold Kiev a bunch of T-72 tanks which are still used by Russia but not the Ukraine. Kiev paid the scap metal price of $8,500 each probably in an attempt to prove Russian invasion. Anyone who would think Russians would drive their Russian marked tanks into the Ukraine is an idiot. If they are there, they are not marked.

Lots of command and control issues trying to manage 9,000 covert Russians. The mere statement that there are Russians involved is of course true. There are Americans involved but the nature of the involvement does not constitute an invasion. Are they operating as intact units or are they replacements, trainers, ect..? Americans love to use trainers as a loose term which means there are Americans involved. We did that with the Afganis in the 80's but we clearly were not training Afganis. They had no intention of fighting using our tactics.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

Of course we can read a coke can from space but there may be nothing to read. There are Russians involved, at issue is the number and what they are actually doing.

Russians would not invade without close air support. Kiev has control of the air only because the Russians do not want it.

That concedes a vital point, that Russia does not control Ukraine air space only because Russia does not want to control it. You don't say Russia isn't involved, the post instead says it's a matter of Russian choice not to control the air space over Ukraine.

If Russia took control of the air space over Ukraine then there'd be no hiding of anything would there. There would be Russian little green men on the ground and in combat aircraft overhead.

While it is also true Russia would not "invade" without first establishing control over air space, Moscow has not in fact invaded Ukraine has it. Moscow has infiltrated across the considerable border and it has infiltrated under the satellite and other eyes of Nato and before the eyes of Ukrainians themselves both civilian and military. Russia did insert its military forces into the Crimea which then had an overwhelming and "true" vote to return to the sacred motherland didn't it.

The fighting in Ukraine throughout last year involved large scale mobile operations carried out by large units of well organized, disciplined and commanded military forces....of each side. The fact reveals the presence of two state actors in the Donbas conflict areas of Ukraine, that of Russia and of the Ukraine.

Russian heavily armed, equipped and supplied combat units under skilled command are operating in the Donbas region while other Russian regular army combat troops are stationed at the considerable border. That's what Russians are actually doing there. Russians are using state military force to try to separate the Donbas from the Ukraine.

[craigt3365]

Several off topic and troll posts have been removed from view. Apologies to the members with the appropriate replies.

Please stay on topic and respect fellow members. Credible news sources only, please.