Crackdown On "farang" Teachers

[sriracha john]

It would seem that by reading

by Sunbelt Asia's If You Are A Teacher..., Be aware thread

The Degree vs No Degree issue

is but a small concern to the more pressing matter for many, many teachers in Thailand, which is

The Work Permit vs No Work Permit issue.

The "crackdown" of this thread's title has begun....

Edited August 23, 2006 by sriracha john

[robint]

Hi Guys

This qualification thing really is an old horse chestnut, you only have to look at Ajarn.com and Daves ESL cafe to see all the debate going back years now.

The los gov is only proposing to do what it should have done way back when, but as pointed out, the salaries were ludicrous

If they enforce the new vetting procedure then, as also pointed out, they will lose 75% of existing white warm bodied Teachers as of now. Everyone knows that. IMHO thyis is another fad that will disappear inside 2 months SNAFU

However, I dont know what you can reasonably do about the potential perverts with young kids (high school not such a problem as they can spot a wrong un in a microsecond). I am sure we can all agree that some vetting is needed (such as a police certificate)

from the UK view these are available, the embassy has the address to write to, I have a feeling it cost about 20quid but can take up to 2 months

From my limited experience, I taught primary school up country and it quickly showed me that , whilst being well endowed academically, I was nowhere near well enough skilled in handling young kids to their full benefit (a great bunch and we played a lot of games and sang a lot of songs). I decided to try and evaluate my success rate after one years and ws very disappointed with myself, just a well meaning amateur. I also researched TEFL and discovered there is a special type of TEFL for primary school kids (I forget the exact acronym). Having looked at the syllabus, I realised how little I knew

I could have gone further and studied for the certificate, but teaching at that level is just too exhausting and I am too old for that kind of pressure.

[lannarebirth]

What's a degree?

It's a piece of paper that shows that one has wasted a significant amount of time studying for some theoretical stuff which he/she will never again put to use in his/her life, a time during which money could have been earned instead of being spent, a time during which practice could have been obtained instead of theoretical "knowledge".

Thanh

You have a point Khun Thanh, but how is a prospective employer who has to decide between hiring you and someone who has taken the trouble to become "qualified", per the employers specifications, to know that you could do as good or a better job? You're asking them to to take a risk. Risks are not what parents enrolling their children in school want. There's a better approach.

I spent my career as a US Merchant Marine officer. There are three ways to become qualified to become a USMM officer. 1) One can attend a 4 year Merchant Marine academy, graduating with a BS degree and prepared to sit for licensing examinations as a Third Mate/Engineer. 2) One may have served sufficient time at sea (many years) as an officer aboard US Naval ships, and upon discharge or retirement may present their service history to the vetting agency, and if approved may sit for the appropriate officers licensing examinations. or 3) One may rise through the ranks from the lowliest Ordinary Seaman, (whose chief duties are mopping and painting), to Able Bodied Seaman( who may be a helmsman, lookout, posessing greater seamanship abilities). Upon spending sufficient number of years at sea in these unlicensed positions which require far lesser resposibilities and becoming qualified for many ship related tasks, an AB seman may sit for licensing examinations as Third mate(an incredible amount of technical self education involved).

What's important is each type of officer aspirant payed their dues to get what he wanted, and the prospective employer could be assured that no matter how they got there, each applicant had ,in the end, passed the same rigorous time and academic standard that the career demanded.

From reading many of the posts here, it seems that there is a dearth of qualified english teachers, here in Thailand. If that's so, I suspect qualified teachers can expect larger classes soon and likely higher wages. Perhaps a good suggestion to be made, might be to hire "teaching assistants" to aide the qualified teacher in the classroom. These assistants could be paid much less but would have to undergo the same criminal background checks. Through self education and this work experience, perhaps then these assistants might be able to sit for standardized tests that would give them the "qualification" to be a bonafide teacher. It's just an idea, and I don't know if such a way exists here, but I think it's a good idea and will separateout the riffraff from those who aspire to be genuinely qualified teachers.

[PeaceBlondie]

Isn't there a minimum amount that a farang is supposed to make in Thailand if he or she is legally employed?

Is it something like 40,000 baht per month?

If so, since the Thai government seems like it is going to require all farang teachers to be qualified, doesn't it make sence to pay all farang teachers in Thailand the minimum required by Thai law to work?

I think the qualified farang teachers who are left teaching in Thailand should demand the Thai schools pay their wages or stage a walk out.

Hey....a strike. Hmmmm.....I wonder how that will play out in Thailand? What if all farang English teachers who don't agree with the new policy did not go to work tomorrow. I wonder what they would say about that?

I wonder how many farang English teachers would go on strike to protest the new policy?

We understand that, for obvious reasons, those minimum salaries for farangs don't apply to the teaching field. It's always misunderstood which agency applies that magic figure, but not all foreign citizens have the same salary minimum applied to them.

Uh....whether or not it "makes sense" has little if anything to do with it.

There doesn't need to be a strike or a walkout en masse; that's not possible. I can afford to refuse a job, but these guys who married their Thai girl and made a baby....they're stuck in Thailand, and can't leave.

[Ijustwannateach]

By the way, what about the various non-native speaking nationalities? Will the Filipinos, Pakistanis, Burmese, etc., etc. have to get criminal clearance from their home countries?

[Huckenfell]

Thailand needs teachers to educate the government officiials on how not to be stupid, they are children, something I have discovered after living here a while...............they are like children

Couldn't agree with you more on this

The adult corporate classes were a real nightmare to teach. They need clowns in Thailand not educators . It amazes me how a group of educated Thai adults in their fifties almost had an orgy over a game suitable for 2-years olds. Needless to say I no longer do corporate.

On the subject of paedophiles, my ex paedophile boss was a B ed + TEFL holder and working for a bilingual school on Sukhumvit for less than 50k - go figure...

Reality is, Thailand is a haven for foreign paedophiles!

All i can say is that if anyone knows a practising paedophile and is not willing to turn him in, is in my mind, just as guilty.

[julie_f]

I do have a degree but in a completeley unrelated subject, maths but still gives me a wp. Have done a tefl course and had to do a viewed lesson before getting the job.

I think there should be some background checks in place but it will be so difficult to implement unless you come to thailand with a police check. No doubt KSR wil be doing fakes soon enough.

Most thai schools dont plan far enough in advance to do checks. It can take weeks or months to get checks done in Uk. Even checking references could be a problem. May take a while for people to get back to them.

[bazmlb]

Is it true there was anyone teacher locked up in jail in Pattaya and commited suicide about 3 weeks ago? You will never guess what he was in for?

[lannarebirth]

I think there should be some background checks in place but it will be so difficult to implement unless you come to thailand with a police check. No doubt KSR wil be doing fakes soon enough.

Most thai schools dont plan far enough in advance to do checks. It can take weeks or months to get checks done in Uk. Even checking references could be a problem. May take a while for people to get back to them.

It's a work in progress, but US not too far away from having a unified state/federal datbase for timely criminal background checks:

http://apps.mentoring.org/safetynet/index.adp

[Laulen]

Apparently there are quite a few people posting here who regard themselves as "teachers", yet have no teaching degree/qualification.

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want to teach you need the proper qualifications? and I don't mean the Kao-Sarn type of degree!

Especially when it comes to teaching children, knowledge about a language is just not enough. A proper education in pedagogical science is an absolute must!

opalhort

I have to say this is a good move... teachers with no qualfications have no business working in Thailand.. it's about time they cleaned this up.

The only people who should be scared are the ones with no real degree and no formal teaching qualifications.. about time they sorted out the backpacker teachers here.

Bingo dude, I couldn't have said it better myself

There seems to be a lot of knocking of non BA teachers since this latest probe developed.

Being a very lowly TEFL certificated teacher, who has taught a number of years here, I have seen a great many M, BA, etc, ( my piers according to many posts on here) who seem to be unable to teach basic language skills & are removed from their schools.

Its not the qualifications that count it’s the ability to teach foreign students.

It’s very different from teaching in western schools as many find out to their cost.

Yes there may well need a shake up in the system but lets do it on teaching skills not on yet more qualifications.

John Mark Karr, 41, who had worked as a teacher of some international schools as we understand, was fully qualified, was removed because of his poor altitude to his pupils.

So the system we have now is working to some extent.

Several of my piers (M. B.A) have been removed from schools I have taught at for poor teaching skills, losing their temper etc.

Again the system does work in some schools.

It’s no good being an over educated idiot if you can’t do the job.

Paul.

Exactly! If you can do the job, as reviewed by your peers, then you should be allowed to teach.

As for Opalhort's views,

Apparently there are quite a few people posting here who regard themselves as "teachers", yet have no teaching degree/qualification.

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want to teach you need the proper qualifications? and I don't mean the Kao-Sarn type of degree!

Especially when it comes to teaching children, knowledge about a language is just not enough. A proper education in pedagogical science is an absolute must!

opalhort

that may be the ideal, but in practice is highly unlikely. How many teachers of English in Thailand have a 'proper education in pedagogical science'? I doubt if there are more than 100 of such expat. people in LOS, and most of them may not be teaching English. What happened to 'on the job' training and Accreditation of Prior Learning? What about common sense, a real interest in the subject your teaching and an interest in meeting the educational needs of your students?

Incidently, I had Thai schools inspectors from the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority observe a class of mine, and I also wrote a primary schools curriculum outline for Pathom levels 1 to 6 for a prominent English language school. And still I cannot 'regularise' my employment status with a Work Permit in Thailand.

My attitude is, if I am professionally recognised and approved to teach in the United Kingdom, then I should be accorded the same professional respect and acknowledgement in other countries. As someone elsewhere noted, in this globally connected world it is not difficult to check up on my credentials or my teaching experience. Failure on the part of the Education Ministry in Thailand to take account of these 'non-standard' expat teachers will guarantee even fewer Thai children and adults come to that, learning English. The country could well be the poorer economically as a result.

Laulen

[aqua4]

Lets see from this thread we can surmise that only 25% of teachers are legally teaching English. That leaves 75% or 7-8 out of every 10 teachers out of the government system. If criminal records are going to be checked, they will only check the 25% of registered/work permit teachers. The great majority will just carry on as if nothing had happened.

[Scott]

I once had to have emergency neurosurgery here in Thailand. It was a delicate operation and went well--as a matter of fact, I made a full recovery. I am sure glad the doctors, the nurses and the anesthesiologist had real degrees.

[brahmburgers]

wow, popular topic - lots of input, including some 'newbies' right-o!

Some succint points:

>>> Even with the supposedly thorough checking of police records, whether from the 'home country' or by the amazingly inept Thai authorities, would not have screened Karr.

>>> Thailand needs more native English speakers - indeed as many as possible who are willing to devote their time and skills to teaching English. If the qualifications become more restrictive, less farang will be on hand to share their knowledge.

>>> if the proposed restrictions are enforced, richer schools will get degreed teachers (though degrees don't preclude lusting after young students) - and poorer school students will slip further down the slope of not being able to converse in English.

>>> Currently, the level of conversational English, even among educated Thais, is generally abysmal. A hill tribe kid from a thatch & bamboo house is more likely able to converse in English than a government bigwig - and that's because the kid has had interactions (hopefully positive) with farang.

[p_brownstone]

The old “I don’t have a degree but I’m a good teacher so I should be allowed to work in Thailand” plaint is pointless and tedious.

If the Education Ministry requires that a Teacher in Thailand must have a degree the only thing that will change that prerequisite is to get rid of the unqualified teachers who work for a pittance and – because of their availability – make the salaries offered to genuine, qualified teachers here so low. Once the rule is enforced properly the supply of teachers will be far lower than the demand, forcing the Education Ministry and other Agencies to review their requirements and, inevitably, increase the salaries offered too.

For those teachers without the required degree, I am certain there are many other Countries where the requirements are not so strict and you can find work – go there.

Of course the living conditions - and possibly the Students - may be not as attractive but that’s surely not a problem for you.

After all, you just desperately want to teach – right?

Patrick

[frozenpeas42]

What the hel_l would a "properly educated", fully qualified teacher be doing working for a pittance in thailand?

I'd say you'd have to be more suspicious of someone like that than a well meaning backpacker who just wants to see the world and make a few quid.

[PeaceBlondie]

The old “I don’t have a degree but I’m a good teacher so I should be allowed to work in Thailand” plaint is pointless and tedious.

If the Education Ministry requires that a Teacher in Thailand must have a degree the only thing that will change that prerequisite is to get rid of the unqualified teachers who work for a pittance and – because of their availability – make the salaries offered to genuine, qualified teachers here so low. Once the rule is enforced properly the supply of teachers will be far lower than the demand, forcing the Education Ministry and other Agencies to review their requirements and, inevitably, increase the salaries offered too.

For those teachers without the required degree, I am certain there are many other Countries where the requirements are not so strict and you can find work – go there.

Of course the living conditions - and possibly the Students - may be not as attractive but that’s surely not a problem for you.

After all, you just desperately want to teach – right?

Patrick

Yes and no, p brownstone, in my opinion. Generally, all other things being equal, which they never are, a person with a teaching degree and a teaching subject, does a far better job than some person who never taught and never went to uni. Of course. But this is Thailand, and there is never going to be enough "fully qualified professional, non-criminal, non-paedo" candidates to fill any more job slots than the over-100,000 baht per month jobs at the true international schools.

Also, even if the supply pool suddenly decreases, that's no reason for salaries to increase. Thailand does not always follow the supply/demand/price curve. They want cheap labour. Yes, even Thai administrators with advanced education degrees want cheap labour in Thai schools.

[ray23]

This is all very intersting, but this is (TT) Thailand, do you really think any of this is going to be enforced?

[Scott]

Why do people keep saying that Karr wouldn't have been disqualified as a teacher on a records check--He would have been. His teaching license in California was cancelled. A criminal record check would have shown he had a pending pornography charge.

Where I work, a potential employee from Australia was denied a non-immigrant B visa by the Thai Embassy after the foreign ministry (on their own initiative) did a background check when the paper work was submitted to them. He was never allowed to leave Australia.

He was a convicted child molester.

[sriracha john]

It would seem that by reading

by Sunbelt Asia's If You Are A Teacher..., Be aware thread

The Degree vs No Degree issue

is but a small concern to the more pressing matter for many, many teachers in Thailand, which is

The Work Permit vs No Work Permit issue.

The "crackdown" of this thread's title has begun....

This is all very intersting, but this is (TT) Thailand, do you really think any of this is going to be enforced?

Judging by the above post, it IS being enforced.

[katnip]

What the hel_l would a "properly educated", fully qualified teacher be doing working for a pittance in thailand?

I'd say you'd have to be more suspicious of someone like that than a well meaning backpacker who just wants to see the world and make a few quid.

Sorry, but that's just absurd. The point is that EVERYONE should be checked. If someone is going to work with children a responsible employer would not assume anything.

Let's not turn this into an opportunity to undermine eachother because job security is in danger.

There are fully qualified, well experienced teachers here for the same reasons others are - glorious natural surroundings and low cost of living. If you have reached a position of financial stability it is a very attractive option.

More opportunities for legal PART-TIME work would make it ideal.

Scott :

Why do people keep saying that Karr wouldn't have been disqualified as a teacher on a records check--He would have been. His teaching license in California was cancelled. A criminal record check would have shown he had a pending pornography charge.

Correct. (Interesting, too, that he was trying to work in places where a background check might reasonably have been expected, rather than illegally, just as an aside.)

Edited August 24, 2006 by katnip

[PeaceBlondie]

This is all very intersting, but this is (TT) Thailand, do you really think any of this is going to be enforced?

Yes, or I don't know. Why do something illegal, knowing it could be enforced? We advise against breaking Thai law. We're guessing 75% of the farang teachers here break the law.

[Ijustwannateach]

Why do people keep saying that Karr wouldn't have been disqualified as a teacher on a records check--He would have been. His teaching license in California was cancelled. A criminal record check would have shown he had a pending pornography charge.

Where I work, a potential employee from Australia was denied a non-immigrant B visa by the Thai Embassy after the foreign ministry (on their own initiative) did a background check when the paper work was submitted to them. He was never allowed to leave Australia.

He was a convicted child molester.

Ok, Scott, thanks- I wasn't aware of that. So a background check WOULD have shown something up on Karr. However, given the timing, he still wouldn't have been caught based on that- he was only working for a month or so, right?

P_Brownstone,

It's no skin off my nose if they ban people from working as TEFLers who don't have college degrees, but I think it would be a very silly thing to do. No way would I waste my college degree on the TEFL-scale salaries in Thailand for very long- I nearly left the country because of that silly stuff.

In Japan, they have special working visas depending on just what kind of teacher you are. One type of visa allows you to work at language schools and as a conversation teacher; another is for working in the public school system, etc. They desperately need a system like that here to legalise and regulate the equally desperately needed TEFL conversation teachers. They could allow those with TEFL certs. to get the one kind, and those with subject degrees or educational degrees to get the other.

If you're talking about banning every kind of degree except educational degrees, then Thailand will simply have only 150 or so foreign teachers, and that's just not going to happen. Even Japan can't attract that kind of interest from those with B.Ed's in other countries.

I *still* think this is not supposed to be a qualifications thread, and all this other stuff should be split off and merged with one of the equally boring and repetitive threads where we've hashed over all this stuff about 1000 times in the teacher's forum.

"Steven"

[katnip]

In Japan, they have special working visas depending on just what kind of teacher you are. One type of visa allows you to work at language schools and as a conversation teacher; another is for working in the public school system, etc. They desperately need a system like that here to legalise and regulate the equally desperately needed TEFL conversation teachers. They could allow those with TEFL certs. to get the one kind, and those with subject degrees or educational degrees to get the other.

Agree. Have you thought of expressing these thoughts in a letter to a few pertinent places, including the newspapers ? Ears and minds might be a little more open just now. I'd do so myself if I were not so new here.

I *still* think this is not supposed to be a qualifications thread, and all this other stuff should be split off and merged with one of the equally boring and repetitive threads where we've hashed over all this stuff about 1000 times in the teacher's forum.

And agree ...

[ilyushin]

What is all the fuss? The Thais will weed out the unwanted teacher regardless of the qualifications.

Teachers with or without qualifications will be successful with continued support from the stiudents and staff.

Most expats I know don't even work in the field that they originally studied. We naturally improve our skills as needed to get the job done.

[paulmw]

What is all the fuss? The Thais will weed out the unwanted teacher regardless of the qualifications.

Teachers with or without qualifications will be successful with continued support from the stiudents and staff.

Most expats I know don't even work in the field that they originally studied. We naturally improve our skills as needed to get the job done.

Ilyushin you have hit the nail on the head seen it many times in the provinces.

paul

[ray23]

It would seem that by reading

by Sunbelt Asia's If You Are A Teacher..., Be aware thread

The Degree vs No Degree issue

is but a small concern to the more pressing matter for many, many teachers in Thailand, which is

The Work Permit vs No Work Permit issue.

The "crackdown" of this thread's title has begun....

This is all very intersting, but this is (TT) Thailand, do you really think any of this is going to be enforced?

Judging by the above post, it IS being enforced.

Not in Issan or they have missed a lot

What will be most interesting is what things are like three months from now

[sriracha john]

It would seem that by reading

by Sunbelt Asia's If You Are A Teacher..., Be aware thread

The Degree vs No Degree issue

is but a small concern to the more pressing matter for many, many teachers in Thailand, which is

The Work Permit vs No Work Permit issue.

The "crackdown" of this thread's title has begun....

This is all very intersting, but this is (TT) Thailand, do you really think any of this is going to be enforced?

Judging by the above post, it IS being enforced.

Not in Issan or they have missed a lot

What will be most interesting is what things are like three months from now

As with many "crackdowns," they begin at the "hub" of "crackdowns," Bangkok, and then fan out from there.

I agree the future will determine their seriousness. Even within a month, we should know if they are serious about it, like they were for the fake visas and fake stamps... or if, like many other "crackdowns," it's business as usual the following month.

[markg]

I seem to remember something like this happening in the Army in the mid 90's.

They said they were going to do random drug tests and anyone failing would be instantly kicked out. So after a while, they decided to do their first regiment. They marched them all into the gym and tested them. Hundreds failed - traces of weed in their system.

So the army had to back track. They just couldnt kick all these people out - no matter how undesirable weed was in their systems.

When you let a situation get that far out of hand then its hard to rein it back in - and using draconion measures isnt always the way to do it.

There is just no way that Thailand could cope with losing what appears to be 50 or more percent of its teachers cos they havent got degrees or fail police checks on some misdemeanor years ago.

[Canadianvisitor]

Thailand should announce a new law

Pedophiles to be SHOT upon conviction.

That would change a lot of foriegn misconception

and keep them far from the children.

[madi]

Let me ask you all a serious question.

Would you let your child be taught by someone without a teacher's credential back in your home nation?

A teacher in California for example must have a 4 year degree and then another 3 semesters of Education classes on top of that in order to get a teachers license. They are observed for a long time before they are given the OK to be credentialed by their university. Then and only then are they given the teachers license by the State. The University must be a REAL school and not some fake internet setup. I think all of you here would want that for your children. Also all teachers are finger printed on Both hands and checked for their past record for crime. That is good too and you all know it.

So some of you are posting that it is OK to let someone without the proper background teach children here in THAILAND? That is nonsense and we all know it. Someone with only a high school degree or less is OK you say? Someone with two weeks in a stupid little TEFL school is OK? Please spare me. Are Thai children less worthy in your minds? They deserve less?

This is Thailand and whatever the Thai government does is up to them but I hope they DO check the backgrounds of teachers here. Thai students do not need second rate.

If you have a fake mail for degree--BYE BYE.

If you have NO degree--BYE

If you have a criminal record for a serious crime--see ya.

I do not hate you but I do NOT want you to teach our children. I have children here in Thailand and they deserve better. You all know it.