Crackdown On "farang" Teachers

[hammered]

Why all the degree checks. Having a degree does not stop you being a murderer, rapist, thug or pedophile. Wouldnt concentrating on background checks be more of a sensible idea condsidering the curent case?

[Scott]

The degree check pre-dates the criminal record check. The point here is the level of dishonest with some people. First you lie about your degree--which basically cheapens everyones degree, then they find out later that you are a criminal.

The need is for both things to be done. Then everyone is at least on the up-&-up.

[Jai Dee]

The Education Ministry tightens screening of qualifications of foreign teachers

The Education Ministry, International School Association and bi-lingual schools have agreed to jointly set up a central database to share information on foreign teachers in Thailand.

These organizations discussed measures to protect children from teachers with poor job records and who might pose danger to them in the wake of the arrest in Bangkok of an American teacher suspected of killing a six-year-old girl in the United States in 1996.

Education permanent-secretary Khunying Kasama Worawan na Ayutthaya (กษมา วรวรรณ ณ อยุธยา) said the ministry will check records of foreign teachers with their universities, their former employers and the Foreign Ministry before hiring them.

Khunying Kasama said the screening will ensure safety for children. However, she said the public can call 1579 to report suspicions on qualifications of any foreign teacher.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 22 August 2006

[sriracha john]

That's good news for the 70-odd schools nation-wide with ISAT, however it does nothing much to ensure the same standards... errrr, ANY standards, are in place for the hundreds and hundreds of other schools that aren't with the ISAT.

[spectrum]

What about the responsibility of the passport-holder's home country in issuing alerts and setting up websites where such information can be located quickly and easily ?

Seems to me Mr Karr's movements could have been curtailed several years ago if there had been more action from the home country.

[Scott]

Whoa, this guy was not a known murderer or a known pedophile. The most he might have had was a charge of possession of child pornography and he (if it was actually him) didn't stick around for a conviction.

Unless you want mass witch hunts where people can send out things like --"he looks like...", "I think he is capable of...." based on no evidence, you might want to be careful.

Countries do post offenders and in alot of countries (including the US), passports are confiscated.

For all we actually know, this guy may only be guilty of being rather rigid as a teacher and being a real kook. My understanding of part of the reason he was picked up was because they thought he might be a flight risk and obviously Thailand agreed they didn't want him here. He was basically deported from the country with no charges pressed--that's why he was handcuffed etc. in the plane.

[spectrum]

Did he not run out on charges of possession of child pornography ? You can run out on charges of such a serious nature but hang on to your passport ? Strange world.

Was his teaching licence in the USA (or a state of the USA) not revoked ?

I would think these two things might well be worth a mention on an international database.

He also, apparently, later had some kind of website which purported to offer some sort of child-friendly service but revealed his paedophiliac intentions. Nobody watching him from his home country at all ? Seems not, until now.

Edited August 22, 2006 by spectrum

[Laulen]

Well, Mr. Karr has done it for us teachers who have taught in Thailand with validated and internationally recognised teaching qualifications (Cambridge DELTA or Trinity Diploma) and without a degree.

What are we, competent and experienced teachers to do? Leave and teach in another country? A degree is NO EVIDENCE of a person's ability to teach. The MOE should exercise more common sense over the allocation of licences to teachers wishing to teach in bilingual schools.

Laulen

[george]

Update:

Foreign Ministry can help screen foreign teachers

BANGKOK: -- To avert potential 'bad cases' from occurring, Thailand's Foreign Ministry is ready to cooperate with schools nationwide to screen prospective foreign teachers before they come to Thailand.

Checking the qualifications of foreign teachers before recruiting them to work for their schools is a high-profile concern in the wake of the case of an American teacher charged with murdering a six-year-old girl in the United States 10 years ago, Foreign Minister Dr. Kantathi Suphamongkhon said Tuesday.

Dr. Kantathi said the ministry has always exchanged information with other countries on blacklisted people or international criminals, and that the ministry was pleased to cooperate with schools scrutinise the backgrounds of foreign job applicants for potential criminal records.

"I recommend that schools deliberately scrutinise the qualifications of foreign teachers," Dr. Kantathi said, "particularly language teachers."

The foreign minister said that prospective employers should always check with stated past employers and references the applicants mention in their resumes, he said.

"Today is age of information technology (IT)," Dr. Kanthati said, "so schools can use the Internet to contact schools or institutions abroad directly.

Dr. Kantathi ruled out accusation that Thailand was too lax in issuing visas, saying that he considered the visa issue one of his main policies.

He said there was no need for the government to review its visa issuance policy or stop issuing visas to certain countries, but that discussions should be held among agencies concerned to strictly monitor immigration procedures to prevent the entry of inappropriate persons.

Dr. Kantathi's remarks followed last Wednesday's arrest of John Mark Karr, 41, who had worked as a teacher of several international schools in Thailand.

Mr. Karr faces charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault in connection with the 1996 killing of the 6-year-old child beauty queen, JonBenet Ramsey. He was deported to the United States on Sunday.

--TNA 2006-08-22

[Savage]

I totally agree, after all prostitution is technically illegal here. So all the people who sleep with woman for money here should be kicked out, all the people who operate dubious bars must leave (you know who you are), all the people who operate shadow businesses collecting money without having a work permit. You should leave as well.

Tell me, how many of you are living here completely above board breaking no laws?

Anyway, will the last person to leave turn the lights out?

A person working with "fake" credentials ., regardless of nationality, has shown a willingness to deceive and engage in unlawful acts. It is criminal behavior. What parent would want their children exposed to these types of people? These very acts. if known, would exclude them visa entry from most countries.

Exactly! And these criminal acts should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That's what laws are for- to police the conscience of the public. Print up some borchures with nice glossy prints of the average prison cell and maybe a shot or two of this years Miss Katoey Klong Toey prison beauty contest pagents. And then have your perspective applicant sign a form listing the penalties invloved and terms for incarceration. They'll think twice about procceeding with the interview; I guarantee it.

But sadly, that would require a strong judiciary. And as i see it, one of the most tragic flaws this country seems unwilling to address is the judiciary system.

Maybe, since we are talking farang here, maybe their moneis [assuming they had any] couldn't buy them the favors so many other criminals here have secured. But that's beside the point. A couple of high profile prosecutions of imposters with credientials being imprisoned would make a world of difference.

[Laulen]

quote name='george' date='2006-08-22 22:19:00' post='860582'

Update:

Foreign Ministry can help screen foreign teachers

BANGKOK: -- To avert potential 'bad cases' from occurring, Thailand's Foreign Ministry is ready to cooperate with schools nationwide to screen prospective foreign teachers before they come to

Thailand........

Interesting news. If they really check the home country before a teacher arrives in LOS perhaps there is hope for us non-degree holders with years of teaching experience backed up by Criminal Record Bureau checks and teaching qualifications!

Edited August 22, 2006 by Laulen

[lannarebirth]

quote name='george' date='2006-08-22 22:19:00' post='860582'

Update:

Foreign Ministry can help screen foreign teachers

BANGKOK: -- To avert potential 'bad cases' from occurring, Thailand's Foreign Ministry is ready to cooperate with schools nationwide to screen prospective foreign teachers before they come to

Thailand........

Interesting news. If they really check the home country before a teacher arrives in LOS perhaps there is hope for us non-degree holders with years of teaching experience backed up by Criminal Record Bureau checks and teaching qualifications!

If you know teaching is how you want to spend your professional life, than why don't you just get a degree? There are all kinds of paths to obtaining degrees; online, night school, intensive summer schools,etc. I think it would provide you the work security you seek and likely far better compensation.

[Laulen]

quote name='george' date='2006-08-22 22:19:00' post='860582'

Update:

Foreign Ministry can help screen foreign teachers

BANGKOK: -- To avert potential 'bad cases' from occurring, Thailand's Foreign Ministry is ready to cooperate with schools nationwide to screen prospective foreign teachers before they come to

Thailand........

Interesting news. If they really check the home country before a teacher arrives in LOS perhaps there is hope for us non-degree holders with years of teaching experience backed up by Criminal Record Bureau checks and teaching qualifications!

If you know teaching is how you want to spend your professional life, than why don't you just get a degree? There are all kinds of paths to obtaining degrees; online, night school, intensive summer schools,etc. I think it would provide you the work security you seek and likely far better compensation.

It is a common suggestion, but one that is really a non-starter with me. I have no finance, I currently have three jobs, a wife and a child to care for plus a mortgage. Where I would find the time (at least three years at the last count) I do not know.

And all this for what is, arguably, a relatively poorly paid profession of which I have already spent nearly three years in Thailand doing perfectly well. I fail to see what benefit a degree qualification would give me in my teaching in Thailand, apart from your observation of better compensation.

My experience suggested otherwise. My attitude, professional approach and 'can do' ability seemed to 'open doors' to some surprising teaching opportunities that were well paid, while they lasted.

Perhaps I'll just have to remain in Britain, or perhaps try my luck in more 'frontier' countries like Laos, Cambodia, or, heaven forbid, Burma!

Laulen

[opalhort]

Apparently there are quite a few people posting here who regard themselves as "teachers", yet have no teaching degree/qualification.

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want to teach you need the proper qualifications? and I don't mean the Kao-Sarn type of degree!

Especially when it comes to teaching children, knowledge about a language is just not enough. A proper education in pedagogical science is an absolute must!

opalhort

[breconman]

On a previous Posting on this site I seem to recall a comment re the foreign teaching ferternity here in Bangkok and it went somthing like this.

50% of all foreign Teachers do not hold a work Permit.

Out of the remaining 50% half of them hold a fake Diploma

Which leaves 25% legal.

This I would assume would lead to 75% of the current Teachers being relieved of their positions under the proposed new regulations. Again assuming this were the case Bangkok would only have a quatrer of the original foreign Teaching staff , hence a need for a large influx os suitable Teachers.

The mind now bogles as to where these Teachers are going to be recruted from as the salary being offered at this moment in time in most cases is a little on the low side.

And also there is the problem of job losses for the fake diploma venders as the demand for such items would slow down in the Ko-San Road, and let us not forget the blow to the economy as thousands of Good Teachers seek new horizens in lands not to far off.

The major casualty in this issue are the students themselves, perhaps the education ministry is about to shoot itself in the foot. as it stands the teaching of Eglish works fairly well, and any Teaching organization that is up to speed soon sorts out the good from the bad.

Breconman

[niteowl]

Whoa, this guy was not a known murderer or a known pedophile. The most he might have had was a charge of possession of child pornography and he (if it was actually him) didn't stick around for a conviction.

Unless you want mass witch hunts where people can send out things like --"he looks like...", "I think he is capable of...." based on no evidence, you might want to be careful.

Countries do post offenders and in alot of countries (including the US), passports are confiscated.

For all we actually know, this guy may only be guilty of being rather rigid as a teacher and being a real kook. My understanding of part of the reason he was picked up was because they thought he might be a flight risk and obviously Thailand agreed they didn't want him here. He was basically deported from the country with no charges pressed--that's why he was handcuffed etc. in the plane.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't quite agree. From what I've read, Karr was arrested for five counts of possession of child pornography (all misdemeanors, legally, the same level of offense as overtime parking.) He was able to post a bond, pending his hearing, and was told to avoid places where children congregate (such as beaches, parks, schools, etc.) He violated the terms of his bond, and subsequently fled the state before his court hearing.

I think the nature of his offense, and his actions after his arrest, should have warranted revoking his passport. After all, we're not talking about overtime parking - we're talking about a person who fantasizes (at least!) about abusing children. Probably, he chose teaching as a profession, precisely because it would put him in touch with prospective victims. He certainly didn't seem to have any abilities as a teacher, nor did he have the proper qualifications.

I think it's ironic that the USA berates her neighbor, Canada, over being "too lax" about who they let into their country (since, once in Canada, they would have easy access to the USA), while at the same time, the USA is lax about who they let out of the country.

[OxfordWill]

It comes down to this: What sort of teacher would you want -your- kids learning from? Would you care if they had actual teaching qualifications or not?

[Jeng]

It would seem that the chickens have come home to roost. You get what you pay for. If Thai institutions would value their teachers by paying a decent wage for them (all the respect and honor won't cash a check at the bank) then they would demand better qualifications. Instead they try to get by on the cheap. A lot of teachers (especially ESL) seem to have little training or qualifications other than their word and a dusty textbook. And unfortunately, teaching English has become the default profession of those who are unable to obtain other employment in the Kingdom.

[oda561]

Did he not run out on charges of possession of child pornography ? You can run out on charges of such a serious nature but hang on to your passport ? Strange world.

Was his teaching licence in the USA (or a state of the USA) not revoked ?

I would think these two things might well be worth a mention on an international database.

He also, apparently, later had some kind of website which purported to offer some sort of child-friendly service but revealed his paedophiliac intentions. Nobody watching him from his home country at all ? Seems not, until now.

I would think that part of the hiring process should be the person obtaining a police records check, then with this in hand, apply for his B visa. But I know there are bad people out there and I am sure there are ways to even manipulate this. But . . . I think it would stop many with bad intentions from being hired.

Dick

[sossn]

well can u explain to me why Thailand is so tanamount to having a degree for english speaking teachers as long as you have the TESOL qualifications which courses are advertised in Thailand as a Tesol qualification can allow you to teach in China, with better fringe benefits and honesty or in south Korea which has one of the highest pay rates and therefore why is Thailand so special that You need a Degree

[richard10365]

I do think teachers background should be checked out. They should not be a risk to the kids.

However, about their qualifications, I am getting the feeling the only schools that will have qualified farang teachers are the ones who will be able to afford their high farang salaries. These will most likely exclude the poorer schools out in the countryside.

Like it or not, these unqualified farang teachers do provide a service to Thailand that Thailand cannot get anywhere else. They teach their kids English for a cheap price.

Once Thailand gets rid of all the unqualified teachers, it only makes sence that the qualified teachers get a payraise.

It will be a case of supply and demand. The supply will be high and the product will be in short supplyl. Qualified farang teachers will be able to demand higher wages and the rich schools with the rich kids will pay.

The poor schools, especially the ones out in the countryside, will have no farang teachers. Chances are their Thai English teachers will not be skilled enough to teach their students well enough for them to score well on the English part of their higher education test.

So the rich kids will be the only ones going to the best schools in Thailand while the poor kids get whats left.

In the end, IMHO, this will hurt, more than help the Thai educational system. Mostly because the money being paid out to farang English teachers is the same (due to the higher wages) and their will be even less English teachers for Thailand than there were before.

[britainmal]

I think foreign Ministry is just talking in the air. I mean criminal background checks take at least two weeks to verify and checking educational backgrounds take even longer. John Karr had a criminal record, but his educational background was good in fact he was a teacher in the states.

[chinadarling]

I find qualifications meaningless.

Ability and attitude and the desire to constantly learn more is key to being good at what ever you are good at.

I have a humble degree in Science but have successfuly been managing software engineers for some time, most of which have Masters degrees in Compter science. I rarely find a significant gap in my knowledge but when I do I fill it. In fact in my field constantly, so, contantly learning is absulutely essential.

I don't have the patience to teach English, I think that takes a special kind of person with an exceptional amount of patience. I have had many teaachers over the years...how many of them good?

The few that were good where the ones who had qualities that cannot be taught in school.

.

As far as the kids them selves, I think teaching kids smarter ways of dealing with uncomfortable situations is critical, for many years parents used to teach thier kids ' beware of stranger' but more often than not rapes and molestations are done by someone who is not a stranger. (reseach that, you will find it to be true). Far better to tell kids ' tell mommy/daddy rigth away when someone does/says something that makes you uncomfortable. or something you think is bad'. Then you can be proactive in street proofing your kid.

.

You can't pad the world, but you can raise trouble resistant kids.

[sriracha john]

I do think teachers background should be checked out. They should not be a risk to the kids.

However, about their qualifications, I am getting the feeling the only schools that will have qualified farang teachers are the ones who will be able to afford their high farang salaries. These will most likely exclude the poorer schools out in the countryside.

Qualified farang teachers will be able to demand higher wages and the rich schools with the rich kids will pay.

So the rich kids will be the only ones going to the best schools in Thailand while the poor kids get whats left.

In the end, IMHO, this will hurt, more than help the Thai educational system.

You're absolutely correct about the disparity in education it already creates, Richard, and that is absolutely what those in control want.

An uneducated mass is far easier to control.

Case in point:

15,000 schools fail quality check

Watchdog agency says 4.5 million pupils suffer from alarmingly poor standards

News available at:

http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/23/nat...al_30011741.php

Edited August 23, 2006 by sriracha john

[Thanh-BKK]

What's a degree?

It's a piece of paper that shows that one has wasted a significant amount of time studying for some theoretical stuff which he/she will never again put to use in his/her life, a time during which money could have been earned instead of being spent, a time during which practice could have been obtained instead of theoretical "knowledge".

If i had kids, i'd prefer them to be taught the english language by a person who speaks the english language they use out there in the world. He could be a Prof.Dr.Dr. or a motor mechanic by trade, i would not care, as long as my kid would come home able to CONVERSE in english instead of just knowing how to spell words.

Look at the thais, no matter where they "studied" their english (apart from abroad).... they seem to know pretty much everything (in fact i can ask my thai boyfriend for spelling of words or meaning of other words, mind you, i'm a native of Germany)but if it comes to actually SPEAKING the language - he's lost, pronounciation bad, grammar non-existent.

The way thai kids are taught english today by all these "degree holders" makes them little more than walking dictionaries...... lots of knowledge, no idea how to use it. Bring in some street people who know how to actually talk in english instead of following text books, and get some language teaching going!

(And why do holders of master degrees in computer science need to bring their computers to Panthip to have them fixed by lowly-paid primary-school-only guys? Because those Panthip guys learned how to do what they do by practise, and they love doing their job! I'm just like that, no degree, but i need no "engineer" for anything, and my english isn't all that bad either tough i never been to the U.K. nor tge U.S.A. and the last time i met an english teacher was in grade 10, some 15 years ago. PRACTISE rules!)

Regards....

Thanh

[Scott]

nightowl: I agree with your post, but they really can't just revoke a passport until there is either a conviction or some indication that the crime is truly serious. In California (as in other places), many things qualify as child pornography that aren't what most people think of as "pornography." Also, it needs to be substantiated that it was he, in fact, whose computer it was and he who downloaded them etc.

This is being nitpicky, but the point is, that yes, new places must check. People have lots of ways of sneaking out of countries. They always have.

[Margo]

I fully support ensuring teachers are properly qualified before they come to Thailand, or any other country for that matter, to teach. Anyone who argues to the contrary is not qualified and is basing their comment on self interest. I am married to a Thai government official and even I have to be screened by foreign ministry officials to work in my profession when we return to the country from postings abroad that the Thai government has sent us on. I have no problem with that at all. It ensures professional integrity. I certainly do not want my children taught by unqualified teachers. While I agree that experience may make up for an academic qualification, the fact is that schools world over - with the exception of a few developing countries - require them. Those with experience can undertake distance learning to acquire them.

[jackmuu]

It is about time this was regulated. It is no wonder that the Thai standard of education is so poor when these bogus individuals are passing themselves off as teachers. An example, some of the so called English teachers I have met can't even speak Thai, how the hel_l can you explain something effectively to a non English speaker if you don't speak the native tongue? You can't. You can muddle through but the student's level of education will suffer.

I speak, read and write Thai and am a native English speaker, does that qualify me to teach? Of course not, you need the proper qualifications. Not to mention the fact that in most societies teachers are supposed to set examples to students, you can't do that when you are a fake.

I'd be pretty miffed if I had spent years and lots of money training to do my job and some Walter Mitty came in and blagged his way in.

These pretenders give ex pats a bad name.

Go home, get training, come back when you are a real teacher please, it will be better for all in the long run.

[tracer0]

It is a common suggestion, but one that is really a non-starter with me. I have no finance, I currently have three jobs, a wife and a child to care for plus a mortgage. Where I would find the time (at least three years at the last count) I do not know.

And all this for what is, arguably, a relatively poorly paid profession of which I have already spent nearly three years in Thailand doing perfectly well. I fail to see what benefit a degree qualification would give me in my teaching in Thailand, apart from your observation of better compensation.

My experience suggested otherwise. My attitude, professional approach and 'can do' ability seemed to 'open doors' to some surprising teaching opportunities that were well paid, while they lasted.

Perhaps I'll just have to remain in Britain, or perhaps try my luck in more 'frontier' countries like Laos, Cambodia, or, heaven forbid, Burma!

Laulen

You may be pleasantly surprised by English speaking Laos ladies as can be found in some bars here in Phuket as they speak better English then many Thais with University degree making me say to import English Teachers from Laos as they HAVE to be better then the ones in Thailand...

by the way I would suggest kicking all illegal timeshare guys out, they multiply like cockroaches, work illegal and are a damned headache.

[tracer0]

What's a degree?

It's a piece of paper that shows that one has wasted a significant amount of time studying for some theoretical stuff which he/she will never again put to use in his/her life, a time during which money could have been earned instead of being spent, a time during which practice could have been obtained instead of theoretical "knowledge".

==============

I quite agree with that and my papers are 40 years old, sitting in one of the places where I lived and I never even worked in the subject....

========================

If i had kids, i'd prefer them to be taught the english language by a person who speaks the english language they use out there in the world. He could be a Prof.Dr.Dr. or a motor mechanic by trade, i would not care, as long as my kid would come home able to CONVERSE in english instead of just knowing how to spell words.

Look at the thais, no matter where they "studied" their english (apart from abroad).... they seem to know pretty much everything (in fact i can ask my thai boyfriend for spelling of words or meaning of other words, mind you, i'm a native of Germany)but if it comes to actually SPEAKING the language - he's lost, pronounciation bad, grammar non-existent.

The way thai kids are taught english today by all these "degree holders" makes them little more than walking dictionaries...... lots of knowledge, no idea how to use it. Bring in some street people who know how to actually talk in english instead of following text books, and get some language teaching going!

(And why do holders of master degrees in computer science need to bring their computers to Panthip to have them fixed by lowly-paid primary-school-only guys? Because those Panthip guys learned how to do what they do by practise, and they love doing their job! I'm just like that, no degree, but i need no "engineer" for anything, and my english isn't all that bad either tough i never been to the U.K. nor tge U.S.A. and the last time i met an english teacher was in grade 10, some 15 years ago. PRACTISE rules!)

Regards....

Thanh

I met a biologist, Dr from UK, and he was wondering why he never received any email...

He hadnt realised that its necessary to actually collect mail....

Having worked close to 40 years with computers in all kind of fields, I do repair and its really more remembering what may be wrong and guessing right. Hopefully more often right then wrong....

I ended up doing it as the engineer in a shop managed to turn my processor 90 degrees around and inserting it.... As there was an odd pin in the way he managed to break it off.... Reason he took it out was he could find the battery for the clock (at that time mounted under or better in a chip)