Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

[connda]

OP, can you re-state your question? I've re-read the OP and it meanders to the point of being unintelligible. I think you mean to say this, but correct me if I am wrong:

"I have friends who need to support themselves and, in some cases, their Thai spouses/children. Unfortunately, it is very hard to do here since work permits are not that easy to obtain. We love Chiang Mai and want to stay here and support the community with the skills we have to offer. What can we do?"

I've read the OP twice and it seems to be a perfectly lucid, well-thought out opinion. Imho.

Then why did you have to read it twice?

Because I'm compulsive? There's truth in that. Most TV posts I scan fairly quickly. But when the thread becomes interesting, I'll go back an read the initial Op and the more intelligently written posts and counter-posts slowly. It's just how my mind works Ms JulieM.

[Dante99]

Femi wrote "I was really wanting to find out how, and if, foreigners can make their voice heard in a collective manner in terms of requesting the Thai people/powers-that-be to take a look at those laws and say yes, perhaps they can be updated to the modern era." (copy and paste)

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

You could set up a club to pursue it, why don't you do that? Your wife would undoubtedly give you full support and liason with the Thai community, wouldn't she?

What or who is a 'non-citizen'?

Why do you want these examples? Are you saying that if something has never been done before it can't be done now or in the future? No room for new ideas and ways in the human evolution? Is human evolution dead in Asia?? Did the global and technology and communications revolution bypass Asia? Why are you limiting things to Asia?

Of course i can't give you examples, at least not without a huge research operation. So what is it you are driving at in your post?

Please clarify, so i can reverse my suspicion you are closing down debate rather than supporting, while being somewhat aggressive and condescending towards me.

funny, sad, too bad

[connda]

Femi wrote "I was really wanting to find out how, and if, foreigners can make their voice heard in a collective manner in terms of requesting the Thai people/powers-that-be to take a look at those laws and say yes, perhaps they can be updated to the modern era." (copy and paste)

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

You could set up a club to pursue it, why don't you do that? Your wife would undoubtedly give you full support and liason with the Thai community, wouldn't she?

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

Yes I can. Try La Raza in the US. Actively lobbying Congress and other legislative bodies to turn a blind-eye to Hispanics entering the US illegally. And, their lobbying efforts are pretty successful.

La Raza is short for La Raza Hispánica or The Hispanic Race.

Edited January 25, 2015 by connda

[Dante99]

Femi wrote "I was really wanting to find out how, and if, foreigners can make their voice heard in a collective manner in terms of requesting the Thai people/powers-that-be to take a look at those laws and say yes, perhaps they can be updated to the modern era." (copy and paste)

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

You could set up a club to pursue it, why don't you do that? Your wife would undoubtedly give you full support and liason with the Thai community, wouldn't she?

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

Yes I can. Try La Raza in the US. Actively lobbying Congress and other legislative bodies to turn a blind-eye to Hispanics entering the US illegally. And, their lobbying efforts are pretty successful.

La Raza is short for La Raza Hispánica or The Hispanic Race.

Thanks that fits. They have had significant success and the large citizen hispanic population probably helps their efforts.

It is interesting. Do you know of any others off hand?

[pizzachang]

The original post sounds like......'a bunch of foreigners moved to a city and decided to get together for the purposes of changing local laws and customs. The local government didn't like it, asked them to pack up and leave; resulting in local suspicion of new foreigners coming to the area.'

Some communities in the US and some other countries feel the same about similar situations in their communities. The difference is, If You Have Been Invited to live there - and didn't just arrive and set up shop. I do have some sympathy for your post but when I remind myself that I'm a guest with permission to stay, granted yearly, then the feeling goes away and I can enjoy my retirement again. No offense, by the way.

[ozyjon]

''Stop flapping your gums, you are not Thai

what do you want, if you don't like it then

get out of my house''

In saying that, (correct me if i'm wrong) but

Thailand is a country that has never been

colonized by another country, the tradition

lives on,, we want your money, we just

don't want you......open your eyes and look

around.

[carter1882]

I just went up to Chisng Mai. I tell you one thing that the foreigners there could do, become traffic wardens. The parking, traffic and clogged roads are horrendous. I am sure the Thais would give you a WP as they wouldnt want to do that job and get shouted at. The benefits to your wonderful sense of community will be splendid. So much better than musicians, yoga teachers and tai-chi instructors that are not necessary at all as there are plenty of Thais peddling that nonsense.

[chickenrunCM]

While these things stated in the original post may in 'substance' be accurate, the fact that they exist is not necessarily a 'problem.'

The laws are made for Thais. Perhaps they don't see these issues as 'problems.' Perhaps they see them as their government protecting them from foreign influence, foreign invasion of business, and foreign incursion of their culture.

Perhaps the problem isn't the problem. Perhaps the problem is 'your' attitude about these conditions.

wow, you must be high educated

so you think foreign influence is a problem for people in Tahiland? Yes of course, may be they could get a little bit more

self confidence and education, may be they could learn a little bit more to support the community, foreign influence is a good thing in every country all over the world, where would USA, Australia, UK, Europe be without fereign influence,

All Thailand is foreign made, show me anything what is older than 700 years in Thailand,

show me a building older than 250 years and still funktionable,

show me a company who made it up to be a leader in the world, or lets say in the first 50 in the world in his subject?

Thailand need so much help and influence to change the country that every Thai person has a real chance in his life.

The laws and protection are only to keep the power to a small group of people, who by the way send all their kids to the schools in country, from where they dont want any influence for the Thai peoples,

There is no thai person who made a big bussines or money on correct way, only with protection, not with work or ideas,

1 example the red bull drink, a austrian man who work in Honk Kong saw this drink and understand his pontential and bougth the license for this drink outside Thailand, and now he is one of the richest man in Europe, and the drink is

know all ower the world, this says a lot about Thai way of bussines,

and to live in Tahialnd doesnt mean tha tpeopel have to accept corruption, rassim laws or simelar things,

what about all the men who married to a thai women, who have to show 400000 baht per year, they not feel stupid the a foreign women married with a thai man doesnt have to show any Baht?

this I call discrimination but no one og the hundrets thousand men have enough bullets in their jeans to say to the ommigration NO, I have the right for the same treatment, and go to court to get a decission, everybody scares, in TV

they write how brave they are but when meet corrruption, they are the first who pay off everybody.

Thats the reason they are in tahiland because the is an easy way to go, not follow the rules.

[Dumbastheycome]

D,spite having some reservations about the term "international community" which infers an acceptance of non inclusive attitude perhaps you could investigate the legal aspects in Thailand as to "club" activities. Not "Night Clubs" but social. Perhaps under that a " Musicians Club" , Yoga Club etc. Even if to do so would require it be done in the name of a Thai then possibly the activities of a club can not be considered to be "work" regardless off nationality ? Just a thought. Can a non Thai join a local FC?

[chickenrunCM]

Farangs that wish to practice, teach or participate in the arts can do so in Chiang Mai, providing they obtain the appropriate permissions and permits according to their status and it``s completed officially and professionally, which means this has to be done on the terms of the authorities not at random by anyone that feels like it. The reasons being if that given a freehand there will be those that will abuse the system similar to those who run businesses and activities online without permits as a means of financially supporting themselves in Chiang Mai that are unable to meet the requirements of the Immigration Department.

Give foreigners the freedom to run any types of activities on a public or commercial basis and it will become abused on a grand scale, and why what you are suggesting cannot be viable.

And this is my polite way of explaining the situation.

There is no way to obtain the appropriate permissions and permits this is the problem of the treat, if you could go to an office and ask for a permission tha twould be fine but there is no way in Thailand,

and FYI it isnt illegal to run a bussines online outside Thailand, only if you run it for Thai people or companys, dont mix this!

You think you have the right because you are 50 years old or married to a Thai woman and have the 800000 Baht on bank account you can judge other people people who want to stay in Thailand, who dont have thai wife or the age or the money, that they have not the right to stay. They have the same right like you, nothing make you better, and for sure this people are better for the comunity than you who sit in his house bought on his wife name or company name (what is btw also illegal :-) Why you are not in St. Tropez, Miami, Greece, may be your money not enough for this?

We grew up with the law that every person in the world have the same rights for living, choosing family, work, food, treatment, we call it HUMAN RIGHTS

[northernjohn]

Femi wrote "I was really wanting to find out how, and if, foreigners can make their voice heard in a collective manner in terms of requesting the Thai people/powers-that-be to take a look at those laws and say yes, perhaps they can be updated to the modern era." (copy and paste)

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

You could set up a club to pursue it, why don't you do that? Your wife would undoubtedly give you full support and liason with the Thai community, wouldn't she?

Can you give us some examples where this kind of thing has been done in other Asian countries by non-citizens/foreigners, in the past 20 or so years? In any countries by non-citizens?

Yes I can. Try La Raza in the US. Actively lobbying Congress and other legislative bodies to turn a blind-eye to Hispanics entering the US illegally. And, their lobbying efforts are pretty successful.

La Raza is short for La Raza Hispánica or The Hispanic Race.

I doubt very seriously that we here in Chiang Mai could come up with the kind of money it takes to get and maintain a lobbyist.

[puukao]

I will read this thread OUTSIDE on Thailand, but once inside I wouldn't waste my time. I will bring a good bit of money to LOS, but I know I am no better than someone who has nothing. If I see Americans or non-Americans trying to sell food without a permit, or doing something I know goes against the law, I hope they get kicked out as well in the US or Thailand. Once you say "our international community"....well, I think that will make things more difficult in Thailand.

I feel very bad for people stuck in Thailand trying to make the country more westernized. this is the ultimate fail. it's too obvious when someone hides behind their insecurity by using money or 'their rules' to define other cultures.

as buddha says, 'you know what is really bothering you. you can change things and be happy. but only you can do it.' if that means go somewhere else, so be it

[dru2]

I will read this thread OUTSIDE on Thailand, but once inside I wouldn't waste my time. I will bring a good bit of money to LOS, but I know I am no better than someone who has nothing. If I see Americans or non-Americans trying to sell food without a permit, or doing something I know goes against the law, I hope they get kicked out as well in the US or Thailand. Once you say "our international community"....well, I think that will make things more difficult in Thailand.

I feel very bad for people stuck in Thailand trying to make the country more westernized. this is the ultimate fail. it's too obvious when someone hides behind their insecurity by using money or 'their rules' to define other cultures.

as buddha says, 'you know what is really bothering you. you can change things and be happy. but only you can do it.' if that means go somewhere else, so be it

Buddha said that, did he?

[northernjohn]

While these things stated in the original post may in 'substance' be accurate, the fact that they exist is not necessarily a 'problem.'

The laws are made for Thais. Perhaps they don't see these issues as 'problems.' Perhaps they see them as their government protecting them from foreign influence, foreign invasion of business, and foreign incursion of their culture.

Perhaps the problem isn't the problem. Perhaps the problem is 'your' attitude about these conditions.

wow, you must be high educated

so you think foreign influence is a problem for people in Tahiland? Yes of course, may be they could get a little bit more

self confidence and education, may be they could learn a little bit more to support the community, foreign influence is a good thing in every country all over the world, where would USA, Australia, UK, Europe be without fereign influence,

All Thailand is foreign made, show me anything what is older than 700 years in Thailand,

show me a building older than 250 years and still funktionable,

show me a company who made it up to be a leader in the world, or lets say in the first 50 in the world in his subject?

Thailand need so much help and influence to change the country that every Thai person has a real chance in his life.

The laws and protection are only to keep the power to a small group of people, who by the way send all their kids to the schools in country, from where they dont want any influence for the Thai peoples,

There is no thai person who made a big bussines or money on correct way, only with protection, not with work or ideas,

1 example the red bull drink, a austrian man who work in Honk Kong saw this drink and understand his pontential and bougth the license for this drink outside Thailand, and now he is one of the richest man in Europe, and the drink is

know all ower the world, this says a lot about Thai way of bussines,

and to live in Tahialnd doesnt mean tha tpeopel have to accept corruption, rassim laws or simelar things,

what about all the men who married to a thai women, who have to show 400000 baht per year, they not feel stupid the a foreign women married with a thai man doesnt have to show any Baht?

this I call discrimination but no one og the hundrets thousand men have enough bullets in their jeans to say to the ommigration NO, I have the right for the same treatment, and go to court to get a decission, everybody scares, in TV

they write how brave they are but when meet corrruption, they are the first who pay off everybody.

Thats the reason they are in tahiland because the is an easy way to go, not follow the rules.

That may be why you are here but don't paint us all with your inadequacies. Changing their culture will come but it does not have to be like where you come from. It has already begun and it will take time. I will not be here to see the end product. It is not a race. If you think so little of Thailand I wonder if you are even here. More like a kid looking in the window of the Candy shop with no money so he goes on a health kick about why it is not good for him while all the time he is trying to figure out where to get the money to buy some for himself.

The only thing I see to complain about at the moment for the younger people on Work Permits is I have heard that they are starting to make sure the people with them are really working. As a Farong that is OK with me as I don't want a scammers reputation to reflect on me and it will.

I am wondering if some of the posters here talking about changing laws and what not to make it easier for them are not just interested in them selves. I don't know about every one but my wife comes from a poor family. After we got together she moved her mother who had been living here and there with different kids and siblings in to her own house. She was there a month and I looked at it and told the wife get her out of there I will give you more money. Her reply was O no Mom very happy good good. She eventually moved because of the leaky roof in to a nicer place and now has 7 relatives living with her . It is crowded but for them that is not a problem. So I have learned that they are very happy with a standard of living far below what I would consider good.

I do admit I believe in education and support them in every way I can. They will find their own way to a future that is better than what they have now with out me going in and telling them what is wrong with them.

sorry to high jack your thread Fem but this fellow got me upset. Is he the type of people you are looking to help stay here? If he is even here.

[Dumbastheycome]

D,spite having some reservations about the term "international community" which infers an acceptance of non inclusive attitude perhaps you could investigate the legal aspects in Thailand as to "club" activities. Not "Night Clubs" but social. Perhaps under that a " Musicians Club" , Yoga Club etc. Even if to do so would require it be done in the name of a Thai then possibly the activities of a club can not be considered to be "work" regardless off nationality ? Just a thought. Can a non Thai join a local FC? TEnnis? Golf? Aero?

[poweratradio]

Wow! Sunday is clearly a better day to attract some real and meaningful debate and sharing of, but not necessarily agreeing to, ideas.

Thank you to everyone now contributing like this.

Thank you very much to all the many posters who have 'liked' my posts, it has given me encouragement after what was, to be frank, a rather negative experience yesterday when the first page of replies came into my OP.

I'd like to try and make a short reply that encompasses, first of all, the many points made today. Clearly i need to (as) briefly (as possible) say a bit about myself to clear up many assumptions.

• I love thailand.
• I've been here since 1991, Chiang Mai since 2002.
• On the whole i love thai people and really rate their character and natural nature.
• I am integrated and have a Thai family, and care a lot about them and the community i live in (CM).
• Chiang Mai is a top top place to be living.
• I don't want carte blanche westernisation of Thailand, or even Chiang Mai.
• My debate is specific to CM because not many other Thai towns are like CM in terms of its internationalisation. Bangkok is, but it's huge and spread out; here in CM it feels small enough to feel like a community.
• One of the outstanding features of CM is its range and diveristy of cafes, restaurants, pubs, arts places, music offerings, clubs, free time activities, and a favourite for me personally, the huge array of healthy-oriented options to indulge in. Clearly that includes being able to do yoga, tai chi, qi gong, retreats, eating great healthy food, and visiting food places where the owners have put in lots of creative thought to the design making them very satisfying places to spend time.
• And all of this is brought to us by a mix of local Thai people and farangs from all over the world. It's a top melting pot of humanity!
• Having said i don't want blanket westernisation of CM or Thailand, there are good things and good thinking and good people in western nations, and it's Thailand's and Thai people's challenge to try and pick the good bits to learn from and incorporate, and to avoid the bad bits.

And in doing that, it seems that constructive well-meaning foreigners can help them do this. And since they represent, and have helped make, the community that is CM, why not??? Debate and communication and sharing of ideas, experiences, and skills is a first-rate way of moving this process along. There are many international people living here in CM who have seen mistakes made in their home nations first hand, and would like to help stop the same errors being made here, but while allowing for the right of all human beings to make their own mistakes. After all, it's a fast way of learning in life!

A community of people is a collective of individuals all pointing in a similar direction. Change is constant as one poster said. Just because things are good today, does not mean they will remain good in the future. Citizens have to very watchful of their leaders. I see in the likes of the US and UK how, in just one or two generations, the people have unwittingly thrown away so many hard-fought freedoms which have been stolen by the corportate and political class.

I started this thread because of the certain recent happenings that have in effect attacked the artistic bent of, and the artists and cultural creatives of, CM is a negative situation in my reading of things. If the immigration department are stopping musicians, artists, and people in general who contribute to a community from expressing themselves and their positive energy, then i find it hard to sit on my hands and do nothing. But what voice can i have? Hence the thread.

I realise a nation has its laws, but one of my complaints in the OP, and which i wished to have debated, is that we operate under a set of laws that are literally archaic. They are very old and were made to satisfy a previous and no-longer-existent time. To reflect how CM has developed in the last decade or so, i believe these laws need updating. For example:

• making it very easy and quick to get permission to do volunteer work on a temporary basis
• making it very easy and quick to get permission to do workshops and short courses on a temporary basis that promote and further the positive development of locals and international citizens alike (tax can then be collected)
• allowing foreigners to get work permits that don't restict them to their workplace (easy if you are a business owner with a factory, not if you wish to do workshops, retreats in the bush, and the like)
• and allowing those who marry Thai citizens to find their work freely, just like Thai citizens

Lastly, for now, I personally come from a position where i am a member of the human race who happens to be living on the piece of rock they call Thailand. I come from the piece of rock they call England. This is our world, we are world people all members of the same species, and we should forge our world for ourselves. Stop limiting things like the old way. We are all human beings. We should all learn and live together. If i'm living on the Thailand rock and not on my home rock, why on earth should i no longer have a voice? If i'm a 'guest' of anywhere, then my host is Mother Earth. I will speak up as an Earth citizen. Thank you.

WOW ! The tree hugger heard from believing that mother earth is theirs to change no matter where they are. SUGGESTION. Become a Thai citizen run for a political position and then fight for all the changes you want but note currently you might have to join the military and achieve some rank to make any changes for the foreseeable future.. Get a life as I believe your type will never be happy no matter where they are regarding laws of any kind governing your movement. The OP should be looking for more rabble rousers and you can have a march on city hall and can even where green shirts.

Edited January 25, 2015 by poweratradio

[poweratradio]

In some countries RABBLE ROUSERS are imprisioned until they learn to not incite the masses.

[cgphuket]

Well, if one is not an old fat cat with a large bank account, they can always get a real job, live legally, and be a normal person... I am glad they crack down on the extended tourists living off mom and dads handouts and contributing nothing to the country.

[onthedarkside]

Off topic posts (non Thailand related) have been removed.

[rhinoboy]

This sounds like Left Wing Feminism , dangerous....

[elgenon]

All too much

[Ulysses G.]

All too much

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5M2GtNpPE4

[sakaew]

Not unreasonable Thailand....It's a case of "Different strokes for different folks."

You are happy with CM and don't see a need for change.

Femi Fan on the other hand, wants something more.

What he is asking for , is no more than AN OPPORTUNITY to expand his world, and those who feel inclined to join him can swing along him...and those like yourself don't need to have your lives disturbed.

Femi Fan has hit the nail on the head...if some Thai in a position of power is not getting some kind of benefit from any change, there is an inbuilt resistance to that change.....the MORE so, if the would-be initiator of that change happens to be a Filthy Farang.

And as we all know, resistance to change is alive and well in our own countries.

[femi fan]

Thank you sakaew.

Change, growth, and evolution are invetible, the only certainty in our lives before our death.

It seems many contributors on this thread are content with what they have got here in Thailand, and are resistant to any change they feel might threaten their wee world. That's okay, it's a natural instinct.

But it blocks our fulfillment as human beings.

Chiang Mai has developed rather a lot in my 12 years here, and i do recall seeing the place in 1991, so in just 20 odd years big changes. I am a human being, amongst human beings. We may have different passports, but if we live in a community then all individuals in that community have a desire to see positve things happening. Since we have been accepted to live here in Chiang Mai, then our voices will be accepted too.

Of course, if we can't speak in the right way, can't make the effort to gel with the host nation and her people, then our message will always fall on deaf ears.

But if we are respectful, contribute our ideas, then for sure the Thai people will listen. Change cannot occur until we know what options are available beyond what exists today.

Perhaps that's what gets most people's goats up on this thread, they like their new world as it is and don't want anybody to change it.

But bad luck, coz change is all around, and in our modern world it's coming faster and faster. If we embrace it we can have a voice in how it goes, if we resist it, it will happen anyway.

[femi fan]

I do admit I believe in education and support them in every way I can. They will find their own way to a future that is better than what they have now with out me going in and telling them what is wrong with them.

sorry to high jack your thread Fem but this fellow got me upset. Is he the type of people you are looking to help stay here? If he is even here.

Plenty of hijackings already! No worries.

Education is everything. But it doesn't have to be 'you are wrong in how you do things, here is our way and it's the best way, so now you can do it this way too'. in quality education it's not even about right or wrong for me. It's simply about becoming aware of what is now, what is happening now, and 'look, here, here's another kind of way, see what you think, see if you like it.'

Then the local people can decide if they like this new way, accept it, adapt it, or reject it. But if they don't hear other voices in the first place, they won't know what the other options are.

I'd prefer to speak out and be castigated, rather than keep quiet and protect the status quo. There is a bottom-up evolution going on all around the world (eg arab spring, occupy movement etc etc), and Thais are not immune to this. This evolution/revolution pits two different peoples against each other: the ruling class, and the rest of us. I have more in common with the Thai people i see every day than i ever could have with the leaders of my home nation. Passports are irrelevent to me, it's ideas and concepts from the people on the streets all over the world that will shape our near future. It's much easier now to change things if we're common citizens due to our ability to communicate with teach other.

And that includes international people coming to live and spend time here in Chiang Mai. Pointless in coming here and saying nothing by way of trying to make life better. Bad ideas will be rejected, but good ideas will be mulled over and probably taken up.

Education is key. Keeping quiet is not education. Speaking out is!

So just to answer your question, i'm not looking for this or that kind of person, i don't care about who the people are, they are all people with beating hearts and a desire to live peacefully. It's ideas that count. I'm looking for ideas on this thread! He/she came along with their own ideas, and contributed to the thread, unlike many who just came here to disparage and denigrate others.

[femi fan]

D,spite having some reservations about the term "international community" which infers an acceptance of non inclusive attitude perhaps you could investigate the legal aspects in Thailand as to "club" activities. Not "Night Clubs" but social. Perhaps under that a " Musicians Club" , Yoga Club etc. Even if to do so would require it be done in the name of a Thai then possibly the activities of a club can not be considered to be "work" regardless off nationality ? Just a thought. Can a non Thai join a local FC? TEnnis? Golf? Aero?

It really is only a term to recognise that Chiang Mai is not a Thai town with just Thai people in it, and that it contains a very large number of foreign citizens, without any political rights, and with limited rights in what work they can pursue and where. If a few basic laws could be updated, and those of us who live and work here and care about this place because we see it as home could have our voices heard a bit more, then there'd be no real need to talk about the 'international' community, rather simply the "Chiang Mai community'.

It's because we have been legally separated that i used the term. I don't like anything that splits humans up and pits them against each other. So in another way, perhaps we can evolve into 'global' communities. If we do, CM will be at the forefront of this because it really is a global community.

Yeah, sure, we can join and set up any clubs we wish to. But what if i would like to conduct workshops and short courses and make a living this way? I can't do that here, or at least, it's very difficult. I"m shortly about to investigate this through my lawyer. I'm stuck at my workplace, and i'd love to diversify in this very diversified and buzzing and creative new world of ours. I want to spread my energies outwards instead of being restricted to a particular place, space, and time to do my work. That is so 20th century! We are in the 21st century, and i'd like to put more back into the community while i'm still vaguely young enough. Enough with these archaic restrictions, updated laws please Thai Government!!

[PJcm]

Well let me add my little piece here, as a long term resident going on 38 years and a the General Manager of two companies and the Managing Director of another, maybe I can give you some insight. The Thais don't care about you, (The Farang Community} they only care about how much money or expertise you can bring to the table. All the wishful thinking will change nothing. I speak Thai fluently and over the phone my accent is almost not detectable but the prejudice shows up upon the presentation of my caucasian features. I am use to this and it rolls off my back and I make a joke of it as doing anything else would seem arrogant to a Thai. We are an aberration to them, a curiosity, a lot less so now than in the past but non the less our thinking and problem solving skills are not welcome when it steps on their culture or what they perceive as their culture. They have an inferiority complex when it comes to business and education. The don't understand the Western concept of integrity. The biggest bit of advise however is this, almost all Westerners grew up in countries with a strong Judeo Christian ethic of contrition and forgiveness. that concept is not recognized here and can only lead to a loss of face. A long ago friend once said to me that if you really want to understand This country and the ethos of Thainess, think of a 16 year old back home and what they would say when confronted when they lied. There you have it, an easy lesson that still many of you are fighting. They don't care about you, they only want your money, don't give them any money and act like they do and you can have a happy life here.

[rhinoboy]

Well put, just go along with it and stay out of the way or leave, I guess.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Thank you sakaew.

Change, growth, and evolution are invetible, the only certainty in our lives before our death.

It seems many contributors on this thread are content with what they have got here in Thailand, and are resistant to any change they feel might threaten their wee world. That's okay, it's a natural instinct.

But it blocks our fulfillment as human beings.

Chiang Mai has developed rather a lot in my 12 years here, and i do recall seeing the place in 1991, so in just 20 odd years big changes. I am a human being, amongst human beings. We may have different passports, but if we live in a community then all individuals in that community have a desire to see positve things happening. Since we have been accepted to live here in Chiang Mai, then our voices will be accepted too.

Of course, if we can't speak in the right way, can't make the effort to gel with the host nation and her people, then our message will always fall on deaf ears.

But if we are respectful, contribute our ideas, then for sure the Thai people will listen. Change cannot occur until we know what options are available beyond what exists today.

Perhaps that's what gets most people's goats up on this thread, they like their new world as it is and don't want anybody to change it.

But bad luck, coz change is all around, and in our modern world it's coming faster and faster. If we embrace it we can have a voice in how it goes, if we resist it, it will happen anyway.

How did you come to this way of thinking?

You actually understood what he meant?

I get lost every time I read something like 'speak with one voice'..

There aren't two people on this forum who can agree on as much as a hamburger. Or fish & chips. Or what football is.

It'll be the same with actual laws about foreign residents. Keep it simple and everyone will agree that less regulation is better. But then when all kinds of people from all kinds of nationalities flood the town then they go 'oh, wait'.

Edited January 26, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[quidnunc]

In some countries RABBLE ROUSERS are imprisioned until they learn to not incite the masses.

Like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Russia, etc., etc. etc.. Hooray?