New report puts Israel firmly in the dock

[Morch]

I think I would prefer to see the likes of Netanyahu defend himself before a court in The Hague than read the same old propaganda from the same posters every time anyone dares to question the IDF and their barbaric tactics.

As opposed to the same old propaganda from the same posters every time anyone dares to criticize Palestinian "civil disobedience"?

[Ulysses G.]

I hate to make comparisons between Nazis and the IDF but both have used collective punishment as a revenge.

Give the readers some credit. Anyone who reads your posts knows that you love making such false comparisons and do it frequently.

For every German killed by a Pole, 100-400 Poles were shot in retribution. This was fairly typical for the Nazis in WW II. Comparing them to the tactics of the IDF just makes you look foolish.

[Morch]

They have certainly been generous with the amount of munitions they have dropped on them.

Quite a bit thrown their way by the other side too, innit?

[cooked]

Palestine isn't really the problem, people are skirting around what is at stake here. Hamas, as well as anybody else that thinks that the Koran is a credible testimony, has a God given DUTY to 'kill de Jews'. No discussion. How would you handle a neighbour that has expressed his desire to kill you, and you have fought him off innumerable times? You only win until the next time. This is about Jihad, and if I hear one more Muslim referring to the Crusades of the past and of the supposed Crusades going on now, I will bust a gut. They are the ones that are winning a war, Israel next, then it's Turkey. Do you realise that Islam armies stood at the gates of Vienna, occupied most of Spain, and made military incursions into France? It is their duty to do so, you can't just pick out the nice bits in the Koran, which isn't worth reading anyway as you will be told you read the wrong translation or that you have to read it in the original classical Arabic to fully understand. It's all or nothing with this evil cult. Sorry if I'm ranting.

[dexterm]

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

Maybe that is because the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and have been fighting ever since. Many in their government still support terrorism and - according to their charter - one of the parties involved intends to commit genocide and destroy the Jewish nation. It is a lot easier to forgive former enemies than current ones.

Pol Pot was Cambodian, so it is pretty hard to blame the rest of the world for what he did to his own people.

That's a pretty worn out myth,UG. You always seem to resort to it when you are losing an argument.

Well, lets debunk it yet again.

The neighboring Arabs declared war after Israeli terrorist gangs had already murdered and ethnically cleansed 700,000 Palestinians such as at Deir Yassin which occurred a month before war was declared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

The 48 war was not quite the David and Goliath scenario you make it out to be. It was more like Arab lions led by donkeys. Just because the bully picks a fight and wins against a weaker opponent doesn’t make it justified.

Make that 2 Arab armies for starters. When the Arab armies did attack, they were heavily outnumbered and poorly equipped. Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army never crossed the border

Israel had bribed, with money and land, King Abdullah of Jordan (who controlled the Jordanians and Iraqis) not to move beyond the West Bank.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

[Morch]

This is the point when Internet experts that have never even set foot in the country start to decry Israelis who are against the level of abuse that the state perpetrates against Palestinian's.

Then the same keyboard warriors start writing off Israeli human rights activists as nutters - as they thrash the hell out of their laptop looking for links to prove how right they are.

Once they find said links, they post them as if it was the solemn word of the lord himself.

Making them look as idiotic as usual.

I'm on the side of Israeli human rights activists.

Well, as someone who set foot in both Israel and the future Palestine, may I point out that quite a few such internet experts equally accept any claim raised against Israel?

B'Tselem play an important role, whether one agrees with their views or not. I think some Israelis (and supporters of Israel) do not get that. Can't have government actions unchecked and free of criticism if one wishes for democracy. There could be a fair amount of discussion as to motives (which I believe to be sincere), accuracy (which could be be better) and inherent bias (which is a fact, but that goes with the territory), without going as far as discrediting their efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem

http://www.btselem.org/

A common, but misplaced, criticism often raised is that B'Tselem is focusing on Israel's actions. Well, duh....its an Israeli NGO. The criticism may be connected to the relative scarcity (putting it mildly) of similar watch-dog organizations on the Palestinian side. Obviously, this is not because all is well in Palestine, but more to do with the difficulties of operating such outfits under the conditions of current leaderships, social norms and tribal/minority mentality.

I wouldn't take everything said regarding B'Tselem on right wing websites, and by right wing politicians, for granted, of course. But then again, wouldn't also take everything appearing on B'Tselem reports as gospel. Enough balanced information on that.

[Ulysses G.]

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

Maybe that is because the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and have been fighting ever since. Many in their government still support terrorism and - according to their charter - one of the parties involved intends to commit genocide and destroy the Jewish nation. It is a lot easier to forgive former enemies than current ones.

Pol Pot was Cambodian, so it is pretty hard to blame the rest of the world for what he did to his own people.

That's a pretty worn out myth,UG.

That the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations is a well known fact. You just make yourself look ridiculous trying to deny something that is common knowledge with your usual fairy stories. Of course you have been caught posting bold-faced lies continually, with plenty of evidence to prove it, but that does not deter you from posting even more. Why is it that so many of the compulsive anti-Israeli posters have to rely on blatant lies and distorted information to make their point?

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

That is directly from the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian and - unlike your link - it actually supports my post. Why do you add links to credible sources that have nothing to do with your false claims?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

The point I am making is the Hamas rockets are aimed at sparsely populated areas and are not controlled devices.

The high tech IDF stuff can hit the centre of a building and reduce it to rubble along with occupants.

The numbers who died in the last onslaught on unarmed civilians speak for themselves.

No amount of filibuster is going to change world opinion or what is seen in newspapers and on tv news.

The majority of Israeli casualties were soldiers and on the Palestinian side civilians.

The majority of Israeli casualties were soldiers and on the Palestinian side civilians.

Hamas did not fail to cause Israeli civilian casualties for lack of trying. Israel simply places greater importance than most countries on protecting its civilians from such attacks. That Hamas efforts on this front were largely frustrated does not change their general aim.

The wholesale turning of all Palestinian casualties into civilians is disingenuous. Reports as to how casualties divide between combatants and non-combatants may vary, but there is not even one half-credible account which makes this claim. Of course, there is very little responsibility attributed to Hamas (even though this is explicitly mentioned in the B'Tselem report itself) for placing its own civilians in harms way - whether by conducting operations from within civilian areas or through not taking any passive efforts to protect the population.

[Morch]

I brought up the Pol Pot issue simply because the Khmers do not constantly refer to the terrible atrocities that occurred in their country as an indirect result of the US war in Vietnam.

I have travelled extensively over the years in Cambodia and it is really not possible,to,find anyone who did not lose relatives during the period 1975 to 79 when around 2 million people were exterminated. However they have put it behind them and do not rake it up on a regular basis to try and make the world feel guilty. The Vietnamese are the same. They suffered huge losses through US carpet bombing,napalm and Agent Orange.

In the case of the latter the deformed and disabled are everywhere.

Mans inhumanity to man knows no bounds but I think we all would imagine the Israelis would have a better understanding than most.

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

On a final note can someone please explain why. Israel has never played a part in United Nations peacekeeping operations anywhere on the planet .

My point was that the dynamics of bringing up the Nazis and the Holocaust in the context of these topics is many times reversed. A comparison (direct or otherwise) of Israel's actions to the Nazis is made, and when countered, the accusations of playing the victim card and milking the Holocaust's memory come up.

I am sure that comparison between the Jewish Holocaust and the horrors visited on the Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge is an interesting question - I just don't see how it is relevant to this discussion (as was the bringing up the Nazis to begin with).

I would agree that given their history, Israelis could ideally be expected to grow into a more tolerant and peaceful nation. That historical events and human nature made things less than perfect is what it is. While I understand the expectation, I can also see how, given the their history, the Israelis also exhibit an intense sense of being under threat, guess that part of the lesson was learned to the core.

The brutality was never one sided, it was just that Israel came on top.

As for your final attempt at a parting shot (which got little to do with the topic as well) - UN peacekeeping forces are usually picked from countries which are not involved in military conflicts, or at least this is the ideal. Furthermore, some countries do not tend to place their soldiers under foreign command (example, the USA). For many conflicts involving UN presence, including Israeli troops could prove problematic with locals. Israel does offer humanitarian and medical assistance on many occasions (recently, following the natural disaster in the Philippines). Now, does Russia, China or most Arab countries partake in UN peace keeping missions and disaster relief efforts?

[Morch]

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

Maybe that is because the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and have been fighting ever since. Many in their government still support terrorism and - according to their charter - one of the parties involved intends to commit genocide and destroy the Jewish nation. It is a lot easier to forgive former enemies than current ones.

Pol Pot was Cambodian, so it is pretty hard to blame the rest of the world for what he did to his own people.

This is a very tricky statement there - were German Jews not German citizens?

[Morch]

I hate to make comparisons between Nazis and the IDF but both have used collective punishment as a revenge.

The Nazis did it in occupied France against the Resistance.

The IDF are renowned for demolishing a whole tower block of homes if they suspect one person they are looking for has lived there.

And yet you make them on many occasions.

Were the Nazis the only army which treated the local population in occupied land with brutal ruthlessness? Of course not. The only reason that the Nazis are used as the standard comparison is for that added sensational value. And even this comparison is could be said to be questionable when delving into facts.

As for the so-called "renowned for" hyperbole example - may I suggest that you have a look at the actual report mentioned in the OP and carefully read the relevant parts dealing with what international law says about attacks carried out under such conditions. Might not be intuitive or pretty, but it is what it is.

[bkkgooner]

I am not basing my views on this one report, they are based on the history of the illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel. But as usual all the pro israelis rear there ugly heads to defend them, nothing unusual, its the great job that Israel has done with there lies and propaganda making the west believe that they are the victims, they've done a great job havent they.

Who you trying to kid? You are one of the biggest anti Semite's on this forum.

Gaza has not been occupied for over 9 years now and you are well aware of that, the context that Hamas fights for all fakestians is as fake as Fakestein itself , if Hamas cared, there would be unity government instead of consistent internal armed conflict .

Seriously? Playing the anti-semite card because someone is criticizing the Israeli army?

[Ulysses G.]

She has been reading his Israel-bashing posts for a while. I'm pretty sure that her opinion is not based on just this one.

[Harveyg]

Yep, can't wait for the one-side zionist lovers to explain that one.

So this is the kind of comment I find reprehensible. Am I, myself, too quick to judge?

Regardless of whether or not, or how much of the report may be true, the insertion of "Zionist lovers" smacks of anti semitism.

[dexterm]

However their attitude to the Palestinians since 1948 has been nothing short of brutal.

Maybe that is because the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations and tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and have been fighting ever since. Many in their government still support terrorism and - according to their charter - one of the parties involved intends to commit genocide and destroy the Jewish nation. It is a lot easier to forgive former enemies than current ones.

Pol Pot was Cambodian, so it is pretty hard to blame the rest of the world for what he did to his own people.

That's a pretty worn out myth,UG.

That the Palestinians attacked Israel with 5 Arab nations is a well known fact. You just make yourself look ridiculous trying to deny something that is common knowledge with your usual fairy stories. Of course you have been caught posting bold-faced lies continually, with plenty of evidence to prove it, but that does not deter you from posting even more. Why is it that so many of the compulsive anti-Israeli posters have to rely on blatant lies and distorted information to make their point?

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

That is directly from the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian and - unlike your link - it actually supports my post. Why do you add links to credible sources that have nothing to do with your false claims?

Well, the US would say that wouldn't they. You may as well call Israel USA's 51st state. They are thick as thieves. AIPAC or Alan Dershowitz probably wrote it for them.

For the truth about UG's myth making see http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

[metisdead]

A post containing overly derogatory slurs has been removed.

[Ulysses G.]

For the truth about UG's myth making see http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

Even your nutty sham-history website does not contradict anything I - or the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian - had to say. It is nothing but a bunch of moaning, whining and silly excuses about why the Palestinians and 5 Arab armies lost the 1948 war that they started. Do you ever read your own links?

[dexterm]

For the truth about UG's myth making see http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

Even your nutty sham-history website does not contradict anything I - or the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian - had to say. It is nothing but a bunch of moaning, whining and silly excuses about why the Palestinians and 5 Arab armies lost the 1948 war that they started. Do you ever read your own links?

My link says nothing of the kind. Your fabrication. Israel started the conflict by its mass Zionist immigration coming not as invited guests but with the intention right from the 1880s to steal the land and ethnically cleanse the existing residents, which they have successfully done. Until Israelis faces the ugly truth about their past as other colonialist countries have done, they will have no future.

The events of 47/48 were triggered by Zionist terror gangs increased ethnic cleansing.

Give me credible independent links in future. The Office of US Historian is an arm of government policy making. Look at the whitewash it makes of US involvement in Iraq, Vietnam and Congo for starters

"Because of concerns regarding declassification, the series has been criticised in the past for failing to document controversial US foreign policies in the negative light warranted"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Relations_Series

Naturally US is going to cover up any of its murky involvement with the founding of Israel,

History is the propaganda of the victors

[Ulysses G.]

For the truth about UG's myth making see http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

Even your nutty sham-history website does not contradict anything I - or the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian - had to say. It is nothing but a bunch of moaning, whining and silly excuses about why the Palestinians and 5 Arab armies lost the 1948 war that they started. Do you ever read your own links?

My link says nothing of the kind.

Of course it does and anyone can open it and see that your nutty sham-history website does not contradict anything I - or the U.S Department of State, Office of the Historian - had to say. It is another one of your red herrings. The content on that page is nothing but a bunch of moaning, whining and silly excuses about why the Palestinians and 5 Arab armies lost the 1948 war that they started.

Why the constant lies about easily verified history and links that either contradict your post completely or don't address it at all? You have proven over and over again that no one should believe anything you type, because you refuse to admit even the most obvious lies, even when you are caught red-handed

Edited January 31, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Choctastic]

"Recent reports" by some nutjob on his personal blog. Who do you think that you are fooling?

You, apparently. His source is 'Frontpage Mag', a David Horowitz pro-Israel rag which reads like the Israeli equivalent of Stormfront.

This piece on 'Christians United For Israel' doesn't need embellishment... http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/jim-fletcher/christians-unite-for-israel-in-washington/

'Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addressed the gathering, and noted his long friendship with Hagee:

“What an achievement! I salute you. You are an oasis of support for Israel, and we have no better friends than you, anywhere on the globe.”

When I heard Kemp for the first time, I wondered why he was cheerleading Israel's crimes. Now I know.

He's a religious nutjob.

[Ulysses G.]

"Recent reports" by some nutjob on his personal blog. Who do you think that you are fooling?

You, apparently. His source is 'Frontpage Mag', a David Horowitz pro-Israel rag which reads like the Israeli equivalent of Stormfront.

Wrong as usual. You are about as "credible" as dexterm. His source is a personal blog. The blog which his link leads directly to.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Choctastic]

Wrong as usual. You are about as "credible" as dexterm. His source is a personal blog. The blog which his link leads directly to.

Boy. That's weak.

[anon022]

What else is new, genocide of the Palestinians has been the main objective all along.

[Morch]

What else is new, genocide of the Palestinians has been the main objective all along.

And yet, one of the most common arguments by the Palestinians and their supporters is that they will win by virtue of demographics....

[Lissos]

What else is new, genocide of the Palestinians has been the main objective all along.

And yet, one of the most common arguments by the Palestinians and their supporters is that they will win by virtue of demographics....

Another from one of their supporters is (I quote the words of the Father of an Omani friend of mine, said to me)....

"Once Israel returns to 48 borders, she will not survive much longer" (uttered with a malicious grin, I kid you not)

I remember this every time I hear promises of cessation of hostilities if land concessions were made.