Patong is dead.

[metisdead]

Baiting posts and replies have been removed.

[NamKangMan]

There is no 'new 6 month tourist' yet. It's only a very vague proposal right now. Bit too late for some of my long stay guests (off shore workers or financially independent younger guys) who have now relocated to countries more welcoming of their money.

"who have now relocated to countries more welcoming of their money"

where?

Folks I know have gone to Cambodia and Vietnam.

Most I know moved to Pattaya, but I have met some expats in Cambodia and Vietnam, whilst on visa runs, that used to live in Thailand, and none regret their move.

In my opinion, it will be Vietnam that will take a large slice of Thailand's western tourist market, in the future.

[AJBangkok]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

[NamKangMan]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

Edited August 12, 2015 by NamKangMan

[stevenl]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

I don't agree with your general opinion regarding Vietnam in comparison to Phuket/Thailand, but would like to see the source of your claims.

You can't ask somebody to quote the sources, and in the same sentence make unattributed claims yourself. So please quote your source for the claims:

'most repeat tourists to Thailand are sex tourists', 'Phuket does not have a 60% repeat tourist rate' and 'the amount of petty theft and scams on Phuket is much worse'.

[NamKangMan]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

I don't agree with your general opinion regarding Vietnam in comparison to Phuket/Thailand, but would like to see the source of your claims.

You can't ask somebody to quote the sources, and in the same sentence make unattributed claims yourself. So please quote your source for the claims:

'most repeat tourists to Thailand are sex tourists', 'Phuket does not have a 60% repeat tourist rate' and 'the amount of petty theft and scams on Phuket is much worse'.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours, I have mine.

My "source" are my experiences and observations. I often go to Vietnam on visa runs. Sometimes, extended visa runs, to places other than Ho Chi Minh City.

Prior to settling in Phuket, I travelled throughout Vietnam, as a tourists. I have been to all of Vietnam's major tourist destinations.

stevenl, what do you base your opinion of Vietnam on? When were you last there? How long did you stay?

I asked for AJB to quote the source of his statisitics, a common request on this forum.

I will rephrase some comments for your benefit:

"In my opinion, I would suggest most of the 60% repeat tourists to Thailand, if, in fact, this figure is accurate, would be returning sex tourists."

"Petty theft and scams on Phuket are systematic. Eg. the tuk-tuk "association."

[steelepulse]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

I don't agree with your general opinion regarding Vietnam in comparison to Phuket/Thailand, but would like to see the source of your claims.

You can't ask somebody to quote the sources, and in the same sentence make unattributed claims yourself. So please quote your source for the claims:

'most repeat tourists to Thailand are sex tourists', 'Phuket does not have a 60% repeat tourist rate' and 'the amount of petty theft and scams on Phuket is much worse'.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours, I have mine.

My "source" are my experiences and observations. I often go to Vietnam on visa runs. Sometimes, extended visa runs, to places other than Ho Chi Minh City.

Prior to settling in Phuket, I travelled throughout Vietnam, as a tourists. I have been to all of Vietnam's major tourist destinations.

stevenl, what do you base your opinion of Vietnam on? When were you last there? How long did you stay?

I asked for AJB to quote the source of his statisitics, a common request on this forum.

I will rephrase some comments for your benefit:

"In my opinion, I would suggest most of the 60% repeat tourists to Thailand, if, in fact, this figure is accurate, would be returning sex tourists."

"Petty theft and scams on Phuket are systematic. Eg. the tuk-tuk "association."

Once again this begs the question, why are you in Phuket instead of beloved Vietnam? Serious question if you've traveled extensively there, think it's better there and sing it's praises, while you continue to bag on Phuket. You always give vague answers to the question, so how about some sound reasons why you choose to stay here while bestowing the virtues of somewhere you don't live.

[AJBangkok]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

The source is the Vietnam National Administration of Tourisim which is the government agency responsible for tourism. The numbers are from Q1 2013

For January to April, international tourist arrivals reached 2,414,361 visits representing a small decrease of 3.18% over the same period last year. It worries tourism officials who are concerned that (petty theft and scams mainly related to taxis at airports discourages tourists. Vietnam is weak in attracting repeat business in contrast to Thailand where over 60% of all arrivals are repeat visits and this could be attributed to scams or particularly petty theft which is prevalent in Ho Chi Minh City.

However, a more likely cause is the higher cost of holidaying in Vietnam when compared with its competitor Thailand.

VNAT updated its data on website, Thursday, sourced from the government statistics office.

I appreciate your visa run experiences in Vietnam define your opinion on things like infrastructure and tourism but I lived there for 10 years, I was involved in investment and.had numerous investments in the tourism industry, I was on the boards of 1 five star and 2 four star hotels in tourist areas. Looked at investing in hotel developments, in Nha trang, cam Rach, vung Tao. Hoi an and danang. My partner still owns a hotel in phu Quoc,

Infrastructure wise we had had investments in, toll roads, water, hydro power hospitals etc etc

[xylophone]

I took a trip out last night as I said I might, mainly to be farewell to a bar owner friend who is going back home for a while.

Whilst waiting for another friend I decided to pop into the "Higher" restaurant, just to make my acquaintance again with the manager of the place and to thank him for an excellent meal a few days ago. I can highly recommend the place and I will certainly be going back there again soon.

I also took a look inside Tao to see what was happening, but as it was only 8:30 p.m., there was nothing happening other than some bar staff sitting around the bar, probably waiting for customers.

Then off to an Italian restaurant to eat and go walkabout. A couple of friends went to the Kangaroo bar as the owner was having a birthday and it was absolutely packed, spilling out on to the road, and I would suspect that a BBQ loaded with a range of very tasty looking meats had something to do with that.

The Soi Sea Dragon Bar (fronting Bangla) was very busy and looking around, so was Bangla Road in general, and the Monsoon bar was very busy as was the NY club/bar. As a general observation, the bars lining Bangla looked to be fairly busy, yet the ones down the Sois were not and Soi crocodile looked pretty pathetic with one ladyboy dancer mincing around on the little stage, watched by no more than a handful of folk in the bars alongside of it.

Soi Freedom wasn't much better early on although it did liven up with some farangs a little later.

I had a couple of drinks with my bar owner friend who was leaving, then moved on to my Canadian friend bar owner for a chat and a drink, as well as singing a couple of songs along with the Filipino band. His was the busiest bar at that end of the Soi with around 10 customers, including four lads from Spain and a couple of folk in their 30s from the UK, plus three Japanese customers.

He commented that he had been busy for a couple of nights, and then dead for a few and said it was a bit of a rollercoaster ride but then what else can be expected in "low season".

I left at about 12:30 a.m. and headed home, but not before I had passed a really full on Monsoon and NY club/bar, full of noise and the younger set. I then decided to take a look again in Tao and was not impressed by the number of customers in there, possibly around 12 in all!

Again, even at that time Bangla was still pretty full and the fullest I have seen it in recent times.

This afternoon I was having coffee with a friend and he mentioned that he had been unable to sleep this morning so had left his hotel at about 5:45 a.m. and decided to go for a walk to the beach, and was absolutely amazed at what he saw................Monsoon was absolutely heaving as was Taipan, However on his return up Bangla Road, Monsoon was closing and the customers were spilling out onto the road, many of them looking much worse for wear and some throwing up in the street whilst others just sat around the place, and they were almost all Thais.

The same scenario was repeated outside of Taipan, although a couple of the girls looked as if they had been in fights, sporting bloody faces and black eyes, and there were people throwing up and just sitting around looking like stunned mullets..........and again they were mostly all Thais.

Perhaps the nightlife here now consists of two shifts, the farang set which tends to head home at about 2 a.m. only to have their places taken by the Thais whose places of work have closed up, for the second shift up until 6 a.m. or thereabouts??

Hearing this and putting together some observations of my recent forays out, I am in agreement with many others who say that the demographics have changed and I think that the younger set are still coming here (but in limited numbers), and they are focusing on the music bars and nightclubs, whereas the older generation who used to visit the bars, are now few and far between.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

I took a trip out last night as I said I might, mainly to be farewell to a bar owner friend who is going back home for a while.

Whilst waiting for another friend I decided to pop into the "Higher" restaurant, just to make my acquaintance again with the manager of the place and to thank him for an excellent meal a few days ago. I can highly recommend the place and I will certainly be going back there again soon.

I also took a look inside Tao to see what was happening, but as it was only 8:30 p.m., there was nothing happening other than some bar staff sitting around the bar, probably waiting for customers.

Then off to an Italian restaurant to eat and go walkabout. A couple of friends went to the Kangaroo bar as the owner was having a birthday and it was absolutely packed, spilling out on to the road, and I would suspect that a BBQ loaded with a range of very tasty looking meats had something to do with that.

The Soi Sea Dragon Bar (fronting Bangla) was very busy and looking around, so was Bangla Road in general, and the Monsoon bar was very busy as was the NY club/bar. As a general observation, the bars lining Bangla looked to be fairly busy, yet the ones down the Sois were not and Soi crocodile looked pretty pathetic with one ladyboy dancer mincing around on the little stage, watched by no more than a handful of folk in the bars alongside of it.

Soi Freedom wasn't much better early on although it did liven up with some farangs a little later.

I had a couple of drinks with my bar owner friend who was leaving, then moved on to my Canadian friend bar owner for a chat and a drink, as well as singing a couple of songs along with the Filipino band. His was the busiest bar at that end of the Soi with around 10 customers, including four lads from Spain and a couple of folk in their 30s from the UK, plus three Japanese customers.

He commented that he had been busy for a couple of nights, and then dead for a few and said it was a bit of a rollercoaster ride but then what else can be expected in "low season".

I left at about 12:30 a.m. and headed home, but not before I had passed a really full on Monsoon and NY club/bar, full of noise and the younger set. I then decided to take a look again in Tao and was not impressed by the number of customers in there, possibly around 12 in all!

Again, even at that time Bangla was still pretty full and the fullest I have seen it in recent times.

This afternoon I was having coffee with a friend and he mentioned that he had been unable to sleep this morning so had left his hotel at about 5:45 a.m. and decided to go for a walk to the beach, and was absolutely amazed at what he saw................Monsoon was absolutely heaving as was Taipan, However on his return up Bangla Road, Monsoon was closing and the customers were spilling out onto the road, many of them looking much worse for wear and some throwing up in the street whilst others just sat around the place, and they were almost all Thais.

The same scenario was repeated outside of Taipan, although a couple of the girls looked as if they had been in fights, sporting bloody faces and black eyes, and there were people throwing up and just sitting around looking like stunned mullets..........and again they were mostly all Thais.

Perhaps the nightlife here now consists of two shifts, the farang set which tends to head home at about 2 a.m. only to have their places taken by the Thais whose places of work have closed up, for the second shift up until 6 a.m. or thereabouts??

Hearing this and putting together some observations of my recent forays out, I am in agreement with many others who say that the demographics have changed and I think that the younger set are still coming here (but in limited numbers), and they are focusing on the music bars and nightclubs, whereas the older generation who used to visit the bars, are now few and far between.

Nice report. You should blog and make money for yourself as opposed to Thai visa.

Thai girlfriend before present had a girlfriend from work at the office. She arrived at my house, in old town one night in a sobbing state. Thai boyfriend had screwed around, slapped her around and then kicked her out (she has no local family). She stayed at my place in a spare bedroom and sat up most of the night talking things through with my then girl. Next day was a public holiday and so we had a barbeque. That night I suggested a trip into Bangla to watch some lady boys and cheers things up. She rode her scooter and I mine with my girl on the back (my girl was just learning to ride a bike and was scared sh!tless of the traffic on Patong hill). Did a bit of a bar hop and then ended up in one of those side bars (since closed) that had a game of pool and 6 shots of tequila for 150THB. I wasn't drinking at all but like a game of pool. So the friend ended up drinking all the shots. We were having a great old time, all sh!ts and giggles and then suddenly, at about the fifth shot, the friend starts vomiting all over herself and then passed out. Comatose. With the help of a very kind hearted ladyboy we mopped her off and tried to bring her back but no go. Anyway the bar then closed and we were pushed out the door. Here i was with the friend (who by the way is stunning) hanging off me like I was a prop forward with my tiny 40kg girl on the other side. She was rambling incoherently, vomiting, and dragging her toes behind. Dragging her up Bangla I got more than a few death stares from Thai men. We managed to get her to the paid parking over behind Tai Pan where our bikes were. I kept suggesting that I take her to the hospital and, in between vomiting on herself, she started screaming no no NOOOO at the top of her drunken lungs. More death stares from nearby Thai men. She straightened up a little after she had emptied her stomach completely but was still adamant that she would not go to the hospital. She was too drunk to pillion, my girl couldn't ride a motorbike by herself back up over Patong hill, and so I was screwed. It was peak season and so off I went to find some hotel rooms. Everything full. But eventually, with the help of a great Thai security guard (I speak good Thai) I was able to get a single room with two double beds. We dragged her there, placed her on a bed and then watched her most of the night to see was ok. We passed out at some point in the early hours, but then both I and the girl were awoken by vomiting noises. The friend had vomited all over the double bed and the nearby wall. I went out to a 7 and brought some water and some painkillers, and when she finally roused hydrated and medicated her. She scrubbed up suprisingly well (ahhh youth). When we walked out of the room about midnight there were two Aussie sexpats in adjoining rooms across the hall, they both had old fat ugly hookers in tow. They saw me with my two young pretties and flashed an ehhh well done son look. If only they knew the truth. All up a couple of games of pool cost me just short of 10,000THB.

Pfft..Bangla...give me the jungle any day.

[NamKangMan]

@ steelpulse

I am not "singing the praises" of Vietnam. I am disagreeing with AJB's assessment of Vietnam.

A serious answer, as I have said before, I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha. It's as simple as that.

I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in. Tie up 800,000 baht in a bank that pays nothing.

For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here. I do not drink everyday, and I lead an active lifestyle. I am happy here. I'm not "baging on Phuket" - I am simply calling it as I see it here.

Sure, I am vocal on this forum on the topic of public transport, but look how pathetic it is, and the reasons why. Hardly appropriate for an an advertised and marketed, "world class tourist destination."

Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want.

I have no loyalty to Phuket / Thailand, in the same way Phuket / Thailand has no loyalty to me.

I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around. They've got me on visas at the moment, but I also don't mind a small break away from Phuket, every few months.

If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving. I am one of the ones leaving, but I voted "leaving after 2 years" so I am one of the ones staying longer than others. This is mainly due to having a cheap and long lease on a decent apartment, but I only signed a long lease because I am happy here.

So, as stated before, and like many others, it's not if I leave Phuket, it's when. I have seen it change so fast in the 2 years I have lived here full time, I can only wonder of what Phuket will be like, 2 years from now, however, due to my lifestyle choices, I can sit back and watch it unfold, with minimal impact to myself.

How many more expats would leave, if they were not financially, or emotionally, tied to Phuket?

I have a choice of where to live in the region, or in the world, for that matter. Many places in the region have all of the facilities I require right now, some places do not, but may do in 2 years time. I am in no hurry to leave.

Phuket has great potential, but in my opinion, it's being sqandered away, for the benefit of a select minority here. It's one thing to lose a big slice of your tourist market, but to lose two thirds of your expats (as per the poll) it really says something about the Governance, or lack of it, here. Actually, it says more about the greed and corruption here, that people are going to the trouble of selling their property, to be able to move away.

Even under 12 months of military rule, all there is show for it on Phuket is some beach encroachment clean-up. Nothing to lure tourists back, and retain expats.

I have a "serious question" for you SP, as someone who "sings the praises" of Phuket, and one I have asked many times, perhaps you can answer it.

"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

[NamKangMan]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

The source is the Vietnam National Administration of Tourisim which is the government agency responsible for tourism. The numbers are from Q1 2013

For January to April, international tourist arrivals reached 2,414,361 visits representing a small decrease of 3.18% over the same period last year. It worries tourism officials who are concerned that (petty theft and scams mainly related to taxis at airports discourages tourists. Vietnam is weak in attracting repeat business in contrast to Thailand where over 60% of all arrivals are repeat visits and this could be attributed to scams or particularly petty theft which is prevalent in Ho Chi Minh City.

However, a more likely cause is the higher cost of holidaying in Vietnam when compared with its competitor Thailand.

VNAT updated its data on website, Thursday, sourced from the government statistics office.

I appreciate your visa run experiences in Vietnam define your opinion on things like infrastructure and tourism but I lived there for 10 years, I was involved in investment and.had numerous investments in the tourism industry, I was on the boards of 1 five star and 2 four star hotels in tourist areas. Looked at investing in hotel developments, in Nha trang, cam Rach, vung Tao. Hoi an and danang. My partner still owns a hotel in phu Quoc,

Infrastructure wise we had had investments in, toll roads, water, hydro power hospitals etc etc

When were you last in Vietnam?

You do know it's "Cam Ranh" and "Vung Tau." Right?

"However, a more likely cause is the higher cost of holidaying in Vietnam when compared with its competitor Thailand." - sorry. I just don't see it. When in Ho Chi Minh City - Vietnam, I pay for accommodation, go out and drink, eat a western meal, grab a taxi - all cheaper than Phuket for comparative goods and services, and that's a major city in Vietnam.

In fairness to Phuket, I excluded transport in that cost analysis.

I have a question for you, how many of the "60% of repeat vistors" are visa runners, like myself?

I know I get counted 4 times a year.

There are hundreds of thousands of visa runners in Thailand, from Nong Kai to Hat Yai. Some must cross a boarder once a year. Some must cross a board every 3 months - 4 times a year. Some must cross a boarder every 30 days - 12 times a year. Some must cross a boarder every 14 days - 24 times a year.

Don't you think this has a MAJOR effect on "repeat visitor" statisitics?

[xylophone]

@ steelpulse

I am not "singing the praises" of Vietnam. I am disagreeing with AJB's assessment of Vietnam.

A serious answer, as I have said before, I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha. It's as simple as that.

I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in. Tie up 800,000 baht in a bank that pays nothing.

For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here. I do not drink everyday, and I lead an active lifestyle. I am happy here. I'm not "baging on Phuket" - I am simply calling it as I see it here.

Sure, I am vocal on this forum on the topic of public transport, but look how pathetic it is, and the reasons why. Hardly appropriate for an an advertised and marketed, "world class tourist destination."

Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want.

I have no loyalty to Phuket / Thailand, in the same way Phuket / Thailand has no loyalty to me.

I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around. They've got me on visas at the moment, but I also don't mind a small break away from Phuket, every few months.

If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving. I am one of the ones leaving, but I voted "leaving after 2 years" so I am one of the ones staying longer than others. This is mainly due to having a cheap and long lease on a decent apartment, but I only signed a long lease because I am happy here.

So, as stated before, and like many others, it's not if I leave Phuket, it's when. I have seen it change so fast in the 2 years I have lived here full time, I can only wonder of what Phuket will be like, 2 years from now, however, due to my lifestyle choices, I can sit back and watch it unfold, with minimal impact to myself.

How many more expats would leave, if they were not financially, or emotionally, tied to Phuket?

I have a choice of where to live in the region, or in the world, for that matter. Many places in the region have all of the facilities I require right now, some places do not, but may do in 2 years time. I am in no hurry to leave.

Phuket has great potential, but in my opinion, it's being sqandered away, for the benefit of a select minority here. It's one thing to lose a big slice of your tourist market, but to lose two thirds of your expats (as per the poll) it really says something about the Governance, or lack of it, here. Actually, it says more about the greed and corruption here, that people are going to the trouble of selling their property, to be able to move away.

Even under 12 months of military rule, all there is show for it on Phuket is some beach encroachment clean-up. Nothing to lure tourists back, and retain expats.

I have a "serious question" for you SP, as someone who "sings the praises" of Phuket, and one I have asked many times, perhaps you can answer it.

"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

I'm not buying into the "Phuket versus Vietnam" debate, however there are some very good points in this post, most of which I agree with.

These I particularly like...........

– –"Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want"..

– –"I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around".

– – "I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in.

– – "For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here".

And this one is particularly telling........ "Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

Having said that, I did buy two properties here, renovate them and sell them, in the early days, and made a profit on them both even though I realise now that I was extremely lucky to have done so.

I suppose what galls me the most amongst all of this is the fact that it is the "greed and corruption" that has ruined this place, and furthermore it is so blatant, so "in your face" and so audacious, with the perpetrators of this doing so with ease and explaining it away with one thing or another, treating you like you are simpletons. Maybe some Thais buy into this, but the vast majority of expats here see it for what it is.

I don't know what Vietnam is like because I've never been, but I do intend to travel there at some time or another.

I live with all of the "crap" that goes on here because I have an ex-GF and her daughter here whom I care for greatly and whom I financially support, seeing them quite regularly, and I have some good friends whom I have known now for almost the nine years I've lived here full-time, so leaving will be difficult, but when the crap so far outweighs the other points, then tipping point will have been reached and decisions about leaving have to be finalised.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

@ steelpulse

I am not "singing the praises" of Vietnam. I am disagreeing with AJB's assessment of Vietnam.

A serious answer, as I have said before, I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha. It's as simple as that.

I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in. Tie up 800,000 baht in a bank that pays nothing.

For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here. I do not drink everyday, and I lead an active lifestyle. I am happy here. I'm not "baging on Phuket" - I am simply calling it as I see it here.

Sure, I am vocal on this forum on the topic of public transport, but look how pathetic it is, and the reasons why. Hardly appropriate for an an advertised and marketed, "world class tourist destination."

Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want.

I have no loyalty to Phuket / Thailand, in the same way Phuket / Thailand has no loyalty to me.

I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around. They've got me on visas at the moment, but I also don't mind a small break away from Phuket, every few months.

If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving. I am one of the ones leaving, but I voted "leaving after 2 years" so I am one of the ones staying longer than others. This is mainly due to having a cheap and long lease on a decent apartment, but I only signed a long lease because I am happy here.

So, as stated before, and like many others, it's not if I leave Phuket, it's when. I have seen it change so fast in the 2 years I have lived here full time, I can only wonder of what Phuket will be like, 2 years from now, however, due to my lifestyle choices, I can sit back and watch it unfold, with minimal impact to myself.

How many more expats would leave, if they were not financially, or emotionally, tied to Phuket?

I have a choice of where to live in the region, or in the world, for that matter. Many places in the region have all of the facilities I require right now, some places do not, but may do in 2 years time. I am in no hurry to leave.

Phuket has great potential, but in my opinion, it's being sqandered away, for the benefit of a select minority here. It's one thing to lose a big slice of your tourist market, but to lose two thirds of your expats (as per the poll) it really says something about the Governance, or lack of it, here. Actually, it says more about the greed and corruption here, that people are going to the trouble of selling their property, to be able to move away.

Even under 12 months of military rule, all there is show for it on Phuket is some beach encroachment clean-up. Nothing to lure tourists back, and retain expats.

I have a "serious question" for you SP, as someone who "sings the praises" of Phuket, and one I have asked many times, perhaps you can answer it.

"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

I'm not buying into the "Phuket versus Vietnam" debate, however there are some very good points in this post, most of which I agree with.

These I particularly like...........

– –"Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want"..

– –"I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around".

– – "I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in.

– – "For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here".

And this one is particularly telling........ "Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

Having said that, I did buy two properties here, renovate them and sell them, in the early days, and made a profit on them both even though I realise now that I was extremely lucky to have done so.

I suppose what galls me the most amongst all of this is the fact that it is the "greed and corruption" that has ruined this place, and furthermore it is so blatant, so "in your face" and so audacious, with the perpetrators of this doing so with ease and explaining it away with one thing or another, treating you like you are simpletons. Maybe some Thais buy into this, but the vast majority of expats here see it for what it is.

I don't know what Vietnam is like because I've never been, but I do intend to travel there at some time or another.

I live with all of the "crap" that goes on here because I have an ex-GF and her daughter here whom I care for greatly and whom I financially support, seeing them quite regularly, and I have some good friends whom I have known now for almost the nine years I've lived here full-time, so leaving will be difficult, but when the crap so far outweighs the other points, then tipping point will have been reached and decisions about leaving have to be finalised.

Love and logic are seldom good bedfellows.

[steelepulse]

>> I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha

Somehow NKM, I can't see you on the beach often, although for your last two reasons I can see it seeing as you're always talking about Patong night life.

>>If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving

Couldn't this be said about most places around the world, especially places that have expats who tend to be wanderers by nature?

>>"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

I'm pretty sure if you asked this question to people living wherever they are they would have to have a serious think about this question also. I can't think of one for Phuket, nor could I think of one for other places I've lived before. I lived in Singapore before and all my Singaporean friends that are still there bitch and moan about the place as much as people do about Phuket. It's human nature much like I see expats in Costa Rica, Belize, Spain, Panama etc. bitching about their chosen place of residence. It's not a Phuket phenomena.

One thing I agree with you on is the greed and corruption have indeed squandered what chance the island had to stay a beautiful place.

[anotheruser]

Vietnam is decades behind Thailand in tourism and even basic infrastructure. It's also more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced. Food is also more expensive except at the basic street food level,

Even the Vietnam Government tourism agency bemoans that Vietnam has only A 5% repeat tourist rate versus Thailands 60% repeat rate and cites too many scams, and petty theft as reasons along with Vietnam being more expensive for tourists than neighboring countries.

Also Vietnam doesn't have the beaches of thaland. The north is too cold, the center beaches like Da Nang and Hoi Anh have a very short whether window of a couple of months before its too wet or too cold and the southern beaches like Nha Trang and Phan Thiet are nice but way too far from Ho Chi Minh with very bad access in terms of infrastructure. Phu Quoc island is nice but very expensive and has a very unreliable air service.

I'm not saying things won't change and that they won't attract some tourists from thailand but I think it wIll take a long time before the impact is even noticeable as Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand.

I would agree Vietnam is behind he times in tourism, but "decades behind Thailand" - no way.

I totally disagree with you about Vietnam being behind with "basic infastructure." You are simply, wrong.

I totally disagree that Vietnam is "more expensive than Thailand for anything non locally sourced." In Ho Chi Minh City, on a visa run, I'll have a nice western meal for half the price, if not cheaper, than on Phuket, and that is a major city.

Please quote your socure for "repeat tourist rates." It's possible "Thailand" has a 60% repeat tourist rate, most being sex tourists, but no way does Phuket now have a 60% reapeat tourist rate.

I agree there are some "petty theft and scams" in Vietnam, but no where like on Phuket, and other Thai Islands, where it's systematic. Eg. the transport here. For a Communist country, the free market economy is very much alive and well there. There is no collusion to set prices to rip off EVERY tourist.

I accept what you say about the climate and the beaches, but for a farang, South East Asia is always hot enough for a swim.

I disagree with "bad access" to Nha Trang, which is nice. Vietnam has a budget airline with a good route map. They cover all the major tourist destinations, as does Vietnam Airlines, their national, but more expensive, carrier. See below link.

http://www.vietjetair.com/Sites/Web/en-US/Home

I agree Phu Quoc is nice, and yes, it is more expensive to other destinations in Vietnam, but still very affordable by Thailand pricing.

"Vietnam basically has more problems than Thailand." - you are joking, right???? Thailand hasn't even got a legitimate Government installed at the moment, and is very unstable, especially since I see on BBC World News today a certain VIP in Thailand is ill, again.

Vietnam offers 3 month visas, that can be extended within the country - no need to leave. No 800,000 baht in a bank, and all the other BS.

If you marry a Vietnamese National - you can get a 5 year multi-entry visa.

As of 1st July 15 - a foreigner can own land in Vietnam for 50 years, which can be sold, or inherited.

The positive list of policies for catering for tourists, and expat retirees, will grow longer and longer, rapidly, in Vietnam. Whilst Thailand, makes things more difficult, with less freedom, and with more blatant grabs for money.

Actually, if most of what you said in your post was about Cambodia, I would agree, but not Vietnam.

I predict Vietnam will take a larger share of Thailand's market, year on year, in the near future.

As indicated by LIK, it's already happening.

The source is the Vietnam National Administration of Tourisim which is the government agency responsible for tourism. The numbers are from Q1 2013

For January to April, international tourist arrivals reached 2,414,361 visits representing a small decrease of 3.18% over the same period last year. It worries tourism officials who are concerned that (petty theft and scams mainly related to taxis at airports discourages tourists. Vietnam is weak in attracting repeat business in contrast to Thailand where over 60% of all arrivals are repeat visits and this could be attributed to scams or particularly petty theft which is prevalent in Ho Chi Minh City.

However, a more likely cause is the higher cost of holidaying in Vietnam when compared with its competitor Thailand.

VNAT updated its data on website, Thursday, sourced from the government statistics office.

I appreciate your visa run experiences in Vietnam define your opinion on things like infrastructure and tourism but I lived there for 10 years, I was involved in investment and.had numerous investments in the tourism industry, I was on the boards of 1 five star and 2 four star hotels in tourist areas. Looked at investing in hotel developments, in Nha trang, cam Rach, vung Tao. Hoi an and danang. My partner still owns a hotel in phu Quoc,

Infrastructure wise we had had investments in, toll roads, water, hydro power hospitals etc etc

When were you last in Vietnam?

You do know it's "Cam Ranh" and "Vung Tau." Right?

"However, a more likely cause is the higher cost of holidaying in Vietnam when compared with its competitor Thailand." - sorry. I just don't see it. When in Ho Chi Minh City - Vietnam, I pay for accommodation, go out and drink, eat a western meal, grab a taxi - all cheaper than Phuket for comparative goods and services, and that's a major city in Vietnam.

In fairness to Phuket, I excluded transport in that cost analysis.

I have a question for you, how many of the "60% of repeat vistors" are visa runners, like myself?

I know I get counted 4 times a year.

There are hundreds of thousands of visa runners in Thailand, from Nong Kai to Hat Yai. Some must cross a boarder once a year. Some must cross a board every 3 months - 4 times a year. Some must cross a boarder every 30 days - 12 times a year. Some must cross a boarder every 14 days - 24 times a year.

Don't you think this has a MAJOR effect on "repeat visitor" statisitics?

A friend of mine works in Singapore and can come to Bangkok to work at least once a week and up to 3 times a week. He comes in on visa waivers. So he accounts for at least 100 tourist arrivals per year.

[KarenBravo]

The identity of the tourist doesn't matter. One person coming in 100 times a year for three days, is exactly the same as 100 persons coming in once a year for three days.

The figures DON'T say X amount of unique tourists entering the country.

[AJBangkok]

@ Namkengman

I was over there in June and before that in April for business as I still have an interest in my company there.

As far as my spelling goes that's my bad I didn't proof read my post. Sorry about that.

[NamKangMan]

>> I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha

Somehow NKM, I can't see you on the beach often, although for your last two reasons I can see it seeing as you're always talking about Patong night life.

>>If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving

Couldn't this be said about most places around the world, especially places that have expats who tend to be wanderers by nature?

>>"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

I'm pretty sure if you asked this question to people living wherever they are they would have to have a serious think about this question also. I can't think of one for Phuket, nor could I think of one for other places I've lived before. I lived in Singapore before and all my Singaporean friends that are still there bitch and moan about the place as much as people do about Phuket. It's human nature much like I see expats in Costa Rica, Belize, Spain, Panama etc. bitching about their chosen place of residence. It's not a Phuket phenomena.

One thing I agree with you on is the greed and corruption have indeed squandered what chance the island had to stay a beautiful place.

Your assessment of my lifestyle is incorrect, and really is just a personal attack. Just because I chose to live in Patong, rather than Rawai, doesn't mean I go out every night, get drunk, and pay a bar fine or pick up a freelancer.

"Couldn't this be said about most places around the world, especially places that have expats who tend to be wanderers by nature?" - a fair point, however, if we ran the same poll on the Pattaya, Samui, Chiang Mai, Krabi and Issan Forums - do you really thing two thirds of the expats would reply they are leaving?

Of of those who said they were leaving, how many would say they are moving to Phuket? This poll shows expats moving from Phuket, to other destinations in Thailand.

I'll take your reply to "name one positive change here" as a no response.

As far as "greed and corruption" here - do you seriously think it will decrease? If not, it can only get worse here, which will effect tourists, and expats. So, I expect Phuket to become an increasingly more unpleasant place to live.

[NamKangMan]

The identity of the tourist doesn't matter. One person coming in 100 times a year for three days, is exactly the same as 100 persons coming in once a year for three days.

The figures DON'T say X amount of unique tourists entering the country.

So, what does that tell you about Thailand's "60% repeat visitor" statistics?

[NamKangMan]

@ Namkengman

I was over there in June and before that in April for business as I still have an interest in my company there.

As far as my spelling goes that's my bad I didn't proof read my post. Sorry about that.

My main visa run is to Phnom Penh - Cambodia. I was last in Vietnam earlier this year.

I stand my post. If your comments were on Cambodia, I would agree, but I disagree with most of your assessment of Vietnam.

It's just not what I observe, experience, and spend, whilst there.

[NamKangMan]

@ steelpulse

I am not "singing the praises" of Vietnam. I am disagreeing with AJB's assessment of Vietnam.

A serious answer, as I have said before, I live on Phuket because I am here for the sun, sea, sand, seafood, snatch and singha. It's as simple as that.

I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in. Tie up 800,000 baht in a bank that pays nothing.

For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here. I do not drink everyday, and I lead an active lifestyle. I am happy here. I'm not "baging on Phuket" - I am simply calling it as I see it here.

Sure, I am vocal on this forum on the topic of public transport, but look how pathetic it is, and the reasons why. Hardly appropriate for an an advertised and marketed, "world class tourist destination."

Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want.

I have no loyalty to Phuket / Thailand, in the same way Phuket / Thailand has no loyalty to me.

I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around. They've got me on visas at the moment, but I also don't mind a small break away from Phuket, every few months.

If you look at the poll in the other thread running, 22 expats are staying, and 54 are leaving. I am one of the ones leaving, but I voted "leaving after 2 years" so I am one of the ones staying longer than others. This is mainly due to having a cheap and long lease on a decent apartment, but I only signed a long lease because I am happy here.

So, as stated before, and like many others, it's not if I leave Phuket, it's when. I have seen it change so fast in the 2 years I have lived here full time, I can only wonder of what Phuket will be like, 2 years from now, however, due to my lifestyle choices, I can sit back and watch it unfold, with minimal impact to myself.

How many more expats would leave, if they were not financially, or emotionally, tied to Phuket?

I have a choice of where to live in the region, or in the world, for that matter. Many places in the region have all of the facilities I require right now, some places do not, but may do in 2 years time. I am in no hurry to leave.

Phuket has great potential, but in my opinion, it's being sqandered away, for the benefit of a select minority here. It's one thing to lose a big slice of your tourist market, but to lose two thirds of your expats (as per the poll) it really says something about the Governance, or lack of it, here. Actually, it says more about the greed and corruption here, that people are going to the trouble of selling their property, to be able to move away.

Even under 12 months of military rule, all there is show for it on Phuket is some beach encroachment clean-up. Nothing to lure tourists back, and retain expats.

I have a "serious question" for you SP, as someone who "sings the praises" of Phuket, and one I have asked many times, perhaps you can answer it.

"Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

I'm not buying into the "Phuket versus Vietnam" debate, however there are some very good points in this post, most of which I agree with.

These I particularly like...........

– –"Looking at the direction Phuket is heading in, I take great relief in the fact I can sell my motorbike, give away a few appliances, pack my bag, and head straight to the airport, anytime I want"..

– –"I make Phuket / Thailand work for me - not the other way around".

– – "I am not living here to start a relationship with a prostitute. Adopt a family in Issan. Buy a property I can not own. Buy a business I can not work in.

– – "For this reason, I have no "sour grapes" living on Phuket, or in Thailand. I have never sent money for a "sick buffalo" or lost money in business or property here".

And this one is particularly telling........ "Name one positive change that has been implemented on Phuket, in recent times, for the benefit of tourists, expats, and locals?"

Having said that, I did buy two properties here, renovate them and sell them, in the early days, and made a profit on them both even though I realise now that I was extremely lucky to have done so.

I suppose what galls me the most amongst all of this is the fact that it is the "greed and corruption" that has ruined this place, and furthermore it is so blatant, so "in your face" and so audacious, with the perpetrators of this doing so with ease and explaining it away with one thing or another, treating you like you are simpletons. Maybe some Thais buy into this, but the vast majority of expats here see it for what it is.

I don't know what Vietnam is like because I've never been, but I do intend to travel there at some time or another.

I live with all of the "crap" that goes on here because I have an ex-GF and her daughter here whom I care for greatly and whom I financially support, seeing them quite regularly, and I have some good friends whom I have known now for almost the nine years I've lived here full-time, so leaving will be difficult, but when the crap so far outweighs the other points, then tipping point will have been reached and decisions about leaving have to be finalised.

I did not wish to start a "Phuket v Vietnam" debate. I simply disagreed with AJB's assessment of Vietnam.

I agree with what you say in that corruption is "so in your face." The Thai Army rolled into town and, really, it's just business as usual for the corrupt and connected here.

They may treat other Thai's as their money making slaves, or "simpletons" as you put it, but I have a choice whether to be treated that way, or seek a better environment in which to reside. An environment with more law and order, better infastructure, and friendlier people.

"but when the crap so far outweighs the other points" - I don't see "the crap" as decreasing, so how long do you give Phuket?

[NamKangMan]

I took a trip out last night as I said I might, mainly to be farewell to a bar owner friend who is going back home for a while.

Whilst waiting for another friend I decided to pop into the "Higher" restaurant, just to make my acquaintance again with the manager of the place and to thank him for an excellent meal a few days ago. I can highly recommend the place and I will certainly be going back there again soon.

I also took a look inside Tao to see what was happening, but as it was only 8:30 p.m., there was nothing happening other than some bar staff sitting around the bar, probably waiting for customers.

Then off to an Italian restaurant to eat and go walkabout. A couple of friends went to the Kangaroo bar as the owner was having a birthday and it was absolutely packed, spilling out on to the road, and I would suspect that a BBQ loaded with a range of very tasty looking meats had something to do with that.

The Soi Sea Dragon Bar (fronting Bangla) was very busy and looking around, so was Bangla Road in general, and the Monsoon bar was very busy as was the NY club/bar. As a general observation, the bars lining Bangla looked to be fairly busy, yet the ones down the Sois were not and Soi crocodile looked pretty pathetic with one ladyboy dancer mincing around on the little stage, watched by no more than a handful of folk in the bars alongside of it.

Soi Freedom wasn't much better early on although it did liven up with some farangs a little later.

I had a couple of drinks with my bar owner friend who was leaving, then moved on to my Canadian friend bar owner for a chat and a drink, as well as singing a couple of songs along with the Filipino band. His was the busiest bar at that end of the Soi with around 10 customers, including four lads from Spain and a couple of folk in their 30s from the UK, plus three Japanese customers.

He commented that he had been busy for a couple of nights, and then dead for a few and said it was a bit of a rollercoaster ride but then what else can be expected in "low season".

I left at about 12:30 a.m. and headed home, but not before I had passed a really full on Monsoon and NY club/bar, full of noise and the younger set. I then decided to take a look again in Tao and was not impressed by the number of customers in there, possibly around 12 in all!

Again, even at that time Bangla was still pretty full and the fullest I have seen it in recent times.

This afternoon I was having coffee with a friend and he mentioned that he had been unable to sleep this morning so had left his hotel at about 5:45 a.m. and decided to go for a walk to the beach, and was absolutely amazed at what he saw................Monsoon was absolutely heaving as was Taipan, However on his return up Bangla Road, Monsoon was closing and the customers were spilling out onto the road, many of them looking much worse for wear and some throwing up in the street whilst others just sat around the place, and they were almost all Thais.

The same scenario was repeated outside of Taipan, although a couple of the girls looked as if they had been in fights, sporting bloody faces and black eyes, and there were people throwing up and just sitting around looking like stunned mullets..........and again they were mostly all Thais.

Perhaps the nightlife here now consists of two shifts, the farang set which tends to head home at about 2 a.m. only to have their places taken by the Thais whose places of work have closed up, for the second shift up until 6 a.m. or thereabouts??

Hearing this and putting together some observations of my recent forays out, I am in agreement with many others who say that the demographics have changed and I think that the younger set are still coming here (but in limited numbers), and they are focusing on the music bars and nightclubs, whereas the older generation who used to visit the bars, are now few and far between.

You would have to question whether it's profitable to remain open between 3am and 6am, especially if Thai's are the main customers at that time.

I would suggest, a lot of those still out at that time are on a substance, other than alcohol, especially the Thai's.

They can't all be shift workers, finishing at 2am, and having a drink after work.

Based on your friend's observations, I would not be surprised if there is a major incident there one night / morning.

Edited August 14, 2015 by NamKangMan

[SooKee]

I'm not buying into the "Phuket versus Vietnam" debate, however there are some very good points in this post, most of which I agree with.

Likewise re not buying in to the Phuket vs Vietnam debate. Primarily because, fascinating though all the information might be, the topic of this thread is 'Patong is dead'. Not Phuket vs Vietnam.

[LeungKen]

Please can we keep this thread on topic.

If someone wants to compare Phuket with somewhere else please open the appropriate thread.

(As I have just taken over as a Mod in this Phuket forum would you please make my job easier and follow the forum rules & guidelines. Thanks in anticipation)

[xylophone]

Quote NKM: " I don't see "the crap" as decreasing, so how long do you give Phuket?"

And, "They can't all be shift workers, finishing at 2am, and having a drink after work".

As for the first quote, that is difficult to say for someone like me who is pretty settled here for reasons I have mentioned before, and at my age, I'm not sure that I want to uproot yet again leaving behind another set of friends. So it would have to be something drastic to make me leave, because a lot of the "crap" that goes on I have chosen to ignore and not let it get the better of me.

I wasn't meaning they were "shift workers" per se, but the bar workers who start their work at 7 p.m. and finish around 2 or 3 a.m. before heading off to the nightclubs/music bars. And I don't think one can ever underestimate the the capability of these Thai folk to be able to lay their hands on some money from somewhere, after all even the most "broke" Thai girls seem to be able to buy the latest iPhone or whatever whenever they want!!

[xylophone]

Friday evening saw me venture out yet again, this time mainly because I wanted to enjoy a Paella at a Guesthouse in Likit Plaza (this consists of a couple of joined side roads, off the new Middle Road and just before the site that was going to be Ace condominiums).

This Guesthouse is called Philippe Guesthouse and was co-owned by a French guy and his Thai wife, Wanee, although he has since departed the scene back to France and Wanee now runs the place and cooks a mean Paella. There were eight other people in the little restaurant and bar so it was not that busy and I don't believe the guest house was enjoying a great occupancy rate either.

As if to highlight the disparity of the place, a 50 room hotel opposite, was closed and another one round the corner was all but closed. Yet the very large Andakira Hotel was busy with five coachloads of Chinese tourists arriving whilst I was there, plus numerous taxis and minivans.

After enjoying the food, it was off to Bangla and it was very lively, as it was the other evening with the bars fronting Bangla being quite crowded, and yet again the bars in the adjoining Sois not doing so well, although better than the last visit. And this time there were two lady boys mincing around on the little stage in front of Soi Crocodile, but no change in the number of punters watching them, about a handful.

Again, Monsoon and NY bar were heaving and Heroes bar (With live music) was busy as was Smiley bar, although not until around midnight.

I didn't stay out late and as I was making my way home, I did notice that Bangla was still busy at about 12:30 a.m. and I couldn't understand that why suddenly on the last two visits, the bars had seemed to be a lot busier and even Soi Freedom was enjoying more farangs than before.........then it dawned on me that we are now in the middle of a northern hemisphere summer holiday season and as has always been the case in the past, there is a blip in the number of tourists visiting from there and also from parts of Australia to get away from what they call "winter".

So as one poster has said, "Bangla Road is not all of Patong" and they are right however it has always been a bit of a barometer as to how things are going in Patong in general, so it would be fair to say that Bangla Road (on the last two showings) is not absolutely dead, but those areas on the periphery of Patong (Nanai Road for example) are certainly suffering and look to be in their death throes.

I'm not stating anything that has not already been said, however I am certain that this coming "high season" will break a lot of businesses here, certainly the small and medium-sized ones, and even possibly a few larger ones.

[AJBangkok]

You would think if the businesses could survive the low season then they definitely should survive the high season as even if if numbers of non chinese tourists are down in the high season there will still be more westerners here in high season there than there are now. Perhaps we will see less businesses staffing up early on and a marked drop in service initially in the high season as owners may be gun shy of spending money until they see how the season will shape up.

That scenario itself creates a negative feedback loop as if a traveller arrives and leaves in the early part of the season and is subject to bad service then they are less likely to return.

[Rimmer]

Some off topic posts have been removed, Further speculation about who a member is or was in a previous life ls off topic and will be removed. The topic under discussion is 'Patong is dead'. Thank you

A post discussing moderation has also been removed

[grumpyoldman]

Long live Suzie Wong's !!