Moobaan management and monthly fees?

[dragonfly94]

We moved here two years ago and the pay up front fees have been released to the committee, and they are quickly getting through it on stuff like security and cctv. They are doing a pretty good job but the problem will arise when houses have to start paying a monthly fee, ours will need to be at least 500 a month which is fair. As I understand it these fees are not actually legally enforceable is this correct?

From what i have seen at other places you get the non payers from the start, that increases, then the services have to get cut and estates can end up with no security and the minimum of services like lighting and garbage collection. The estate then goes downhill and property is worth less, but many Thais don't seem to mind and a minority, but a lethal one just will not pay no matter how rich. I know one friend lives on a small up market development where the monthly charge is 10k a month, even millionaires Thais who live there will not pay and the fountains are mouldy and turned off.

Why are the service charges not legally enforceable? the mrs is president of our committee but even she does not know and is packing it in- too much of a headache trying to please everyone, i.e. man complains they put in too many speed humps and is unhappy he does not have one outside his house, another claims speed bumps damaged car and wants compo, another not enough lighting, others too much lighting! They all want a big childrens day event then complain money was wasted on it, if they can't run an estate is it any wonder they can't run a country.

Edited February 3, 2015 by dragonfly94

[Delight]

Condominiums are controlled by the Condo Act. This is designed to give co -owner protection.

Thailand was forced to introduce such legislation -Condition of an IMF loan many years ago.

No Thai Gov. has been put under that same pressure for similar legislation in relation to walled estates.

As a consequence no specific legislation exists.

It may well be that other legislation may exist in the Civil Laws.

Does it exist and has it got any real power-I do not know.

Suggest that you Blog 'Ask the Lawyer' forum

[dragonfly94]

we used to live in a (cheap) condo complex and the services were top class, moobaans seem to be another matter!

[Delight]

Suspect that the following would occur if there was not a Condo Act:

1) Only 50% would pay the fees.

2) The 1^st floor occupiers would not wish to contribute to lift and roof maintenance.

3) Those who lived there would be keen on aesthetic improvements. Those who only rent out would not be interested.

4) The pool water would be stagnant.

5) Security would not exist.

6) Corridor walls would have a mismatched selection of owner installed windows

7) Some balconies would be modified to create extra rooms. Absolutely no consistency of design.

8) Balconies would sport satellite dishes.

9) Apartment front doors would be ‘Bullet Proof’

10) Dogs and cats everywhere.

Legislation is essential.

[dragonfly94]

so fees are only enforceable in condos and not moobaans? never knew that as there were a few that never paid at the old condo complex

[dragonfly94]

10) Dogs and cats everywhere.

Legislation is essential.

well that's a forgone conclusion anyway!

[Delight]

so fees are only enforceable in condos and not moobaans? never knew that as there were a few that never paid at the old condo complex

An old condo implies a Thai Managed condo.

Thais often cook it to suit their friends.

If no fees are paid then ultimately the condo can be sold -typically at auction.

Only a judge can authorise this.

Suspect it has never actually happened.

The only tool that you have is persuasion

[Delight]

Attached PDF file may help.

LAND DEVELOPMENT ACT B.E 2543.pdf

[dragonfly94]

Attached PDF file may help.

Surprised this is in English is there a Thai version?

[Delight]

Attached PDF file may help.

Surprised this is in English is there a Thai version?

malcolmmiddleman has just submitted a Thai Version

On this forum

[Delight]

10) Dogs and cats everywhere.

Legislation is essential.

well that's a forgone conclusion anyway!

Many co -owners resent the condo Act.

They just see opportunities for'over paid ' managers.

The condo Act demands that you employ a manger.

[KittenKong]

If no fees are paid then ultimately the condo can be sold -typically at auction.

Only a judge can authorise this.

Suspect it has never actually happened.

It has happened many times.

[KittenKong]

10) Dogs and cats everywhere.

Legislation is essential.

well that's a forgone conclusion anyway!

Many co -owners resent the condo Act.

They just see opportunities for'over paid ' managers.

The condo Act demands that you employ a manger.

It requires the building to have a Juristic Person Manager, and rightly so.

It does not require the building to have a building manager. This latter is the one that is most likely to artificially augment costs instead of doing his job and reducing them.

[mikebell]

so fees are only enforceable in condos and not moobaans? never knew that as there were a few that never paid at the old condo complex

Not so. I am on the Management Committee of a 62 house Moo Baan. We took a Thai owner to court over non-payment of service fees. It took 4 years but the owner was forced to pay back ALL fees + 10% late payment fees + something towards our legal costs - the judge ordered him to pay 150K over 10 months.

We introduced a discount scheme whereby if you pay before your due date you get a 1000 baht off. 58 owners qualified for the discount. The four that didn't were all Thai - two of them Naval officers. The one who was taken to court is again in arrears despite having a farang lodger at 26K rent per month!

We do not have a monthly scheme but an annual one - it saves on administration/confusion. We have annual audits of our books. The treasurer produces a monthly accounts sheet & an annual budget for the forthcoming year which is voted on at an AGM. We have one and a half million baht in the bank.

The estate is in Bang Saray. We have 5 security guards; a part-time office manager; road sweeping/garbage collection 3 times a week; a gym; a swimming pool maintained three times a week; and our own web-site at www.dheweepark.org

The web-site is a labour of love & contains all minutes of Committee meetings over the past 8 years in Thai/English; photos; for sale/rent column etc.

[ignis]

The moobaan not far from me was very nice in 2003, the other end they had a sports complex and a nice Swimming Pool, in 2004 a bought membership to use the Swimming Pool, became friends with a couple of Thais that lived there....

​There monthly management fees were 600 baht !! back then that was a lot I thought as all the houses are town houses, sale price of the houses back then were 889,000 baht.. both ends they had a building with always 2 or 3 Security Guards 24/7 in eash end, the place did look nice and clean

so many people did not pay, many blocks of houses were bought and rented out... so forward to present day, it is a dump, litter everywhere, couple of dumped cars since the 2011 floods, all windows smashed, the Sports Complex has been closed for years, No Security, the Management has long gone, the local Council took over the road, and now a day it is used as a short cut. so many cars, Mini Buses even big Trucks.. But in the past few weeks a lot of the empty houses are being done up [ empty since the 2011 floods]

My house is in a small Village, we have 63 detached houses, we formed a Owners committee years ago, we pay 300 baht a month, which covers odd repairs, every other month mosquito sprayers, lighting checked and cleaned 10x year, drain cleaning 1x year.... 6pm - 6am Security, 4 camera CCTV recording 24/7........ Rubbish collection we pay direct, the 2 girls come round 1x year to collect.... that is a wow, collection is 2x weeks price 20 baht per week.. everyone clean the road themselves, 3 empty houses in the Village For Sale, also get swept every day, I always do next door myself as they work in BKK leave at 4;45 am and never back before 21:00 6 days a week.. as do other in the Village

Guess would be how big is your moobaan ? if not that big, form a Owners committee sack the Management and do it yourself ???

[dragonfly94]

The moobaan not far from me was very nice in 2003, the other end they had a sports complex and a nice Swimming Pool, in 2004 a bought membership to use the Swimming Pool, became friends with a couple of Thais that lived there....

​There monthly management fees were 600 baht !! back then that was a lot I thought as all the houses are town houses, sale price of the houses back then were 889,000 baht.. both ends they had a building with always 2 or 3 Security Guards 24/7 in eash end, the place did look nice and clean

so many people did not pay, many blocks of houses were bought and rented out... so forward to present day, it is a dump, litter everywhere, couple of dumped cars since the 2011 floods, all windows smashed, the Sports Complex has been closed for years, No Security, the Management has long gone, the local Council took over the road, and now a day it is used as a short cut. so many cars, Mini Buses even big Trucks.. But in the past few weeks a lot of the empty houses are being done up [ empty since the 2011 floods]

My house is in a small Village, we have 63 detached houses, we formed a Owners committee years ago, we pay 300 baht a month, which covers odd repairs, every other month mosquito sprayers, lighting checked and cleaned 10x year, drain cleaning 1x year.... 6pm - 6am Security, 4 camera CCTV recording 24/7........ Rubbish collection we pay direct, the 2 girls come round 1x year to collect.... that is a wow, collection is 2x weeks price 20 baht per week.. everyone clean the road themselves, 3 empty houses in the Village For Sale, also get swept every day, I always do next door myself as they work in BKK leave at 4;45 am and never back before 21:00 6 days a week.. as do other in the Village

Guess would be how big is your moobaan ? if not that big, form a Owners committee sack the Management and do it yourself ???

Some good info here thanks a lot to those who replied. Our mooban is spit between twin and single houses, 700 all told. Single houses have there own committee, after only three months most resigned and disagree about how the money is being spent- small fortune of flashy spirit house, the younger people think it's a waste.

I think our side will need 120k a month to cover costs, but I can't see them collecting that much. My mrs runs our committee but they also appointed a full time manager on a decent wage, the work is certainly not 6 days a week, more like 2! It's certainly not easy dealing with all the moans and requests. Very similar to where we were before in a condo, the management were always being replaced, new security etc, people seem very shortsighted and don't seem to care if the estate goes downhill if it 'saves' they 500 baht a month!

[KittenKong]

Not so. I am on the Management Committee of a 62 house Moo Baan. We took a Thai owner to court over non-payment of service fees. It took 4 years but the owner was forced to pay back ALL fees + 10% late payment fees + something towards our legal costs - the judge ordered him to pay 150K over 10 months.

We introduced a discount scheme whereby if you pay before your due date you get a 1000 baht off. 58 owners qualified for the discount. The four that didn't were all Thai - two of them Naval officers. The one who was taken to court is again in arrears despite having a farang lodger at 26K rent per month!

We do not have a monthly scheme but an annual one - it saves on administration/confusion. We have annual audits of our books. The treasurer produces a monthly accounts sheet & an annual budget for the forthcoming year which is voted on at an AGM. We have one and a half million baht in the bank.

The estate is in Bang Saray. We have 5 security guards; a part-time office manager; road sweeping/garbage collection 3 times a week; a gym; a swimming pool maintained three times a week; and our own web-site at www.dheweepark.org

The web-site is a labour of love & contains all minutes of Committee meetings over the past 8 years in Thai/English; photos; for sale/rent column etc.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, and to enable comparison with a condo building, what is the actual yearly turnover (or budget, if you prefer) of your estate?

Does your part-time manager handle all the accounts and billing and office-work?

Do you employ the guards directly or use a company?

[mikebell]

Most houses pay around 18,000 (-1000 discount for prompt payment.) 62 houses equates to about 1.2 million.

The office lady (6 hours a week in the office but as she lives on the estate works effectively on call 24 hrs a day!) She is Mrs Fix-it; sends out bills/handles disputes with the guards/finds workman for householders.

The team of guards are self-employed. Each month we stop 400 baht from their salary. On New Year's Eve we return it all as a bonus ostensibly for them to purchase insurance for the coming year. The team has been built up over years; as one leaves/retires someone has a friend. We set them on for 3 months trial & pay them 1000 less. On satisfactory completion of probation they get the full rate. We always have a waiting list of at least one.

[KittenKong]

Most houses pay around 18,000 (-1000 discount for prompt payment.) 62 houses equates to about 1.2 million.

The office lady (6 hours a week in the office but as she lives on the estate works effectively on call 24 hrs a day!) She is Mrs Fix-it; sends out bills/handles disputes with the guards/finds workman for householders.

The team of guards are self-employed. Each month we stop 400 baht from their salary. On New Year's Eve we return it all as a bonus ostensibly for them to purchase insurance for the coming year. The team has been built up over years; as one leaves/retires someone has a friend. We set them on for 3 months trial & pay them 1000 less. On satisfactory completion of probation they get the full rate. We always have a waiting list of at least one.

Good system. Well done.

Dont think it would work in a large condo building though, but would probably suit a smaller one.

[dragonfly94]

One thing that blights lower end housing is owners turning homes into factories, warehouses to store things in and even metal workshops and the opening of 'restaurants' in and outside on the street. Seems there is no legal restriction on what you can do to houses, no enforcement of what building laws there are leading to the the most terribly constructed additions, which as in the case of BIL house next door built right onto the boundary wall. It's better as you go upmarket, but even then you have the dog and noise problems, Thai moobaan love it or leave it!

[mike324]

so fees are only enforceable in condos and not moobaans? never knew that as there were a few that never paid at the old condo complex

Not so. I am on the Management Committee of a 62 house Moo Baan. We took a Thai owner to court over non-payment of service fees. It took 4 years but the owner was forced to pay back ALL fees + 10% late payment fees + something towards our legal costs - the judge ordered him to pay 150K over 10 months.

We introduced a discount scheme whereby if you pay before your due date you get a 1000 baht off. 58 owners qualified for the discount. The four that didn't were all Thai - two of them Naval officers. The one who was taken to court is again in arrears despite having a farang lodger at 26K rent per month!

We do not have a monthly scheme but an annual one - it saves on administration/confusion. We have annual audits of our books. The treasurer produces a monthly accounts sheet & an annual budget for the forthcoming year which is voted on at an AGM. We have one and a half million baht in the bank.

The estate is in Bang Saray. We have 5 security guards; a part-time office manager; road sweeping/garbage collection 3 times a week; a gym; a swimming pool maintained three times a week; and our own web-site at www.dheweepark.org

The web-site is a labour of love & contains all minutes of Committee meetings over the past 8 years in Thai/English; photos; for sale/rent column etc.

sounds like a great community with good management.

[topt]

so fees are only enforceable in condos and not moobaans? never knew that as there were a few that never paid at the old condo complex

Not so. I am on the Management Committee of a 62 house Moo Baan. We took a Thai owner to court over non-payment of service fees. It took 4 years but the owner was forced to pay back ALL fees + 10% late payment fees + something towards our legal costs - the judge ordered him to pay 150K over 10 months.

We introduced a discount scheme whereby if you pay before your due date you get a 1000 baht off. 58 owners qualified for the discount. The four that didn't were all Thai - two of them Naval officers. The one who was taken to court is again in arrears despite having a farang lodger at 26K rent per month!

We do not have a monthly scheme but an annual one - it saves on administration/confusion. We have annual audits of our books. The treasurer produces a monthly accounts sheet & an annual budget for the forthcoming year which is voted on at an AGM. We have one and a half million baht in the bank.

The estate is in Bang Saray. We have 5 security guards; a part-time office manager; road sweeping/garbage collection 3 times a week; a gym; a swimming pool maintained three times a week; and our own web-site at www.dheweepark.org

The web-site is a labour of love & contains all minutes of Committee meetings over the past 8 years in Thai/English; photos; for sale/rent column etc.

sounds like a great community with good management.

Agreed and I think very unusual as this subject has come up a few times in the last couple of years. Normally the majority of owners are not interested enough to even attend the AGM.

mikebell - was there any particular reason why the judge awarded against the non payer? We have a Thai owner who flatly refuses to pay for the last 5 years and I keep being told there is nothing you can do other than record a lien (if that is the right word) at the land office so the property cannot be sold without the fees being paid. This is not a lot of help as the owner is unlikely to move/sell.

Our fees are also annual based on size of plot and the smallest amount is 25k baht.

[mikebell]

We hired a lawyer (for a flat fee of 50K). We withdrew services to the owner: no garbage removal; guards instructed not to open gate forcing him to get out of his car to do it himself. We attached a lien at the land office saying there was a debt attached to the property. When he moved out & tried to rent his house, prospective clients were told they would also suffer this loss of service + they could not use the pool/gym.

The judge tried to mediate where the offender offered derisory amounts but we stuck out & eventually he agreed to pay us back at 15K a month. We recovered some of our legal fees; all of our back maintenance fees + 10% late payment fees which is in our Constitution.

There must be a legal precedent in Thai law as our offender is a high ranking naval officer. I will check with our chairman on what grounds/which ruling but we now have only two problem owners - both Thai naval officers. I feel sure Prayuth would support any legal move!