Brahman

[chownah]

Do you think it would be a better investment for the future of Thailand to develop breeds that can live on poor grazing land or is it a better investment to help the farmers to develop their grazing lands? It doesn't seem like any of the big cow farmers that post here seem interested in managing herds of cows that do well on slim pickings....it seems like they are working on improving their feed regimens. Is it a double standard to promote rugged low maintenance cows and then base your livelihood on a completely different basis?

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here. If it sounds like I'm trying to accuse anyone then I'm sorry. No one here needs to be accused of anything...I'm just posing a sort of a philosphical question and a practical question together so please don't take offense.

Chownah

[JungleBiker]

RDC – Yer, you bet – it goes to show something I am a great beliver in i.e. you can take the most mixed up horrible looking cow (genetically wise) and it will go on to outperform your “best” “most expensive” carefully bred/from expensive semen milker!

You have a whole herd of Bht25K plus “specials” and then on the spur of the moment you buy some scraggy old thing at the auction for Bht10-15K and she goes on to yield more milk than all the others! It’s happened to me many times in the past RDC.

The challenge then of course is to find out just why. My belief is that its not because you have luckily stumbled across some exotic high performance genetically perfect animal, but because your “management model” (whatever it is) is something that that particular cow “tunes” into and is very comfortable with.

Yes – I agree with you 100% - skinnier cows tend to produce more in Thailand than their fatter counterparts, and you’re dead right – it’s down to environmental temp and metabolism – they suffer less in the high heat and humidity.

Tim

It seems that Tim and RC are saying their usual cattle breed (the 25K plus special) is not well adapted to the local environment. So I wonder if there is scope to develop a "better" breed - e.g. one that is better adapted to the warmer environment? I would have thought that someone in Thailand had already done this, but it seems that more breeding work needs to be done.

[RamdomChances]

Do you think it would be a better investment for the future of Thailand to develop breeds that can live on poor grazing land or is it a better investment to help the farmers to develop their grazing lands? It doesn't seem like any of the big cow farmers that post here seem interested in managing herds of cows that do well on slim pickings....it seems like they are working on improving their feed regimens. Is it a double standard to promote rugged low maintenance cows and then base your livelihood on a completely different basis?

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here. If it sounds like I'm trying to accuse anyone then I'm sorry. No one here needs to be accused of anything...I'm just posing a sort of a philosphical question and a practical question together so please don't take offense.

Chownah

I think it's got to be a bit of both and you have to look at different aspects, both tim and myself have dairy heards, for milk production you need good quality feed, the development for dairy is trying to maintain or increase that milk production while having cows that are sutible for the enviroment, rather than able to subsiste on poor feed, IMO with poor feed you are just not going to get the milk from whatever cow. So research into developing grazing either for a longer season, better food value or just quantity makes a lot of sence.

My farm is a fair size and Tim's is huge both are run as a comercial enterprise, the vast majority of farms are not run like this but as smallholdings, either beef or dairy, probaly the ave size dairy herd here is probaly about 15-25 head run as a small family buissines, I don't know of any dairy farms in my area that are self sufficent in forage as their land area is too small, most realiy on rice straw, some cut'ncarry either from their own small lot or just from the side of the road.

For "rugged and low mantinance cow's" I assume you mean for beef ? Here again I think a simular thing applies. The vast majority of beef farmers are small thai farms with small heards of beef just being fed off crop residues, cut'n'carry form the roadside and rice straw as a last resort in the hot/dry season. Here a "rugged and low mantinance cow" would be great, but lets not forget the bottom line which is producing meat. Most of the smallholding farms just breed stock for later sale to the bigger operations and feedlot guys, these people want to put meat on the bones and would have a totaly different feeding stratergy, would they even want to buy a "rugged and low mantinance cow" if it did'nt have the potential for growth. I think that producing a "rugged and low mantinance cow's" is great but if it has'nt got the potential for either beef or milk production whats the point ?

[Korat Correct]

Junglebreaker

Fine specimen your F1 Hybrid AAx photo. Can you tell me where I can see them please.

Chownah

Breed improvements in the UK by the MMB progeny tested bulls transformed the cattle industry and had an immediate response among the converted to improve pastures, permanent and short term leys. This was done to meet the needs of their more prolific animals

Remember small can be beautiful, hardy is paramount and quality always pays, which is why so many stayed with the Jersey Cow.

I am in favour of bringing back the lower input dual purpose animal too. The B&W Friesian was once considered dual purpose. The introduction of the Hereford and later the Simmental bulls to make the noted white faced beef cross was milked successfully and produced beef offspring when x'd with the terminal beef sire. This was the case in the UK up to the 70's when intensification streamlined the system, but old successes die hard and could well be the way forward in Thailand. ( The AA x would do just as well but is not so milk prolific or fast growing as the Hereford x)

Edited August 28, 2006 by Korat Correct

[Korat Correct]

This unpublished (so far) letter to the English Thai Press is in part a previous submission to the Scottish Parliament .

"Now that Mr Thaksin has completed his Northeastern tour of farming communities,I wonder if he or the opposition parties would be able to say in their next election manifesto's that they acknowledge that :- 1. Most food comes from farms.2.They will appoint a Minister of Food.3.They should recognise that food production is an issue that should not be solely regarded as a rural affair.4. Their Ministry would look at other countries to find new ways of supporting Thailands farmers.5.The WTO has failed to prevent cheap imports ( and dumping) and that Thailands negotiating position needs reviewing."

A retired farmer.

Seems the "Nation" was not sufficently concerned so I'll try the Bangkok Post later.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Korat Correct

[chownah]

RandomChances,

Thanks for the reply. I get your point and its a good one. There will always be some micro scale Thai farmers who feed their cows off of marginal lands over which the farmer has no control so the best strategy for them is to find the best cow for marginal feed since they have no control over the feed.

Good point.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

This thread about “what breed” and “how to improve”

It theory its great – in practise, it’s a bit of a no brainer…….

The definition of the “perfect cow” has little to do with the amount of milk or beef it produces. The best cow is the one that produces the most (milk or beef) for the least Baht cost.

And now a parameter that no-one has mentioned so far becomes important…..

At what point do we realise we have reached the highest yield for the least cost – what is the highest yield and what is the least cost. Both those parameters are variable and change. The closest you can get to ideal is to make comparative studies. Here’s an example:

Give 2 farmers 2 different milk cows. or – if it were possible – give both identical cows.

Farmer A’s cow that yields 40 kg p/day @ Baht 10.78 p/ kg.

Farmer B’s cow yields 27 kg p/day @ Baht 8 p/kg

Based on a farm gate price of x, say Baht12 p/kg, do the clac’s:

Farmer B’s cow is producing 30% less milk on A’s yield, but B’s profit is about 20% up and, here the real practical relivance is: Farmer B’s margin is double Farmer A’s i.e. Farmer B can absorb double the fall in farm gate prices before he starts to loose money, and he can absorb double the increase in input costs before he lasts to loose profit.

So which is better – it’s a complete no brainer.

As I said, it makes no difference if it’s the same cow in 2 different experiments (one after the other), or 2 different cows been compared, or 2 identical cows. It still stands that for a given cost the better cow is Farmer B’s.

The closest we will ever come to defining the perfect or best cow, is by comparing what a cow produces (not what it is capable of producing), versus what it costs to produce.

At some point you have to make a decision to go with what you have i.e. Even if a better breed comes along, it’s only better for a given set of conditions, and on a commercial farm it takes years to change things round.

Even if there is a better option, to change over to it and sustain the same margins could take more than 10years – like people who buy a new car because it uses less fuel. Oh yer – and just how far do they have to drive before they recover the cost difference in fuel versus what was lost by selling the car to get one that saved half a litre of fuel every 100km’s!!

I often read articals about this or that other cow which has performed so well in Uni research programmes, but in reality I could never use that cow on this farm – the theory is great, the practice is near to impossible: the changeover would takes 10 years.

The question I first ask myself is this: what is been evaluated here i.e. is a breed been developed for a given set of forage feeds, and how applicable are those forage feeds to my area/condition (can they grow and what do they cost to grow). Or are we looking at a cow that is been evaluated over time with different forages. Both studies can be used to evaluate a genetic mix, but both are valid for a set of very well defined conditions and unless those conditions can be replicated on your farm you stand a good chance of been no better off.

Then there is another consideration: the studies that are taking place now will take 15 – 20 years to filter down to farmers on a commercial scale, by which time climate changes may well have moved the goal posts.

Climate changes!!! – yup, they’re coming big time guys – the climate is changing, its getting hotter and it will get hotter and hotter in South East Asia as China fires up its economy and the coal fired power stations that got with that economic developement.

China fires up at least 1 new coal fired power station every week!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a section of the animal husbandry profession in Thailand that believes within 50 years, no matter what your dairy heard is made up of, it will need to be kept in climate controlled barns to be productive

As a commercial dairy farmer my interests and priorities lie at this stage in the farm foreseen future, not so much in breeding better genetics, but more so reducing energy input. My opinon is that commercial farmers stand to gain more on studies investigating reduced energy consumption – by far our biggest expense.

There are so many different ways of looking at the subject, and there are so many different variables that affect how studies are evaluated and there are so many economic unknowns in the future …… I wonder if indeed it is possible to improve livestock to the point that all these factors can be accommodated. Me thinks not – me thinks not, me thinks you are best off having a thorough understanding of the animal you have, and use that knowledge to manage that animal productively for the conditions you have – and use your research time investigating ways to reduce your energy costs – a benefit you will realise long before you realise the benefits of re-establishing a herd.

Tim

Edited August 28, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[C-sip-degree]

This thread about “what breed” and “how to improve”

It theory its great – in practise, it’s a bit of a no brainer…….

The definition of the “perfect cow” has little to do with the amount of milk or beef it produces. The best cow is the one that produces the most (milk or beef) for the least Baht cost.

And now a parameter that no-one has mentioned so far becomes important…..

At what point do we realise we have reached the highest yield for the least cost – what is the highest yield and what is the least cost. Both those parameters are variable and change. The closest you can get to ideal is to make comparative studies. Here’s an example:

Give 2 farmers 2 different milk cows. or – if it were possible – give both identical cows.

Farmer A’s cow that yields 40 kg p/day @ Baht 10.78 p/ kg.

Farmer B’s cow yields 27 kg p/day @ Baht 8 p/kg

Based on a farm gate price of x, say Baht12 p/kg, do the clac’s:

Farmer B’s cow is producing 30% less milk on A’s yield, but B’s profit is about 20% up and, here the real practical relivance is: Farmer B’s margin is double Farmer A’s i.e. Farmer B can absorb double the fall in farm gate prices before he starts to loose money, and he can absorb double the increase in input costs before he lasts to loose profit.

So which is better – it’s a complete no brainer.

As I said, it makes no difference if it’s the same cow in 2 different experiments (one after the other), or 2 different cows been compared, or 2 identical cows. It still stands that for a given cost the better cow is Farmer B’s.

The closest we will ever come to defining the perfect or best cow, is by comparing what a cow produces (not what it is capable of producing), versus what it costs to produce.

At some point you have to make a decision to go with what you have i.e. Even if a better breed comes along, it’s only better for a given set of conditions, and on a commercial farm it takes years to change things round.

Even if there is a better option, to change over to it and sustain the same margins could take more than 10years – like people who buy a new car because it uses less fuel. Oh yer – and just how far do they have to drive before they recover the cost difference in fuel versus what was lost by selling the car to get one that saved half a litre of fuel every 100km’s!!

I often read articals about this or that other cow which has performed so well in Uni research programmes, but in reality I could never use that cow on this farm – the theory is great, the practice is near to impossible: the changeover would takes 10 years.

The question I first ask myself is this: what is been evaluated here i.e. is a breed been developed for a given set of forage feeds, and how applicable are those forage feeds to my area/condition (can they grow and what do they cost to grow). Or are we looking at a cow that is been evaluated over time with different forages. Both studies can be used to evaluate a genetic mix, but both are valid for a set of very well defined conditions and unless those conditions can be replicated on your farm you stand a good chance of been no better off.

Then there is another consideration: the studies that are taking place now will take 15 – 20 years to filter down to farmers on a commercial scale, by which time climate changes may well have moved the goal posts.

Climate changes!!! – yup, they’re coming big time guys – the climate is changing, its getting hotter and it will get hotter and hotter in South East Asia as China fires up its economy and the coal fired power stations that got with that economic developement.

China fires up at least 1 new coal fired power station every week!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a section of the animal husbandry profession in Thailand that believes within 50 years, no matter what your dairy heard is made up of, it will need to be kept in climate controlled barns to be productive

As a commercial dairy farmer my interests and priorities lie at this stage in the farm foreseen future, not so much in breeding better genetics, but more so reducing energy input. My opinon is that commercial farmers stand to gain more on studies investigating reduced energy consumption – by far our biggest expense.

There are so many different ways of looking at the subject, and there are so many different variables that affect how studies are evaluated and there are so many economic unknowns in the future …… I wonder if indeed it is possible to improve livestock to the point that all these factors can be accommodated. Me thinks not – me thinks not, me thinks you are best off having a thorough understanding of the animal you have, and use that knowledge to manage that animal productively for the conditions you have – and use your research time investigating ways to reduce your energy costs – a benefit you will realise long before you realise the benefits of re-establishing a herd.

Tim

Tim

Well said,

I like the idea of Wind Turbines, do you have any hybrid wind systems that are available through your engineering side.

I would be interested in a unit below 50 kilowatts and or water pumping.

Cheers

Matt

[Maizefarmer]

Forty Degrees

Hybrid - in what sense? You mean wind and sunlight?

No, but I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

The largest W/Turbine I am geared up to make on a commercial basis is 12 Kw. I could double up the coils and magnets, moutning roters back to back on the same shaft I suppose, in multiples of 12 KW, but things start getting very heavy indeed.

The tower would have to be redesigned for the extra weight and the turbine blades would need to be redesigned as well for the additonal torque loading (lengthened). Optimising blade profile is a long, complicated and specialist "profession". The blades for my 12KW units I had designed in Singapore by consultants - using torque figures and wind veleocities I gave them - it's not cheap, you're looking at four 0 zeros on the end of the figure (baht) to get blades designed properly and not worth it unless the cost can be offset against loads of orders.

Nothing to stop experimenting though - so yes, can build a 50KW turbine for you, it would work, but how efficient it would be I can't say. My 12KW units offer 79% efficiency.

I run every single electrical appliance on the farm (house and workshop) off power stored in old submarine batteries - except 4 things a) the Alfa Laval compressor and vacum motors for the milking machine, and the lathe & milling machine, and welding transformer in the workshop. These 4 units are driven off a 25KVA diesel generator as they are all 3phase 460Vac, whereas the W/turbines are delta/star wired for single phase, and so is the battery power output modules - all wired for single phase.

50KW - why so much power Forty Degrees - 2 x 12Kw gives me all I need.

Do you realise the amount of money you would have to spend on batteries to store the output from a 50KW turbine for it to make sense and be viable. It's another example of theory versus practicality. I actually get asked this high power output question quite often - interest quickly wains you you start adding up the costs to regulate 50Kw output for storage in batteries - you would have to use 100 - 120KW thyrister rectifiers to get 50KW (rms) - wow, the cost of those in Thailand!!! Huge Huge money - really big money!!

In theory posssible - in practise, to do it properly - mmmmmm, big project. Much much easier to run 3 or 4 x 12KW units spread out over a couple of acres - that I could do easily, and it actually makes better sense - it gives you lots of redundancy.

I'd love to give 50KW a go, but in all honesty, its beyond what I would want to undertake on a professional basis.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Fory Degrees

I didnt read your posting correctly - you were looking for less than 50KW.

Off the shelf I can offer you 3KW, 5KW & 12KW.

Water pumping - yes hybrid with solar is always the best. No, I am not a solar specialist but can do it. The reason why I haven't solar on the itenary list is because its so expensive its not worth stocking the panels in the hope that someone will come along and buy a system. Secondly, from a business perspective, I really can't mark it up much and so profit only comes from installation.

Anyhow - looking at the issue of water: depending on the volume you need to pump and the NPSH (Net positive suction head) you can get away with a Wind powered system only - with as little as 1KW - which is my domestic figure, and provides provides us with 2Kilo/L p/day to store in a tower at 16 meters ( giving 1.3 bar pressure at the shower head: as much as you'd get from any European plumbed shower). Heating is from copper tubes lying in inverted chromed steel gutters - placed as close as one can practicaly get to the focal point of a half circle!. The "water panel" doubles up on its self, giving a toal length of 53meters of 0.5" copper tubing. Flow rate 16 meters per minute. Temp increase p/circulation 17degrees. max temp achieveable on a 26degree day = 79degree Celcius.

I done some basic clac's - for the local Amphur office in 2003, and those figures will give you an idea of whats required power wise:

With 2KW/p/hour they could irrigate gardens covering 2rai (just under 1acre) - and the conclusion was (based on average sunshine hours for Loei annuly) they could get the job done using a 3KW W/turbine suppling 10 x 80Amp 24Vdc truck battery setup, converted to 220 Vac - that would also provide enough storage to run the office lights, fridge and and 4 computers for 7 hours should they have a power faliure - after which they would have to resort back to mains line ac power.

That should give you an idea of whats PRACTICALY possible (I keep going on about whats practical don't I) with a 3KW turbine and 10 truck batteries storing a total of 800 AMPS. After or loses real efficeincy was quite high and that system would run the 220 Vac supply for 10 hours with everything switched on and consuming abround 65AMPs p/hour - Assuming a 90% plus battery charge (easily achievable up here in Isaan most days of the year).

A larger turbine will speed up the rate at which you can charge the power pack (i.e. batteries), and the size of the battery pack (AMP wise) will determine how much power you can store.

Use this rule Matt, for domestic cum office enviroments: W/Turbine average output (average, not peak) should be 100% of total consumption at any one time (i.e. all lights on, kettle on, fridge on, tele on, hi fi on, computer on, boiler/shower on) and add 60%.

That will give you a Watt or Kilowatt figure.

Multiply that figure by the number of hours you want (or expect to have that power avalible).

That gives you the TOTAL KW required.

Now take that figure and divide it by 220 (Vac). That will give you the TOTAL AMPS required.

Now go and look for the biggest batteries you can find - all of the same voltage that will add up to that last AMP figure, using Ohms law to ensure your AMPS x VOLTAGE gives you a figure the same as you more than the KW figure you calculated (before you ask - yes, I have already built into the equation a decent efficiency factor i.e. the 60% figure given earlier).

Come back to me with you figures and I'll be happy to advise/share with you what I think is the most PRACTICAL way to go about generating and storing that energy, bust as said - for a domestic cum small office enviroment I think 800 Amps @24VDC is just fine for average Thai conditions.

Tim

[chownah]

MaizeFarmer,

You wrote:

"Assuming a 90% plus battery charge (easily achievable up here in Isaan most days of the year)."

By this do you mean that EVERYWHERE in Isaan has enough wind on MOST days to take a drained battery pack and charge it to 90% plus charge. By MOST days do you mean 183 days per year minimum there will be enough wind to do a 90% charge? If so, is there any month that will have more wind and less wind....in other words, which month or months of the year will there be the least wind...which months will you be able to pump the least water.

Also, you don't state this specifically so I want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly..is it correct that the battery system you describe is not meant to power pumps for pumping water and for your installations you pump water when there is a surplus of wind and your batteries are fully charged?

Chownah

[C-sip-degree]

Fory Degrees

I didnt read your posting correctly - you were looking for less than 50KW.

Off the shelf I can offer you 3KW, 5KW & 12KW.

Water pumping - yes hybrid with solar is always the best. No, I am not a solar specialist but can do it. The reason why I haven't solar on the itenary list is because its so expensive its not worth stocking the panels in the hope that someone will come along and buy a system. Secondly, from a business perspective, I really can't mark it up much and so profit only comes from installation.

Anyhow - looking at the issue of water: depending on the volume you need to pump and the NPSH (Net positive suction head) you can get away with a Wind powered system only - with as little as 1KW - which is my domestic figure, and provides provides us with 2Kilo/L p/day to store in a tower at 16 meters ( giving 1.3 bar pressure at the shower head: as much as you'd get from any European plumbed shower). Heating is from copper tubes lying in inverted chromed steel gutters - placed as close as one can practicaly get to the focal point of a half circle!. The "water panel" doubles up on its self, giving a toal length of 53meters of 0.5" copper tubing. Flow rate 16 meters per minute. Temp increase p/circulation 17degrees. max temp achieveable on a 26degree day = 79degree Celcius.

I done some basic clac's - for the local Amphur office in 2003, and those figures will give you an idea of whats required power wise:

With 2KW/p/hour they could irrigate gardens covering 2rai (just under 1acre) - and the conclusion was (based on average sunshine hours for Loei annuly) they could get the job done using a 3KW W/turbine suppling 10 x 80Amp 24Vdc truck battery setup, converted to 220 Vac - that would also provide enough storage to run the office lights, fridge and and 4 computers for 7 hours should they have a power faliure - after which they would have to resort back to mains line ac power.

That should give you an idea of whats PRACTICALY possible (I keep going on about whats practical don't I) with a 3KW turbine and 10 truck batteries storing a total of 800 AMPS. After or loses real efficeincy was quite high and that system would run the 220 Vac supply for 10 hours with everything switched on and consuming abround 65AMPs p/hour - Assuming a 90% plus battery charge (easily achievable up here in Isaan most days of the year).

A larger turbine will speed up the rate at which you can charge the power pack (i.e. batteries), and the size of the battery pack (AMP wise) will determine how much power you can store.

Use this rule Matt, for domestic cum office enviroments: W/Turbine average output (average, not peak) should be 100% of total consumption at any one time (i.e. all lights on, kettle on, fridge on, tele on, hi fi on, computer on, boiler/shower on) and add 60%.

That will give you a Watt or Kilowatt figure.

Multiply that figure by the number of hours you want (or expect to have that power avalible).

That gives you the TOTAL KW required.

Now take that figure and divide it by 220 (Vac). That will give you the TOTAL AMPS required.

Now go and look for the biggest batteries you can find - all of the same voltage that will add up to that last AMP figure, using Ohms law to ensure your AMPS x VOLTAGE gives you a figure the same as you more than the KW figure you calculated (before you ask - yes, I have already built into the equation a decent efficiency factor i.e. the 60% figure given earlier).

Come back to me with you figures and I'll be happy to advise/share with you what I think is the most PRACTICAL way to go about generating and storing that energy, bust as said - for a domestic cum small office enviroment I think 800 Amps @24VDC is just fine for average Thai conditions.

Tim

Tim

I would only need a domestic (small) set up 800 Amps @24DC would do for a start.

The basic need is only lights at night for now @farmland.

Start up build would be x4 200 Amp truck batt's to a 1500watt inverter 24DC/220AC.

Your 3KW W/Turbine would fit into the package nicely.

I'll stay with my small genset for pumping water for now, it's set up for one and easy to use (pull start, plug in, open valve) one rai at a time job.

Would you send me the price details so i can have a think over, and or any pic/prices on farm equipment for sale through your business.

Might be better to use my email [email protected]

Thanks for your advice and time.

Matt.

[lannarebirth]

- by training I am an ag engineer and a side line to the farm is building water pump systems, higher rise ag sprayers, providing service & parts for small Iseki and Kubota tractors, and I construct small wind turbines.

Hi Tim,

Can you get English language Operator's, Parts, and Repair manuals for a Kubota L2602DT-M tractor? I found some on the internet from America but many seem to be abridged manuals. How about a front grill? TIA

Ken

[JungleBiker]

Junglebreaker

Fine specimen your F1 Hybrid AAx photo. Can you tell me where I can see them please.

Hi Korat Correct,

Attached is a side view of one of the F1 hybrids (Angus x local cattle). I have not seen them myself, I took the pictures from someone's computer screen. But these animals belong to Ubon Ratchathani University, so that's where you should go to see them. Someone at this forum has a friend at that University - perhaps he could help us find and contact the person responsibe for this breeding programme.

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH

No not EVERYWHERE – you have to have a suitable place to locate the turbine. It must b as high as possible (at least 16m above ground level and not “shaded” for a good 100m in all directions (by buildings, trees ect…. and in the case of a house up against the side of a hill you’d want to be a good 400m or more away from the hill).

What do you mean by a “drained battery pack” – do you mean drained in terms of voltage or in terms of amperage?

For the purposes of understanding what I meant when stating that a 90% charge could be achieved, I meant from an amperage drained battery, not from a voltage drained battery.

So yes – to answer your question, I do mean it’s possible to achieve a 90% charge on an amperage drained battery, and for the purposes of this discussion (i.e. using batteries to store dc power for ac supply) a drained battery is one that cannot supply the peak ac current load without a voltage drop.

In practical terms you do not want your voltage dropping at peak load to less than around 10.23Vdc from a 12Vdc power pack (absolute least been 10Vdc – if your battery gets any less than that you are quickly going to sulphate all the cell plates and ruin the battery).

The battery system I was describing can be used to power ANYTHING. It makes no difference if it’s a water pump, a light, a fridge, a TV …..whatever. Current draw is current draw – the power pack sees a load – it cares little one way or the other if it’s a pump or a light drawing that load (except perhaps on startup with a Delta wired motor as most of the cheap Thaia dn Chinese motors are, but then again, if the job is done properly the inverter will buffer that - so we're getting way out the scope of this discussion).

But in the context of the discussion and the figures I gave, I described what in my experience was practical - against a background of intended domestic usage – which as we now know, is exactly what Matt had in mind.

So back to the original question… and to put it into the words you used when you asked – yes, so long as you can site correctly, and store the power correctly (i.e. sufficient batteries for amperage and voltage) it is realistic to be able to generate enough power from a 3KW turbine to support a house on a daily basis with the weather conditions in Isaan - and to be as exact as I can, see the next paragraph:

The windiest months up here are from late September thru to early May, and for those 8 months you should be able to draw about 65% - 70% of all your power from the turbine 100% of the time, or 100% of your power 65-70% of the time. From May through to September (4 months) you should be able to get 30-35% of your power.

"Time" means the time one would expect to have the lights on in a house, the fridge running, the TV on, the computer running per day.

And now we are back to a whole set of variables i.e. what is an average house, what is average power consumption, do you use 100watt bulbs or 40 or 60watt bulbs? Do you have an electric stove, do you have an electric boiler…… and on and on it can go, which was why I gave Matt an example , but asked him to come back with something more specific so that I could be more accurate.

MATT

For the figures I you have supplied assuming a max of 1.5KW p/hour for the inverter – baring in mind the usage you have in mind – which will a) seldom be running at the max 1.5KW load (average house or not!) the inverter is capable of – if ever, and is not throughout the whole day in any case – a 3KW turbine will be able to provide enough AMPS to prevent problems from voltage drop.

I will email details to you later this week.

LANNAREBIRTH

Have English manual for the L2602DT-M – do you want a whole manual or are you looking for a certain section – can copy you the section you need by email , no prob’s but will have to post you a copy of the whole manual if you need.

Front grill – which one do you have: the early models have a grill that runs the full length of the front has holes for the lights, whereas the later ones have a lower grill section around the lights, and a higher grill section where the badge is, which is separated from the lower section by a strip of tin work that forms the front cowling.

And of course, is it grey/silver in colour or is it white?

In both cases can supply the genuine article or can supply a Chinese made “copy” – which is much cheaper.

[chownah]

MaizeFarmer,

How long do the 24v truck batteries last?...or are you using 12v batteries...I'm a bit confused because in your reply to me you talked about not draining your batteries to less than 10.23v....from this I assumed that you were using 12v batteries...Are you saying that you can drain a 24v battery to 10.23v?....this seems like a bad idea to me but I know very little about batteries and appreciate that your posts give me an opportunity to learn more. Did you ever calculate a cost per kilowatt/hour for the truck batteries? It is my understanding that the cost of battery replacement is one of the major expenses in running a system like you describe.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

CHOWNAH

I didn't have the time to run through both 12Vdc and 24Vdc examples - so I just chose 12 Vdc as an example to illlustrate the point I was making on defining "battery drainage".

For 24Vdc batteries, you start running into problems when the voltage drops below around 18.6Vdc.

I have done a basic cost analysis of their cost versus their benefits - but not a detailed long term analysis. They are absolutely worth it - nothing compares with them power density wise versus what they cost to purchase (especialy in Thailand). So long as you look after them (which in practical terms means: thou shalt not overcharge (difficult in a truck battery and with modern designed control electronics), thous shalt not charge with a sine wave (i.e. rectify the turbine output voltage properly and make sure there is no ac component in it), and lastly - thou shalt allow the voltage to drop (don't sulphate the cell plates - the usual problem in rural Thai systems).

There are several ways of looking at cost versus benefit.

They are the 2nd or 3rd most expensive component in the average alternative power system - the most expensive component been a) the turbine, then the invertor, then c) the storage batteries.

If the comparison is with ac mains - wel, then the cost versus benefit of the whole system nees to be considered. If the comparison is with a diesel generator - its a no brainer (one doesn't even have to do a cost analysis to work that out).

But however you look at it - one thing is for sure - you are going to have to store your power - and power density wise versus cost (at Thailand prices) the truck battery is your best option - unless you want to get on-line and loook for old submarine batteries (which are by far the best - I am using 2nd hand ones I purchased at a defense auction in Australia in the mid-90's and they are still as good today as the day I purchased them), then truck batteries are your best bet).

As said before, I don't mind been challenged on anything I writeup. I am glad you have found some of it useful. We are all in the same position (i.e. farmers in a far off country blah blah, blah blah....), and this forum serves as a good platform for us to share experiances and ideas. I know some of my postings are long winded, but I try to put everything I have to say into a context that that can benefited from and used - nothing else to do at 3 - 4am in the morning while monitering the milking machine!......(have a 2.4 Ghz wireless modem in a laptop with a small mobile phone yagi antenna plugged into the modem pointed towwards the house 130 yards away - works great) and if I don't know a subject (e.g. pigs, rubber, buffalo, vegies & fruit....) I defer to other forum members who do understand those subjects and have had experiance.

Tim

[lannarebirth]

LANNAREBIRTH

Have English manual for the L2602DT-M – do you want a whole manual or are you looking for a certain section – can copy you the section you need by email , no prob’s but will have to post you a copy of the whole manual if you need.

Front grill – which one do you have: the early models have a grill that runs the full length of the front has holes for the lights, whereas the later ones have a lower grill section around the lights, and a higher grill section where the badge is, which is separated from the lower section by a strip of tin work that forms the front cowling.

And of course, is it grey/silver in colour or is it white?

In both cases can supply the genuine article or can supply a Chinese made “copy” – which is much cheaper.

Hi MaizeFarmer,

Tim, I'm not sure which manual you're talking about. Do ou have one comprehensive manual that is sort of a combination of the 3? Operatpr's, Parts (showing exploded views), and repair? I have both Thai and Japanese, but they're little use to me. I think I'd like all you have on that model.

As for the grill, I'm going from memory, but I'll get a photo tomorrow. It's got 2 rectangular headlight holes at the bottom a black mesh grill w/ "sunshine" written diagonally across it and an orange rectangular frame. Dare I ask, can you get decal sets for this model?

Ken

[Maizefarmer]

LANNAREBIRTH

I thought I had answered your question and posted it - but now cant see it anywhere.

Anyway......... okay I know what your'e looking for: you are talking about the 2 section fronted model (later model) that has both a surround around the square front lights and a seperate grill located higher up - with either some writing or a badge centered init. THis top part is made of silver greyish plastic.

Yes - have got spare. The genuine article is Baht 2964, and the cheap Chinese copy is about Baht 375 - and if you want the truth - the copy is as good as the original (it goes on the Chinese made models of your tractor - which was made both in Japan and in China under the Zenoha brandname if I recall correctly - all the parts are interchangable except gearbox cogs.

Decals - nope, I have none. I can order them from Japan for you but they'll cost severa thousand Baht. You could altetrnatively use photos and take them to a graphics shop where some Thai student will proberbly be able to knock some stickers up for you in a day or so at a fraction of the cost.

The manual is an English Kubota workshop manual for the whole rnge of series 26 tractors- with diagrams, yes, parts and part numbers - its what the official dealers used in their workshops (I say used because these tractors are no longer made). For what it worth, it was almost certainly imported from Japan - broken down into parts and stuffed into a container.

Anyone else looking for a small tractor - as you come out of Bangkok heading North East towards Saraburi and Korat, just at the end of the raised motorway section, you will see for the next 20km's or so along the right hand side of the road loads of Ford, Kubota and Iseka deleares - some with literally hundreds of these small tractors parked up on their forecourts

Bargin Bargin Bargin - they will overquote you first time round by as much as 70%

Its also the place to go for rotor tillers - which are from Japan and are usually binned by the japanese farmers as soon as they have done 200/300 hours (irrespective of whether they are damaged or not) hence most are in good condition and can be picked up for around Baht10K

The rule with rotor tillers: check the blades and check you are buying a model which the dealer can offer you replacement blades for - and if you're up North/North East take a new set with you (they not expensive).

Also check you are getting a pto shaft with the tiller (bargin for one to be included if not) - and check that the splines on the tuller output haft from the gearbox match the spline on the pto shaft and that they match the splines on the pto stub located at the rear of your tractor - else you wont be able to use your new toy! Genrally for the small tractors they are all the same and match- but check in any case.

Turn the universal joint by hand - it should be stiff but will turn - a bit of slack is normal but you do not want the Universal joint turning more than about 1/3 of a turn freely (ie. until lthe blades start turning underneath) - if that is the case move on and look for another one (means the gears in the 90degree gearbox are badly worn.

Two types of small rotor tillers: some are driven from the centre, and some are driven from one end of the balde bar via a shaft that extends to a gear or pully system at one end of the tiller. The ones with a centre gearbox that drives the balde bar from a drop down gear box in the centre, are the more reliable types.

Then get on the net when you get home and find the webpage of the tiller model you have - you will see that the baldes can be removed, repositioned, turned round ect ect .... each blade configuration giving you a different tilled land profile (e.g. ridged, troughed, raised and flat, raised and rounded....). A lot of the tillers you find there even have a sticker on showing you how to lay the blades out to get various soil profiles.

Have fun.

Tim

[Nawtilus]

Out of interest MF, you mentioned in a previous post about your farming methods, the work and the income etc.

Did that income you mentioned and lifestyle, include your sidleine business in engineering. Could you maintain your schooling, holidays and so on without the engineering aspect, no matter what size it is ? Just wondering as not every farmer has the ability to fall back on a secondary income, particulalry in this country even more so.

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - things would be fine without the engineering. It accounts for about 25% of nett income and about 1/3 of total turnover.

The engineering started because I am an ag engineer by profession, and it proved to be the best legit way of getting a work permitt that was associated with the agriculture industry.

Rototillers / Rotovators - them tings you latch behind the tractor with blades on that spn and mix the soil up. Some PM@d and asked where to buy:

The same place you buy small tractors - i.e.coming out of Bangkok heading North East to Saravuri and Korat. Just at the end of the raised motorway going past the airport, as you come back down to ground level - for the next 15kms on the right hand side of the road you will see loads of tractor dealers. The guys with all the small orange and blue Kubotas and Iseki usually have piles of rotorr tillers on the forecourt as well. They all come from Japan, wher the Japs bin them every 300 or 400 hours - damage or no damage (thats just the way the business works there) - so most of them are in good nick. You can get one in good condition for Baht10K most for a small medium Kubota or Iseki.

What to look out for:

1) Check the blades and amke sure the dealer can offer you new blades - take a new set with you

back North - they all eventualy wearout or break and they don't cost much - so buy a set when

you buy the tiller.

2) Check it has a sticker on it that has a figure on it that says 540rpm or 560 rpm or 1000rpm -

thats the pto input speed and make sure or tractor pto output speed corrosponds with the tiller

rpm required speed (driving a 540 or 560rpm tiller at 1000rpm is not a good idea - things will go

wrong, you either mess it up or some curious youngster is going to get hurt).

3) you 2 types - one is driven by a 90 degree drop down gearbox mounted in the centre of the tiller

and the other has the gear box mounted sideways with a shaft attached to one end of the tiller

and then a pully system to drive the tube to which all the blades are mounted under the tinwork

covers.

4) I prefer the type with the centre drop down gearbox - if thats what you buy you must turn it over

and check that the 2 half shafts which the blades are attached too are not bent i.e. check when

you turn it by hand that the blade tubes DO NOT rotate of centre but that they rotate they

maintain the same centre line. If eith er side rotates off the tube centreline it means it is bent.

It will shake like hel_l when you use it - move on and look for another one. This is not so common

with the type that is driven from one side as it has mounting points at both ends of the tube to

which the blades are attached, where as the type that is driven in its centre has no end supports.

Still I prefer this latter type and as long as the tubes are not bent then they are the type to go for

first..

5) If you do not have a PTO extention shaft get one included in the tiller purchase - uou will need it to drive the tiller from the pto output stub at the rear of the tractor (good bargining point).

6) Check that the splines on the tractor pto stub match the splines on the extention shaft and these

these in turn match the splines on the tiller gearbox stub - otherwise you will not be able to

connect the 3 parts together. Generally all the small Jap tractors have the same spline

configuration - but just check in any case.

Also - if poss look for a tiller that has a sticker on the tin work that shows the various ways the blades can be arranged. On a lot of the tillers you can re arrange the blades to create a trough with the soil tilled to th sides, or by changing the way the blades are set up, youc an get the soild to collet in the centre so that the centre is raised like a seedbed - it be be flat topped or rounded - or you can even get some that will allow you the till the soil into 2 furrows with a raised ridge at each end and in the centre.

They are great machines, cheap and will do the work of a dozen dozy Thai labourers in less than a quater of the time it would take them to do the same - and it will be done consistantly from start to finish.

Tim

[teletiger]

That's some great stuff there Tim. Thank-you.

Now.....how about a no-till grass seed drill?

regards

[Maizefarmer]

That's some great stuff there Tim. Thank-you.

Now.....how about a no-till grass seed drill?

regards

No till/ Min-till grass seed drill - sure, its a great "methodology" but its use is subject to your conditions.

Do you mean ABSOLUTELY ZERO TILL - JUST DRILL or are you meaning true min- till and drill?

I wouldn't have thought many guys would practise min-till in Thailand, and there are very few drills in Thailand because the average Thai farmer hasn't got a tracor big enough to drive the drill vacums and airpumps, or the skills to maintain them. But anyhow, what would you like to know - quite happy to write something up about it.

I use a 2nd hand Simba C06 to drill grass seed, and a 2nd hand 10row foldable Kinze (mechanical) for maize seed - everything has to be 2nd hand, the cost of both the units in Thailand new would be astronomical.

But I don't always min - till - you can't round here, you have to turn the soil at least once every 2 or 3 years, between wihich time yes - min-till saves a load in fuel costs.

This should be chased up on its own thread - Soil Prep - the Right Way & Wrong Way.

What made you think of that - wa sit because you have read in one of my first posts that I use a Simba Solo? The Thai's stand a stare at the machine - they do not understand how you can plant without ploughing.

Tim

[teletiger]

Tim,

My neighbour has given me the lease option on a 50 rai ruizzi stand (partially invaded). I would want to sub-plant it with a legume (stylo verano) and overplant the invasion. I really don't want to plough and re-plant the whole thing. Also, on my land I don't want to have to re-plant the pastures (every 3 years?) But from the £anguage you are talking, maybe 100 rai would not be a viable option to buy and run the machinery.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Aah - now I see where you are coming from on this subject....

Negative - if you're renting, no I personall can't see the economics adding up to justify the purchase of a min-till unit for 100rai.

Tell me - you say partially invaded by Ruzzi - er...... in terms of percentage how much would you think is covered by Ruzzi at the moment, and whats the rest consist of?

Have water or not - and can you irrigate?

Let me make sure I understand - your plan is to eventually get rid of the Ruzzi and use Stylo Verano, or is the plan to develope a mixed forage field with both the Ruzzi and the Stylo?

Tim

Edited September 1, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[teletiger]

Tim,

Please excuse me for being vague. The 50 rai ruizzi stand has been 25/30% invaded by native grasses. I want to plant ruizzi over the invasion, then interplant the whole thing with Stylo verano.

The owner wants to sell the land, but will be willing to offer 1 year leases until this time. It's not irrigated. The land we own is irrigated and the ruizzi/stylo pastures (60/40) work very well for us. The stylo gives a big kick to the protein value of the pasture.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Understood.....

You,re lucky to have soil conditions that are suitable for both for Ruzzi and Stylo.

Establishing a forage pasture is a big invetsment for something that is only a year on year contract, but anyway, in reply to your answers:

Firstly it sounds as if most of the crop from this land will be sold to other farmers. I am making the assumption that that this is the case - as otherwise, how are you currently supporting your livestock if you dont already have enough pasture land?

Anyway - back to the matter in hand:

1) The first thing to bare in mind is that the land you have at the moment is irrigated - and that is what sustains your Stylo and Ruzzi mix. Stylo as you will know (like Ruzzi) prefers a sandy drained soil. The point is this:sandy drained soils require irrigation to support the crops that like those soils. So we have a conflict - you want to grow a forage crop mix that requires irrigation.

Without irrigation you are going to get a greatly reduced yield. that isnot to say you shouldn't do it, and i have to be careful here because not everyone has the setup I have - so the issue is not so much don't do it because that is not how I would do it, but - how can you make the best of the opputunty you have.

Okay - no irrigation. Fine, so you are not going to get the yield on this land that you get on the land you have that is irrigated, but it may still be worth it. If thats the way you wish to go then this is how I would proceed.

I would shallow disc that land right now - within the next coupl of weeks - ASAP.

Then prayer for a bit of rain. As soon as the native grasses start to regrow spray with a herbicide at about 2" - 3", give it a week to die back, and then get your seeds down quick quick. You will have enough time to get at least one full cut before the end of the wet season this year,, and possibly a 2nd cut.

Then you'll have to tolerate the slow growth rate this coming dry season, but the advantage is you'll have an established root system for when the rain comes next year, and instead of having to do this all next year, it will all be done, the forage will regenerate and you can get straight on with using the pasture.

That is how I would do it.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

TeleTiger

Sorry mate - I have to stop for now - the cows are coming in (milking starts 4am) - I'll follow up on this after all the mroning work is done and I've had me breakfast. I' ll catch up with again around 11am

Tim

[teletiger]

My cows seem to get a black headed pimple 10 maybe 20 spots now and then on them.

My first understanding is it comes from a insect bite (wasp maybe) they can get as big as a piece of chewed chewing gum look-a-like, with the help of (local vet and injections for them) they dry up and or fall out leaving a root hole in the animals back which heals in time.

Any Ideas how to avoid in the future.

cheers

Matt

Matt,

New one to me.....and my puzzled neighbours . Could the black tops be dried blood?

You could try mixing insecticide with diesel, soaking a piece of heavy rope (or whatever) in this mixture and hanging it over the entrance to the barn/corall, so it wipes their head and back, coming and going.

Or hanging the rope over their food trough, for the same effect.

One of my neighbours starts a kindling fire and smothers it in fresh grass. It burns for hours creating lots of smoke. Maybe wipe the mixture on after washing them? Keep us posted.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

See how subjects move on and take on a life of their own.... I still need to give you an answer on this , dont I. Will chase up the othe rhalf this evening at dinner.

I think we are all in agreement that the "black tops" are dried blood and tissue as the wound heals - no prob's with that - the question was, what insect/bug was causing them in the first place, and I went off "yes yes - no prob's - will find out" - and anyone who held their breath waiting for an answer is now dead.

You can try the old rope and diesel trick - and smoke trick. I know a lot of rural farmers do it and have done so for years and do have a certain amount of success.

Personally, I dont like the idea of smoldering fire in my barn all night (or even near to it - wet season maybe - dry season absolute no no), full of cows whose heads are covered in diesel residue - and a doorway with stringy old ropes covered in diesel (just where any spark is going to blow in) - recipe for a lot of "fun & trouble" that is!

Does keep the bugs off, they hate anyting petroluem and smoky - but so do the cows - next thing you'll be giving them cough mixture (ha ha)

Tim

Edited September 2, 2006 by Maizefarmer