Putin: Leaders agree deal for Ukraine cease-fire

[F430murci]

I don't think he cares if we see because brainwashed Russians/people like you will believe anything he says . . .

one more "expert" of Russia when get tired of drinking beer.

Wrong again. Don't drink beer.

[F430murci]

Nazis part of Ukranians armee (about 13 batalions) told that they would not stop fire

Source? Let me guess, RT?

Ukranian news, let see korrespondent .net they leader Yarosh declared it.

He is an idiot then. Let's see if the shelling stops in Debaltseve and Maiupol after deadline.

Perhaps you guys are right . . . Both the Ukraine and Russia should just go to <deleted> as perhaps both pretty much suck here. Starting to question this myself, but I do feel for the decent Ukrainian and Russia people that work hard and strive for a better life.

[F430murci]

Just as I stated days before the parties gathered in Minsk, Putin would by any means necessary secure the important railway junction city of Debaktseve and the industrial city io Mariupol before withdrawing heavy artillery as Putin wanted the line drawn to include these cities and as much territory as possible.

Interesting how the rebels are kicking Ukraine's butt with the aide if sophisticated weaponry that Ukraine has never possessed and that Russia very recently developed.

Washington is starting to release satellite images now because the situation is becoming dire. I am sure the pro-Putin trolls who constantly beg for satelite images will just dismiss these with their usual spin.

If Debatlseve falls and the Minsk deal disintegrates, US and Saudi just need to drop oil back below $ 50 a barrell and keep it there for 3 to 6 months. That is all that is needed to tank Putin's economy and make Russians start questioning his leadership on a very large scale.

---------

MOSCOW The Obama administration on Saturday released satellite images that it said showed that the Russian army had joined rebels to mount a full-scale assault on surrounded government troops in eastern Ukraine, hours before a cease-fire set to take effect at midnight.

A cease-fire deal reached Thursday gave a two-and-a-half day window before the shooting was actually supposed to stop, sparking fears of an uptick in fighting as both sides tried to capture ground. What has actually happened, according to Ukrainian troops, leaders and the United States, is a major offensive on the Ukrainian-held railway hub of Debaltseve. Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers are said to be bunkered there on a spit of land deep in rebel-held territory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-alleges-russian-fighting-in-ukraine-hours-ahead-of-cease-fire/2015/02/14/ae2094fa-cb86-4b5d-b309-b5fe07fba733_story.html

Yes US congressman also provided photo evidence and we know the outcome of that

After all, Putin is just so stupid in comparison to a bunch of smart men in the White House, that NOT only he would allow them to photograph its military but move it into Ukraine right under a satellite.

Really makes you wonder, how brain washed some Americans are to fall for anything.

Thankfully EU has little more brain and going in the right way about this mess.

Would appear Nazi party leader was correct to state it was better to have US negotiate, because then no ceasefire would ever be reached, US would make sure of it

And just make sure its "appropriate" straight from the horses mouth https://www.facebook.com/dyastrub/posts/782660468477506

I don't think he cares if we see because brainwashed Russians/people like you will believe anything he says . . . although Russians are starting to question the "official" line coming out of Moscow. His focus right now is gaining Debaltseve and perhaps Mariupol by any means possible before there is an actual cease fire.

You completely evade the issue of wether the weapons depicted are Russian and/or weapons of a type that did not exist in the Ukraine prior to this conflict.

Let's talk smarts (This is relevant to Ukraine because Putin can ill afford to permit Ukraine to succeed financially with IMF help while his economy is failing):

Russian economy continues to fail and is facing another possible default in less than 20 years. How many times have the US defaulted?

Russian food prices are soaring (23.8%) due to hyper inflation experienced in certain products this year and Russian food prices are experiencing hyper inflation for a second time in less than 30 years. How many times has the US experienced hyperinflation with food prices?

What is Russian GDP capita? What is US GDP per capita? You have to admit that Russian GDP per capita is pretty pathetic for all of those natural resources in Russia.

Let's talk brain washed:

Every aspect of Russian media and Russia social network is owned, operated and controlled by Putin et al. Please explains how US social media and news networks (especially Fox) are controlled by Obama, especially when they constantly bash Obama and criticize Obama 24/7?

US actually gets both the Russian and the Ukraine version and we are smart enough weed through the bs and employ a little common sense to evaluate the situation.

I see so you soaked every thing said and came up with mumbo jumbo about Russian GDP?

You seriously asking how many times US defaulted? , should you not be asking how much in debt US is?

So Russia now controls facebook? , whats next?

LOL, people smarter than you, countries and institutional investors with fiduciary obligations over large blocks of money all happily invest in the US with horribly low yields and stay far, very far away from Russia with higher yields. This is a direct reflection on risk of default and safety of the investment.

[F430murci]

Just as I stated days before the parties gathered in Minsk, Putin would by any means necessary secure the important railway junction city of Debaktseve and the industrial city io Mariupol before withdrawing heavy artillery as Putin wanted the line drawn to include these cities and as much territory as possible.

Interesting how the rebels are kicking Ukraine's butt with the aide if sophisticated weaponry that Ukraine has never possessed and that Russia very recently developed.

Washington is starting to release satellite images now because the situation is becoming dire. I am sure the pro-Putin trolls who constantly beg for satelite images will just dismiss these with their usual spin.

If Debatlseve falls and the Minsk deal disintegrates, US and Saudi just need to drop oil back below $ 50 a barrell and keep it there for 3 to 6 months. That is all that is needed to tank Putin's economy and make Russians start questioning his leadership on a very large scale.

---------

MOSCOW The Obama administration on Saturday released satellite images that it said showed that the Russian army had joined rebels to mount a full-scale assault on surrounded government troops in eastern Ukraine, hours before a cease-fire set to take effect at midnight.

A cease-fire deal reached Thursday gave a two-and-a-half day window before the shooting was actually supposed to stop, sparking fears of an uptick in fighting as both sides tried to capture ground. What has actually happened, according to Ukrainian troops, leaders and the United States, is a major offensive on the Ukrainian-held railway hub of Debaltseve. Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers are said to be bunkered there on a spit of land deep in rebel-held territory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-alleges-russian-fighting-in-ukraine-hours-ahead-of-cease-fire/2015/02/14/ae2094fa-cb86-4b5d-b309-b5fe07fba733_story.html

Yes US congressman also provided photo evidence and we know the outcome of that

After all, Putin is just so stupid in comparison to a bunch of smart men in the White House, that NOT only he would allow them to photograph its military but move it into Ukraine right under a satellite.

Really makes you wonder, how brain washed some Americans are to fall for anything.

Thankfully EU has little more brain and going in the right way about this mess.

Would appear Nazi party leader was correct to state it was better to have US negotiate, because then no ceasefire would ever be reached, US would make sure of it

And just make sure its "appropriate" straight from the horses mouth https://www.facebook.com/dyastrub/posts/782660468477506

I don't think he cares if we see because brainwashed Russians/people like you will believe anything he says . . . although Russians are starting to question the "official" line coming out of Moscow. His focus right now is gaining Debaltseve and perhaps Mariupol by any means possible before there is an actual cease fire.

You completely evade the issue of wether the weapons depicted are Russian and/or weapons of a type that did not exist in the Ukraine prior to this conflict.

Let's talk smarts (This is relevant to Ukraine because Putin can ill afford to permit Ukraine to succeed financially with IMF help while his economy is failing):

Russian economy continues to fail and is facing another possible default in less than 20 years. How many times have the US defaulted?

Russian food prices are soaring (23.8%) due to hyper inflation experienced in certain products this year and Russian food prices are experiencing hyper inflation for a second time in less than 30 years. How many times has the US experienced hyperinflation with food prices?

What is Russian GDP capita? What is US GDP per capita? You have to admit that Russian GDP per capita is pretty pathetic for all of those natural resources in Russia.

Let's talk brain washed:

Every aspect of Russian media and Russia social network is owned, operated and controlled by Putin et al. Please explains how US social media and news networks (especially Fox) are controlled by Obama, especially when they constantly bash Obama and criticize Obama 24/7?

US actually gets both the Russian and the Ukraine version and we are smart enough weed through the bs and employ a little common sense to evaluate the situation.

I see so you soaked every thing said and came up with mumbo jumbo about Russian GDP?

You seriously asking how many times US defaulted? , should you not be asking how much in debt US is?

So Russia now controls facebook? , whats next?

Hostile takeover of VK and yep, apparently exert some control over Facebook in Russia also.

----------

MOSCOW — A decision by Facebook to block a page used to rally Russian opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin has engulfed the world’s largest social networking site in political controversy and raised accusations that it censors content on behalf of the authorities here.

Facebook over the weekend removed an event pagepromoting a Jan. 15 demonstration near the walls of the Kremlin in support of Aleksei A. Navalny, a leading opposition figure. The page had gathered more than 12,000 prospective attendees before it was blocked at the request of the Russian government’s Internet monitor, Roskomnadzor.

. . .

The ensuing uproar may force Facebook, and its chief executive, Mark Zuckerberg, to make a clearer choice between the free flow of information that social media promises and the risk of lost market-share that could result from angering powerful but repressive governments.

. . .

A person briefed on the situation, who asked not to be identified because of the political sensitivity of the issue, said on Monday that the company had received additional requests from the Russian government to block other pages promoting the rally and that so far it had not granted them. Those requests are still under review, the person said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/23/world/europe/facebook-angers-russian-opposition-by-blocking-protest-page.html?_r=0

[F430murci]

Just as I stated days before the parties gathered in Minsk, Putin would by any means necessary secure the important railway junction city of Debaktseve and the industrial city io Mariupol before withdrawing heavy artillery as Putin wanted the line drawn to include these cities and as much territory as possible.

Interesting how the rebels are kicking Ukraine's butt with the aide if sophisticated weaponry that Ukraine has never possessed and that Russia very recently developed.

Washington is starting to release satellite images now because the situation is becoming dire. I am sure the pro-Putin trolls who constantly beg for satelite images will just dismiss these with their usual spin.

If Debatlseve falls and the Minsk deal disintegrates, US and Saudi just need to drop oil back below $ 50 a barrell and keep it there for 3 to 6 months. That is all that is needed to tank Putin's economy and make Russians start questioning his leadership on a very large scale.

---------

MOSCOW The Obama administration on Saturday released satellite images that it said showed that the Russian army had joined rebels to mount a full-scale assault on surrounded government troops in eastern Ukraine, hours before a cease-fire set to take effect at midnight.

A cease-fire deal reached Thursday gave a two-and-a-half day window before the shooting was actually supposed to stop, sparking fears of an uptick in fighting as both sides tried to capture ground. What has actually happened, according to Ukrainian troops, leaders and the United States, is a major offensive on the Ukrainian-held railway hub of Debaltseve. Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers are said to be bunkered there on a spit of land deep in rebel-held territory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-alleges-russian-fighting-in-ukraine-hours-ahead-of-cease-fire/2015/02/14/ae2094fa-cb86-4b5d-b309-b5fe07fba733_story.html

Yes US congressman also provided photo evidence and we know the outcome of that

After all, Putin is just so stupid in comparison to a bunch of smart men in the White House, that NOT only he would allow them to photograph its military but move it into Ukraine right under a satellite.

Really makes you wonder, how brain washed some Americans are to fall for anything.

Thankfully EU has little more brain and going in the right way about this mess.

Would appear Nazi party leader was correct to state it was better to have US negotiate, because then no ceasefire would ever be reached, US would make sure of it

And just make sure its "appropriate" straight from the horses mouth https://www.facebook.com/dyastrub/posts/782660468477506

I don't think he cares if we see because brainwashed Russians/people like you will believe anything he says . . . although Russians are starting to question the "official" line coming out of Moscow. His focus right now is gaining Debaltseve and perhaps Mariupol by any means possible before there is an actual cease fire.

You completely evade the issue of wether the weapons depicted are Russian and/or weapons of a type that did not exist in the Ukraine prior to this conflict.

Let's talk smarts (This is relevant to Ukraine because Putin can ill afford to permit Ukraine to succeed financially with IMF help while his economy is failing):

Russian economy continues to fail and is facing another possible default in less than 20 years. How many times have the US defaulted?

Russian food prices are soaring (23.8%) due to hyper inflation experienced in certain products this year and Russian food prices are experiencing hyper inflation for a second time in less than 30 years. How many times has the US experienced hyperinflation with food prices?

What is Russian GDP capita? What is US GDP per capita? You have to admit that Russian GDP per capita is pretty pathetic for all of those natural resources in Russia.

Let's talk brain washed:

Every aspect of Russian media and Russia social network is owned, operated and controlled by Putin et al. Please explains how US social media and news networks (especially Fox) are controlled by Obama, especially when they constantly bash Obama and criticize Obama 24/7?

US actually gets both the Russian and the Ukraine version and we are smart enough weed through the bs and employ a little common sense to evaluate the situation.

I see so you soaked every thing said and came up with mumbo jumbo about Russian GDP?

You seriously asking how many times US defaulted? , should you not be asking how much in debt US is?

So Russia now controls facebook? , whats next?

And more social media blocking to better filter events such as Ukraine for the Russian people.

LOL at Putin's statement that the Internet is a "project of the CIA" so it needs to be blocked and censored.

I am sure people in Russia are just itching to post details of Russian troop activity after the arrest of the poor young mother for high treason . . .

----------

Russia has stepped up control of the internet this year. Laws came into effect in February giving the prosecutor-general power to order websites or social media accounts to be blocked without a court order.

In May, a senior official at Roskomnadzor publicly threatened to block Twitter in Russia and complained that Google and Facebook were unresponsive to Russian government demands to block content seen as illegal by Moscow. Facebook said it restricted access to 29 pieces of content in Russia in the first six months of this year at the government’s request.

Mr Putin, who has in the past described the internet as a “project of the CIA”, warned on Saturday about growing numbers of foreign spies in Russia.

“Special services that are operating in Russia are becoming more active.

For example, more than 230 career employees and agents of foreign special services have been found out this year via counterintelligence alone,” he said.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ee065d6c-8913-11e4-ad5b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3RjzPvl8g

Edited February 14, 2015 by F430murci

[lovetotravel]

Nazis part of Ukranians armee (about 13 batalions) told that they would not stop fire

Not sure about the Nazi part, but I've read reports saying some groups won't stop fighting as they want the Russians out of their town/country.

Best of luck to the poor civilians caught up in this. They always pay the heaviest price in conflicts like this.

[Pakboong]

Nazis part of Ukranians armee (about 13 batalions) told that they would not stop fire

Not sure about the Nazi part, but I've read reports saying some groups won't stop fighting as they want the Russians out of their town/country.

Best of luck to the poor civilians caught up in this. They always pay the heaviest price in conflicts like this.

IMO, to understand the Nazi issue in Ukraine, you need to go back to the Holodomor which Holodomor info dot com calls the period the Jewish ethnic cleansing of Europe. Not necessary to agree or disagree, it did in fact happen and is a festering sore with many Ukrainians.

http://holodomorinfo.com/

In 1941 when the Nazis took over Kiev, the Ukrainian army surrendered without a fight to the Germans largely because they hated the Jewish led Soviet Union. They helped round up the Jews and some 37,000 were murdered in a ravine outside Kiev called Babi Yar. This surrender or capitulation, gave the Nazis manpower to guard the concentration camps and create Ukrainian units to fight with the Germans and wear German uniforms. The surrender of 760,000 Ukrainian soldiers is considered by many the largest one day surrender in history. Explains in part why the Ukrainian guards were more brutal and the other guards.

Now we have a situation where the right wingers in Ukraine will fight the Russians but also want to fight the Jews as they hold both of them responsible for the Holodomor. Even though it was the Soviet Union and not the Russian Federation, Many right wing Ukrainian Nazis considers them one and the same.

Porky is Jewish as are most of his key appointees. This is something that will be hard for the Ukrainians to overcome. Right now, the right wing element in Ukraine are not planning to honor the Minsk agreement and will likely continue the fight. I don't know if the West is actually using this situation to provoke a war or simply not caring to understand this history. I expect that most of the desertions plaguing the Ukrainian units have to do with this right wing issue. It is so serious IMO, it cannot be swept under the rug.

[Scott]

Conspiracy post removed.

[F430murci]

Koyng;

You want to talk meddling? What about sending weapons and troops into a country to annex or take over portions of that country? Now that is meddling!

If Putin is so wise, knowing and benevolent, you can surely thank him and think rosy thoughts about him as your standing in lines to buy bread or food as soon as you get paid due to hyperinflation, while you are standing lines to buy dollars or convert your worthless Rubles, while 20 % of your restaurants are closing, while some can no longer afford to pay their mortgages that originated outside Russia, while you can only dream of purchasing decent cars and homes (that Americans take for granted) because interest rates are so high and you ain't got NO money, while you or family members are getting laid off or while your driving over those horribly crappy roads that Putin could have fixed, but decided to keep the money for himself.

Lol, I could go on and on. Russia and Ukraine are basket cases. Ukraine had a chance to rise above and actually enjoy a decent life, but Putin could not let his suffering Russians see that when their economy is in the toilet.

[Publicus]

Nazis part of Ukranians armee (about 13 batalions) told that they would not stop fire

Nazis part of Ukranians armee (about 13 batalions) told that they would not stop fire

Not sure about the Nazi part, but I've read reports saying some groups won't stop fighting as they want the Russians out of their town/country.

Best of luck to the poor civilians caught up in this. They always pay the heaviest price in conflicts like this.

IMO, to understand the Nazi issue in Ukraine, you need to go back to the Holodomor which Holodomor info dot com calls the period the Jewish ethnic cleansing of Europe. Not necessary to agree or disagree, it did in fact happen and is a festering sore with many Ukrainians.

http://holodomorinfo.com/

In 1941 when the Nazis took over Kiev, the Ukrainian army surrendered without a fight to the Germans largely because they hated the Jewish led Soviet Union. They helped round up the Jews and some 37,000 were murdered in a ravine outside Kiev called Babi Yar. This surrender or capitulation, gave the Nazis manpower to guard the concentration camps and create Ukrainian units to fight with the Germans and wear German uniforms. The surrender of 760,000 Ukrainian soldiers is considered by many the largest one day surrender in history. Explains in part why the Ukrainian guards were more brutal and the other guards.

Now we have a situation where the right wingers in Ukraine will fight the Russians but also want to fight the Jews as they hold both of them responsible for the Holodomor. Even though it was the Soviet Union and not the Russian Federation, Many right wing Ukrainian Nazis considers them one and the same.

Porky is Jewish as are most of his key appointees. This is something that will be hard for the Ukrainians to overcome. Right now, the right wing element in Ukraine are not planning to honor the Minsk agreement and will likely continue the fight. I don't know if the West is actually using this situation to provoke a war or simply not caring to understand this history. I expect that most of the desertions plaguing the Ukrainian units have to do with this right wing issue. It is so serious IMO, it cannot be swept under the rug.

There are no Nazi armed forces fighting anywhere in the world. There certainly are not any Nazi armed forces fighting in Ukraine for Ukraine. Any Nazi group in any country -- and they do exist in certain countries -- are semi-military but are not an organized military armed force.

You refer to the Right Sector of Ukrainian politics. They are not Nazis. They certainly are not Nazis simply because they might not like the Jews of Ukraine or of the world, if that is their view which is something that remains unproved.

You can show us all the armbands or flags with lightening bolts on them that you may like, the fact remains they are rightists, not Nazis. They are the Ukraine Right Sector. They are not Nazis. Not by any definition.

[Publicus]

Putin is Putin which means he is cynical, vicious, wild.

Ukraine’s Jews caught in a propaganda war based on the ‘political manipulation of anti-Semitism'

One person who sought to “make it about Jews” was Vladimir Putin, the Russian president. Invoking the centuries-old history of pogroms in what is now Ukraine, and more recently the 2012 election to parliament of a minority of representatives from the extreme-right Svoboda party, he denounced the new government in Kyiv as “nationalists, neo-Nazis, Russophobes and anti-Semites.”

He said they stopped at nothing to topple Mr. Yanukovych. “Terror, murder, pogroms were used.”

Writing last month in The New York Times, Amelia Glaser, a professor of Russian literature at the University of California, San Diego, said Ukraine’s Jewish leaders can be found in the pro-Russian and pro-European camps. But Mr. Putin’s description of the new government is false.

“Far from being controlled by neo-Nazis, the new government includes several members of ethnic minorities, including Russians,” she wrote. “The new government has an Armenian minister of internal affairs and a Jewish deputy prime minister.”

Anton Shekhovtsov, a political scientist at University College London who specializes in Europe’s extreme right, said while right-wing groups were a fringe player in the Euromaidan movement, they play a bigger role in the pro-Russian separatist movements in southern and eastern Ukraine.

“I would say that for the majority of those pro-Russian fascist groups that have been active in Ukraine, anti-Semitism is one of the defining features,” he said.

“Putin is just using anti-Semitism as a kind of tool to discredit the Euromaidan process. He doesn’t care about anti-Semitism,” he said.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/25/ukraines-jews-caught-in-a-propaganda-war-that-uses-the-political-manipulation-of-anti-semitism/

Edited February 16, 2015 by Publicus

[F430murci]

And more social media blocking to better filter events such as Ukraine for the Russian people.

LOL at Putin's statement that the Internet is a "project of the CIA" so it needs to be blocked and censored.

I am sure people in Russia are just itching to post details of Russian troop activity after the arrest of the poor young mother for high treason . . .

----------

Russia has stepped up control of the internet this year. Laws came into effect in February giving the prosecutor-general power to order websites or social media accounts to be blocked without a court order.

In May, a senior official at Roskomnadzor publicly threatened to block Twitter in Russia and complained that Google and Facebook were unresponsive to Russian government demands to block content seen as illegal by Moscow. Facebook said it restricted access to 29 pieces of content in Russia in the first six months of this year at the governments request.

Mr Putin, who has in the past described the internet as a project of the CIA, warned on Saturday about growing numbers of foreign spies in Russia.

Special services that are operating in Russia are becoming more active.

For example, more than 230 career employees and agents of foreign special services have been found out this year via counterintelligence alone, he said.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ee065d6c-8913-11e4-ad5b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3RjzPvl8g

Seems you are way off track and very confused.

Russia did not block or change or modified what Nazi leader has said, it is right there for you to read

And he clearly stated 2 points to note:

1. Ukraine should have gone to US to negotiate because US and anti Russian

2. Nazi party does not agree to a cease fire and will continue to fight.

These are the facts to deal with.

You can argue till you turn blue that US did nothing, and you may even chose to disregard evidence of US meddling, but when President of US of A, confirms US did meddle and continues to do so, it is really hypocritical to accuse Russia, really:w00t:

About 20 seconds through the CNN interview Obama openly states US meddled and supported an illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government.

http://rt.com/op-edge/228379-obama-power-transition-ukraine/

Uhm . . . WTH? Of course Russia media or Putin would not block or change something that places Ukraine or US in a negative light. Are you that, lets say not smart to be kind, or just that intellectually dishonest. Lol, at brining Nazi's and Obama into a post to refute your assertion that Russia does not censor social media. Nice try and pretty funny though.

Well since Russia is all so bad, any reason why US media conveniently overlooked the fact that armed militia from Ukraine does not accept the peace deal?

Yes, Ultra Nationalist Party are a Nazi party with same ideology and principles, which part of that do you find dishonest?

How is it that your FREE US press, just skipped through the fact that US started this whole mess?

Is it not the whole stance of US,, the sovereignty? and yet US went into a sovereign state, overthrew democratic government and now create more problems blaming other country.?

Good to see you are honest and NOT hypocritical , now that is really truly funny

So now lets look at this peace deal.

Russia signed and agreed, Pro Russian rebels signed and agreed, Kiev signed and agreed, but Nazi party, mind you the one originally supported by US does not agree and coincidentally US also has a problem.

So should the peace deal fail, who would be responsible? , no need to answer, its a rhetorical question, i know exactly what you will say.

Well lets see, the rebels are attacking again in Debaltseve.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0LK13K20150216?irpc=932

i had hope that both Russians and Ukranians who are good people would not get sucked into the bs your selling that keeps your countries a basket case.

Perhaps, the only option is to let the idiots on both side act like idiots and further screw both Russia and Ukraine up. Perhaps, just maybe, one day when things get bad enough they will see what they are doing is not working and demand change.

We are brining the MIL over to take care of her while Russia economy and this situation implodes. You and others might be better seved to stop trying to sell the bs and step up and take some responsibility for, well, just about everything that is happening in your own countries.

Lol, keep blaming the US and let Putun add another $ 200 bn to his his Swiss bank accounts while the infrastructure falls a part and people cannot afford their mortgage payments, cars or food. Come back in 6 months and tell us how that worked out for you when things get really bad in Russia.

[F430murci]

How stupid can one be. Ukranian forces are encircled and pinned down by rebels at Debaltseve, They have been getting their butts kicked by the rebels who just about took Debaktseve prior to cease fire . . ., but the rebels would have us believe that the poor Ukranian soldiers encircled and pinned down in Debaltseve fighting for survival until the cease fire would just start firing at the rebels surrounding them after the cease fire.

Huh? Really?

Oh wait, it's he neo Nazi's fault for not signing the truce that made the rebels decide to finish off and take over Debaltseve which Putin said Ukraine should surrender prior to the cease fire.

Lol, cannot argue with stupid.

---------

A lull after the midnight cease-fire deadline, however, was followed Sunday morning by a resumption of shelling near the disputed town of Debaltseve, where the fate of about 8,000 Ukrainian soldiers remained unresolved in the negotiations leading to the cease-fire.

. . .

The separatists said the Ukrainian Army had opened fire and their forces had little choice but to respond, a rebel news agency, DAN, quoted Eduard Basurin, the military spokesman for the Donetsk Peoples Republic, as saying. Units were forced to open fire in response, Mr. Basurin said.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/16/world/europe/despite-truce-shelling-continues-in-parts-of-ukraine.html?referrer=

[craigt3365]

More troll posts removed. Including references to inappropriate websites. Please, no more.

[F430murci]

This article actually places everything in perspective.

The West attempted to help the Ukrainians to better a life, but Putin could not let that happen due to his inability to provide Russians a better, more stable economic life.

The issue is now much bigger than the Ukraine and the Ukrainian people will suffer thanks to Putin. The West tried to help, but it is time to give it up and move on. As addressed by this article, the West arming the Ukraine is going to have a severe backlash to the West. The West has done all it could do. Time to move on, drop the price of oil below $ 50, impose some sanctions with teeth and let Russian economy go to crappp. Russians will only buy into Putin's bs for so long when their economy crashes, especially if and when rumors of him swiping a couple of hundred billion from the mouths of hungry Russians start circulating. Russian justice can be swift, brutal and efficient.

---------

"Sanctions on Russia are imposing costs. But the Ukraine crisis is no longer just about Ukraine. It's now a much bigger, more dangerous crisis, between Russia and Western countries, about values and order in Europe," he said.

Western countries could "take on Moscow" by providing weapons to Ukraine so it can defend itself and introducing more stringent sanctions, he said.

But Sir John warned Russian President Vladimir Putin was likely to respond.

"As long as Mr Putin sees the issue in terms of Russia's own security he will be prepared to go further than us. So he would respond with further escalation on the ground. Perhaps cyber attacks against us.

"We have thousands of deaths in Ukraine. We could start to get tens of thousands, then what?"

The crisis might end up with a "new debilitating frozen conflict in Ukraine, for well into the future," he warned.

"That is a wretched outcome for Ukrainians. But it may be the least bad attainable outcome."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31496933

[Publicus]

I haven't seen anyone present a good case for the US to provide the Ukraine armed forces commanders with quality offensive weapons. I think Prez Obama feels the same way but who knows for sure cause he might go ahead to do it anyway in the belief Putin needs to have a worse time than he's already having. But there would be real consequences to that yet we may have to go ahead to butt heads against Vlad..

If Putin during the present cease fire takes the two cities he's been attacking, Debltseve and Maruipol, Nato and the EU countries would need to shut Russia out of the SWIFT global electronic banking system to include its central bank. That itself would be a killer for sure.

Nato in either event would need to send forces into the Baltic states and to Poland Romania, Hungary against the real probability of Russian military invasion. Nato already has established six new new command and control centers in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria so inserting Nato Rapid Force Response troops there would be a natural follow up to the centers and the Russian very real military threat to those countries specifically and in particular..

Washington needs to make clear to Putin that if he continues to attack the two cities, Russia will be ejected from SWIFT and then we'd see what else if anything more. .

The only thing Putin knows is to put his head down and to charge, so somebody needs to whack him in it with a baseball bat. If however the sanctions and ejecting Russia from SWIFT are going to be a good beanball then they will suffice.

[rijit]

not having a clue what swift was!! i now do.. seems.the uk proposed a ban already and it was turned down. u reckon it'll be diferent if the US propose it?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[F430murci]

I haven't seen anyone present a good case for the US to provide the Ukraine armed forces commanders with quality offensive weapons. I think Prez Obama feels the same way but who knows for sure cause he might go ahead to do it anyway in the belief Putin needs to have a worse time than he's already having. But there would be real consequences to that yet we may have to go ahead to butt heads against Vlad..

If Putin during the present cease fire takes the two cities he's been attacking, Debltseve and Maruipol, Nato and the EU countries would need to shut Russia out of the SWIFT global electronic banking system to include its central bank. That itself would be a killer for sure.

Nato in either event would need to send forces into the Baltic states and to Poland Romania, Hungary against the real probability of Russian military invasion. Nato already has established six new new command and control centers in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria so inserting Nato Rapid Force Response troops there would be a natural follow up to the centers and the Russian very real military threat to those countries specifically and in particular..

Washington needs to make clear to Putin that if he continues to attack the two cities, Russia will be ejected from SWIFT and then we'd see what else if anything more. .

The only thing Putin knows is to put his head down and to charge, so somebody needs to whack him in it with a baseball bat. If however the sanctions and ejecting Russia from SWIFT are going to be a good beanball then they will suffice.

Yes, I don't think providing weapons is a good idea. It, however, is very difficult to sit back and watch Ukraine losing real estate and people by the day. This a really sad situation.

Forget the weapons. Watch oil prices now. There is buz of $ 20 to $ 30 real soon. I think that would even drive Putin insiders to make a quick regime change.

The issue with Putin is when you have the ability to throw anybody in jail and steal all of their assets and money whenever they are perceived as a threat, people are scared to speak up or act. He has done this time and time again.

That said, at $ 25 a barrell with a corresponding further dip in the Ruble, hyperinflation, massive oil and banking losses and wholesale business failures and layoffs. . . there may be some drama brewing on the horizon regarding who shall be in control.

Edited February 17, 2015 by F430murci

[Publicus]

not having a clue what swift was!! i now do.. seems.the uk proposed a ban already and it was turned down. u reckon it'll be diferent if the US propose it?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The European Parliament voted last September to ask the EU member states to exclude Russia from SWIFT. The exclusion will be applied, the question is at which vital strategic moment.

SWIFT is a strategic lever over Putin that Nato has and it is a highly effective arrow in the Nato quiver of sanctions.

It is a sanction that will wreak havoc in Russian finance immediately and thoroughly.

After exclusion from SWIFT was applied to Iran in 2012, to include its central bank, the ayatollahs came swiftly to the nuclear negotiating table where they have stayed since...the ayatollahs need an agreement that returns their access to SWIFT far more urgently than they might want the bomb..

Putin and the oligarchs are mortified they will get excluded from SWIFT. So much so that PM Medvedev said if Russia is excluded the response will be "unlimited," whatever that vacuous statement (of awkward English) is supposed to mean. Russia's financial system will have chaos unlimited, for sure.

It's not if but when.

[Publicus]

I haven't seen anyone present a good case for the US to provide the Ukraine armed forces commanders with quality offensive weapons. I think Prez Obama feels the same way but who knows for sure cause he might go ahead to do it anyway in the belief Putin needs to have a worse time than he's already having. But there would be real consequences to that yet we may have to go ahead to butt heads against Vlad..

If Putin during the present cease fire takes the two cities he's been attacking, Debltseve and Maruipol, Nato and the EU countries would need to shut Russia out of the SWIFT global electronic banking system to include its central bank. That itself would be a killer for sure.

Nato in either event would need to send forces into the Baltic states and to Poland Romania, Hungary against the real probability of Russian military invasion. Nato already has established six new new command and control centers in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria so inserting Nato Rapid Force Response troops there would be a natural follow up to the centers and the Russian very real military threat to those countries specifically and in particular..

Washington needs to make clear to Putin that if he continues to attack the two cities, Russia will be ejected from SWIFT and then we'd see what else if anything more. .

The only thing Putin knows is to put his head down and to charge, so somebody needs to whack him in it with a baseball bat. If however the sanctions and ejecting Russia from SWIFT are going to be a good beanball then they will suffice.

Yes, I don't think providing weapons is a good idea. It, however, is very difficult to sit back and watch Ukraine losing real estate and people by the day. This a really sad situation.

Forget the weapons. Watch oil prices now. There is buz of $ 20 to $ 30 real soon. I think that would even drive Putin insiders to make a quick regime change.

The issue with Putin is when you have the ability to throw anybody in jail and steal all of their assets and money whenever they are perceived as a threat, people are scared to speak up or act. He has done this time and time again.

That said, at $ 25 a barrell with a corresponding further dip in the Ruble, hyperinflation, massive oil and banking losses and wholesale business failures and layoffs. . . there may be some drama brewing on the horizon regarding who shall be in control.

When the sanctions regime began last year then was expanded in a second round Nato was confident of the outcome against Putin but knew it needed to wait to see how, when, why the specifics would occur, develop, play out.

Nato knows Putin has his loyalists in the police, the military and elsewhere so that he'd be no patsy to shove out the door. I now get the sense Nato governments have seen things begin to happen and begin to take shape, that they like what they see and that the squeeze on Putin in the Kremlin might be going better than had been anticipated.

The sharp and deep depressing of oil prices in the offing that you point out, the enfeebling of the ruble, the coming SWIFT sanctions and their timing, discussion of Washington arming the Ukraine armed forces, Russians not supporting Putin's Ukraine adventure in the Donbas, Russia's domestic inflation and shortages etc etc are already working against him. The oligarchs didn't like that to spite Nato and the sanctions Putin ran off to Beijing to sign the big oil and natural gas agreement because it was inked at Chinese prices.

Yesterday I read an online discussion of who might succeed Putin, who would be as bad, worse, better, and whether a post Putin Russia might adopt the approach of the CCP Boyz in Beijing to nurture good relations with the United States. These kinds of discussions and considerations are beginning to appear and I'm not hearing the word if too much or at all for that matter.

It could be dreaming and it could be wrong, but I don't think it is likely to be either. Too many people in Nato want the recidivist Putin gone and despite the Brics and some other governments and leaders, Putin has no allies, no friends, no supporters. Beijing is not sticking up for Putin at all, not publicly and not privately. Vlad may end up as a man with a passport but without a country.

[F430murci]

I haven't seen anyone present a good case for the US to provide the Ukraine armed forces commanders with quality offensive weapons. I think Prez Obama feels the same way but who knows for sure cause he might go ahead to do it anyway in the belief Putin needs to have a worse time than he's already having. But there would be real consequences to that yet we may have to go ahead to butt heads against Vlad..

If Putin during the present cease fire takes the two cities he's been attacking, Debltseve and Maruipol, Nato and the EU countries would need to shut Russia out of the SWIFT global electronic banking system to include its central bank. That itself would be a killer for sure.

Nato in either event would need to send forces into the Baltic states and to Poland Romania, Hungary against the real probability of Russian military invasion. Nato already has established six new new command and control centers in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria so inserting Nato Rapid Force Response troops there would be a natural follow up to the centers and the Russian very real military threat to those countries specifically and in particular..

Washington needs to make clear to Putin that if he continues to attack the two cities, Russia will be ejected from SWIFT and then we'd see what else if anything more. .

The only thing Putin knows is to put his head down and to charge, so somebody needs to whack him in it with a baseball bat. If however the sanctions and ejecting Russia from SWIFT are going to be a good beanball then they will suffice.

Yes, I don't think providing weapons is a good idea. It, however, is very difficult to sit back and watch Ukraine losing real estate and people by the day. This a really sad situation.

Forget the weapons. Watch oil prices now. There is buz of $ 20 to $ 30 real soon. I think that would even drive Putin insiders to make a quick regime change.

The issue with Putin is when you have the ability to throw anybody in jail and steal all of their assets and money whenever they are perceived as a threat, people are scared to speak up or act. He has done this time and time again.

That said, at $ 25 a barrell with a corresponding further dip in the Ruble, hyperinflation, massive oil and banking losses and wholesale business failures and layoffs. . . there may be some drama brewing on the horizon regarding who shall be in control.

When the sanctions regime began last year then was expanded in a second round Nato was confident of the outcome against Putin but knew it needed to wait to see how, when, why the specifics would occur, develop, play out.

Nato knows Putin has his loyalists in the police, the military and elsewhere so that he'd be no patsy to shove out the door. I now get the sense Nato governments have seen things begin to happen and begin to take shape, that they like what they see and that the squeeze on Putin in the Kremlin might be going better than had been anticipated.

The sharp and deep depressing of oil prices in the offing that you point out, the enfeebling of the ruble, the coming SWIFT sanctions and their timing, discussion of Washington arming the Ukraine armed forces, Russians not supporting Putin's Ukraine adventure in the Donbas, Russia's domestic inflation and shortages etc etc are already working against him. The oligarchs didn't like that to spite Nato and the sanctions Putin ran off to Beijing to sign the big oil and natural gas agreement because it was inked at Chinese prices.

Yesterday I read an online discussion of who might succeed Putin, who would be as bad, worse, better, and whether a post Putin Russia might adopt the approach of the CCP Boyz in Beijing to nurture good relations with the United States. These kinds of discussions and considerations are beginning to appear and I'm not hearing the word if too much or at all for that matter.

It could be dreaming and it could be wrong, but I don't think it is likely to be either. Too many people in Nato want the recidivist Putin gone and despite the Brics and some other governments and leaders, Putin has no allies, no friends, no supporters. Beijing is not sticking up for Putin at all, not publicly and not privately. Vlad may end up as a man with a passport but without a country.

Besides the Pro-Putin troll like rhetoric on here which will be a mainstay no matter what, the pulse seems to be changing in Russia.. Common Russians no longer get uber defensive when Putin's name is mentioned or the Ukraine situation is discussed. Pretty much the common theme seems to be they cannot understand or accept what Putin is doing in Russia and they no longer defend Putin on Ukraine issues.

My wife and her extended family and friends were extremely pro-Putin up until a few months back to the point that any discussion about Putin became very heated. That topic was off limits with me and with my wife's friends here in the US, the vast majority of which are Ukraine.

They, however, have now come full circle and my wife just last night said she can no longer defend Putin. This comes from a Russian generation, born in 1980, that stood in the food lines during hyperinflation and idolized Putin as being responsible for raising Russia from the ashes.

My wife knows and has done business with Browder. Browder's Putin stole $ 200 bn story, to the extent it filters through to common Russians, is going to create serious problems for the ole boy. There was always talk or suspicion that he profited off Russia, but stories like this during very difficult economic times in Russia . . .

The Browder/Sergei Matnisky story is one of the saddest, most reprehensible stories and I have discussed it her several times in the last couple if years. Karma may repay Putin in spades for this and other things Putin has done over the years.

[rijit]

the 'constant trolls' you refer to are often full time russian propagandists apparently employed by one of putins hench men and are based in st petersburg.

this aint the only site they 'patrol', and challenge anything 'russian.' on . the guardian, the uk papers web site they are untolarably pro active.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited February 18, 2015 by rijit

[F430murci]

Putin telling Ukraine to surrender Debaltseve. What a tool! Should he not be telling rebels to stop shelling the crap out of Debaltseve since he signed the cease fire.

----------

Putin urges Ukraine troops to give up Debaltseve

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31511926

[Publicus]

Well the Ukraine deputy defense minister says 10,000 regular Russian armed forces troops on the ground in Ukraine with the "rebels" they support and have been ordered to raise the Russian flag over Debaltseve.

The Russian forces may be a bit behind schedule but the all out attack against the city continues....

Russian-backed militants and regular Russian troops have been ordered to occupy the town of Debaltseve by Sunday, Ukraine’s Deputy Defense Minister Petro Mekhed said at a briefing in the Cabinet of Ministers on Friday. "Today, having agreement on a ceasefire from 0000, February 15, Russian-backed militants and the Russian armed forces have been ordered to raise the Russian flag over Debaltseve," he said.

According to Mekhed, the same task has been set for Mariupol.

"However, while there is a fierce fighting for Debaltseve, which has been attacked three times as of this morning, Mariupol is still under the control of the Ukrainian armed forces," he said, according to Ukrainian online newspaper LB.ua.

"According to the latest information, there are more than 10,000 soldiers of the Russian armed forces on the territory of Ukraine," Mekhed said.

http://www.unian.info/war/1043944-ukraine-defense-ministry-militants-and-russians-ordered-to-occupy-debaltseve-by-sunday.html