Noob questions about riding manual

[papa al]

"Yes, it could... but my point was unless you get the other 95% right that last 5% is meaningless. Working hard(er) on the 95% seems, to me, more prudent than focusing on the 5%."

If one habitually covers the actuators it becomes...well, habit, and requires no real 'focusing' effort, thus freeing up neurons for the other 95%.

That's my hypothesis as an aspiring motorcycle road-craft theorist anyway.

[Carol Jadzia]

I appreciate some poster's efforts but it's mostly Thai riders/drivers who really need lessons, not folks on this forum.

And I don't understand the point of getting pissed about other riders opinions, obviously we have a mixed lot here from all over the world and riding schools, manuals, rules, etc, will differ from one country to another, UK doesn't set the world's riding rules, just like US isn't a world's police (but that is another subject).

No the UK does not set the world driving rules and I have never suggested that.

We teach from an internationally accepted standard. If you don't want to accept the science behind it then fine. Don't.

But it is not open for debate by anyone. It is proved science that things will happen in a set way so the best practice to deal with things like stopping a motorcycle from speed and the correct use of brakes have been tested in laboratories and by the experiences of riders and researchers over many years now.

I will quiet happily take anyone out on the road and prove it to them in a one to one training course that all I have said is correct. I know I can do this because it is what I have done to earn a living for over 30 years and have passed exams to prove I am up to standard.

Now if you want to argue about the actual theory of what I am saying then I am happy to further discuss the science.

If all you can do is try and challenge my credentials then good luck.

Have you not got something better to do with you life because thats just a waste of time.

[mikebike]

Sorry Carol, I have read all your posts on this thread and if you have been a trainer for that many years and you believe that the art of motorcycle control is a one-size-fits-all lesson that can be learned from a textbook or scientific studies

I am really glad I never had the misfortune of taking lessons from you.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Carol Jadzia]

I really don't believe that there are people here who are so stupid they think that riding covering a brake is in any way shape or form the best practice for riding a bike on a day to day basis. Honestly? Seriously? You actually think that?

This really is a no brainier so well done for proving how blinded by your own ego's you can't see what's staring you in the face. You are the cause of the problem. Not the solution. You are contributing to why Thailand is such a dangerous place to be a road user. If you are so dumb as to think that riding in such a manner as you need to be that much on your brakes makes you a better road user then you are seriously mistaken. What it makes you is a danger to other road users. An accident waiting to happen. Part of the reason the accident rates are so high.

What's the rush? What's the urgency? I pride myself at being able to ride as much as possible without using my brakes. I play games where I try and use as little change as possible. Flowing through. No braking, no panicking, No stopping, just flowing with the ride. When we do advanced riding we look at keeping a safety bubble around us at all times. It is very hard to do this in Bangkok and other places in Thailand as everybody wants to cram in to as small a place as possible. Same happens in other cities around the world just to what degree. But it is not impossible and if people started trying to ride in such a manner then there would be fewer accidents. I think it's strange that in a country that values modesty, privacy and politeness that people seem to want to be so aggressive, up close and personal while out using the roads.

You want to ride around in a manner where you need to constantly cover your brakes? Then You are part of the reason why Thailand's accident rates are so high.

End of line.

[Carol Jadzia]

Sorry Carol, I have read all your posts on this thread and if you have been a trainer for that many years and you believe that the art of motorcycle control is a one-size-fits-all lesson that can be learned from a textbook or scientific studies

I am really glad I never had the misfortune of taking lessons from you.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well done for your contribution.

Please offer the evidence for why you would suggest any of what I have said is wrong.

I can also happily say I have no wish to pursue taking a training course with you either.

[Carol Jadzia]

Funny thread here; btw nobody of you riding for years, riding instructors and wannabes ever mentioned that its actually depend where u grab/ pull the braking lever the more at the end the more braking power... Than it also depends on the setup of the brakes on a good one its easy to lock up the wheel with just 1 finger. Whatever i ride how i feel comfortable and don't listen to forum trolls.

Actually yes it has been covered in depth if you wanted to go back and read the original posts you will find it.

[papa al]

CJ:

Not again!

'Me heap big authority.'

All the same blah blah blah.

You failed to rebut any arguments.

Again you have failed to reference any actual science supporting your blah blah blah.

"But it is not open for debate by anyone."

They call that attitude 'cognitive dissonance.'

[Carol Jadzia]

CJ:

Not again!

'Me heap big authority.'

All the same blah blah blah.

You failed to rebut any arguments.

Again you have failed to reference any actual science supporting your blah blah blah.

"But it is not open for debate by anyone."

They call that attitude 'cognitive dissonance.'

Debate involves sensible counter argument to points made.

There has been no such evidence.

[Familyonthemove]

CJ:

Not again!

'Me heap big authority.'

All the same blah blah blah.

You failed to rebut any arguments.

Again you have failed to reference any actual science supporting your blah blah blah.

"But it is not open for debate by anyone."

They call that attitude 'cognitive dissonance.'

Debate involves sensible counter argument to points made.

There has been no such evidence.

Very well said. And I assume you are including yourself in this statement?

Edited February 22, 2015 by Familyonthemove

[Carol Jadzia]

Very well said! And I assume you are including yourself in this statement.

Yes of course. Have I missed something?

I have not said anything that I have not backed up with evidence or offered as my opinion.

If you wish to confirm anything I have said then please follow the following links.

I teach to a recognised training syllabus that is set out by the British Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency.

The standards set for basic training in the UK are set out in the Compulsory Basic Training Syllabus

All I have posted here is in line with what is expected to legally ride a Motorcycle in the UK and also similarly across Europe.

Basic control skill are physics. Advanced skills are based on years of experience from professional riders.

At the end of the day everything is open to discussion and debate. But I am not going to bicker about basics.

I find it funny that for many here this appears to be the first time they are having this discussion.

This thread contains the same arguments that I have been having for 30 years.

Give me something new that's worthy of debate?

Not seen any of that here.

[Shurup]

[Familyonthemove]

Very well said! And I assume you are including yourself in this statement.

Yes of course. Have I missed something?

I have not said anything that I have not backed up with evidence or offered as my opinion.

If you wish to confirm anything I have said then please follow the following links.

I teach to a recognised training syllabus that is set out by the British Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency.

The standards set for basic training in the UK are set out in the Compulsory Basic Training Syllabus

All I have posted here is in line with what is expected to legally ride a Motorcycle in the UK and also similarly across Europe.

Basic control skill are physics. Advanced skills are based on years of experience from professional riders.

At the end of the day everything is open to discussion and debate. But I am not going to bicker about basics.

I find it funny that for many here this appears to be the first time they are having this discussion.

This thread contains the same arguments that I have been having for 30 years.

Give me something new that's worthy of debate?

Not seen any of that here.

Endlessly repeating the same dogma does not constitute debate. I was trained by UK Police motorcycle instructors when I lived in the UK and I rode as per the Roadcraft manual for many years. But I no longer live in the UK and I have adapted my techniques for a very different environment.

Some posters on here have more experience than you or I of riding in Thailand - but you don't appear to respect their views or modify your own in any way.

So I don't see any real debate and the original poster who asked for some informed views on riding in Thailand has long since left the thread.

[Gweiloman]

I really don't believe that there are people here who are so stupid they think that riding covering a brake is in any way shape or form the best practice for riding a bike on a day to day basis. Honestly? Seriously? You actually think that?

This really is a no brainier so well done for proving how blinded by your own ego's you can't see what's staring you in the face. You are the cause of the problem. Not the solution. You are contributing to why Thailand is such a dangerous place to be a road user. If you are so dumb as to think that riding in such a manner as you need to be that much on your brakes makes you a better road user then you are seriously mistaken. What it makes you is a danger to other road users. An accident waiting to happen. Part of the reason the accident rates are so high.

What's the rush? What's the urgency? I pride myself at being able to ride as much as possible without using my brakes. I play games where I try and use as little change as possible. Flowing through. No braking, no panicking, No stopping, just flowing with the ride. When we do advanced riding we look at keeping a safety bubble around us at all times. It is very hard to do this in Bangkok and other places in Thailand as everybody wants to cram in to as small a place as possible. Same happens in other cities around the world just to what degree. But it is not impossible and if people started trying to ride in such a manner then there would be fewer accidents. I think it's strange that in a country that values modesty, privacy and politeness that people seem to want to be so aggressive, up close and personal while out using the roads.

You want to ride around in a manner where you need to constantly cover your brakes? Then You are part of the reason why Thailand's accident rates are so high.

End of line.

Carol,

Fact is that you readily admitted that you've had a few accidents (when filtering through traffic, cars turning in front of you).

Fact is that a lot of posters here have been riding many years IN BANGKOK without such incidents.

I know whom I would rather learn from.

Fact is that you're not as good a rider as you think you are. Accept it. Live with it. Get over it.

You have not presented a single good argument as to why one should not cover their brakes when riding. Until you can come up with a valid reason (and please do not just post links to all and sundry - none of your links so far have addressed this point), you are nothing more that a self proclaimed expert rider. We have enough of these on this forum as it is.

Most of your riding has been in the UK where the average motorist is generally qualified to pilot a motor vehicle. Most motorists here have never heard of the Highway Code and do not think it is necessary either. Riding (and driving) standards here needs to be improved for safety reasons - sadly my dear, you're not qualified for this.

[Hili]

I have learned to ride bikes by myself in bkk due to this circumstance i think i have learned more any instructor would/ is able to teach. And within 9 years riding here i didn't had an accident; guess it worked out? Theories are theories but reality is reality, stop talking!

[BKKBike09]

@Carol.

"I think it's strange that in a country that values modesty, privacy and politeness that people seem to want to be so aggressive, up close and personal while out using the roads."

As in some other areas, appears you've got a lot to learn.

BTW - what about shorty levers? They should be banned, clearly, because you can't actually get four fingers on them.

It's a shame you're so dogmatic and thin-skinned because the resultant tone simply diminishes what you have to say.

[papa al]

"At the end of the day everything is open to ... debate."

"... it is not open for debate by anyone."

CD: I love the way you unabashedly contradict yourself.

[OmegaRacer]

I keep 2 fingers on the brake when riding in cities and higher risk situations.

I don't quite understand why that should be considered bad practice...in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter.

I never heard about broken fingers due to keeping the front brake covered...

After reading through 8 pages (of mostly childish nonsense, unfortunately), I'm still none the wiser.

Can we try to keep this civil without the stupid baiting, flaming and trolling. Thanks

[Shurup]

I need more popcorn.

[H1w4yR1da]

I was going to make a comment but this has turned into a more lower than usually low attack on a poster.

I'm a bit lost for words to be fair.

Yes dave -boo AA is a big boy for sure and he will defend himself as you say.

Problem for one slimy member is that he has taken it out into the real world to sort it.

Stay tuned.

Still tuned in. Care to elaborate?

[Carol Jadzia]

Wow, the discussion which solves nothing!!

Basically covering your brakes gives you a 5% bonus in stopping distance. At 100kmph that's 4.16 metres. That may well help as long as you are doing everything else 100% correct... If you can identify an emergency situation 10% faster than another rider you will stop 5% faster than them even if they are covering their brakes. There are so many complex factors that come together to formulate the safety equation. http://therideadvice.com/two-fingered-motorcycle-braking-save-life/

Riding in your comfort zone, being fully engaged in your riding, being fully aware of your surroundings, being confident in your ability to react to emergencies are all more important than the pedantic discussion of whether or not to cover your brakes.

More rubbish from people who don't know what they are talking about. Please show me some evidence of this?

Yes you may be able to grab the brakes quicker if your fingers are already on them. But that is only a small part of the story as there is a lot more going on.

But hey ho. Your the expert apparently. Well done.

I do agree with the last bit though. But you already shot yourself in the foot with all the garbage about covering the brakes. What a shame.

[ll2]

what is a riding manual?

now bikes come with a riding manual?

[Carol Jadzia]

You want to ride around in a manner where you need to constantly cover

Carol,

Fact is that you readily admitted that you've had a few accidents (when filtering through traffic, cars turning in front of you).

Fact is that a lot of posters here have been riding many years IN BANGKOK without such incidents.

I know whom I would rather learn from.

Fact is that you're not as good a rider as you think you are. Accept it. Live with it. Get over it.

You have not presented a single good argument as to why one should not cover their brakes when riding. Until you can come up with a valid reason (and please do not just post links to all and sundry - none of your links so far have addressed this point), you are nothing more that a self proclaimed expert rider. We have enough of these on this forum as it is.

Most of your riding has been in the UK where the average motorist is generally qualified to pilot a motor vehicle. Most motorists here have never heard of the Highway Code and do not think it is necessary either. Riding (and driving) standards here needs to be improved for safety reasons - sadly my dear, you're not qualified for this.

Sorry? You joking? You really have not got the foggiest have you?

Lets see now. 8 to 10 hours a day 7 days a week for 15 years. Lets just take that little snippet. Forget the rest of my life.

Please. is there anyone of your examples that has spent anything like that amount of time riding?

And another thing. This is not my method. I did not lay down the rules for emergency stops, or correct use of brakes or anything else mentioned here. This is standard practice. Taught in training schools all over the UK on a daily basis. You want to start talking about accident rates and comparisons do you? Really. Well thank you.

Thailand 38.1 92.4 n/a 26 312 2010

United Kingdom 3.5 6.2 4.3 2175 2012^[2]

United States of America 11.6 13.6 7.6 36 166 2012^[2]

These are the accident rates by country. For full breakdown follow the link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

So if you want to go for the country with the lowest road accident rate in the world then you going to find it very hard to beat the UK. Everyone here has to do a basic motorcycle training course before being allowed on the road. So until someone demonstrates to an instructor like myself that they know how to do an emergency stop without pulling the clutch in at the start and without trying to stupidly change down through the gears while trying to avoid killing someone. Then they will not be allowed on the road.

They must also demonstrate to their CBT instructor that they understand the 2 second rule for following other vehicles and that they should be gripping the handlebars under normal riding conditions. Not covering levers. We demonstrate, practice, all CBTers must do a 2 hour road ride. They all must demonstrate they know the basics (as I have stated here) before they will be allowed on the road. That's not just my school of training. That's anywhere in the UK. We all train to the same standards. Also similar standards across Europe.

But of course when we do a CBT we are hands on. Working on a training area. So we can demonstrate why we say to do things a certain way. Not me, We. The British Compulsory Basic Training course was not my work. I helped with is formation. But it is a standard training procedure that we are legally obliged to follow and that all riders who want a full British Licence must pass.

I have already stated I would hate to see Thailand as tightly legislated as the UK. But please don't try and tell me that you can do it better. Really? I Think I will stick with the training procedure that although evolving, has been best practice for over 50 years now and has been proven repeatedly in practice.

But of course this forum is full of experts that are going to tell me I am wrong.

Well when you start paying my wages then I will start worrying about it.

I have also for your information also ridden in Thailand and have many Thai biker friends who would also disagree with your views. But hey ho. Your the expert. Keep on thinking that it obviously helps.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Carol Jadzia

[Gweiloman]

Wow, the discussion which solves nothing!!

Basically covering your brakes gives you a 5% bonus in stopping distance. At 100kmph that's 4.16 metres. That may well help as long as you are doing everything else 100% correct... If you can identify an emergency situation 10% faster than another rider you will stop 5% faster than them even if they are covering their brakes. There are so many complex factors that come together to formulate the safety equation. http://therideadvice.com/two-fingered-motorcycle-braking-save-life/

Riding in your comfort zone, being fully engaged in your riding, being fully aware of your surroundings, being confident in your ability to react to emergencies are all more important than the pedantic discussion of whether or not to cover your brakes.

More rubbish from people who don't know what they are talking about. Please show me some evidence of this?

Yes you may be able to grab the brakes quicker if your fingers are already on them. But that is only a small part of the story as there is a lot more going on.

But hey ho. Your the expert apparently. Well done.

I do agree with the last bit though. But you already shot yourself in the foot with all the garbage about covering the brakes. What a shame.

"More rubbish from people who don't know what they are talking about. Please show me some evidence of this?"

Can you give us your expert opinion as to which part of the video in this post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799889-noob-questions-about-riding-manual/?p=9087168 is rubbish? This is the third time I'm asking. If you are not going to engage in civilised and adult discussion, you really should reconsider posting on this forum.

[Carol Jadzia]

"More rubbish from people who don't know what they are talking about. Please show me some evidence of this?"

Can you give us your expert opinion as to which part of the video in this post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799889-noob-questions-about-riding-manual/?p=9087168 is rubbish? This is the third time I'm asking. If you are not going to engage in civilised and adult discussion, you really should reconsider posting on this forum.

Sorry I missed the video.

But its blinkered rubbish.

Fine in their wonderful straight braking scenario, but fails under scrutiny.

First of all we are talking about a bike with ABS. So yes, some of the breaking we teach is not so important with ABS because it allows you to grab a load without worrying about locking up wheels. The same rules do not apply to most bikes on the road.

Also this is only half the story. Have you tried as I asked? To go and do this for yourself?

Get a friend to stand on the side of the road then, when safe, get them to put their hand up and you practice stopping as quick as you can. Go on, push it to the limit, so the rear wheel is lifting and your pushing the front to just before brake away. Then practice again in the wet. I have demonstrated and practised this thousands of times.

In all of the years I have trained I have repeatedly seen bull like this pop up. Experts saying they can do it better. Same as usual. When you put it in context with the bigger picture they all fall down.

I also mentioned the whole closing the throttle thing earlier as well. But that is something I have to demonstrate.

You try doing it this way, Please. Find out for yourself why. Rather than trying to pick holes in me. Try for yourself.

[Gweiloman]

You want to ride around in a manner where you need to constantly cover

Carol,

Fact is that you readily admitted that you've had a few accidents (when filtering through traffic, cars turning in front of you).

Fact is that a lot of posters here have been riding many years IN BANGKOK without such incidents.

I know whom I would rather learn from.

Fact is that you're not as good a rider as you think you are. Accept it. Live with it. Get over it.

You have not presented a single good argument as to why one should not cover their brakes when riding. Until you can come up with a valid reason (and please do not just post links to all and sundry - none of your links so far have addressed this point), you are nothing more that a self proclaimed expert rider. We have enough of these on this forum as it is.

Most of your riding has been in the UK where the average motorist is generally qualified to pilot a motor vehicle. Most motorists here have never heard of the Highway Code and do not think it is necessary either. Riding (and driving) standards here needs to be improved for safety reasons - sadly my dear, you're not qualified for this.

Sorry? You joking? You really have not got the foggiest have you?

Lets see now. 8 to 10 hours a day 7 days a week for 15 years. Lets just take that little snippet. Forget the rest of my life.

Please. is there anyone of your examples that has spent anything like that amount of time riding?

And another thing. This is not my method. I did not lay down the rules for emergency stops, or correct use of brakes or anything else mentioned here. This is standard practice. Taught in training schools all over the UK on a daily basis. You want to start talking about accident rates and comparisons do you? Really. Well thank you.

Thailand 38.1 92.4 n/a 26 312 2010

United Kingdom 3.5 6.2 4.3 2175 2012^[2]

United States of America 11.6 13.6 7.6 36 166 2012^[2]

These are the accident rates by country. For full breakdown follow the link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

So if you want to go for the country with the lowest road accident rate in the world then you going to find it very hard to beat the UK. Everyone here has to do a basic motorcycle training course before being allowed on the road. So until someone demonstrates to an instructor like myself that they know how to do an emergency stop without pulling the clutch in at the start and without trying to stupidly change down through the gears while trying to avoid killing someone. Then they will not be allowed on the road.

They must also demonstrate to their CBT instructor that they understand the 2 second rule for following other vehicles and that they should be gripping the handlebars under normal riding conditions. Not covering levers. We demonstrate, practice, all CBTers must do a 2 hour road ride. They all must demonstrate they know the basics (as I have stated here) before they will be allowed on the road. That's not just my school of training. That's anywhere in the UK. We all train to the same standards. Also similar standards across Europe.

But of course when we do a CBT we are hands on. Working on a training area. So we can demonstrate why we say to do things a certain way. Not me, We. The British Compulsory Basic Training course was not my work. I helped with is formation. But it is a standard training procedure that we are legally obliged to follow and that all riders who want a full British Licence must pass.

I have already stated I would hate to see Thailand as tightly legislated as the UK. But please don't try and tell me that you can do it better. Really? I Think I will stick with the training procedure that although evolving, has been best practice for over 50 years now and has been proven repeatedly in practice.

But of course this forum is full of experts that are going to tell me I am wrong.

Well when you start paying my wages then I will start worrying about it.

I have also for your information also ridden in Thailand and have many Thai biker friends who would also disagree with your views. But hey ho. Your the expert. Keep on thinking that it obviously helps.

Ending your post with rolling on the floor laughing emoticon - how cute.

Accident rates don't mean jacksh*t in the context of the current discussion. Most if not all of us here know full well how much more dangerous it is to ride in this country compared to most Western countries. Driving standards are abysmal. A lot of the motorists out there are not in possession of a licence nor would they ever be granted one if they had to take western style driving exams. However, you seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush - if so, you are sadly wrong.

Are you actually saying that a motorcyclist would fail their riding test IF they wrote with their fingers covering the front brakes? I find that quite hard to believe and would appreciate a direct link to this particular issue.

Strangely enough though, I also have many Thai and farang biker friends and they don't disagree with my views. We obviously don't have the same biker friends, thank god.

The other 98% of your post is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[Gweiloman]

"More rubbish from people who don't know what they are talking about. Please show me some evidence of this?"

Can you give us your expert opinion as to which part of the video in this post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799889-noob-questions-about-riding-manual/?p=9087168 is rubbish? This is the third time I'm asking. If you are not going to engage in civilised and adult discussion, you really should reconsider posting on this forum.

Sorry I missed the video.

But its blinkered rubbish.

Fine in their wonderful straight braking scenario, but fails under scrutiny.

First of all we are talking about a bike with ABS. So yes, some of the breaking we teach is not so important with ABS because it allows you to grab a load without worrying about locking up wheels. The same rules do not apply to most bikes on the road.

Also this is only half the story. Have you tried as I asked? To go and do this for yourself?

Get a friend to stand on the side of the road then, when safe, get them to put their hand up and you practice stopping as quick as you can. Go on, push it to the limit, so the rear wheel is lifting and your pushing the front to just before brake away. Then practice again in the wet. I have demonstrated and practised this thousands of times.

In all of the years I have trained I have repeatedly seen bull like this pop up. Experts saying they can do it better. Same as usual. When you put it in context with the bigger picture they all fall down.

I also mentioned the whole closing the throttle thing earlier as well. But that is something I have to demonstrate.

You try doing it this way, Please. Find out for yourself why. Rather than trying to pick holes in me. Try for yourself.

You really don't realise how ridiculous you sound do you? Or is it that you have completely misunderstood what the discussion has been all about?

Reaction time is reaction time, whether you are going in a straight line or turning left or right or braking, whether a bike has ABS or not. The simple indisputable fact about covering your brakes is that you can start braking EARLIER than if you had all four fingers wrapped around the throttle.

With regards to closing the throttle, is there something wrong with your right hand that you are unable to brake AND close the throttle at the same time? By braking with my index and middle finger, my wrist automatically rotates forward thus closing the throttle at the same instance.

You mentioned being taken out by other motorists when splitting lanes or them turning in front of you. If you had been able to REACT and BRAKE quicker, you may have been able to stop in time thus avoiding the crash.

p/s: no one is questioning your riding prowess. But I think you stand alone here when you say that it is WRONG to cover the brakes when riding.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Gweiloman

[Carol Jadzia]

Ending your post with rolling on the floor laughing emoticon - how cute.

Accident rates don't mean jacksh*t in the context of the current discussion. Most if not all of us here know full well how much more dangerous it is to ride in this country compared to most Western countries. Driving standards are abysmal. A lot of the motorists out there are not in possession of a licence nor would they ever be granted one if they had to take western style driving exams. However, you seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush - if so, you are sadly wrong.

Are you actually saying that a motorcyclist would fail their riding test IF they wrote with their fingers covering the front brakes? I find that quite hard to believe and would appreciate a direct link to this particular issue.

Strangely enough though, I also have many Thai and farang biker friends and they don't disagree with my views. We obviously don't have the same biker friends, thank god.

The other 98% of your post is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

No I don't tar all with the same brush. I have many Thai Biker Friends (some who have been following this thread with great amusement) . I love riding in Thailand. I just hate people who spout garbage in relation to motorcycle training.

It does not matter to me what you think. So what? Good for you. Your the expert. Same as anyone who has passed a basic skills test. Well no. I rate the bikers who have managed to survive. Full respect to my brothers and sisters who have not. But anyone who can ride a motorcycle regularly every day for over a couple of years will get my respect. The longer they survive the more respect I will give. To those that survive in Thailand then even more respect is due.

However this thread was about advice to newbies and most of what I have seen posted here has been rubbish.

That's not because I am promoting my training scheme because I am not. Just I spent many years training to a system that has been proved to work and has evolved into a standard of basic good practice. I will consider any challenges to this system as we always have. However there is nothing here that is in any way a threat to the current state of play.

All I have seen here is unfounded ideas, people trying to get internet hits for their unfounded ideas, plenty of the same 'Experts' I have spent the last 30 years dealing with and the same poor arguments that the 'Experts' keep liking to quote.

No I have not got a link to the actual text that says "you will fail your test for covering the brake" what am I now being challenged as an instructor? You get another for that, No I just like winding people up for the fun of it! This is all rubbish. You do it your way. You are obviously far better and more experienced than me.

The following are other peoples opinions as well. Not that they will give you the answers you need here.

We charge for training. Experts on a forum can do their own research. You prove me wrong.

http://lightningpass.com/how-fail-your-test-1

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405673/dl25-driving-test-report-form.pdf

Out of date now, new rules, but this gives an idea of the British test http://think.direct.gov.uk/assets/pdf/dg_195228.pdf

[macknife]

After all this I still don't know why I can't cover my brakes.

Apart from Carol is there anyone here that passed their test(after professional instruction) in a western or Australian country, where they were told they should never cover their brakes and was any reason given?

[dave_boo]

Sorry? You joking? You really have not got the foggiest have you?

Lets see now. 8 to 10 hours a day 7 days a week for 15 years. Lets just take that little snippet. Forget the rest of my life.

Please. is there anyone of your examples that has spent anything like that amount of time riding?

And another thing. This is not my method. I did not lay down the rules for emergency stops, or correct use of brakes or anything else mentioned here. This is standard practice. Taught in training schools all over the UK on a daily basis. You want to start talking about accident rates and comparisons do you? Really. Well thank you.

Thailand 38.1 92.4 n/a 26 312 2010

United Kingdom 3.5 6.2 4.3 2175 2012^[2]

United States of America 11.6 13.6 7.6 36 166 2012^[2]

These are the accident rates by country. For full breakdown follow the link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

So if you want to go for the country with the lowest road accident rate in the world then you going to find it very hard to beat the UK. Everyone here has to do a basic motorcycle training course before being allowed on the road. So until someone demonstrates to an instructor like myself that they know how to do an emergency stop without pulling the clutch in at the start and without trying to stupidly change down through the gears while trying to avoid killing someone. Then they will not be allowed on the road.

They must also demonstrate to their CBT instructor that they understand the 2 second rule for following other vehicles and that they should be gripping the handlebars under normal riding conditions. Not covering levers. We demonstrate, practice, all CBTers must do a 2 hour road ride. They all must demonstrate they know the basics (as I have stated here) before they will be allowed on the road. That's not just my school of training. That's anywhere in the UK. We all train to the same standards. Also similar standards across Europe.

But of course when we do a CBT we are hands on. Working on a training area. So we can demonstrate why we say to do things a certain way. Not me, We. The British Compulsory Basic Training course was not my work. I helped with is formation. But it is a standard training procedure that we are legally obliged to follow and that all riders who want a full British Licence must pass.

I have already stated I would hate to see Thailand as tightly legislated as the UK. But please don't try and tell me that you can do it better. Really? I Think I will stick with the training procedure that although evolving, has been best practice for over 50 years now and has been proven repeatedly in practice.

But of course this forum is full of experts that are going to tell me I am wrong.

Well when you start paying my wages then I will start worrying about it.

I have also for your information also ridden in Thailand and have many Thai biker friends who would also disagree with your views. But hey ho. Your the expert. Keep on thinking that it obviously helps.

In defense of USA, it's more informative to look at the 'per billion km drove'. And its ranking sure tumbles (and the UK's rises) in that to 7.6 and 4.3 respectively.

**edit**

It's..its...whatever.

Edited February 23, 2015 by dave_boo

[Gweiloman]

After all this I still don't know why I can't cover my brakes.

Apart from Carol is there anyone here that passed their test(after professional instruction) in a western or Australian country, where they were told they should never cover their brakes and was any reason given?

Hahahaha. Exactly macknife.

I (and most riders I know, who incidentally, are still alive) cover our brakes when riding, ESPECIALLY in Bangkok city traffic where a million or more unexpected things can pop out from behind cars, buses, trucks, sois and what have you. Along comes an UK instructor (incidentally, I have a UK driving licence as well) who tells us that it's WRONG!! It's BAD PRACTICE!!

But despite repeated requests for clarifications (as most of us here would like to improve our skills and roadcraft), all we get are further insults and put downs.

Oh well, happens in most online forums.