Claims of torture over Bangkok court attack materialise

[Acharn]

Why would they not torture somebody? Recent cases where the police used torture to gain a false confession have been praised from top brass as being "perfect cases" and the violent policemen have been "richly rewarded". Setting torture as the standard to be followed if investigators want to bask in the afterglow of Somyot's praise. This should have all been thought about 6 months ago - as 99% of TVF members were rightly pointing out.

Yup. One of the things that contributed to the low level of crime (other than political crimes) under Field Marshall Sarit was the common belief that the police, under the direction of Pol. Gen. Phao Sarasin, who controlled the opium trade and the lottery, had specially equipped torture chambers in each police station. They were reputed to be especially harsh on people of Chinese ancestry.

I might add that 65% of Americans approve of torture. I'm not one of them.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Acharn

[Fat Haggis]

Uncle Rubs, I just don't see how one can be critical of certain places if they have never been there, it's very differnt for the locals compared to the "guests".

I lived in Chile for 6 months in the early 90s and it was one of the most stunning and friendliest places I've ever been to.

Sure it was different under Pinochet, but like most places that had dictators, the local population kept their heads down and their mouths shut!!

A concept many here can't figure out. The Thais are no different really, those who opt for the quiet and simple life do so, they keep their opinions and views to themselves as it is so easy these days for " he said/she said" and stick people in, it happens all the time in Iraq when people are spiteful and vindictive, and under the current situation look how many Thais are being held for LM.

[rubl]

Uncle Rubs, I just don't see how one can be critical of certain places if they have never been there, it's very differnt for the locals compared to the "guests".

I lived in Chile for 6 months in the early 90s and it was one of the most stunning and friendliest places I've ever been to.

Sure it was different under Pinochet, but like most places that had dictators, the local population kept their heads down and their mouths shut!!

A concept many here can't figure out. The Thais are no different really, those who opt for the quiet and simple life do so, they keep their opinions and views to themselves as it is so easy these days for " he said/she said" and stick people in, it happens all the time in Iraq when people are spiteful and vindictive, and under the current situation look how many Thais are being held for LM.

I agree with that, and as you say even living in a country for a few months doesn't mean one has a complete understanding of what's going on. Even being able to read and understand the local language may not help much. Certainly social media (even if relatively free) can only give an impression, and mostly that Thais are just as prone to gossip and subjective news as other people elsewhere.

As for your LM question, I think a month ago an NGO or Human Rights group said 25 or 32 (both only charged and already convicted)

[elgordo38]

"I am confident that there's no reason for the officers to coerce," said Winthai,adding that the NCPO was acting under international norms

My guess is that it is truly possible to find other countries which use the same 'norms'

But that wouldn't put this 'government' in a good light...

and the clown car rolls on...

Must have used a Bangkok phone book to the kidneys. Check his skin for a yellowish tinge.

[geriatrickid]

Thailand must have the highest number of "confessions" in the world.

...........and the highest number of 'Human Right's' induced claims of people being tortured!!!

Wonder if the 2,500 extra judicial execution victims in the infamous "war on drugs" were tortured into confessing first; or just simply shot?

And whose watch was that on again?

The army was in control of the operation. Ever wonder, why Thaksin was cleared and why the allegations went nowhere?

If Thaksin was the guilty culprit you claim, why didn't the military junta that over threw him bring charges? Why couldn't Abhisit act? Why hasn't the current military regime opened the file? Surely, if he was a s guilty as you insists, what better way to get rid of him than to charge him? You know the answer, but you don't want to admit it. The country was in a state of apprehended insurrection by narco gangs who had corrupted the police, judiciary and government in the regions where the drug gangs were fought. Innocent people died as they do in any fight against narco criminal gangs, as we have seen in Mexico, Columbia, Panama etc.

[MaiChai]

A lot of people see things as black and white. Eg reds are right junta wrong, etc. The reality is that there are abuses on both sides. I prefer the stability we have with the junta but it concerns me that they are accountable to no one and can do what they want. The general is trying to do the right things but then how is the right achieved quickly bypassing the checks and controls? I think the answer is that smaller abuses occur to achieve the 'right' goal? So who is right and wrong? Compare Yingluck government versus current government. I will stick with junta for now: stability and security versus protests, lawlessness, guns, bombs, grenades and lack of safety. No one wants to be in the crossfire and die, right?

[geriatrickid]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

I am not twisting any facts, I am stating an opinion that I do not believe the images you showed demonstrate that there was any torture. The image that you showed did not show bruising as far as I could tell. It looks like he has a rash to me. That is my opinion, and not facts.

I believe you are twisting the facts. You are talking about the "fact" that the "victim" is "bruised". I do not think this is a fact, because I don't see any bruising; I think this is your opinion, which I expect is twisted for political reason, like most of your posts. You, sir, are a hypocrite... there's a fact for you.

Others are able to form their own opinion by clicking on your link. I won't attack them for forming their own opinion... will you?

No need to have an argument, if the proper procedure of a full exam had been conducted. I suggest that the exam was intentionally forgone. Anything observed was not noted, intentionally. There is a reason why police forces in much of the world where abuse is illegal photograph suspects when taken into custody. It is intended to counter false allegations. The failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance speaks volumes.

[geriatrickid]

The surest method of finding the truth here would be to rush in one or two foreign experts. That should clear this issue once and for all.

Interesting that the Thai Human Rights Lawyers only submitted a letter to the warden of Bangkok Remand Prison to request an independent medical examination to be conducted on the suspects to verify an allegation of torture while under military custody. Of course a lawyer has to do what is in his abilities to do for the person he defends, but I would have expected more.

The warden has legal custody of the prisoner and is responsible that prisoner's safe keeping. The warden is where the baht stops. What would a letter to any other official achieve, as the argument would be that they are not the legal custodian and have no control at this time. The warden is the right person to receive the request.

[mikemac]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

You must be ever so desperate to paint the current government/Military in a dim light, posting a link to that low-life red propaganda site. Full of good old anti-Junta and forbidden Monarchy related material.

Good luck with that.

[Alwyn]

The real question here is: To what extent should suspects willing to injure or kill members of the public be protected by standard-rights normally given to suspects??

If torture was indeed used, it might have saved lives!!

It's well known that people will confess to anything under extreme duress from torture which is why normal countries don't bother with torture in this day and age. Leverage is the best way but can take time and patience (and experience of course)

[Pi Sek]

Londonthai says... there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

Pi Sek says... That's evidence? He claims "he was slapped on the face, punched on the base on the sternum and in the ribs, trampled on, and electrocuted on his thighs. He was electrocuted almost 40 times, he recounted."

I call bullshit, because this "evidence" shows more proof of not washing than any form of abuse. He should have been more clever and said he'd been waterboarded or denied sleep or something else that doesn't need to show injuries. But then, he follows up description of his "brutal abuse" (that seems to have given him about 10 pimple-size rashes over his torso and legs) with "I support and admire Sinn Féin, Martin Luther King. I don’t believe in violence." Obviously thick as two planks.

but he wasn't water boarded or denied sleep, he was punched in the stomach, ribs, solar plexus, kicked, slapped on the face, trampled.

bruises on the abdomen and burned wounds on the legs are not from not washing. You are trying to twist the facts for political reason

I am not twisting any facts, I am stating an opinion that I do not believe the images you showed demonstrate that there was any torture. The image that you showed did not show bruising as far as I could tell. It looks like he has a rash to me. That is my opinion, and not facts.

I believe you are twisting the facts. You are talking about the "fact" that the "victim" is "bruised". I do not think this is a fact, because I don't see any bruising; I think this is your opinion, which I expect is twisted for political reason, like most of your posts. You, sir, are a hypocrite... there's a fact for you.

Others are able to form their own opinion by clicking on your link. I won't attack them for forming their own opinion... will you?

No need to have an argument, if the proper procedure of a full exam had been conducted. I suggest that the exam was intentionally forgone. Anything observed was not noted, intentionally. There is a reason why police forces in much of the world where abuse is illegal photograph suspects when taken into custody. It is intended to counter false allegations. The failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance speaks volumes.

Your post is very fair, and you're right that there's no need to have an argument (regardless of whether any particular procedure was followed or not). However, I see intentionally misrepresenting the truth (lying) as one of the more odious sins, so I don't like lies in principle; and when someone suggests I am twisting the truth, they are suggesting I am lying and I will take offence if, on reflection, I am not. And when they are twisting the truth, then you can expect me to point this out as I did rather indignantly above. But I stand by my comment.

I agree that in an ideal world, pictorial evidence would be recorded upon arrest and after release... but I can tell you this rarely happens in Thailand, and I'm not even sure if it is "proper procedure". There is a form saying you weren't abused that you're required to sign as you're released from the holding cell and formally indicted at court instead. None of those in that situation whom I know refused to sign this form, so I can't say anything about what might happen if someone objected to this.

You are right, the failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance does speaks volumes... but what does it speak volumes about?

Nonetheless, you have your opinion that the exam was intentionally foregone and are entitled to it khrap-phom. Kudos for not trying to misrepresent this as a fact, unlike some of our less ethical members.

[than]

there are pix as an evidence http://prachatai.org/english/node/4880

Londonthai, be serious please take time to check internet about electric torture and you will see that damage cause on body was not like this "evidence"

Damage are more important that you cannot hided this from medical check......

This is just another pathetic tactics from pathetic lawyers and red shirts....

1/ red shirts always show us like victims but evidence and History show us the contrary.

2/ Their lawyers are the same who defend Kho Tao murders and they claimed the same thing in beginning of investigation, the same investigation backed by British police

3/ prachatai was a propaganda tools of red shirts movement, not real journalist

Edited March 20, 2015 by than

[cumgranosalum]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

If this is true then it was true before the present government.

So you are saying it's OK under the current regime because the previous government did it?

[MiKT]

Whatever methods the police have used here, I am quite certain they are behaving better than they under Chalerm where they knew they had complete immunity from investigation.

I see the usual hypocrites on here are crying foul after the red-shirts and the disgracefully biased "HRC" of Thailand made predictable allegations. If you people had made similar comments during Pheu-Thai's time in office when Chalerm predicted the crime on day one then slammed the case shut on day two after full confessions, maybe some of us would listen to you.

Like I keep saying, the Junta is a bad choice from worse options. Nobody is saying they are whiter than white, but they are a step up from that last dirty bunch.

You claim: "Never argue with an Idiot"

Not much point in arguing with your post then!

[cumgranosalum]

I am not twisting any facts, I am stating an opinion that I do not believe the images you showed demonstrate that there was any torture. The image that you showed did not show bruising as far as I could tell. It looks like he has a rash to me. That is my opinion, and not facts.

I believe you are twisting the facts. You are talking about the "fact" that the "victim" is "bruised". I do not think this is a fact, because I don't see any bruising; I think this is your opinion, which I expect is twisted for political reason, like most of your posts. You, sir, are a hypocrite... there's a fact for you.

Others are able to form their own opinion by clicking on your link. I won't attack them for forming their own opinion... will you?

No need to have an argument, if the proper procedure of a full exam had been conducted. I suggest that the exam was intentionally forgone. Anything observed was not noted, intentionally. There is a reason why police forces in much of the world where abuse is illegal photograph suspects when taken into custody. It is intended to counter false allegations. The failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance speaks volumes.

Your post is very fair, and you're right that there's no need to have an argument (regardless of whether any particular procedure was followed or not). However, I see intentionally misrepresenting the truth (lying) as one of the more odious sins, so I don't like lies in principle; and when someone suggests I am twisting the truth, they are suggesting I am lying and I will take offence if, on reflection, I am not. And when they are twisting the truth, then you can expect me to point this out as I did rather indignantly above. But I stand by my comment.

I agree that in an ideal world, pictorial evidence would be recorded upon arrest and after release... but I can tell you this rarely happens in Thailand, and I'm not even sure if it is "proper procedure". There is a form saying you weren't abused that you're required to sign as you're released from the holding cell and formally indicted at court instead. None of those in that situation whom I know refused to sign this form, so I can't say anything about what might happen if someone objected to this.

You are right, the failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance does speaks volumes... but what does it speak volumes about?

Nonetheless, you have your opinion that the exam was intentionally foregone and are entitled to it khrap-phom. Kudos for not trying to misrepresent this as a fact, unlike some of our less ethical members.

"pictorial evidence" - I suppose you are suggesting the camera never lies? - In evidence seeing is most definitely NOT believing.

Allegations of torture are confirmed or allayed by a proper, unbiased inquiry - something that is simply not possible in Thailand given the relationships between judiciary legislative and executive in this country.

[rubl]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

If this is true then it was true before the present government.

So you are saying it's OK under the current regime because the previous government did it?

More that is seems part of the system for a long time already.

Of course, we still don't know much for this case. Just like the case of the lady who 'fled the country' and may have asked political asylum somewhere.

Edited March 20, 2015 by rubl

[Pi Sek]

No need to have an argument, if the proper procedure of a full exam had been conducted. I suggest that the exam was intentionally forgone. Anything observed was not noted, intentionally. There is a reason why police forces in much of the world where abuse is illegal photograph suspects when taken into custody. It is intended to counter false allegations. The failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance speaks volumes.

Your post is very fair, and you're right that there's no need to have an argument (regardless of whether any particular procedure was followed or not). However, I see intentionally misrepresenting the truth (lying) as one of the more odious sins, so I don't like lies in principle; and when someone suggests I am twisting the truth, they are suggesting I am lying and I will take offence if, on reflection, I am not. And when they are twisting the truth, then you can expect me to point this out as I did rather indignantly above. But I stand by my comment.

I agree that in an ideal world, pictorial evidence would be recorded upon arrest and after release... but I can tell you this rarely happens in Thailand, and I'm not even sure if it is "proper procedure". There is a form saying you weren't abused that you're required to sign as you're released from the holding cell and formally indicted at court instead. None of those in that situation whom I know refused to sign this form, so I can't say anything about what might happen if someone objected to this.

You are right, the failure to document the intake procedure on a prisoner of this importance does speaks volumes... but what does it speak volumes about?

Nonetheless, you have your opinion that the exam was intentionally foregone and are entitled to it khrap-phom. Kudos for not trying to misrepresent this as a fact, unlike some of our less ethical members.

"pictorial evidence" - I suppose you are suggesting the camera never lies? - In evidence seeing is most definitely NOT believing.

Allegations of torture are confirmed or allayed by a proper, unbiased inquiry - something that is simply not possible in Thailand given the relationships between judiciary legislative and executive in this country.

No I'm not suggesting that, but I agree with GeriatricKid that it's probably better to have pictorial evidence than not. "Payan lai bak di-kwa mai mi payan" - it's better to have lots of documented evidence than none.

[Fat Haggis]

Pictures can and have often been manipulated through photoshop, and passed into MSM so pictorial evidence isn't enough these days

[jesimps]

Whatever methods the police have used here, I am quite certain they are behaving better than they under Chalerm where they knew they had complete immunity from investigation.

I see the usual hypocrites on here are crying foul after the red-shirts and the disgracefully biased "HRC" of Thailand made predictable allegations. If you people had made similar comments during Pheu-Thai's time in office when Chalerm predicted the crime on day one then slammed the case shut on day two after full confessions, maybe some of us would listen to you.

Like I keep saying, the Junta is a bad choice from worse options. Nobody is saying they are whiter than white, but they are a step up from that last dirty bunch.

Almost always, in making a reply to a post critical of the junta, it's followers on here harp on about the PTP, Thaksin, Yingluck or in this case Chalerm. This is just one in a long line of juntas, most of which were before Thaksin/PTP's time. I'd be grateful if you lot would stick to replying to the current thread (to which you obviously can't think of a reasonable comment), not constantly referring to your favourite party.

Edited March 20, 2015 by jesimps

[aaacorp]

i bet the Junta will torture people who say the Junta torture people to make them say they don't torture...or soemthing like that

[rubl]

Whatever methods the police have used here, I am quite certain they are behaving better than they under Chalerm where they knew they had complete immunity from investigation.

I see the usual hypocrites on here are crying foul after the red-shirts and the disgracefully biased "HRC" of Thailand made predictable allegations. If you people had made similar comments during Pheu-Thai's time in office when Chalerm predicted the crime on day one then slammed the case shut on day two after full confessions, maybe some of us would listen to you.

Like I keep saying, the Junta is a bad choice from worse options. Nobody is saying they are whiter than white, but they are a step up from that last dirty bunch.

Almost always, in making a reply to a post critical of the junta, it's followers on here harp on about the PTP, Thaksin, Yingluck or in this case Chalerm. This is just one in a long line of juntas, most of which were before Thaksin/PTP's time. I'd be grateful if you lot would stick to replying to the current thread (to which you obviously can't think of a reasonable comment), not constantly referring to your favourite party.

and when one sticks to the topic of 'claims materialise' some start with how much better it was under the previous government which of course just happens to be the Yingluck government which has fanatical defenders who, allegedly, have no problem defending their cause with grenades.

So, now that claims materialised, will all next 'accused' be forced to be paraded around naked to ensure that all can see they have no mosquito bites, or would that be against human dignity?

[tbthailand]

The Junta congratulated and rewarded police for obtaining confessions from accused in another case even tho it was tortured out of them.

More bloody lies and crap from the Junta just like we don't have political prisoners, now revealed they have around 1,000. What fool would believe a single word this Junta says. They are pissing on the country and saying it is raining, nothing to worry about.

... "Rubl"

[tbthailand]

i bet the Junta will torture people who say the Junta torture people to make them say they don't torture...or soemthing like that

already has happened...

remember the detainee in June who was released after nearly a month in custody? Trotted out for the cameras with her boyfriend saying that she was "happier than words could tell"... ??

[tbthailand]

The Junta now has a history of lying to the people on such matters. Now they turn to martial law to shut up those who want the people to know what is going on behind the scenes.

And your proof is where?

Oh yes, you haven't got any, just an opinion that happens to support your political bias.

One side uses martial law, the other side uses defamation law to shut people up. Same same but different.

I have to wonder how much information you have about Thailand... the Thai military has decades and decades of history where they have engaged in torture...

Even since the 'intervention' there have been many cases of alleged torture. This is SOP for the military.

[tbthailand]

Typists here once again slag on current govt with big gobs of irrationality.

In REAL repressive coup-based governments around the world........

-previous office holders are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-people i.d. as possible enemies are rounded up and shot or jailed for life.

-suspects are just beaten to death during questioning.

-the new govt in these OTHER places rounds up foreigners and either shoots them or deports them, especially those who write negatively on thaivisa.

You typists are spoiled babies being coddled by a mild and balanced current Thai government. In a case of REAL REPRESSION and takeover, all you typists right now would be, instead, drumming your swollen fingers on your cell wall or holding your silly heads after the heads met with the telephone book, moving fast.... or the cattle prod applied to your bum opening.

Take a look at Chile, Honduras, Salvador, Argentina, or Sudan.... and then there is VN, Pol Pot, Cambodia and Burma.... all have had a period of textbook case repression. THOSE are repressive governments; Thailand is an ice cream social.

"it could be so much worse"

what an intellectually stimulating argument...

but what is your point? I really don't get it. It's like you want to say that this kind of 'intervention' and repression is OK because they didn't execute Yingluck...

[Myshkin]

Unbelievable!!

The Thaivisa hypocrites are out in full force defending terrorists!!

Hope you and your family don't get killed by a grenade thrown by someone, who got off, because the police/army were to soft on them!!

I did not see anybody defending terrorists, this thread is about the alleged use of torture by authorities. Don't get your facts mixed up!

[sweatalot]

Being held illegally, deprivation, torture and beatings for confessions, all part of the legal system here in Thailand

Absolute denials by authorities that this ever occurs....all part of the system as well.......!

If this is true then it was true before the present government.

So you are saying it's OK under the current regime because the previous government did it?

No. I am saying it is politically motivated, sinister and demagogic to blame the present government and overlook happily the sins of the crooky government before.

But may be there is a little bit of a clandestine joy when these things happen to the group of this ousted government. Only may be.

[rubl]

The Junta now has a history of lying to the people on such matters. Now they turn to martial law to shut up those who want the people to know what is going on behind the scenes.

And your proof is where?

Oh yes, you haven't got any, just an opinion that happens to support your political bias.

One side uses martial law, the other side uses defamation law to shut people up. Same same but different.

I have to wonder how much information you have about Thailand... the Thai military has decades and decades of history where they have engaged in torture...

Even since the 'intervention' there have been many cases of alleged torture. This is SOP for the military.

Ever since the coup we've heard many cases of alleged torture especially on open social media outlets, but nothing has emerged in details. Now and here we have 'claims materialise', but no more. The lady who fled the country and may or may not have applied for political asylum somewhere seems awfully quiet.

If we were to believe in the modern times of facebook and other nonsense I would still be digging at Rayong, I fear.

[rubl]

i bet the Junta will torture people who say the Junta torture people to make them say they don't torture...or soemthing like that

already has happened...

remember the detainee in June who was released after nearly a month in custody? Trotted out for the cameras with her boyfriend saying that she was "happier than words could tell"... ??

Fled the country and seems awfully quiet at the moment. Did she apply for Political Asylum and have to remain silent till her application has been approved?

BTW easy to tell, but any real proof as acceptable in court (in Thailand or outside) seems sadly lacking.

So, claims have materialised. Let's wait for a bit more than just claims.

[rubl]

The Junta congratulated and rewarded police for obtaining confessions from accused in another case even tho it was tortured out of them.

More bloody lies and crap from the Junta just like we don't have political prisoners, now revealed they have around 1,000. What fool would believe a single word this Junta says. They are pissing on the country and saying it is raining, nothing to worry about.

... "Rubl"

Yes, young master TB, did you require my expert advise?

I think chooka suggests the Police may have been guilty (this time). No proof of that. All we have is 'claims materialising'.

BTW the CDC chap was talking about 700 or so political prisoners, but he didn't say how he came to the figure. Somehow I also doubt he will be able to. Furthermore keep in mind that the term 'political prisoner' seems to be used as casually as 'political crimes', or ;political motivated accusations'.

01:15AM, time to go sleep.

Good Night Youngster,

uncle rub'