Webworker confusion - complete contradiction!

[rwdrwdrwd]

[... related threads deleted due to being buggered up by following poster...]

It is absolutely on topic and in context. The obvious point is that 'exerting energy' is not necessarily 'work', and that the legal definition is as much use as a chocolate teapot. So why bother even bringing it up? If 'work' means 'exerting energy' It LITERALLY covers breathing, I am not overdramatising.

You brought it up and intimated that because people earning money online were exerting energy, they are working. Everybody alive in Thailand is exerting energy, so either everybody is working, or 'exerting energy' as a definition is a vast oversimplification. In fact the law also says 'or using knowledge, whether for pay or benefits or not' not that this adds any clarity.

Neither is my retort to another poster who claimed "try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant." irrelevant. I have in the past, thousands (at least) are right now, I have never seen a single prosecution for this internationally, and my reply is wholly relevant to the assertion the poster made.

The quote from the Phuket official is interesting- first time I have seen any granular assessment - of course they are not a judge (though they can send you to one), and it's a single province. Will be interesting to see if anyone ends up in court.

Painting a picture is exerting energy.

Painting a fence is exerting energy.

Driving a car is exerting energy.

Driving a taxi is exerting energy.

When taken out of context (that you appear apt to do), all of the above can be construed as work or like breathing and shitting... if we use your rather broad classification.

However, if you are painting a picture because it is your hobby then who cares? What is totally different is painting a fence, either for financial gain or because it is your fence as you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

If you drive your wife to the airport, that's exerting effort but it isn't work at all. Now, if you pick up your mates at the airport and charge them a tenner each, then you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

Still with me? Good.

The fact that European countries don't give a toss that you have patched some code in your hotel room, poolside at your mate's house or waiting in the lounge for your flight out IS irrelevant because.... now don't miss this important bit, IT IS NOT THAILAND.

Thailand is the land that has finessed the 'path of least resistance'. If someone at the Labour Office wanted to get specific with exactly what kinds of work are prohibited, they could have pages and pages of occupations versus the paltry 3 score and 10 or so that have been on the statutes for decades. It's an easy-out and it's their country so why should we get all uppity when they refuse to be drawn into anything that resembles logic, reason and sense?

This IS Thailand at it's very, very best.

I'm not taking anything out of context - the law is as it is written. The irony is that YOU are the taking it out of context, quite literally, by embellishing a very simple legal statement that offers no advice beyond work being 'exerting effort', with a hypothetical and entirely arbitrary interpretation that excludes some activities but not others.

This YOUR OPINION of how the letter of the law should be interpreted - you are, correct me if I am wrong, not a judge, and whatever personal embellished logic you wish to pile on top of the simple short definition of 'work' when you read it is entirely up to you, but it's not THE INTERPRETATION.

I am not trolling here, you are making assertions regarding how Thai Employment law is interpreted based purely upon YOUR OPINION of how it should/would be interpreted.

I do not think that driving a car, painting a picture, or breathing should be considered to be 'work', however this is simply MY OPINION.

However, if you are painting a picture because it is your hobby then who cares? What is totally different is painting a fence, either for financial gain or because it is your fence as you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

This is opinion. It is not the law.

If you drive your wife to the airport, that's exerting effort but it isn't work at all. Now, if you pick up your mates at the airport and charge them a tenner each, then you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

This is also opinion, and is also not the law.

In short, the LAW says that work can consist of 'exerting energy' or 'using knowledge'. Unless you are a judge, you are not in a position to determine which specific subset of 'energy exertion' or which subset of 'use of knowledge' is against regulations.

As for the relevance of my comment regarding the ability of people to travel and work in the west, this was IN DIRECT RESPONSE to somebody who ASSERTED that nobody could do so, and as such is RELEVANT

Christ almighty...

@nzexpat, I agree - 'a sensible interpretation of the "rules" is the key!' - the point is that whatever anybody aside from a judge considers to be a 'sensible interpretation' is entirely irrelevant, and as such making assertions about what is OK and what is not OK is both dangerous and incorrect.

Edited March 21, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[RubberBroke]

Someone better arrest me. Reading this thread was a lot of 'work'!

[soundman]

There have been numerous reports of off topic non-nonsensical posting. Please settle down, debate rationally and post in a civil manner. Thanks.

[ColdSingha]

[... related threads deleted due to being buggered up by following poster...]

It is absolutely on topic and in context. The obvious point is that 'exerting energy' is not necessarily 'work', and that the legal definition is as much use as a chocolate teapot. So why bother even bringing it up? If 'work' means 'exerting energy' It LITERALLY covers breathing, I am not overdramatising.

You brought it up and intimated that because people earning money online were exerting energy, they are working. Everybody alive in Thailand is exerting energy, so either everybody is working, or 'exerting energy' as a definition is a vast oversimplification. In fact the law also says 'or using knowledge, whether for pay or benefits or not' not that this adds any clarity.

Neither is my retort to another poster who claimed "try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant." irrelevant. I have in the past, thousands (at least) are right now, I have never seen a single prosecution for this internationally, and my reply is wholly relevant to the assertion the poster made.

The quote from the Phuket official is interesting- first time I have seen any granular assessment - of course they are not a judge (though they can send you to one), and it's a single province. Will be interesting to see if anyone ends up in court.

Painting a picture is exerting energy.

Painting a fence is exerting energy.

Driving a car is exerting energy.

Driving a taxi is exerting energy.

When taken out of context (that you appear apt to do), all of the above can be construed as work or like breathing and shitting... if we use your rather broad classification.

However, if you are painting a picture because it is your hobby then who cares? What is totally different is painting a fence, either for financial gain or because it is your fence as you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

If you drive your wife to the airport, that's exerting effort but it isn't work at all. Now, if you pick up your mates at the airport and charge them a tenner each, then you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

Still with me? Good.

The fact that European countries don't give a toss that you have patched some code in your hotel room, poolside at your mate's house or waiting in the lounge for your flight out IS irrelevant because.... now don't miss this important bit, IT IS NOT THAILAND.

Thailand is the land that has finessed the 'path of least resistance'. If someone at the Labour Office wanted to get specific with exactly what kinds of work are prohibited, they could have pages and pages of occupations versus the paltry 3 score and 10 or so that have been on the statutes for decades. It's an easy-out and it's their country so why should we get all uppity when they refuse to be drawn into anything that resembles logic, reason and sense?

This IS Thailand at it's very, very best.

i just washed my car, is that considered work because i deprived the local carwash of the job or is it not work because i had no intention of GIVING THEM THE JOB?

[NanLaew]

[... related threads deleted due to being buggered up by following poster...]

It is absolutely on topic and in context. The obvious point is that 'exerting energy' is not necessarily 'work', and that the legal definition is as much use as a chocolate teapot. So why bother even bringing it up? If 'work' means 'exerting energy' It LITERALLY covers breathing, I am not overdramatising.

You brought it up and intimated that because people earning money online were exerting energy, they are working. Everybody alive in Thailand is exerting energy, so either everybody is working, or 'exerting energy' as a definition is a vast oversimplification. In fact the law also says 'or using knowledge, whether for pay or benefits or not' not that this adds any clarity.

Neither is my retort to another poster who claimed "try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant." irrelevant. I have in the past, thousands (at least) are right now, I have never seen a single prosecution for this internationally, and my reply is wholly relevant to the assertion the poster made.

The quote from the Phuket official is interesting- first time I have seen any granular assessment - of course they are not a judge (though they can send you to one), and it's a single province. Will be interesting to see if anyone ends up in court.

Painting a picture is exerting energy.

Painting a fence is exerting energy.

Driving a car is exerting energy.

Driving a taxi is exerting energy.

When taken out of context (that you appear apt to do), all of the above can be construed as work or like breathing and shitting... if we use your rather broad classification.

However, if you are painting a picture because it is your hobby then who cares? What is totally different is painting a fence, either for financial gain or because it is your fence as you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

If you drive your wife to the airport, that's exerting effort but it isn't work at all. Now, if you pick up your mates at the airport and charge them a tenner each, then you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

Still with me? Good.

The fact that European countries don't give a toss that you have patched some code in your hotel room, poolside at your mate's house or waiting in the lounge for your flight out IS irrelevant because.... now don't miss this important bit, IT IS NOT THAILAND.

Thailand is the land that has finessed the 'path of least resistance'. If someone at the Labour Office wanted to get specific with exactly what kinds of work are prohibited, they could have pages and pages of occupations versus the paltry 3 score and 10 or so that have been on the statutes for decades. It's an easy-out and it's their country so why should we get all uppity when they refuse to be drawn into anything that resembles logic, reason and sense?

This IS Thailand at it's very, very best.

i just washed my car, is that considered work because i deprived the local carwash of the job or is it not work because i had no intention of GIVING THEM THE JOB?

In the most stringent application of the law, yes, you have broken the law and deprived someone of a livelihood.

But this is like the old chestnut about the guy cutting his grass or the chap doing DIY renovations in his condo where both had somewhere previously crossed swords with a neighbour and that neighbour (nationality irrelevant here) had dobbed them in to Immigration and/or the Labour people. If they hadn't pissed off anyone before, nobody would have given a toss.

Which nicely brings us back to the perpetual digital pikey question if they are legal or not. To be honest, nobody really gives a toss either way but if you piss off a neighbour, co-worker, associate, the wife or even a casual bed warmer, then someone, somewhere may have a very different opinion and piss on your parade. All it takes is a wad of notes to get the BiB interested.

From various other posts, many of them totally unrelated to this issue, we see that the enforcement of pretty much any Thai law is as arbitrary and inconsistent as any punishments meted out by the courts (if it ever gets that far).

Just keep yourself to yourself and blog, code, debug, buy, sell, trade and type away to your hearts content. Just don't insist on being granted a special dispensation by foreign immigration departments because of the way you chose to make money or relax.