Detached Condos In Thailand?

[fxm88]

I think we could all agree that one of the drawbacks to buying a place in Thailand is that you can never be sure what your neighbors are going to get up to (especially if they are Thai): invite the extended family to move in, open a karaoke bar, "recycling center" (refuse dump), or animal shelter ("Our hillbilly neighbors, the Bumpuses had over 785 smelly hound dogs..."). Maybe paint the house in Purina checkerboard? Who knows! Even in a "high-class" housing estate. And as the years go by their lack of maintenance and care really starts to show. Real neighbors from hel_l, and they might not even know it. It can bring down the whole neighborhood. Of course, living in Thailand you're just supposed to ignore it.

Enter the "detached" condominium (maybe also called a "site" condominium). As in a regular condominium, the land, exterior walls, and common areas jointly owned. An owner controls his interior walls and everything contained within. It has the appearance of a neighborhood of single-family homes, but CC&R's and a HOA govern the whole thing: maintenance, appearance, how many cars you have in your driveway, even whether you can hang clothes out to dry and the height of the grass in the yard.

Does such a device exist in Thailand? Or do condominium laws prohibit such a thing. I remember readings about a restriction on how much land a condominium can be built on. Of course, the whole thing would still be limited to 49% ownership. Thoughts?

[backflip]

There are HOAs but, I'm not sure if they have any real authority about usage and exterior elements. I've seen several examples that a condo was renovated, and the owner (non-Thai) actually broke through the exterior wall to add additional windows. Another (non-Thai) guy built a shed-like room extension onto his balconey. "Ugly" doesn't begin to describe it. I also looked at townhouses, and saw many Thais had modified the home into a business. Next to a rather elegant townhome was one that the owner had removed the large picture window, and has installed a truck loading ramp.

[astral]

I also looked at townhouses, and saw many Thais had modified the home into a business. Next to a rather elegant townhome was one that the owner had removed the large picture window, and has installed a truck loading ramp.

There is little or no Town planning or Zoning control in Thailand.

People just do what they want with no consideration for others.

[Moonfruit]

Guilty.

My townhouse is where we have our office, and about 30% of the rest of our Moo Baan is the same.

I do know of a condo development in Hua Hin like that you mention, but i dont know of anything in Bangkok.

[simon43]

Presumably a 'detached' condimonium - if it were legal in LoS, would allow the farang owner to own the freehold, (if it were no more than 49% of the total conds). So you would physically get a property which has almost all the same advantages of a detached house, whilst still owning the freehold.

Is this correct thinking here? Or did I read somewhere that farangs cannot own the freehold on groundfloor (1st floor in Thai) condos because they 'touch' the sacred Thai soil...

Simon

[taxexile]

what about something like this ?

lease or buy ??

[trajan]

I've never heard of a "detached condo" in Thailand......lots of townhouses in little mini-communities, like that "British Town" townhouse village on Soi Thonglor (but each townhouse comes with the land and the building)...

the only condos I've heard of in Bangkok/Thailand are in multi-storied buildings with strata-title....

would the local authorities even consider registering a "condo juristic person" for detached houses/townhouses??

[astral]

would the local authorities even consider registering a "condo juristic person" for detached houses/townhouses??

For the house only, Yes.

Not for the land it stands on!

[thaigene2]

Presumably a 'detached' condimonium - if it were legal in LoS, would allow the farang owner to own the freehold, (if it were no more than 49% of the total conds). So you would physically get a property which has almost all the same advantages of a detached house, whilst still owning the freehold.

Is this correct thinking here? Or did I read somewhere that farangs cannot own the freehold on groundfloor (1st floor in Thai) condos because they 'touch' the sacred Thai soil...

Simon

Don't think this would work because who would own the land the 'detached' condo sits upon?

If the Thais have such a bee in their bonnet over the land issue, why don't they just revise the leasing laws and allow foreigners to buy a house and land from a seller, then register the property with a 999 year lease at the Land Registry (so the land is listed as actually owned by the Crown/State) but there is an iron-clad gaurantee that the foreigner owns the buildings on the site and has unrestricted rights to its use and improve the property like any other owner could.

No need for Thai GFs or wives to own the things, no need for worrying about short 30 year leases and declining values, etc..You and your kids and their kids and their kids will have full rights to the land and buildings. If they (or you) ever want to sell the remainder of the lease to a foreigner - or if a Thai buyer comes along, the Thai buyer can then reclaim the Freehold from the Land Registry for a 30 Baht stamp duty. If it's a foreign buyer little changes..he just assumes the lease with 912 years or whatever is left.

Simple.

My consultancy fee to the Thai Govt for sorting that little mess out is one 999 year lease in Hua Hin - beach front of course. They can PM me with the details.

[fxm88]

Don't think this would work because who would own the land the 'detached' condo sits upon?

Who would own the land? The same as the land under and around a regular/high-rise condominium: it's owned in common by the owners of the individual units. Presumably use of a yard would be exclusive to its house, similar to a balcony in a high-rise.

Beyond trying to deal with land ownership restrictions, this setup (if implemented properly) could keep up a neighborhood's appearance. For instance, this is currently how a lot of high-end "gated" communities in the U.S. are setup and it's got nothing to do with land ownership restrictions (although sometimes they can get a little totalitarian e.g. here or here or here).

Anyway... I don't know if I have the most up to date info (e.g. here or here) but condominiums may be limited to a maximum 5 rai of land and no fewer than 40 units. By my math that's at most 200 m2 (50 talang wah) of land per house -- and that's not counting common areas such as roads or pools or a park. Not really the kind of neighborhood I had in mind.

[backflip]

"I read somewhere that farangs cannot own the freehold on groundfloor (1st floor in Thai) condos because they 'touch' the sacred Thai soil..."

And the people on the top floor own the sky.

Farangs can own condos on the first floor, and they have no more, or less, claim to the land as unit owners on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th....floors.

[SamSipEt]

CC&R's and a HOA govern the whole thing: maintenance, appearance, how many cars you have in your driveway, even whether you can hang clothes out to dry and the height of the grass in the yard.

Sounds horrible like something of George Orwell. I for one would never consider such a place.

How high the grass in the yard?

If you can or cannot hang out the laundry?

Ridiculous in the extreme.

[trajan]

CC&R's and a HOA govern the whole thing: maintenance, appearance, how many cars you have in your driveway, even whether you can hang clothes out to dry and the height of the grass in the yard.

Sounds horrible like something of George Orwell. I for one would never consider such a place.

How high the grass in the yard?

If you can or cannot hang out the laundry?

Ridiculous in the extreme.

my parents live in a super nice gated community in California...the CC&Rs are very very strict (it even regulates the colors you can paint on your house and the number of hours you can keep your garbage can on the sidewalk, etc.) .....but actually it keeps the neighborhood very prim and magazine-picture proper and re-sale prices VERY high...no houses remain on the market long it after they are put up "for sale".... (strict CC&Rs just add to the value)...

in some very upscale neighorhoods like Beverly Hills etc. there are cases where very rich "hip hop" artists or Middle Eastern big shots come in and purchase a mansion and then proceed to paint it bright lavender and place dozens of "David" statutes on the lawn etc.... the prices of neighboring houses proceed to dive....so there is some logic in CC&Rs...

But dont apply those strict standards to Bangkok...they just wont fly as a rule...(but having said that, my condo building has lots of sensible rules...no visible laundry, no changing of outer door styles.... etc....it keeps things nice

[trajan]

[Anyway... I don't know if I have the most up to date info (e.g. here or here) but condominiums may be limited to a maximum 5 rai of land and no fewer than 40 units. By my math that's at most 200 m2 (50 talang wah) of land per house -- and that's not counting common areas such as roads or pools or a park. Not really the kind of neighborhood I had in mind.

I think you might have answered your own question....detached condos in Thailand might not be practical in view of those legal limitations....townhouse villages (communities) are pretty common though....but in those cases, the land under the structure is sub-divided and individually owned...no common undivided ownership (like in a condo situation)....

[fxm88]

One more reason to consider detached condos: keeping out the creeps.

"Subdivision bylaw aims to prohibit sex offenders"

"Developers plan to keep sex offenders out of subdivision"

"Efforts grow to keep tabs on sex offenders"

[billaaa777]

taxexile, that was really funny in addition to being an intelligent reply!

[bluedragon]

I think we could all agree that one of the drawbacks to buying a place in Thailand is that you can never be sure what your neighbors are going to get up to (especially if they are Thai): invite the extended family to move in, open a karaoke bar, "recycling center" (refuse dump), or animal shelter ("Our hillbilly neighbors, the Bumpuses had over 785 smelly hound dogs..."). Maybe paint the house in Purina checkerboard? Who knows! Even in a "high-class" housing estate. And as the years go by their lack of maintenance and care really starts to show. Real neighbors from hel_l, and they might not even know it. It can bring down the whole neighborhood. Of course, living in Thailand you're just supposed to ignore it.

Enter the "detached" condominium (maybe also called a "site" condominium). As in a regular condominium, the land, exterior walls, and common areas jointly owned. An owner controls his interior walls and everything contained within. It has the appearance of a neighborhood of single-family homes, but CC&R's and a HOA govern the whole thing: maintenance, appearance, how many cars you have in your driveway, even whether you can hang clothes out to dry and the height of the grass in the yard.

Does such a device exist in Thailand? Or do condominium laws prohibit such a thing. I remember readings about a restriction on how much land a condominium can be built on. Of course, the whole thing would still be limited to 49% ownership. Thoughts?

Hi, what's a CCR and an HOA?? Regards, BD

p.s. Detached Condo sounds like a good idea.

[fxm88]

Hi, what's a CCR and an HOA??

CCR's stand for "Covenants, conditions, and restrictions". These are the rules of the condominium.

HOA stands for "Homeowners association". This is the management comittee of the condominium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowners_association

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictive_covenant

[Dragonman]

From Condominium Act- "is a title to a part of a building or buildings with multiple owners"

From legal definition- "the composite individual ownership and exclusive possession of a cube of space in a multi unit building".

[fxm88]

From http://www.phuketland.com/gaz/gaz80.htm (an undated article in the Phuket Gazette(?))

Q: As I understand it, foreigners can have fee simple ownership of certain condominiums in Thailand. My question is: Are all of these condos the high rise type, or are there condos available that are detached structures within a complex"?

A: For a building or multiple buildings to qualify as a condominium. All the buildings must have units such that there are at least one common wall and one common roof/floor. This in theory means that one or more two story house (type structures) with a self contained unit occupying part of the lower floor could be registered as a condominium. In practice however the smallest condominiums that we are seeing in Phuket have three floors and about 12 units per building.

There are probably two reasons that we are not seeing very small units being registered as condominiums. The first relates to the complexity, costs and bureaucracy involved in getting a building certified and then registered as a condominium. The second relates to the qualifications for 100% foreign ownership of a condo. Under the amended condo laws a development on less than 5 rai of land with more than 40 units located in a municipal area can qualify for 100% foreign ownership. If these requirements are not met, foreign ownership is restricted to 49%. It would be difficult to design a low density multiple building condominium within these constraints, and hard to sell the remaining low density units to Thai's (who would not be restricted from buying a house directly). I therefore see it as unlikely that we will see many low density north American style condos in Phuket.