Alone at controls, co-pilot sought to 'destroy' the plane

[F4UCorsair]

Guess you're one of those who believe that mental diseases are not curable.

Clearly not cured in the case of this pilot..........

To operate a high tech aircraft and be responsible for 150 human lives, I would expect the flight deck would comprise four crew, an engineer, a navigator, chief pilot and co pilot but obviously the flying public has been short changed and the aircraft industry has been exposed for what they are, an ever growing rabble of cost savers where money and profits over rule safety and commonsense, Screw you all !

What a load of nonsense, when was the last time you were in the cockpit of an aircraft, 1959?

Oh, so now the pilot is a qualified engineer is he ? Marine law requires a dedicated navigator and engineer onboard what's so different with aircraft ?

Technology reduced cockpit crew many years ago.

Radio operators were dead weight, flight engineers were replaced by computers (flight management systems), as were navugators, loadmasters were dead weight and replaced by ground crew and computerized load systems

If you want all those guys back, air fares will increaae dramatically


In fact there is a move to replace two pilots with one pilot and a dog. The pilot feeds the dog, and the dog bites the pilot if he touches anything.

Seriously, when a jet aircraft can be flown with no pilot, from a computer console, across the Pacific, US to Australia, is there a need for pilots? I think the publuc will always demand there are, but who knows.

[khaosai]

Guess you're one of those who believe that mental diseases are not curable.

Clearly not cured in the case of this pilot..........

To operate a high tech aircraft and be responsible for 150 human lives, I would expect the flight deck would comprise four crew, an engineer, a navigator, chief pilot and co pilot but obviously the flying public has been short changed and the aircraft industry has been exposed for what they are, an ever growing rabble of cost savers where money and profits over rule safety and commonsense, Screw you all !

What a load of nonsense, when was the last time you were in the cockpit of an aircraft, 1959?

Oh, so now the pilot is a qualified engineer is he ? Marine law requires a dedicated navigator and engineer onboard what's so different with aircraft ?

Hi,

Modern aircraft flight decks no longer require a flight engineer. The engineers panel is now pretty much incorporated into the overhead panel above the pilots.

All that's generally needed is to select the required switches to the on position and then leave things alone unless intervention is required during a non normal situation or for instance to switch off a fuel pump due to no more fuel in that particular tank.

Completely legal and completely practical based on today's technology. It was however a sad day when the poor old engineer was made redundant as an extra set of experienced eyes and ears within the flight deck was of huge value.

Edited to add F4U beat me to it with a good explanation. Edited March 28, 2015 by Scott

[beechguy]

@ Crusty. It ain't a boat. Already been explained above. I've been involved in aviation maintenance for 30 years as an FAA certified technician, I do have some clue as to what I'm writing about.

Edited March 28, 2015 by beechguy

[micmichd]

Computers are run by computer programs, and computer programs can only perform reactions to predictable situations.

If you want remote navigation, you need perfect cameras and perfect sensor systems.

A couple of years ago, Airbus autopilos caused problems when it came to aquaplaning. Maybe after a couple of accidents this problem is solved now.

The accuracy of remote navigation can be observed from military. All the countless misses and "collateral damages" might give you an idea about how reliable it is.

I'd rather rely on some "dead freight" as you like to call human personnel.

I personally experienced failures with load management systems at Frankfurt Airport when it came to unexpected situations (check-in luggage). Thai Airways handled the situations by improvisation, Germans waited for commands.

[micmichd]

Maybe the headline is verbally true. Maybe Mr Lubitz wanted to damage the airplane, the human freight inside simply did not come into his mind.

Not so far fetched in an economy where human beings might be regarded as "dead weight"

What was his major offense then?

Mass murder, or damage of Lufthansa's property? Or damage to Lufthansa's shareholders?

Any insurance for that?

Edited March 28, 2015 by micmichd

[neverdie]

Maybe the headline is verbally true. Maybe Mr Lubitz wanted to damage the airplane, the human freight inside simply did not come into his mind.

Not so far fetched in an economy where human beings might be regarded as "dead weight"

What was his major offense then?

Mass murder, or damage of Lufthansa's property? Or damage to Lufthansa's shareholders?

Any insurance for that?

True there's freight and tun there's Self loading freight SLF.

The guy had issues & now he's passed them on.

[kiwikeith]

Obviously, Mr. Lubitz attended his private doctor for treatment, and he relied on privacy. Without privacy laws, he might not even have done this.

And there is no obligation to inform your private doctor what your profession is or who your employer is. You can even lie. In Germany, a professional can go to any doctor anytime, the doctor who wrote the sick notes may not even have known he was a pilot.

He passed his pilot qualification in 2008, yet because of his depression he had to work as a flight attendant for years, it probably felt as a demotion.

Not because of his depression but because flying school churns out far more pilots than there are vacancies available. Many bide their time working at check-in / cabin crew until a vacancy becomes available. This is not at all unusual.

WRONG He had to go through a waiting period for pilots job so he worked as a flight attendant during this time ,also regarded as normal.

However I have read reports that the airline knew of his condition and carried out their own testing and passed him as fit to fly.

He was receiving treatment for depression/ burnout he was having problems coping with a relationship breakup which I thought was on the cards yesterday before reading about it today.

His closest friends knew of this so how he was ever allowed to fly beats me and probably all that read about this.

As for being a fanatic or convert to another radical faith we have yet to hear, however the mass gun murderer's took many out in shooting sprees without being converts and then killed themselves.

I personally think he probably was capable the same as a crazy gunman and not a religious fanatic.

I also think this was premeditated.

The fault lies on the airlines personnel processing , Germany's stupid privacy laws and cheap ass CEO's slashing crew conditions airline conditions and wages = budget airlines understaffed .

I guarantee that the airline will not accept that they are responsible and fob this off onto the madman Lubitz ,hence no insurance payout however I hope that the families involved take them to task for the good of all who fly the world.

[Steely Dan]

German press reports that Lubitz' medical records were beyond the company's doctors reach because of privacy laws.

It gets worse. As with much liberal thought supposedly designed to safeguard people's rights the end result is the opposite.

[kiwikeith]

The last i heard everyone wants air flights as cheap as possible and now with the fuel costs low, that's what we are getting. Good news, eh? Except the pilots are paid poorly so the job only attracts the mid to low range folks.

If we want the very best pilots the price for each seat will rise, significantly. Happy now?

Whats 10 dollars per seat for better pilots-- nothing however the CEO would grab the profit and the pilots would remain the at the same rates.

[krisb]

Quotes from OP:

• "Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz's "intention (was) to destroy this plane,"
• " Lubitz, a 28-year-old German, manually set the plane on the descent that drove it into the mountain."
• "... co-pilot said nothing from the moment the commanding pilot left."
• "... the override code known to the crew does not go into effect — and indeed goes into a lockdown — if the person inside the cockpit specifically denies entry..."
• "The circumstances of the crash are likely to raise questions anew about the possibility of suicidal pilots."
• "In the 1999 crash of an EgyptAir jet off Nantucket that killed all 217 people on board, U.S. investigators found the co-pilot intentionally caused the plane to go down despite the pilot's efforts to regain control."
• "CEO Spohr said: "We choose our cockpit staff very, very carefully."
• " Lubitz had never been flagged as a terrorist and would not give details on his religion or ethnic background."

Call me heartless for not joining the RIP brigade - costs little and is worth even less.

Call me paranoid if you are more confident in your own mental condition.

But the circumstances, facts and opinions quoted above do not seem to me supporting "psychotic" version.

Also they do not seamlessly stitch together IMHO. I'm afraid I smell a rat here.

European Laws forbid disclosure of details related to ethnicity, religion etc. of this Andreas Lubitz.

He was (?) permitted not to give details of his ethnic and religious background when trained and employed (?).

Bingo! I do not like this! Whether it is true or false...

Well, his name looks classically German, so ethnicity is likely not an 'issue'. But what are you saying? That airlines should discriminate against people of certain ethnicities or faiths in their hiring??

Do you think employers don't descriminate when they hire?

Wrong.

[MikeOboe57]

When the police searched his appartment they found a medical note from a flight surgeon declaring him unfit to fly. Instead of informing his employer he had torn it up and gone to work. When the captain went through the landing briefing for Duesseldorf the FO probably realized that his flying career would be over after this transgression and he became very "curt" as the CVR replay showed. Instead of going through the shame of being fired he decided to take this way out. I doubt he thought about the SLF (self loading freight) behind the cockpit door who would have to die with him.

[Docno]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

Certain professions should be exempt from patient doctor confidentiality. The doctor in this case should have been able to contact the airline, and say this person is not fit to pilot an aircraft.

Not a simple issue. The problem is that people may avoid going to the doctor if they think a certain diagnosis will imperil their employment. That may create more problems than it solves. This is why many countries moved to anonymous HIV testing ... they understood that people will avoid being tested if their diagnosis is not confidential. Then the problem will become larger. ... The law of unintended consequences.

[micmichd]

Anonymous HIV testing is a good example.

Why not anonymous testing on mental issues?

[micmichd]

Just read on T-Online Germany that

- Lufthansa/Germanwings will pay immediately up to 50,000 EUR for every victim

- Andreas Lubitz was *not* treated for depression, the SCI note was about something else.

Edited March 28, 2015 by micmichd

[slightlychilled]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

Certain professions should be exempt from patient doctor confidentiality. The doctor in this case should have been able to contact the airline, and say this person is not fit to pilot an aircraft.

Not a simple issue. The problem is that people may avoid going to the doctor if they think a certain diagnosis will imperil their employment. That may create more problems than it solves. This is why many countries moved to anonymous HIV testing ... they understood that people will avoid being tested if their diagnosis is not confidential. Then the problem will become larger. ... The law of unintended consequences.

We don't actually know what he went to the doctor for do we ? to what sort of ailment did the sick note relate to ? it's perfectly possible it had nothing to do with depression. German doctors hand out sick notes left, right and centre. I've often torn up a sick note with the diagnosis of my problem and medication sufficing without needing to take time off work. Speculation, speculation, speculation...............

[manarak]

Maybe the headline is verbally true. Maybe Mr Lubitz wanted to damage the airplane, the human freight inside simply did not come into his mind.

Not so far fetched in an economy where human beings might be regarded as "dead weight"

What was his major offense then?

Mass murder, or damage of Lufthansa's property? Or damage to Lufthansa's shareholders?

Any insurance for that?

Mass murder of course.

But the insurance question is an interesting one - I guess German personal civil responsibility insurances are capped (Private Haftpflicht)?

And will his insurance even pay the capped amount?

Then I guess the plane was insured - but can the insurance be claimed if an employee crashed it?

And of course the guy did massive damage to Lufthansa and Germanwings - no insurances cover business risks.

Edited March 28, 2015 by manarak

[Lissos]

British tabloids (yes, I know) are apparently saying that the former girlfriend has mentioned that he said to her at one point (when, I don't know) that essentially - one day was going to carry out such a heinous act, his name would be remembered forever. In some ways that sounds too 'fitting' to be true and sounds a bit like tabloid embellishment to me, but quite possibly could be accurate. We shall see what unfolds. In the samer articles they are saying she left him because of how bizzare he was becoming. If it proves to be true, he was another Anders Breivik character on a mass scale. Everyone is talking about him alright, but as with Breivik, not in any glory sense whatsoever if that is what he sought.

[novo58]

All we have ( as usual) is speculation.

All we have ( as usual) is TVF members solving the case in seconds .

Same same .................some things never change .

[micmichd]

Maybe the headline is verbally true. Maybe Mr Lubitz wanted to damage the airplane, the human freight inside simply did not come into his mind.
Not so far fetched in an economy where human beings might be regarded as "dead weight"

What was his major offense then?
Mass murder, or damage of Lufthansa's property? Or damage to Lufthansa's shareholders?
Any insurance for that?

Mass murder of course.

But the insurance question is an interesting one - I guess German personal civil responsibility insurances are capped (Private Haftpflicht)?
And will his insurance even pay the capped amount?

Then I guess the plane was insured - but can the insurance be claimed if an employee crashed it?

And of course the guy did massive damage to Lufthansa and Germanwings - no insurances cover business risks.[/quote

Yes, the company can be made liable for damages done by their employees.
Yes, there's an insurance for this. In German it's called "Betriebshaftplicht"

[Lissos]

All we have ( as usual) is speculation.

All we have ( as usual) is TVF members solving the case in seconds .

Same same .................some things never change .

It's called 'discussion', and it harms nobody.

[Chicog]

All we have ( as usual) is speculation.

All we have ( as usual) is TVF members solving the case in seconds .

Same same .................some things never change .

You can't fault CSI:TV

Always get the job done.

[Chicog]

British tabloids (yes, I know) are apparently saying that the former girlfriend has mentioned that he said to her at one point (when, I don't know) that essentially - one day was going to carry out such a heinous act, his name would be remembered forever. In some ways that sounds too 'fitting' to be true and sounds a bit like tabloid embellishment to me, but quite possibly could be accurate. We shall see what unfolds. In the samer articles they are saying she left him because of how bizzare he was becoming. If it proves to be true, he was another Anders Breivik character on a mass scale. Everyone is talking about him alright, but as with Breivik, not in any glory sense whatsoever if that is what he sought.

The British tabloids got it off an ever worse German tabloid.

[Mosha]

Just read on T-Online Germany that

- Lufthansa/Germanwings will pay immediately up to 50,000 EUR for every victim

- Andreas Lubitz was *not* treated for depression, the SCI note was about something else.

Unfortunately the payouts depend on numerous factors, including nationality. The Germans for example will get more compensation than the Spaniards. Thay's all down to the countries in question compensation laws/rules. So up to is a bit vague.

[Credo]

So, apparently some Europeans are worth more than others?

[kjhbigv]

Like that amazing QANTAS Captain who at one stage lost all 4 engines but still got them safely down.

You mean that Amazing British Airways captain that lost 4 engines!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18ugux_mayday-s04e02-falling-from-the-sky-all-engines-failed_shortfilms

[micmichd]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11501075/Andreas-Lubitz-planned-spectacular-gesture-that-would-go-down-in-history-claims-ex-girlfriend.html

Here's the truth,

as provided by the German central organ of investigative journalism and enlightenment, Bild-Zeitung.

Breathtaking!

He had a girlfriend, bought her flowers, and they talked about their jobs.

He promised her a car, but couldn't keep his promise. He never had enough money!

They argued sometimes, he once even locked her up in a bathroom. What a creep, he locked her up!

But now he's dead, and now she's free to talk

[micmichd]

So, apparently some Europeans are worth more than others?

Of course, Germans are the most valuable Europeans - when they're dead (hard to find them really alive) Edited March 28, 2015 by micmichd

[canuckamuck]

All we have ( as usual) is speculation.

All we have ( as usual) is TVF members solving the case in seconds .

Same same .................some things never change .

How would you prefer the discussion went.

"Plane crashed eh?"

"That's a shame, do you know why?"

"Nope!"

"Oh"

"Biscuits?"

[MJP]

So, apparently some Europeans are worth more than others?

I just hate it when the media divvie up the number of people who died from different "countries". Like it makes a difference. They're people regardless.

[beechguy]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

Certain professions should be exempt from patient doctor confidentiality. The doctor in this case should have been able to contact the airline, and say this person is not fit to pilot an aircraft.

Not a simple issue. The problem is that people may avoid going to the doctor if they think a certain diagnosis will imperil their employment. That may create more problems than it solves. This is why many countries moved to anonymous HIV testing ... they understood that people will avoid being tested if their diagnosis is not confidential. Then the problem will become larger. ... The law of unintended consequences.

It is a simple issue in aviation. If you want to fly, or perform some maintenance functions, flight physicals are a requirement. How often depends on the regulatory agency and your position, could be as little as every 6 months, 1 year, or 3 years. Not to mention, under the FAA, random drug screenings are conducted.