Japan is likely to undertake Kanchanaburi route railway project

[wirat69]

This is totally wrong on many levels. Seems that Thailand doesn't care much for history.

Isn't integrity and honour a big thing in Japan? Surely they have the education to remember what happened.

Not really a surprise with the distorted history lessons they get.

Ask a Thai what the Victory Monument commemorates and very few will know. Why it is still there after the land was given back is a mystery.

The Japanese students do not know either.... a group of Japanese students were taken to visit Jeath Museum. When they returned home, they asked their elders "Why?"

The elders response was to ask the Thais not to take further groups to that Museum.....

[cookee68]

Who are they going to use for the dirty work?

Thailand like they did in the war days

[Kondiao]

It kind of surprises me that so many farangs are upset at the prospect of the Japanese again talking about building a railroad at this site of one of the greatest atrocities that humans have perpetrated another humans - while the Asians of all varieties are willing to ignore things like this - because it is history now and who cares and they have to get on with life here, now; because common people don't actually believe the horrors of the past that we read about in our history books and watch at the movies and hear from our old fathers and grand-fathers, in stunned silence, humbled at the thought of what these these ordinary, bear-drinking, cranky, impatient old men went through - to save our world from going down to the facists and Asian people don't get this; and one more thing that farangs never seem to get: they don't want anyone to LOSE FACE!!. If the Japanese were to lose face in an exchange of negotiations then the Thais would lose face because of it. And then there would be no railroad constructed.

But, we farangs remember the Alamo and the Battle of the Bulge - hell we remember the Battle of Boyne and the battle at PEtersburg in the Civil War,. And I remember the firefights in the graveyards in Vietnam, though no one wants to hear about them. Thai people don't want to be concerned that in the 1940's Japaense accupying forces routinely raped every woman they wanted to in Thailand, just as they did all across East Asia, in total disregard that Thailand was nominally their ally, not a conquered nation. And back in California, old WWII veterans still look on innocent little Chinese children and with hatred because of Pearl Harbor. There is no sense in trying to reason with such old people using logic - it is not a matter of logic. And there is no use in trying to reason with Thai people about not trusting the Japanese. - it is a matter of GREED. The people in power are standing in line to accept the bribes they stand to get - to over-look the potential impacts that any construction project has on the environment.

I ranted against the proposed project by the Chinese to build the long railway line to the coast of Thailand. A joint venture that would be of benefit to both countries, allowing more Chinese garbage to be exported to the consummers of the world and rich Chinese to import more expensive shit. I am not concerned with economic principles. I am upset that Thai rulers would allow these people - who have zero regard for any people other than Chinese - to invade their country unopposed and take over. They will rape Thailand.

Some people could say that we farangs are obssessed with the past too much. And some of us feel that Orientals are too forgetful of history. But if you don't learn from the past - in order to prevent the same old disasters from happening again - then you are opening yourelves, your children, to the same shit in a new day. I say tell the Japanese to go somewhere else to build their railroads.

[malt25]

Well ... Thailand and Japan were both Axis powers during wwii so I'm guessing they see nothing wrong with this.

Thailand an Axis power.... don't think so. Maybe an Axis member but don't think ever a POWER.

Just saying.

[hawker9000]

This is totally wrong on many levels. Seems that Thailand doesn't care much for history.

Isn't integrity and honour a big thing in Japan? Surely they have the education to remember what happened.

Not really a surprise with the distorted history lessons they get.

Ask a Thai what the Victory Monument commemorates and very few will know. Why it is still there after the land was given back is a mystery.

For the most part the Japanese don't know the truth about WWII, they aren't taught it in school and for obvious reasons it is quite a taboo subject.

As an example, I have a very good Japanese friend who lives in Thailand (mid forties), I took him to Kanchanaburi for the ANZAC Day 2010 dawn service and he couldn't believe what he was seeing; he couldn't believe the Japanese had done this.

He'd commented that the war never made it to Australia, again, when I mentioned the bombing of Darwin, midget subs in Sydney Harbour he was dumbfounded.

Unfortunately, the people who know the truth in Japan have sadly passed on without passing on the history.

Japan has quite sadly taken an entirely different approach to the national responsibility and remorse Germany has shown when it comes to WWII. I can guarantee that the matter of the Death Railway doesn't even enter into any Japanese thinking when it comes to this project. Pay a visit to Hellfire Pass sometime and get a load of the Japanese tourists there if any.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/25/world/asia/japan-pm-war-shrine/

(Can you just imagine some German chancellor paying an homage visit to some Nazi war shrine??)

And there are some right here on TV that will actually defend Japan's WWII actions as a "response to western colonialism/imperialism". Indescribably vile. Japan's atrocities in Asia were if anything even more widespread & brutal than Germany's in Europe.

[NongKhaiKid]

This may be a bit off topic, but it has the same meaning. When I was in primary school, we had history lessons every week, there was nothing

taught about the British Empire, and how they ruled two thirds of the world only 100 years ago.

Of course the Japanese didn't teach certain history in their school. As far as I could see when I was a school teacher here in Thailand, the Thai kids

were not taught history at all, although they were taught geography.

I bet the German kids are not taught about Hitlers atrocities during World War 11.

You are utterly and totally wrong about the Germans. They teach their kids everything - EVERYTHING! - about what the Nazis did, so that it's as unlikely as possible that anything like it will ever happen again in Germany. This is the huge difference with the Japanese: they cover up as much as possible about the Japanese crimes of the Pacific War and so the Japanese have very little knowledge of it, and get very surprised at the criticisms of the Chinese in particular, who suffered the most at their hands. Read Ian Buruma's excellent book on it called The Wages of Guilt, where he specifically compares the present-day German and Japanese attitudes to World War II.

As to the British Empire (and Dominions), it comprised a quarter of the world at the most up until 1948, never two-thirds. What British kids are told about it seems to vary from how good it was when I was in school in the 50s and 60s, and how bad it was in schools today.

When I first went to Hong Kong in the late '70s one of the annual protest days was just prior to the start of Japan's academic year and was about the fact that text books stopped ' history ' in 1936 and started again in 1946.

Imagine 10 years of a country's history just doesn't exist and no explanation to students why.

Incidentally, last year a friend and his Thai wife spent a few days in Kanchanaburi and when thye visited the war cemetery she asked why so many farang soldiers were buried there. She knew absolutely nothing about WWII, had no idea that the Thais had collaborated with the Japanese who had occupied the country as, like so much more of history, she had never been taught anything about it.

[tigermonkey]

There is just something wrong with that project. It doesn't sit well with me at all and shouldn't happen. Having been born in the last days of WWII, that history is burned into my mind. I read more of the Japan War than the German, I guess a natural instinct for the East. It sounds rather strange that today the US Marine Corps is teaching the Japanese how to invade and conquer islands. Times have changed. Rather than letting China get an even bigger slice of Thailand it should be the Japanese building the route to Nong Khai. Japan can build a railroad, Germany can build a railroad, anything China does is suspect to the core, both product and motive. The number of Southeast Asian workers recruited or impressed to work on the Burma railway has been estimated to have been upwards of 180,000 of whom as many as one-half may have died. In the initial stages of the construction of the railway, Burmese and Thai were employed in their respective countries, but Thai workers, in particular, were likely to abscond from the project and the number of Burmese workers recruited was insufficient. The Burmese had welcomed the invasion by Japan to end British rule and cooperated with Japan in recruiting workers.[10] In early 1943, the Japanese advertised for workers in Malaya, Singapore, and the Dutch East Indies, promising good wages, short contracts, and housing for families. When that failed to attract sufficient workers, they resorted to more coercive methods, rounding up workers and impressing them, especially in Malaya. Most of the romusha working on the railway were probably coerced, rather than being volunteers. Approximately 90,000 Burmese and 75,000 Malayans worked on the railroad. Other nationalities and ethnic groups working on the railway were Tamil, Chinese, Karen, Javanese, and Singaporean Chinese.[11] Working conditions for the romusha were deadly. A British doctor said: "The conditions in the coolie [romusha] camps down river are terrible...They are kept isolated from Japanese and British camps. They have no latrines. Special British prisoner parties...bury about 20 coolies a day. These coolies have been brought from Malaya under false pretences ' easy work, good pay, good houses!' Some have even brought wives and children. Now they find themselves dumped in these charnel houses, driven and brutally knocked about by the Jap and Korean guards, unable to buy extra food, bewildered, sick, frightened. Yet many of them have shown extraordinary kindness to sick British prisoners passing down the river, giving them sugar and helping them into the railway trucks>"[12] I have read an estimated 10,000 Thais died on the project. There are no exact figures on how many SE Asians died.

Extensive quoting of Wikipedia should be given credit. Mods can decide how this fits with 'fair use' policy.

[wabothai]

Go ahead general, have the Japanese build the railway.

Massive international outcry and protests will bite you in the behind.

Good for international relations.

[EyesWideOpen]

Perhaps the Japanese will round up all the British and Australian expats in Thailand to work on the railway.

There was about 900 Americans that were prisoners and worked on the death railroad.

While their total numbers were smaller than the other countries, they suffered the highest

percent death rate. So if the Japanese start rounding up expats, they will have to

add in a few Americans to make it like the old days..... And of course have to bring over

a few Koreans to do the beatings to really bring back the old days.

The deaths of allied soldiers on the death railway are well documented. There where 686 American POW's of which 133 died a mortality rate of 19%. There where 30,131 British POW's, 6,904 a death rate of 23%. In my view one death was to many!

This story has resonance for personal reasons. My grandfather served the whole of WW2 in SE Asia. He was in Burma and fell back to India along with the rest of the forces from Rangoon.

In August 1945 he was amongst the first British soldiers to reach Changi Prison. What he saw stayed with him for the rest of his life. He could never forgive the Japanese for what they did. He came back to the UK in late 1945 a very different man to the one that left in 1939. He died in 2005 aged 99. He still suffered with bouts of malaria all those years later. And according to my grandmother he would still wake up in a cold sweat. re-living the terrible memories of the things he saw and endured.

We have to put this into context and remember that this was 70 years ago. though we should never forget what happened the world moves on. There are not many left alive who remember what happened from first had experience. Do we continue to blame the grandchildren of those who carried out these atrocities?

For the Fallen

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,

We will remember them.

Laurence Binyon 1914

I have stood at Hellfire pass several times, and you can almost feel this eerie sense of pain....

The American POWS had a death rate of nearly 50 %, highest by far. I suspect the Japanese

had a special hatred for them. And for those who do not know, a lot of the beatings and

punishments were handed out by the Koreans. Japan did not want to spare front line

soldiers to guard POWS, so Koreans were used....

My uncle served in the Pacific theatre in WW2. His hatred of the Japanese knew no bounds

as he saw first hand what they were capable of . So in the present day, it is not so much

a matter of blaming the children and grandchildren of the Japanese that inflicted so much

pain upon so many people, but rather for a moment in time the Japanese showed what

they are really like, the most brutal people on planet earth, and THAT should never be

forgotten......To understand Japan, do your own research on the rape of Nanking.

They would have contests about who could behead the most Chinese in one day.....

http://www.scottmurray.com/bridge.htm

Workers on the Death Railway Total Deaths

Deaths

Asian Laborers 200,000 +/- 80,000

British POW's 30,000 6,540

Dutch POW's 18,000 2,830

Australian POW's 13,000 2,710

American POW's 700 +/- 356

Korean & Japanese soldiers 15,000 1,000

Edited March 28, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[Clear Sky]

My grand father has been capture to be build railtrack and never return home again, each time the track remember someone that you love lost in history.

Sorry for your loss; so many people died building that railway.

One thing that continues to make this situation worse is that the Japanese fail to admit the extent of their atrocious behaviour during World War II.

[Cats4ever]

That's all ancient history and they were only farangs anyway.

The Japanese were/are not farang - they are yipon.

[halloween]

My grandfather was a serviceman in WWII, and for the rest of his life refused to buy a Japanese product. For his grandchildren to take the same attitude to the perpetrators grandchildren and great-grandchildren seems more than a little puerile.

Should we boycott German products too? Should Americans be ashamed for hiring a Mexican gardener after what they did at the Alamo?

[Commerce]

Perhaps the Japanese will round up all the British and Australian expats in Thailand to work on the railway.

There was about 900 Americans that were prisoners and worked on the death railroad.

While their total numbers were smaller than the other countries, they suffered the highest

percent death rate. So if the Japanese start rounding up expats, they will have to

add in a few Americans to make it like the old days..... And of course have to bring over

a few Koreans to do the beatings to really bring back the old days.

The deaths of allied soldiers on the death railway are well documented. There where 686 American POW's of which 133 died a mortality rate of 19%. There where 30,131 British POW's, 6,904 a death rate of 23%. In my view one death was to many!

This story has resonance for personal reasons. My grandfather served the whole of WW2 in SE Asia. He was in Burma and fell back to India along with the rest of the forces from Rangoon.

In August 1945 he was amongst the first British soldiers to reach Changi Prison. What he saw stayed with him for the rest of his life. He could never forgive the Japanese for what they did. He came back to the UK in late 1945 a very different man to the one that left in 1939. He died in 2005 aged 99. He still suffered with bouts of malaria all those years later. And according to my grandmother he would still wake up in a cold sweat. re-living the terrible memories of the things he saw and endured.

We have to put this into context and remember that this was 70 years ago. though we should never forget what happened the world moves on. There are not many left alive who remember what happened from first had experience. Do we continue to blame the grandchildren of those who carried out these atrocities?

For the Fallen

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,

We will remember them.

Laurence Binyon 1914

I have stood at Hellfire pass several times, and you can almost feel this eerie sense of pain....

The American POWS had a death rate of nearly 50 %, highest by far. I suspect the Japanese

had a special hatred for them. And for those who do not know, a lot of the beatings and

punishments were handed out by the Koreans. Japan did not want to spare front line

soldiers to guard POWS, so Koreans were used....

My uncle served in the Pacific theatre in WW2. His hatred of the Japanese knew no bounds

as he saw first hand what they were capable of . So in the present day, it is not so much

a matter of blaming the children and grandchildren of the Japanese that inflicted so much

pain upon so many people, but rather for a moment in time the Japanese showed what

they are really like, the most brutal people on planet earth, and THAT should never be

forgotten......To understand Japan, do your own research on the rape of Nanking.

They would have contests about who could behead the most Chinese in one day.....

http://www.scottmurray.com/bridge.htm

Workers on the Death Railway Total Deaths

Deaths

Asian Laborers 200,000 +/- 80,000

British POW's 30,000 6,540

Dutch POW's 18,000 2,830

Australian POW's 13,000 2,710

American POW's 700 +/- 356

Korean & Japanese soldiers 15,000 1,000

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/camplists/death_rr/movements_1.html

Americans were not the highest percentage; it was Brits followed by Australians to be precise (23% and 22%, respectively, with US at 19%).

So why try to suggest 50%, when it's not accurate, and more - what do percentages matter in all reality?

One death was more than enough as POWs, and you rightly point out the macabre cultural instinct of a certain race.

If you saw post #31 you would have watched about Nanjing (Née Nanking), and indeed the correct observation of competitions to behead as many as possible.

I absolutely agree that we shouldn't hold against today's youth, but the culture song remains the same because the Japanese have NEVER taken or admitted any responsibility or even admitted their atrocities. Until denial is overcome, problem admitted and history discussed yielding to change wanted, then the alcoholic or drug taker or whoever continues on the same path (metaphorically). Let's leave the figures out, shall we?

I also would like to add that I think it disgusting that the Japanese would even encounter such a venture, all things considered, and furthermore that this clearly displays the naivety of Thailand and its complete disrespect for anything foreign. That is why Thailand does not develop at the rate of others, because it displays complete disregard for history and learning from past mistakes.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Commerce

[EyesWideOpen]

That's all ancient history and they were only farangs anyway.

The Japanese were/are not farang - they are yipon.

Nice one Codswallop !!!! So I guess the 200,000 Asians that died don't

matter either ? That is sort of a sad troll, try to pick another subject....

Edited March 28, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[EyesWideOpen]

If Thailand has a short memory(70 years)then Europe,UK,USA,AUST and NZ must have altziemers.

Nope. I still have not forgiven the Brits for burning down the White House in 1812... :-)

[Oziex1]

"That is why Thailand does not develop at the rate of others, because it displays complete disregard for history and learning from past mistakes"

No not Thailand, Mankind in general does not learn from history it is one of our biggest follies and has a major negative effect on our advancement.

[Commerce]

"That is why Thailand does not develop at the rate of others, because it displays complete disregard for history and learning from past mistakes"

No not Thailand, Mankind in general does not learn from history it is one of our biggest follies and has a major negative effect on our advancement.

What on earth inspires you to make the latter observation?

One of our greatest strengths is indeed to record history and learn from it. Where do you think laws come from; laws that have bettered and bettered societies to the point we are at today?

When parts of histories are erased in certain places for certain years there are reasons for such. I wonder if the paradox of 'saving face' has anything to do with this on Japan's part?

Edit: Your's Sincerely,

Hara Kiri.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Commerce

[Oziex1]

"That is why Thailand does not develop at the rate of others, because it displays complete disregard for history and learning from past mistakes"

No not Thailand, Mankind in general does not learn from history it is one of our biggest follies and has a major negative effect on our advancement.

What on earth inspires you to make the latter observation?

One of our greatest strengths is indeed to record history and learn from it. Where do you think laws come from; laws that have bettered and bettered societies to the point we are at today?

When parts of histories are erased in certain places for certain years there are reasons for such. I wonder if the paradox of 'saving face' has anything to do with this on Japan's part?

I stand by my comment, we still have wars. financial collapses and incredibly poor government. If we do learn from history we are a little slow in my opinion.

[Neeranam]

This may be a bit off topic, but it has the same meaning. When I was in primary school, we had history lessons every week, there was nothing

taught about the British Empire, and how they ruled two thirds of the world only 100 years ago.

Of course the Japanese didn't teach certain history in their school. As far as I could see when I was a school teacher here in Thailand, the Thai kids

were not taught history at all, although they were taught geography.

I bet the German kids are not taught about Hitlers atrocities during World War 11.

History is taught in Thai schools. The problem is that some things are omitted.

I think I read recently that in current history books Thaksin can't be mentioned.

[Expat1]

Comment not necessary, you gentlemen beat me to the obvious retort. However, this time no British and Indian assistance no doubt.

[Stokakrishna]

This is totally wrong on many levels. Seems that Thailand doesn't care much for history.

Isn't integrity and honour a big thing in Japan? Surely they have the education to remember what happened.

Not really a surprise with the distorted history lessons they get.

Ask a Thai what the Victory Monument commemorates and very few will know. Why it is still there after the land was given back is a mystery.

why is it wrong?

Thais do not learn history in shools, not international history, not even their own. so what do you expect??

as for Victory monument in bangkok, its a total joke.

firstly Thas do nto knwo what is it for. secondly the "real' reason for building it was another joke

[LuckyLew]

I wonder is Japan banning charter flights will affect the Japanese working on the rail way?

I can see Thailand saying "let our planes land in Japan and we give you more contracts"

[BSJ]

If the Japanese pursue the matter it is in rather poor taste. If the Thai's persist in encouraging the Japanese it's very insensitive to the families of all those that died there.

[manarak]

This is totally wrong on many levels. Seems that Thailand doesn't care much for history.

Isn't integrity and honour a big thing in Japan? Surely they have the education to remember what happened.

Not really a surprise with the distorted history lessons they get.

Ask a Thai what the Victory Monument commemorates and very few will know. Why it is still there after the land was given back is a mystery.

History should be remembered, but it should not become an obstacle to development.

[evadgib]

This must be an early wind up for April fool!

Edited March 29, 2015 by evadgib

[Traveller45]

Well I suppose thats a logical choice, given that the Japanese have previous experience on that route!

If you haven't noticed, the world is evolving, people tend to forgive and forget.

Not entirely good in my opinion because we should always remember and try to avoid mistakes of the past.

But it's money and interests that talks nowadays to the dismay of old farts, like me.

Sorry Costas but you of all people missed the boat on this one.

"the world is evolving, people tend to forgive and forget."

So what is it Greece is asking Germany for again?

FORK. It's just about BUILDING A (deleted) RAILWAY, not about redressing all the wrongs of history! It just so happens that both Germany and Japan have good engineers and lots of experience with railways. The project in the Arabian peninsula will be done under German consortium as well, the Arabs will know why!