Thai generals push for 'golden era' when elite held sway

[NeverSure]

What rights did they get from Taksin that are going to be taken away by the junta and royalists?

The right to make mistakes when voting.

Awesome answer.

If Thais (and other countries) aren't allowed to nearly drown in their bad voting mistakes until they wake up, they won't learn. We learn the hardest lessons in life by suffering the consequences of our own bad decisions.

Having a corrupt military pretend to save us from our mistakes regularly while it actually only promotes itself and the elite back into power doesn't ever give democracy a chance to get settled in.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” - Winston Churchill

[gk10002000]

I can believe that. It is easy when you have the full support and backing of your "bosses" and the money flows freely and you don't have to worry about what the masses want or their every day problems.

[tbthailand]

People often seem top forget that Thaksin and company are an elite as well. Yes the Shinwatras are an elite, period.

So which brand of menthol do you smoke Amnat or Shin? Seem many would rather fight than switch, but at the end of the day what is the blinkin difference?

in one sense, you are absolutely correct. A fight between Thaksin and his opponents is a fight between elites.

but on the other hand, the struggle is between people who want self-rule and those who just want to rule.

So many here focus on the first point and do not even see the second point.

[fred Kubasa]

What gets me most about Thailand's 1,600, not a typo, 1,600 " Generals ",all bearing uniform chests holding 6 pounds of medals and campaign ribbons when

not one has ever been, excepting Bangkok, in any sort of battle, excepting at home ! Maybe they get battle ribbons for hemorrhoids ?

[RigPig]

I read somewhere there are 2000 yes 2000 schools in Thailand without electricity, rectifying that would be a step in the right direction for any government. But it seems REAL education (which would eventually fix all of Thailand´s problems) never comes into the equation, as it suits both sides for opposite reasons.

At the moment beach chairs and LM are more important.....

[kingalfred]

Democracy in Thailand? Never had it, never will!

[AYJAYDEE]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

Bet you loved these darlings too! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Greek_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

[kennw]

Mr. Tokay if you dont know what PTP policies were threatening way of life here, you are hardly capable of making sensible comments to this forum. And oh ! examples, start with some proposed by Mr. Chalerm.

[BSJ]

Folks you have to let it go. I am taking about the anti junta fervour that some of you cling to. We need the junta....that's right we need them. Without the junta the country would have been plunged into a civil war last year. Now we have stability.....and I do know it's not democracy. OK, it's transition period if it's anything but it's not all bad. The people can go about their business as usual, have fun as usual and travel around the country from province to province.

I don't see a comparison to the likes of Castro, Mugabe or Pinochet. The junta may take a few troublemakers makers off the street for attitude adjustment, who are not your average mum and dad Thai's BTW, and aren't they usually the type of people who would be in need of attitude adjustment anyway? They sure seem to be the types that would be up to devious deeds!

So as foreigner's we need not be concerned....unless the junta decides to expell us....then we worry!

For me expulsion see's me living in Laos because the wife has family there.....and holly cr@p, Los is a communist country! I wonder if that will be better or worse???

[jerojero]

Repeating the obvious, but only education and resulting educated population can bring Thailand into the international modern era of democracy. Military does no know how to progess a country forward or its population. Good luck to Thailand this round, because it seems Military influence is here to stay this time, one way or another.

Edited March 28, 2015 by jerojero

[brucec64]

Folks you have to let it go. I am taking about the anti junta fervour that some of you cling to. We need the junta....that's right we need them. Without the junta the country would have been plunged into a civil war last year. Now we have stability.....and I do know it's not democracy. OK, it's transition period if it's anything but it's not all bad. The people can go about their business as usual, have fun as usual and travel around the country from province to province.

I don't see a comparison to the likes of Castro, Mugabe or Pinochet. The junta may take a few troublemakers makers off the street for attitude adjustment, who are not your average mum and dad Thai's BTW, and aren't they usually the type of people who would be in need of attitude adjustment anyway? They sure seem to be the types that would be up to devious deeds!

So as foreigner's we need not be concerned....unless the junta decides to expell us....then we worry!

For me expulsion see's me living in Laos because the wife has family there.....and holly cr@p, Los is a communist country! I wonder if that will be better or worse???

The civil war argument. Probably the worst of all the arguments. If you would only look beyond what was fed to you by the nation at the time, and spent a little time doing some analysis and comparison with previous coups, you would see that the "crisis" was a series of manufactured events. Create fear and then take that fear away, and it is amazing how people will throw away their rights for that perceived security.

[soalbundy]

This is just another constitution that is destined for the waste paper basket, it will be rewritten again and again, just not by this government. There will be more dissatisfied Thais than the army has soldiers, i prophesy blood on the streets,not stability, if anything this government will swell the ranks of PTP not minimize their power. As we have seen many times before,regardless of the constitution, democracy takes place on the streets here with the mob in power, not in parliament. Paper is patient.

[BestBitterPhuket]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

They are probably married into the Bangkok elite, and would love to welcome a new "golden" era...

[BSJ]

Folks you have to let it go. I am taking about the anti junta fervour that some of you cling to. We need the junta....that's right we need them. Without the junta the country would have been plunged into a civil war last year. Now we have stability.....and I do know it's not democracy. OK, it's transition period if it's anything but it's not all bad. The people can go about their business as usual, have fun as usual and travel around the country from province to province.

I don't see a comparison to the likes of Castro, Mugabe or Pinochet. The junta may take a few troublemakers makers off the street for attitude adjustment, who are not your average mum and dad Thai's BTW, and aren't they usually the type of people who would be in need of attitude adjustment anyway? They sure seem to be the types that would be up to devious deeds!

So as foreigner's we need not be concerned....unless the junta decides to expell us....then we worry!

For me expulsion see's me living in Laos because the wife has family there.....and holly cr@p, Los is a communist country! I wonder if that will be better or worse???

The civil war argument. Probably the worst of all the arguments. If you would only look beyond what was fed to you by the nation at the time, and spent a little time doing some analysis and comparison with previous coups, you would see that the "crisis" was a series of manufactured events. Create fear and then take that fear away, and it is amazing how people will throw away their rights for that perceived security.

RIGHTS! What rights. I am a farang and the only right I have is the right to go to the airport and leave.

Every crisis is a manufactured event. While we have powerful people who's sole aim is to enrich themselves at the expense of others there is always a chance their plotting and scheming will lead to no good.

[dbrenn]

A golden era for the few means a poverty stricken era for the many.

[spectrumisgreen]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

How'd you work that one out? That a military rule instigating more military and elitist rule is an effort 'being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force'??? ...

[baboon]

Im not elite or rich just a normal person whose built a good life with my thai wife and 2 kids over 30 years but what Taksin and his thugs were trying in last 10+ years seriously threatened my families way of life.

Do you mind elaborating on that? I am really interested in hearing what they did that was threatening their way of life.

really go try live in a red dominated thai village in last few years before coup and you'll learn a lot. Relatives beaten up because they would not cow tow totally to head of village red shirt thug. Our sons intimidated so we felt we could not have them visit our home and used our holiday home. People like you have no idea and yes were lucky enough to have enough to not let red shirt scum in our village have their way and ours the only house without a taksin or red shirt poster on our gate so what happens car keyed tires spiked and large fireworks pointed at our roof. Had to get 3 large Dobermans to feel safe. Thugs and cowards all of then. Now all smiles to us all red shirt flags gone and Taksin posters gone. Cowardly bastards every one of them.

But people like you will deny holocost I'm sure and think Hitler was a great socialist and yes another dictator who caused real death of many of my family in WW2 and no I'm not a jew in fact I've worked with many displaced Palestinians and what jews have done to Palestinians is unforgivable

now sorry just #@@#$% off before you really make me get cross with naive people like u

If you rant and slag people off in real life the way you do on here, it is no wonder you get yourself into trouble with others. Could it be that part of the problem is you?

[oneday]

Clearly, this article was written by someone who does not understand Thailand.

Yes, in other countries water will always flow downhill.

But Thailand is special.

Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put THEIR interests above the poor people of this country. Not on your life is that ever going to happen.

This is a class society and the people at the top want it to stay that way so they are kow-tow'd to and always have lower classes to serve them at below poverty wages...to serve them in their homes, to serve them in their factories and to grow their food for them on the rice farms in ISSAN.

You will never see them pushing for electricity in all villages, universal garbage picked at every home in Thailand and more roads so people can easily get to their homes without having to drive over and through potholes the size of a cow.

Thailand talks a good game of loving it's people, but the people at the top only love themselves and could care less about those beneath them.

What this country needs is true Democracy which is enforced and believed in, but it's now apparent this is never going to happen.

"Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put THEIR interests above the poor people of this country. Not on your life is that ever going to happen."

Huh? I think you got that wrong! I think what you possibly meant to say was as follows:-

"Do you people really think a country run by a Thai elite, defined as rich, privileged and entitled would put

the interests of the poor people of this country above THEIR interests. Not on your life is that ever going to happen."

And by the way, I agree with the rest of your post!

You are absolutely correct. Thank you for catching that.

[JAG]

Why has military rule never worked, in no country?

One reason - obviously - is that usually the military is not concerned about the well being of the country, they only want to protect certain groups, and that can not last forever.

But there are military regimes that honestly mean well, they believe they are saving their country, for the benefit of all.

And yet they too mess up. Why?

Army commanders have a special way of thinking: "when an order is given, it will be executed", and if not, the people responsible for the non complying will be dealt with. Result: at the worst, a short delay (and some dead bodies).

But that is not how human society works.

f ex try to tell lottery sellers to.... euh.... and so on

Or tell business people and workers to put the interests of the country first.

Or even: Return to traditional values! That's an order!

OK, I admit that my examples are a little bit far fetched, I am exaggerating to make my point.

In Greece, Patakos was a fine example of this. He actually went to Athens university to confront the rebellious students, convinced as he was, that he could explain.... And then there was The Genius of The Karpat Mountains, who was laughed away while delivering a speech, holding his scepter, the look on his face was priceless.... Or The Shah, in his interview with Frost, with the same "how-can-they-do-this-to-me" face. The last 2 were not generals, but same style of thinking.

I hate politicians. All of them, the lot. But the military is not an improvement.

If we start thinking from there, maybe we will get somewhere.

In a few hundred years perhaps?

Your comment on Army commanders is spot on. I have worked on a few maintenance contracts on UK military bases over the years and the incompetence of the military is staggering. If the public were aware of the waste of their taxes they would be horrified. Almost every military procurement contract is way over budget and late. Most of these guys wouldn't last in civilian life as they would be sacked, but in the military they get promoted.

I am talking about the ranking officers who actually run things. I believe Lions led by Donkeys was a phrase once coined to describe it.

In the UK the vast majority of the procurement process is controlled by the Civil Service, not the military.

Serving military personnel present requests for new equipment, and test and assess the prototypes. Budgets, letting of contracts and the rest of the procurement process is in the hands of Civil Servants.

That said, when the new rifle was introduced around 1990 it was promptly nicknamed the "Civil Servant", because it didn't work and you couldn't fire it!

Anyway, back to the topic....

[tbthailand]

Folks you have to let it go. I am taking about the anti junta fervour that some of you cling to. We need the junta....that's right we need them. Without the junta the country would have been plunged into a civil war last year. Now we have stability.....and I do know it's not democracy. OK, it's transition period if it's anything but it's not all bad. The people can go about their business as usual, have fun as usual and travel around the country from province to province.

I don't see a comparison to the likes of Castro, Mugabe or Pinochet. The junta may take a few troublemakers makers off the street for attitude adjustment, who are not your average mum and dad Thai's BTW, and aren't they usually the type of people who would be in need of attitude adjustment anyway? They sure seem to be the types that would be up to devious deeds!

So as foreigner's we need not be concerned....unless the junta decides to expell us....then we worry!

For me expulsion see's me living in Laos because the wife has family there.....and holly cr@p, Los is a communist country! I wonder if that will be better or worse???

the country was not going to plunge into civil war last year.

as for taking "troublemakers" off the street who are not your average mum and dad, you must not mean that guy they keep rounding up for walking, right? The guy who is just an average dad and had his average kid killed by the military - you don't mean him, right?

we don't need the junta. period.

[nidieunimaitre]

19th century in Belgium, by James Ensor. ("doctrinal nourishment", or how the LOSO are indoctrinated by the HISO)

Not very different from 21th century in Thailand

http://jamesensor.vlaamsekunstcollectie.be/en/collection/doctrinal-nourishment

[Expat1]

This is a tough one. In some places full democracy just does not function. Something has to be done to stop future politicians purchasing half the countryside for their votes to maintain their power which is what has been happening in the recent past. How to do that and be fair and equitable to all? Where is that guy Solomon?

The western countries have not fully figured all of this out yet so I don't know how these people are going to succeed at it in such a short time. It is trial and error for a while more it seems. Of course, there is no changing the fact that those with power are not going to give it up willingly, no one here has so far that I have witnessed. So it is going to be the same business as usual and make the best compromise deal you can get at the time.

[gemguy]

Folks you have to let it go. I am taking about the anti junta fervour that some of you cling to. We need the junta....that's right we need them. Without the junta the country would have been plunged into a civil war last year. Now we have stability.....and I do know it's not democracy. OK, it's transition period if it's anything but it's not all bad. The people can go about their business as usual, have fun as usual and travel around the country from province to province.

I don't see a comparison to the likes of Castro, Mugabe or Pinochet. The junta may take a few troublemakers makers off the street for attitude adjustment, who are not your average mum and dad Thai's BTW, and aren't they usually the type of people who would be in need of attitude adjustment anyway? They sure seem to be the types that would be up to devious deeds!

So as foreigner's we need not be concerned....unless the junta decides to expell us....then we worry!

For me expulsion see's me living in Laos because the wife has family there.....and holly cr@p, Los is a communist country! I wonder if that will be better or worse???

The civil war argument. Probably the worst of all the arguments. If you would only look beyond what was fed to you by the nation at the time, and spent a little time doing some analysis and comparison with previous coups, you would see that the "crisis" was a series of manufactured events. Create fear and then take that fear away, and it is amazing how people will throw away their rights for that perceived security.

How true....as that is what the Military establishment and the behind the scenes entities have always done so well.....that being....manipulate and create a political situation and the need for intervention on their part ...to save the country from itself...while creating an air of paternal benevolence played on their part......but really they are repositioning themselves to keep the real power and sustain the status quo while the illusion of democratic values are sustained.

Cheers

[longway]

There is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time.....

Yes, we all agree that politicians tend to mess up things.

Yes, it is often said "that the army had to step in to clean up the mess that politicians made".

Yes, that sounds rather reasonable.

But here is my question:

Do you know of 1 example, anywhere in the world, in any time of history, where the army actually cleaned up the mess?

Surely not Galtieri, Jaruzelski, Patakos, Franco, Salazar, Benito, Othello de Carvalho, Pinochet, Yazov, Mobutu, - I hope I have covered all tendancies.

As a matter of fact, I remember that after the "clean up", the politicians had to come back to clean upthe even bigger mess.

So, any enlightening examples?

South Korea

[outre99]

I've repeatedly argued on this forum over the last 10 years that Thailand should follow Singaporean example rather than the Western one. A healthy democracy in a complex society requires informed and engaged citizenry (US presents a good example what happens in a democracy when the majority of the electorate stop participating or caring). Otherwise the democratic ritual is all too easy to hijack with enough money and propaganda. Shinawatras have demonstrated that splendidly.

At this point in its history Thailand needs an enlightened dictatorship that installs a government of technocrats who are charged to execute a difficult long term strategy to bring the country out of the third world status.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia's history of Singapore:

"Facing severe unemployment and a housing crisis, Singapore embarked on a modernization programme beginning in the late 1960s through the 1970s that focused on establishing a manufacturing industry, developing large public housing estates and investing heavily on public education. Since independence, Singapore's economy has grown by an average of nine percent each year.[clarification needed] By the 1990s, the country had become one of the world's most prosperous nations, with a highly developed free market economy, strong international trading links, and the highest per capita gross domestic product in Asia outside of Japan.

After gaining independence abruptly, Singapore faced a future filled with uncertainties. The Konfrontasi was on-going and the conservative UMNO faction strongly opposed the separation; Singapore faced the dangers of attack by the Indonesian military and forcible re-integration into the Malaysia Federation on unfavorable terms. Much of the international media was skeptical of prospects for Singapore's survival. Besides the issue of sovereignty, the pressing problems were unemployment, housing, education, and the lack of natural resources and land.[53] Unemployment was ranging between 10–12%, threatening to trigger civil unrest.

The Economic Development Board had been set up in 1961 to formulate and implement national economic strategies, focusing on promoting Singapore's manufacturing sector.[56] Industrial estates were set up, especially in Jurong, and foreign investment was attracted to the country with tax incentives. The industrialization transformed the manufacturing sector to one that produced higher value-added goods and achieved greater revenue. The service industry also grew at this time, driven by demand for services by ships calling at the port and increasing commerce. This progress helped to alleviate the unemployment crisis. Singapore also attracted big oil companies like Shell and Esso to establish oil refineries in Singapore which, by the mid-1970s, became the third largest oil-refining centre in the world.[53] The government invested heavily in an education system that adopted English as the language of instruction and emphasised practical training to develop a competent workforce well suited for the industry."

This is very recent history and sounds a lot worse than the current situation in Thailand. But look where they are right now. Singapore's success required a long term vision and discipline to pursue that vision over decades. Lee Kuan Yew and his PAP party created a de-facto single party system which alowed them to focus on the big picture rather than being distracted by political pandering and self-defeating populism. Industrialization, infrastructure, education, housing, foreign investment, rule of law all have been accomplished since 1965.

Of course Singapore is a much smaller place, on the other hand Thailand has abundance of natural resources, pretty good infrastructure, and many other advantages. More importantly Thai nationalism runs strong at all levels of Thai society. This is a perfect lever to create public commitment to the grand vision that the government should create and execute. It is doable with enough will and foresight. Whether the generals have either is much more important for the future of the country.

[city]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

Lost for words...what garbage

[Fat Haggis]

How is that possible that you've been arguing for the last 10 years when you've not been a member for the past 10 years?

80 posts in 10 years doesn't really sound like a good case for repeatedly arguing over the Singapore model

I happen to agree with you however.

[outre99]

How is that possible that you've been arguing for the last 10 years when you've not been a member for the past 10 years?

80 posts in 10 years doesn't really sound like a good case for repeatedly arguing over the Singapore model

I happen to agree with you however.

thanks for the voice of support.

i subscribe to quality over quantity. i've arrived in Thailand in the fall of 2005, so technically it's just under 10 years, but i think it's close enough.

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[ourmanflint]

Democracy as we accept it in the west is not the only way. Why should it be? The west wants all countries to be democratic the western way for one reason only, so they can exploit them, rape and pillage their countries for profit and generally stomp around telling them how to do things. Poorer countries do not need that, they need benevolent dictators whose presence negates the western stance. Globalization and the push for democracy in many countries was instigated by Wall st and the benefits of which go directly to Wall St.